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can't we add something like, "has the powers and abilities of lucifer, michael etc"?
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General DC Comics Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Confluctor
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i have seen a lot of profiles that do that
take amazo for example
A.M.A.Z.O. (DCAU)
A.M.A.Z.O. is the nanotechnological creation of the late Professor Ivo. His unique structure allows him to imitate almost any ability or skill with a glance, making him a powerful foe to the Justice League until he was convinced to leave Earth and search for a purpose in life. He returned more...
vsbattles.fandom.com
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We should revert back to the two split profiles for the Presence: Yahweh and Divine Presence.
Despite them both being the “Presence” there clearly are differences. If Sandman: Overture statement that the Void is simply in the mind of God then the argument can be made, that they both are but other than that they are different.
Despite them both being the “Presence” there clearly are differences. If Sandman: Overture statement that the Void is simply in the mind of God then the argument can be made, that they both are but other than that they are different.
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Its always has been accepted to split them tho
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But the profile looks either merged or the separate keys were removed.
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I agree with this, but I would suggest a whole separate page entirely for the Divine Presence vs a key on the main one. There's enough difference between the DeMatteis version to warrant it. Especially since his version dates all the way back to the 80s (I, Vampire) and runs all the way to 2015. Either way, I think it's a good idea to separate the 3 versions to be consistent with the fact that the cosmology is split and they're not the same.
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We can still connect some ideas but you're not wrong that there are enough ideas to separate the two entiertly.
Deleted member 30746
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Since we have separated the cosmologies, Yahweh and the Divine Presence must have completely separate pages.
Apart from this, Elaine's profile says outerverse in the "godhood" key in the durability category. Must have been forgotten.
Additionally, all DC characters with Aca5 will have this ability removed from their profiles. (I think it's very wrong) Some of them have been changed, but there are still profiles that have not been changed.
Apart from this, Elaine's profile says outerverse in the "godhood" key in the durability category. Must have been forgotten.
Additionally, all DC characters with Aca5 will have this ability removed from their profiles. (I think it's very wrong) Some of them have been changed, but there are still profiles that have not been changed.
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IdiosyncraticLawyer
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How about this?
- Merge Monitor-Mind the Overvoid, the Presence, and the Source into one page for the Light from the crisis cosmology.
- Make two separate profiles for DeMattis's DP and Vertigo's Presence.
Deleted member 30746
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This seems the most logical.
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This seems logical
IdiosyncraticLawyer
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Joke Battles
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Do it, then.
Deleted member 30746
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Please handle the Elaine issue.
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First of all, I still need help with grammar and spelling for the Crisis Cosmology draft page so we can apply it in our official DC Cosmology page.
IdiosyncraticLawyer
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Done.
Elaine Belloc
Elaine Belloc is a fictional character in the DC/Vertigo Comics series Lucifer created by Mike Carey. Elaine was created by Carey specifically for the Lucifer series, and her character is that of a young girl with special powers who encounters Lucifer and takes part in the adventures and battles...
vsbattles.fandom.com
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This seems fine to me as well.
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This also seems fine to me.
Thank you for helping out.Done.
Elaine Belloc
Elaine Belloc is a fictional character in the DC/Vertigo Comics series Lucifer created by Mike Carey. Elaine was created by Carey specifically for the Lucifer series, and her character is that of a young girl with special powers who encounters Lucifer and takes part in the adventures and battles...
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I repost the link for the draft page of the Crisis Cosmology: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User:Elizio33/Sandbox9
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This isn't necessarily true. We can also do keys for different cosmologies. I think that would likely be prudent here. Also, is the Presence directly called Yahweh in Vertigo or is that just something we do because he's the most intuitively Christian version of the Presence?
Excellence616
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This make sense
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I think, if I remember correctly, that the Presence was called Yahweh in Vertigo.
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It seems good to me, but is somebody willing to help improve on the word flow, spelling, and grammar please?
@Firestorm808 @Deagonx
What do you think?
That solution also works for me.
I think that he was called Yahweh during Mike Carey's Lucifer comic book run.
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Unfortunately at the moment I don't have a lot of bandwidth to go over things, I am keeping my wiki activity relatively limited at the moment while I am dealing with IRL stuff.
Gotcha. My preference would be to avoid calling him Yahweh in our profiles since he isn't called it very often.
IdiosyncraticLawyer
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I'll do that in a moment.
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I say this because these views of God differ enormously.
Yahweh is a Judeo-Christian-based sub-aspect of God shaped according to people's dreams. Presence is its more general state. Since he goes by Yahweh, we need to use the name Yahweh in his profile. Or we can create profile as God (Vertigo), it's up to you.
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Can you show me some scans of him being referred to as Yahweh? It's been a while since I read through Sandman and Lucifer (2000) but I genuinely don't remember that being a thing.
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Here’s a random example I had saved from the titan arc. if need be I can gather more.
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No need, that's what I was looking for. I must've brain dumped this. Thank you.
