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The scans are in the draft page
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General DC Comics Discussion Thread
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The Orrery and Bleed would be 2-C. Hypertime would be 2-A. The Sphere of the Gods, Monitor Sphere, Fifth Dimension and Sixth Dimension would be Low 1-C. The Unseen Council would be 1-C. The Light of Creation and Great Darkness would be 1-C.
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For 2-C, how many universes for each? For Tier 1, what dimensionality for each?
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Number of Universes
As seen below, the number of universes was infinite before the Crisis on Infinite Earths which reduced it to a singular universe until the Infinite Crisis which brought back the multiverse with a set number of fifty-two universes occupying the same space at different frequencies, but there could be more with the discovery of the 53rd universe. Here are Kendra Saunders' own words after studying the multiverse map: "We know of fifty-two, we believe it to be the set number." She talks about known universes, suggesting that there may indeed be more universes unknown to anyone in the multiverse that may or may not be separate possibilities stored somewhere in Hypertime.
Geometric and Temporal Dimensions
As for the geometric and temporal dimensions, the multiverse is described as having a 4-D space-time continuum. This was the case for Grant Morrison's approach on the DC Cosmology that was later adopted by Scott Snyder, as evidenced in his Justice League run. In Mr. Mxyzptlk's own words: "The multiverse, as you live it, puny heads, exists in four dimensions..." He explained to the Justice League that they experiences the first four dimensions which, in Snyder's words, are point, line, depth, and time.
The Bleed
The interdimensional between universes. It was described as the substance of life where the House of Heroes rotates through the fifth-dimensional axis in a fixed point in the multiversal structure of the Orrery of Worlds. Four siphons have been drilled in from the Monitor Sphere to the Orrery, to permit harvest of the miracle Ultramenstruum, known also known as Bleed, from the universes of the multiverse, that the Monitors refer to as 'germ worlds.'
Morrison's Final Crisis: Superman Beyond depicts the Bleed to exist in 4-D. These are Monitor Zillo Valla's own words: "We'll traveling through the Bleedstorm space between the universes... But you'll need to upgrade to 4-D vision to truly comprehend what you experience."
Sphere of the Gods
An archetypal realm outside of corporeal reality, at the edge of the multiverse, and the homeworld of all gods, deities and magic. Although the inhabitants of the Sphere of the Gods exist on a higher plane of existence than those of the Orrery of Worlds, they exist in 4-D.
To summarize, the local multiverse is 2-C. There are 52 universes, each existing in 3-D and when you leave them you enter the 4-D Bleed between and around the universes. Every other universe whose exact number is infinite are stored in Hypertime which exists outside of the local multiverse.
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In the 2021 finale of Death Metal, the multiverse was restored by the Hands and Earth-0 along with the other universes from the local multiverse were brought back with not only new universes emerging, but also a network of infinite multiverses, becoming its own sort of Omniverse within the Greater Omniverse. Earth-Omega and Elseworld are the two new centers of the new configuration of the multiverse and as Hypertime healed, people had flashes of a myriad of alternative futures and pasts. The Dark Multiverse is still beneath reality.
In Flashpoint Beyond, we've learned that the Omniverse was the Space aspect of the Divine Continuum which integrate the multiverse, the Sphere of the Gods, the Dark Multiverse, the Metaverse, while Hypertime was the Time aspect which integrate Limbo and the Vanishing Point.
This configuration of reality is solid 2-A, but no one has been shown to scale to it, except the Great Darkness.
In Flashpoint Beyond, we've learned that the Omniverse was the Space aspect of the Divine Continuum which integrate the multiverse, the Sphere of the Gods, the Dark Multiverse, the Metaverse, while Hypertime was the Time aspect which integrate Limbo and the Vanishing Point.
This configuration of reality is solid 2-A, but no one has been shown to scale to it, except the Great Darkness.
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Sphere of the Gods
An archetypal realm outside of corporeal reality, at the edge of the multiverse, and the homeworld of all gods and deities worshiped by mortals. As the resident of the Orrery exists in 3-D, the resident of the Sphere of the Gods exists in 4-D.
An archetypal realm outside of corporeal reality, at the edge of the multiverse, and the homeworld of all gods and deities worshiped by mortals. As the resident of the Orrery exists in 3-D, the resident of the Sphere of the Gods exists in 4-D.
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I believe the Source does as well. In John Stewart The Emerald Knight, it's stated that the Source in like an ocean while the universes and multiverses are like rivers flowing from it. The branching streams of those rivers are hypertime. With that in mind, I would suggest taking a look at Green Lantern runs, post Death Metal, first before finishing. I don't mean this in a rude way. It's mostly because the Source has a lot of info in those runs.
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I did but it was a long time ago but I think it's just a way of saying that Source encompasses all universes and multiverses, being all born from its energies and shaped by the Hands.
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Possibly. The comic however did release in 2022 after Dark Crisis and Flashpoint Beyond. It's pretty recent. That's all I wanted to mention though. In case there was more information needed.
Ped2018
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He summed it up perfectly but what is this supposed to entail? The Source scales beyond everything and that specific author has stated before he said even the Darkness was born of the Source.
