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General DC Comics Discussion Thread
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IdiosyncraticLawyer
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Joke Battles
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I'll do that in a moment.
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I say this because these views of God differ enormously.
Yahweh is a Judeo-Christian-based sub-aspect of God shaped according to people's dreams. Presence is its more general state. Since he goes by Yahweh, we need to use the name Yahweh in his profile. Or we can create profile as God (Vertigo), it's up to you.
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Can you show me some scans of him being referred to as Yahweh? It's been a while since I read through Sandman and Lucifer (2000) but I genuinely don't remember that being a thing.
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Here’s a random example I had saved from the titan arc. if need be I can gather more.
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No need, that's what I was looking for. I must've brain dumped this. Thank you.
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In the Lucifer series, God is also referred to as the Divine Presence. Even though it's not a reference to DeMatteis' God, it's still the case.
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I'm done removing Acausality Type 5 from DC profiles.
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These are from the draft page of the Crisis Cosmology.
Creation Origins
Before creation, it was said that there was only a Great Darkness; a single black infinitude where nothing and everything were the same thing. From the darkness came a burning light that would later be known as the Source or the Presence. As the light grew, everything was no longer nothing and the darkness screamed, causing an imperceptible flaw in what was once the immaculate perfection of the light. In that moment, the multiverse was born, shaped by Perpetua using the eneries of the Source and created her children -- the Monitor, the Anti-Monitor, and the World Forger -- to manage the different aspects of her new reality.
At this point, Perpetua had fulfilled her duty and was meant to die and allow her essence to return to the Source but she refused and defied her function. She began experimenting on the mortals at the center of her multiverse, transforming them into the Apex Predators, planning to create an army of immortal beings to repel anything the Source would send to force her to give up her life and control over reality. Her plans were thwarted by her children who alerted her superiors, the Judges of the Source, who sent the tremendous energy needed to imprison Perpetua, her army and her power in the Source Wall, forced to watch her multiverse grow anew without her taint. This became known as the myth of the perpetual and predatory multiverse that existed before the current multiverse.
Greater Omniverse, Shores of Judgment, Unseen Council
Throughout the Overvoid, there are an infinite number of multiverses that rise and fall, created by super-celestial beings like Perpetua constituting a Greater Omniverse. The Chronicler, an omniversal functionary, has stated that his Codex Omniversa carries the history of trillions of dead multiverses. Although said to be infinite, the presence of the Shores of Judgment or the Banks of Creation, where the Hands reside, as the end of the void contradicts this.
Although vaguely described, the Shores of Judgment, used interchangeably with the Banks of Creation, is where the Hands reside and where the void ends according to Perpetua. It was also said that the original multiverse was flying through the void to an unknown destination, awaiting the final judgement. This is echoed by Alpheus who stated that when a Multiverse breaks apart before its final evolution, it's sent back to the banks of creation which it was created by super-celestial beings like Perpetua.
The "Unseen Council" was the name used by Scott Snyder to describes a hierarchy that eventually reaches the Source. Beings like Perpetua are meant to ascend with the other beings of this hierarchy once their function is fulfilled. Notable parts of this hierarchy are the Judges of the Source who oversee and judge the various multiverse in the Greater Omniverse, although they were used interchangeably with the Hands during Snyder's Justice League and Death Metal. Each member of the hierarchy being qualitatively superior to the multiverses, making themselves "visible" to lesser beings.
Source/Overvoid/Presence = Light of Creation
Although commonly associated with different parts of the DC cosmology, these various entities were often been used interchangeably over the years. A few years earlier, Morrison had directly stated that the Overvoid and the Source were the same, as Snyder did with the Presence and the Source and more recently the Overvoid and the Presence, all associated with the Godhead that Joshua Williamson referred to as the Light of Creation.
One God, all three being viewpoints or potentially emanations of the same whole, existing as superior to the Greater Omniverse and the Unseen Council, just referred to in a different way. The Light of Creation has appeared in various aspects to lesser beings, but is in reality a vast non-dual void from which the multiverses have grown and beings like Perpetua return once their purpose is fulfilled to ascend with the other beings of the Unseen Council.
Great Darkness
In the prelude to 2022 Dark Crisis, Joshua Williamson integrated a very old concept with a more modern concept -- that of the Great Darkness seen in Alan Moore's celebrated Swamp Thing run, and the Overvoid created by Grant Morrison. Williamson specifically references the original Great Darkness storyline from Moore's Swamp Thing, when Zatara died, and adjusted it to what Grant Morrison and Scott Snyder have architected over the years for DC continuity.
Those who have read issues 49 and 50 of Swamp Thing Vol 2 will remember that the Great Darkness was the opposite of God who existed before the first light came into existence. Translating this into modern cosmology, the Great Darkness would have existed before the Presence, which is exactly what Williamson did when he brought the Great Darkness back as the black void where the first star was born in defiance of what it is and has grown.