Deleted member 30746
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In the Lucifer series, God is also referred to as the Divine Presence. Even though it's not a reference to DeMatteis' God, it's still the case.
IdiosyncraticLawyer
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I'm done removing Acausality Type 5 from DC profiles.
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These are from the draft page of the Crisis Cosmology.
Creation Origins
Before creation, it was said that there was only a Great Darkness; a single black infinitude where nothing and everything were the same thing. From the darkness came a burning light that would later be known as the Source or the Presence. As the light grew, everything was no longer nothing and the darkness screamed, causing an imperceptible flaw in what was once the immaculate perfection of the light. In that moment, the multiverse was born, shaped by Perpetua using the eneries of the Source and created her children -- the Monitor, the Anti-Monitor, and the World Forger -- to manage the different aspects of her new reality.
At this point, Perpetua had fulfilled her duty and was meant to die and allow her essence to return to the Source but she refused and defied her function. She began experimenting on the mortals at the center of her multiverse, transforming them into the Apex Predators, planning to create an army of immortal beings to repel anything the Source would send to force her to give up her life and control over reality. Her plans were thwarted by her children who alerted her superiors, the Judges of the Source, who sent the tremendous energy needed to imprison Perpetua, her army and her power in the Source Wall, forced to watch her multiverse grow anew without her taint. This became known as the myth of the perpetual and predatory multiverse that existed before the current multiverse.
Greater Omniverse, Shores of Judgment, Unseen Council
Throughout the Overvoid, there are an infinite number of multiverses that rise and fall, created by super-celestial beings like Perpetua constituting a Greater Omniverse. The Chronicler, an omniversal functionary, has stated that his Codex Omniversa carries the history of trillions of dead multiverses. Although said to be infinite, the presence of the Shores of Judgment or the Banks of Creation, where the Hands reside, as the end of the void contradicts this.
Although vaguely described, the Shores of Judgment, used interchangeably with the Banks of Creation, is where the Hands reside and where the void ends according to Perpetua. It was also said that the original multiverse was flying through the void to an unknown destination, awaiting the final judgement. This is echoed by Alpheus who stated that when a Multiverse breaks apart before its final evolution, it's sent back to the banks of creation which it was created by super-celestial beings like Perpetua.
The "Unseen Council" was the name used by Scott Snyder to describes a hierarchy that eventually reaches the Source. Beings like Perpetua are meant to ascend with the other beings of this hierarchy once their function is fulfilled. Notable parts of this hierarchy are the Judges of the Source who oversee and judge the various multiverse in the Greater Omniverse, although they were used interchangeably with the Hands during Snyder's Justice League and Death Metal. Each member of the hierarchy being qualitatively superior to the multiverses, making themselves "visible" to lesser beings.
Source/Overvoid/Presence = Light of Creation
Although commonly associated with different parts of the DC cosmology, these various entities were often been used interchangeably over the years. A few years earlier, Morrison had directly stated that the Overvoid and the Source were the same, as Snyder did with the Presence and the Source and more recently the Overvoid and the Presence, all associated with the Godhead that Joshua Williamson referred to as the Light of Creation.
One God, all three being viewpoints or potentially emanations of the same whole, existing as superior to the Greater Omniverse and the Unseen Council, just referred to in a different way. The Light of Creation has appeared in various aspects to lesser beings, but is in reality a vast non-dual void from which the multiverses have grown and beings like Perpetua return once their purpose is fulfilled to ascend with the other beings of the Unseen Council.
Great Darkness
In the prelude to 2022 Dark Crisis, Joshua Williamson integrated a very old concept with a more modern concept -- that of the Great Darkness seen in Alan Moore's celebrated Swamp Thing run, and the Overvoid created by Grant Morrison. Williamson specifically references the original Great Darkness storyline from Moore's Swamp Thing, when Zatara died, and adjusted it to what Grant Morrison and Scott Snyder have architected over the years for DC continuity.
Those who have read issues 49 and 50 of Swamp Thing Vol 2 will remember that the Great Darkness was the opposite of God who existed before the first light came into existence. Translating this into modern cosmology, the Great Darkness would have existed before the Presence, which is exactly what Williamson did when he brought the Great Darkness back as the black void where the first star was born in defiance of what it is and has grown.
The Great Darkness is also synonymous with/contains the Shadowlands which individuals like Alan Scott and Obsidian have ties to, and has various avatars and aspects like Darkseid or Empty Hand, but is not a force of good or evil, with no wants or needs, any more than the night sky or our own shadows. It just sits in the black for eternity, watching everything as a flicker of light waiting to be extinguished by itself.
Creation Origins
Before creation, it was said that there was only a Great Darkness; a single black infinitude where nothing and everything were the same thing. From the darkness came a burning light that would later be known as the Source or the Presence. As the light grew, everything was no longer nothing and the darkness screamed, causing an imperceptible flaw in what was once the immaculate perfection of the light. In that moment, the multiverse was born, shaped by Perpetua using the eneries of the Source and created her children -- the Monitor, the Anti-Monitor, and the World Forger -- to manage the different aspects of her new reality.
