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The scan link was incorrect, I fixed it now.
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General DC Comics Discussion Thread
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Ah, yes that scan but they aren't meant to denote anything. There's no difference between Presence and Divine Presence as you mentioned but Matteis's version of God isn't one and the same with Carey/Gaiman.
The point was Divine Presence was used to describe a title or entity. While Lucifer's scans depict his “holy presence” because they were in it. It's more of an adjective than a proper noun.
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I disagree with the Great Darkness predating the Presence. There's no real scan or implication for this.
For one, the Darkness is contrasted by Light before it was formless, without consciousness, and without name. It was simply “dark and cold.”
The Presence/Source shouldn't be used interchangeably with Light. It seems more so the Light is an aspect. Given the Right Hand eventually broke off from the Darkness and became the Empty Hand.
Sort of like how Pralaya existed before the Creator but she in turn is part of the One True Creator as both those are an aspect of God (Pralaya and the Creator).
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I think the fact that all three entities are viewpoints of the Light makes sense because Williamson integrated the "Light of Creation" and associated it with the origins of the Overvoid, which Morrison declared to be the same as the Source a few years earlier.
The Light of Creation is also identified as the hand featured in Moore's Swamp Thing. The hand of the Presence is that of the Light as the story clearly shows.
Literally a year earlier, the Presence and the Source were assumed to be the same, as Snyder's Death Metal shows a comma between "the Presence, of the Source", which Snyder later confirmed to be the case.
Additionally, DC's recent guidebook: The DC Book: A Vast and Vibrant Multiverse Simply Explained describes the Presence to be in charge of the Hands featured in Snyder's stories.
The three entities were clearly used interchangeably over the years and Williamson simply associated the whole as the Light of Creation and did a pretty good job as well.
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That's an interview and not written in the comics. His not bound to what the comics say because his free to express ideas that were not implemented in the comics.
That's just a fan theory to connect who “God/Unknowbale” is.
He expressed the Presence in JSA and Final Revelation as creator of the Material and Heaven. That his form manifested from nothing. No reason to believe he is the Overvoid.
Like how Empty Hand is his “right hand” which is made to be filled and make deals. It's metaphorical, not literal. Like how the Dog we see in Trinity of Sins is an aspect of the Voice, which is an aspect of God.
Overvoid wasn't. It was just treated as space similar, if not synonymous to the Greater Omniverse.
Yeah, but Snyder didn't write that. That's just summing up what we already know. Doesn't mention anything of the Overvoid even being sentient other than being all-consuming.
No, they weren't. Source and Presence certainly have an impact on what's been printed. Light has never been mentioned to be the entirety of the Presence. DC Guide Book listed the Presence as the fountain head of all Existence surpassing even the Source. In actual comics, it just said Light came at some point. It never said it was God/Presence and probably is of it, not is it.
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I agree.
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I've read it in detail. That's more speculation than anything. I don't see how they were used interchangeably. The Presence and Source most definitely but that's where it ends. The Light and Overvoid are different matters.
Excellence616
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DC dimensions
Hello there How about accepting infinite/any number of coordinates/spatial dimensions in the dc universe It's like Earths out of phase with it dragged back by her human children, who can only see it three-dimensionaly...
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The Source and the Overvoid were labelled as the white void outside creation in the map of the multiverse. And it doesn't matter if Snyder didn't write the guide since he already told us that the Presence and the Source are the same.
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The Map wasn't fully finished nor do we know much of what was being said. That version of the Source, as he mentioned specifically aligns with different views of the Unknowable. Meaning it was just another face of the same entity and that being the Overvoid or whatever it was before the Flaw as a state of Oneness, Unity, and Perfection.
Meaning anything applying to Overvoid applies to the Source. Yet in Metal, we see many differences and we don't see them being used interchangeably. I'm not on the idea these are the same beings unless we take Morrison's logic first before the others. I'm pretty sure they didn't discuss matters on the three aspects while collaborating given what we've seen.
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No. The Light was depicted as being the same as the Overvoid and the hand of the Light turned out to be that of the Presence we saw in Moore's Swamp which made a truce with the Great Darkness. The Empty Hand was formed after the conclusion of the truce. There is no speculation at this point, especially since there are evidences by stories and writers.
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When was that “hand” the entirety of the Presence? They just saw a hand reach from the Heaven and I'm not in the mindset, that Presence limits his entirety in one aspect.
As for your Empty Hand point, the jist of the argument was arguing for the nature of aspects in conjunction with their truer form. So your argument is not point-point solid and connects way too many empty threads.