I don't believe the Darkness is near the Presence in power much less the Source. So Source scales to anything that the Darkness scales to.
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I read the Green Lantern story and it says that the Source emerged in the Darkness. Other than that, yes, the Source scales above everything and everyone in the cosmology, except the Great Darkness.
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Regardless, the Crisis Cosmology page does not contain the Elemental Realms, the Lord of Order and Chaos, and the Ascended Beings. Can one of you help me? And what do you think of the Godsphere inhabitants existing in 4-D? Should we add the information regarding the Source and Hypertime presented in the Green Lantern story? @VeryGoofyToddler you are welcome to help if you wish.
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I do not know. Hypertime does not seem to create stable universes, just temporary aberrations in storytelling continuity that are then ignored by other writers/absorbed into the main universal timelines.
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It wasn't created in the Dark. It's from the Dark that it manifested. For how the Darkness as a state of existence isn't created but the Darkness as a being was only defined after it was contrasted by the Light. They just gave God a face thus the gods dreamed of their depiction of a higher force as did the humans to gods. What they comprehended was the Source and it manifested from the Dark, was not created.
Besides older =/= more powerful. Each one didn't make the other. Like God from Matteis Cosmology didn't create the Sea of Brahma since his extension of everything split into nothing that expanded ad infinituim and thus became the sea of nothing before the Love Sea. Not created but an aspect thus part of it. That's what I depict Throne idea was Dark/Darkness is part of it, the unmanifest version of the Source.
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They're not 4D. Even if they were that applies specifically to either avatars or just the resident when entering lower dimension. Since there still is space-time within individual universes.Regardless, the Crisis Cosmology page does not contain the Elemental Realms, the Lord of Order and Chaos, and the Ascended Beings. Can one of you help me? And what do you think of the Godsphere inhabitants existing in 4-D? Should we add the information regarding the Source and Hypertime presented in the Green Lantern story? @VeryGoofyToddler you are welcome to help if you wish.
Elizio33/Sandbox9
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Maybe the true forms/state of the inhabitants of the Sphere of the Gods are 4-D, but not their avatars within the universes.
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All of these weren't even mentioned or implied in Grant Morrison, Scott Snyder, James Tynion, and Joshua Williamson's vision of the DCU. Perhaps DeMatteis sees the Divine Presence as the entity that even defined the pre-creation void, aka Pralaya, and other writers like Mike Carey, Neil Gaiman, and Allen Moore seem to have the same view as DeMatteis, but this does not seem to be the case in modern stories of the four writers mentioned above.
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No, their individual forms within the lower worlds are 4D. While their higher form varies, we don't know the true limit to their dimensionality.
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It does. The Green Lantern scans do not imply it was created. It simply came from the Dark and the author of that same story mentions this. Even if we don't use his logic, it never said it was created in it.
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I didn't say it was created in the Darkness, I said it emerged in the Darkness.
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Okay, so should the tier for their higher forms vary from Low 2-C to Low 1-C?
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The context here within your draft implies it due to “it” predating the Presence thus predating the Source.
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No, unless we're upgrading the Sphere to Low 1-C. Since no gods scale to the entirety of the Sphere.
Excellence616
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Darkseid's abilities (Pre-Flashpoint)
Hey everyone, how about adding some new abilities for Darkseid based on the proofs given? Unfortunately, I don’t yet know the exact name of the abilities and their type on the site, so I will give a general category of abilities. Emanations: The emanations of the New Gods contain entire...
Excellence616
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DC Cosmology General Discussion
I made this thread just to discuss DC's cosmology in general, not to propose any changes, feel free to comment about any concerns, questions, or things of interest. https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/DC_Comics_Cosmology
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Green was mentioned quite a lot during Justice League Dark and Witching Hour.
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Well, in JL Dark, the Green said to be not a just place or a realm, nor it is merely imagination. It lies between idea and reality, where memory and consciousness of roots, stems, leaves and flowers exist outside of time and space. Throughout the story, the pillars, like the Green, have been shown to touch all realms, including the Other Place.
This is the only information I have.
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Excellence616
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Minor New 52 Superman addition
Superman is able to increase his capabilities beyond their standard levels by supercharging with excess solar radiation (Superman/Wonder Woman #2), which allows him to defeat stronger opponents like the Olympian God Apollo. higher when supercharged (Overpowered Apollo, who is stronger than...
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The War of Magic has gotten a lot of attention from the Parliament. So there are small nuances, if you want I'll help with scans.
Excellence616
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Yes if you don't mind
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You do have to realize that Tynion IV stopped writing the issues pretty early on and Ram V carried it with other collaborators. So would you count those?Yes if you don't mind
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I think so.
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The only thing we've seen is it's a realm that connects all parts mentioned in #23. It transformed by the will of Swamp Thing the entire Otherplace into the Green. That's all we get because it was replaced by the Parliaments of Flowers as the new “Green” with the Tree Parliaments being pretty much obselete.
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So what I posted earlier about the Green is the only relevant information about the Elemental Realms?