At this point, Perpetua had fulfilled her duty and was meant to die and allow her essence to return to the Source but she refused and defied her function. She began experimenting on the mortals at the center of her multiverse, transforming them into the Apex Predators, planning to create an army of immortal beings to repel anything the Source would send to force her to give up her life and control over reality. Her plans were thwarted by her children who alerted her superiors, the Judges of the Source, who sent the tremendous energy needed to imprison Perpetua, her army and her power in the Source Wall, forced to watch her multiverse grow anew without her taint. This became known as the myth of the perpetual and predatory multiverse that existed before the current multiverse.
Greater Omniverse, Shores of Judgment, Unseen Council
Throughout the Overvoid, there are an infinite number of multiverses that rise and fall, created by super-celestial beings like Perpetua constituting a Greater Omniverse. The Chronicler, an omniversal functionary, has stated that his Codex Omniversa carries the history of trillions of dead multiverses. Although said to be infinite, the presence of the Shores of Judgment or the Banks of Creation, where the Hands reside, as the end of the void contradicts this.
Although vaguely described, the Shores of Judgment, used interchangeably with the Banks of Creation, is where the Hands reside and where the void ends according to Perpetua. It was also said that the original multiverse was flying through the void to an unknown destination, awaiting the final judgement. This is echoed by Alpheus who stated that when a Multiverse breaks apart before its final evolution, it's sent back to the banks of creation which it was created by super-celestial beings like Perpetua.
The "Unseen Council" was the name used by Scott Snyder to describes a hierarchy that eventually reaches the Source. Beings like Perpetua are meant to ascend with the other beings of this hierarchy once their function is fulfilled. Notable parts of this hierarchy are the Judges of the Source who oversee and judge the various multiverse in the Greater Omniverse, although they were used interchangeably with the Hands during Snyder's Justice League and Death Metal. Each member of the hierarchy being qualitatively superior to the multiverses, making themselves "visible" to lesser beings.
Source/Overvoid/Presence = Light of Creation
Although commonly associated with different parts of the DC cosmology, these various entities were often been used interchangeably over the years. A few years earlier, Morrison had directly stated that the Overvoid and the Source were the same, as Snyder did with the Presence and the Source and more recently the Overvoid and the Presence, all associated with the Godhead that Joshua Williamson referred to as the Light of Creation.
One God, all three being viewpoints or potentially emanations of the same whole, existing as superior to the Greater Omniverse and the Unseen Council, just referred to in a different way. The Light of Creation has appeared in various aspects to lesser beings, but is in reality a vast non-dual void from which the multiverses have grown and beings like Perpetua return once their purpose is fulfilled to ascend with the other beings of the Unseen Council.
Great Darkness
In the prelude to 2022 Dark Crisis, Joshua Williamson integrated a very old concept with a more modern concept -- that of the Great Darkness seen in Alan Moore's celebrated Swamp Thing run, and the Overvoid created by Grant Morrison. Williamson specifically references the original Great Darkness storyline from Moore's Swamp Thing, when Zatara died, and adjusted it to what Grant Morrison and Scott Snyder have architected over the years for DC continuity.
Those who have read issues 49 and 50 of Swamp Thing Vol 2 will remember that the Great Darkness was the opposite of God who existed before the first light came into existence. Translating this into modern cosmology, the Great Darkness would have existed before the Presence, which is exactly what Williamson did when he brought the Great Darkness back as the black void where the first star was born in defiance of what it is and has grown.
The Great Darkness is also synonymous with/contains the Shadowlands which individuals like Alan Scott and Obsidian have ties to, and has various avatars and aspects like Darkseid or Empty Hand, but is not a force of good or evil, with no wants or needs, any more than the night sky or our own shadows. It just sits in the black for eternity, watching everything as a flicker of light waiting to be extinguished by itself.
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Vertigo touches on the various aspects of the Presence such as Logos(Voice/Word), Primum Mobile(Throne of Light - Presence), and Yahweh(God of Covenant/Lord of Hosts).
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Matteis uses Divine Presence and Presence as the same thing. Like how you can call the Creator “divine” but it doesn't really change the meaning.
He only used it twice during Spectre and Phantom Stranger. I don't believe Carey nor Gaiman ever used “Divine Presence.” He certainly has been called the Presence multiple times with honor and everyone else familiar with him refers to him as Yahweh.
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I have a question? why is emperor joker listed as 2-C? I was going through his rating and the justification was that he warped the sphere of the gods but the sphere of the gods profile states it is Low 1-C?
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Deleted member 30746
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The Presence and Divine Presence emphasize the same thing, yes I know that. What I really want to say is that when Mike talks about God, he names it according to the situation. Light, voice, presence etc.
He does not use The Presence as a personal name, but rather emphasizes his presence.
Here is a scan of Divine Presence from the Lucifer series. It is clear that it is used here to glorify God.
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You as well, @Alonik .