Plus, Incarnate gives us the implication of the history. Which we see to be twisted and turned a bit and a bit false given Maya wasn't in her right mind when explaining it simply by possessing the Crack.
It should be more like this:
The Presence/Source(prior to any manifestation)
The Great Darkness(state of existence before manifestation).
Light of Creation/Overvoid
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Yes, that's not the point and I wasn't trying to be oblivious to ignore the final rendition. That's specifically how Morrison views it and given his idea that the Overvoid isn't predated goes against the idea of what Willaimson has added with the Great Darkness.
Not to mention other than the Map, there's no clear pinpoint reason to suggest that they are the same for everyone else. What I've seen is just that one fan theory with the fake tweet to connect the idea that they are all the same and Death Metal saying Presence = Source and people go crazy to reconnect the idea that “Unknowable” is the Presence when Morrison already depicted where he made the Presence.
Collaborator or not in some part, it's not mentioned again that the Overvoid is the Source. They pretty much make the Overvoid just a vast space then eventually a state of existence of immaculate perfection before the Flaw. How can it be non-dual if it were light to be contrasted by darkness?
Still a fan theory and makes no sense why we even merged them.
Morrison should be a standalone with his previous works. While Snyder/Tynion/Williamson can be merged. There are too many variables with Morrison to make sense of the others. Being a collaborator in some aspect means little since, in the end, it's not his ideas being the main focal point. I don't think Morrison is hard to work with to let others fill in his ideas.
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I don't think incorporating Morrison's old 90s comics is the best move, especially since Snyder and Williamson are largely based on Morrison's mid-2000s work and are largely in unity with them. I think merging it to a Crisis Cosmology that uses the unified approach from Williamson makes the most sense, as it resolves a lot of the complications and vagueness around the relationship between those three beings.
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After re-reading the blog, why the Sphere of the Gods isn't qualitatively superior to the Orrery? What's the evidence? I don't remember why we listed it as 2-C.
Also. Hypertime should be above the Sphere of the Gods, between the Sphere of the Gods and Limbo.
Also. Hypertime should be above the Sphere of the Gods, between the Sphere of the Gods and Limbo.
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Okay makes sense.
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I wouldn't say it made it easier and resolved complications. It rather adds a new narrative to view it differently thus creating a new way of understanding which changes what the other has said.
Like, Metal, did undo a lot of understanding of Morrison. How, Dark Frontier, did a lot to Metal. Grant Morrison really is just the pioneer to have started it. His makes the least sense if we don't go by what he said first.
From what I've read about all of these creators work. Morrison's stand-alone is a lot better than an entire merged Cosmology.
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Sphere is. The residents of the Sphere are not. Hypertime should be listed just outside of Orrery. It's not transcended by the Sphere but how it functions with the timeline doesn't really concur with the higher aspect of the Multiverse.
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Not sure I understand what is being proposed.
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I just adjusted the descriptions.
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I'm lagging behind on the thread, so sorry if I missed anything.
Just reading the explanation I think it works. Probably needs scan justifications though.
IdiosyncraticLawyer
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The scans are in the draft page
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The Orrery and Bleed would be 2-C. Hypertime would be 2-A. The Sphere of the Gods, Monitor Sphere, Fifth Dimension and Sixth Dimension would be Low 1-C. The Unseen Council would be 1-C. The Light of Creation and Great Darkness would be 1-C.
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For 2-C, how many universes for each? For Tier 1, what dimensionality for each?
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Number of Universes
As seen below, the number of universes was infinite before the Crisis on Infinite Earths which reduced it to a singular universe until the Infinite Crisis which brought back the multiverse with a set number of fifty-two universes occupying the same space at different frequencies, but there could be more with the discovery of the 53rd universe. Here are Kendra Saunders' own words after studying the multiverse map: "We know of fifty-two, we believe it to be the set number." She talks about known universes, suggesting that there may indeed be more universes unknown to anyone in the multiverse that may or may not be separate possibilities stored somewhere in Hypertime.
Geometric and Temporal Dimensions
As for the geometric and temporal dimensions, the multiverse is described as having a 4-D space-time continuum. This was the case for Grant Morrison's approach on the DC Cosmology that was later adopted by Scott Snyder, as evidenced in his Justice League run. In Mr. Mxyzptlk's own words: "The multiverse, as you live it, puny heads, exists in four dimensions..." He explained to the Justice League that they experiences the first four dimensions which, in Snyder's words, are point, line, depth, and time.
The Bleed
The interdimensional between universes. It was described as the substance of life where the House of Heroes rotates through the fifth-dimensional axis in a fixed point in the multiversal structure of the Orrery of Worlds. Four siphons have been drilled in from the Monitor Sphere to the Orrery, to permit harvest of the miracle Ultramenstruum, known also known as Bleed, from the universes of the multiverse, that the Monitors refer to as 'germ worlds.'
Morrison's Final Crisis: Superman Beyond depicts the Bleed to exist in 4-D. These are Monitor Zillo Valla's own words: "We'll traveling through the Bleedstorm space between the universes... But you'll need to upgrade to 4-D vision to truly comprehend what you experience."
Sphere of the Gods
An archetypal realm outside of corporeal reality, at the edge of the multiverse, and the homeworld of all gods, deities and magic. Although the inhabitants of the Sphere of the Gods exist on a higher plane of existence than those of the Orrery of Worlds, they exist in 4-D.
To summarize, the local multiverse is 2-C. There are 52 universes, each existing in 3-D and when you leave them you enter the 4-D Bleed between and around the universes. Every other universe whose exact number is infinite are stored in Hypertime which exists outside of the local multiverse.
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In the 2021 finale of Death Metal, the multiverse was restored by the Hands and Earth-0 along with the other universes from the local multiverse were brought back with not only new universes emerging, but also a network of infinite multiverses, becoming its own sort of Omniverse within the Greater Omniverse. Earth-Omega and Elseworld are the two new centers of the new configuration of the multiverse and as Hypertime healed, people had flashes of a myriad of alternative futures and pasts. The Dark Multiverse is still beneath reality.
In Flashpoint Beyond, we've learned that the Omniverse was the Space aspect of the Divine Continuum which integrate the multiverse, the Sphere of the Gods, the Dark Multiverse, the Metaverse, while Hypertime was the Time aspect which integrate Limbo and the Vanishing Point.
This configuration of reality is solid 2-A, but no one has been shown to scale to it, except the Great Darkness.
In Flashpoint Beyond, we've learned that the Omniverse was the Space aspect of the Divine Continuum which integrate the multiverse, the Sphere of the Gods, the Dark Multiverse, the Metaverse, while Hypertime was the Time aspect which integrate Limbo and the Vanishing Point.
This configuration of reality is solid 2-A, but no one has been shown to scale to it, except the Great Darkness.
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Sphere of the Gods
An archetypal realm outside of corporeal reality, at the edge of the multiverse, and the homeworld of all gods and deities worshiped by mortals. As the resident of the Orrery exists in 3-D, the resident of the Sphere of the Gods exists in 4-D.
An archetypal realm outside of corporeal reality, at the edge of the multiverse, and the homeworld of all gods and deities worshiped by mortals. As the resident of the Orrery exists in 3-D, the resident of the Sphere of the Gods exists in 4-D.
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I believe the Source does as well. In John Stewart The Emerald Knight, it's stated that the Source in like an ocean while the universes and multiverses are like rivers flowing from it. The branching streams of those rivers are hypertime. With that in mind, I would suggest taking a look at Green Lantern runs, post Death Metal, first before finishing. I don't mean this in a rude way. It's mostly because the Source has a lot of info in those runs.
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I did but it was a long time ago but I think it's just a way of saying that Source encompasses all universes and multiverses, being all born from its energies and shaped by the Hands.
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Possibly. The comic however did release in 2022 after Dark Crisis and Flashpoint Beyond. It's pretty recent. That's all I wanted to mention though. In case there was more information needed.
Ped2018
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He summed it up perfectly but what is this supposed to entail? The Source scales beyond everything and that specific author has stated before he said even the Darkness was born of the Source.
I don't believe the Darkness is near the Presence in power much less the Source. So Source scales to anything that the Darkness scales to.
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I read the Green Lantern story and it says that the Source emerged in the Darkness. Other than that, yes, the Source scales above everything and everyone in the cosmology, except the Great Darkness.
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Regardless, the Crisis Cosmology page does not contain the Elemental Realms, the Lord of Order and Chaos, and the Ascended Beings. Can one of you help me? And what do you think of the Godsphere inhabitants existing in 4-D? Should we add the information regarding the Source and Hypertime presented in the Green Lantern story? @VeryGoofyToddler you are welcome to help if you wish.
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I do not know. Hypertime does not seem to create stable universes, just temporary aberrations in storytelling continuity that are then ignored by other writers/absorbed into the main universal timelines.