The Great Darkness is also synonymous with/contains the Shadowlands which individuals like Alan Scott and Obsidian have ties to, and has various avatars and aspects like Darkseid or Empty Hand, but is not a force of good or evil, with no wants or needs, any more than the night sky or our own shadows. It just sits in the black for eternity, watching everything as a flicker of light waiting to be extinguished by itself.
Creation Origins
Before creation, it was said that there was only a Great Darkness; a single black infinitude where nothing and everything were the same thing. From the darkness came a burning light that would later be known as the Source or the Presence. As the light grew, everything was no longer nothing and the darkness screamed, causing an imperceptible flaw in what was once the immaculate perfection of the light. In that moment, the multiverse was born, shaped by Perpetua using the eneries of the Source and created her children -- the Monitor, the Anti-Monitor, and the World Forger -- to manage the different aspects of her new reality.
At this point, Perpetua had fulfilled her duty and was meant to die and allow her essence to return to the Source but she refused and defied her function. She began experimenting on the mortals at the center of her multiverse, transforming them into the Apex Predators, planning to create an army of immortal beings to repel anything the Source would send to force her to give up her life and control over reality. Her plans were thwarted by her children who alerted her superiors, the Judges of the Source, who sent the tremendous energy needed to imprison Perpetua, her army and her power in the Source Wall, forced to watch her multiverse grow anew without her taint. This became known as the myth of the perpetual and predatory multiverse that existed before the current multiverse.
Greater Omniverse, Shores of Judgment, Unseen Council
Throughout the Overvoid, there are an infinite number of multiverses that rise and fall, created by super-celestial beings like Perpetua constituting a Greater Omniverse. The Chronicler, an omniversal functionary, has stated that his Codex Omniversa carries the history of trillions of dead multiverses. Although said to be infinite, the presence of the Shores of Judgment or the Banks of Creation, where the Hands reside, as the end of the void contradicts this.
Although vaguely described, the Shores of Judgment, used interchangeably with the Banks of Creation, is where the Hands reside and where the void ends according to Perpetua. It was also said that the original multiverse was flying through the void to an unknown destination, awaiting the final judgement. This is echoed by Alpheus who stated that when a Multiverse breaks apart before its final evolution, it's sent back to the banks of creation which it was created by super-celestial beings like Perpetua.
The "Unseen Council" was the name used by Scott Snyder to describes a hierarchy that eventually reaches the Source. Beings like Perpetua are meant to ascend with the other beings of this hierarchy once their function is fulfilled. Notable parts of this hierarchy are the Judges of the Source who oversee and judge the various multiverse in the Greater Omniverse, although they were used interchangeably with the Hands during Snyder's Justice League and Death Metal. Each member of the hierarchy being qualitatively superior to the multiverses, making themselves "visible" to lesser beings.
Source/Overvoid/Presence = Light of Creation
Although commonly associated with different parts of the DC cosmology, these various entities were often been used interchangeably over the years. A few years earlier, Morrison had directly stated that the Overvoid and the Source were the same, as Snyder did with the Presence and the Source and more recently the Overvoid and the Presence, all associated with the Godhead that Joshua Williamson referred to as the Light of Creation.
One God, all three being viewpoints or potentially emanations of the same whole, existing as superior to the Greater Omniverse and the Unseen Council, just referred to in a different way. The Light of Creation has appeared in various aspects to lesser beings, but is in reality a vast non-dual void from which the multiverses have grown and beings like Perpetua return once their purpose is fulfilled to ascend with the other beings of the Unseen Council.
Great Darkness
In the prelude to 2022 Dark Crisis, Joshua Williamson integrated a very old concept with a more modern concept -- that of the Great Darkness seen in Alan Moore's celebrated Swamp Thing run, and the Overvoid created by Grant Morrison. Williamson specifically references the original Great Darkness storyline from Moore's Swamp Thing, when Zatara died, and adjusted it to what Grant Morrison and Scott Snyder have architected over the years for DC continuity.
Those who have read issues 49 and 50 of Swamp Thing Vol 2 will remember that the Great Darkness was the opposite of God who existed before the first light came into existence. Translating this into modern cosmology, the Great Darkness would have existed before the Presence, which is exactly what Williamson did when he brought the Great Darkness back as the black void where the first star was born in defiance of what it is and has grown.
The Great Darkness is also synonymous with/contains the Shadowlands which individuals like Alan Scott and Obsidian have ties to, and has various avatars and aspects like Darkseid or Empty Hand, but is not a force of good or evil, with no wants or needs, any more than the night sky or our own shadows. It just sits in the black for eternity, watching everything as a flicker of light waiting to be extinguished by itself.
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Vertigo touches on the various aspects of the Presence such as Logos(Voice/Word), Primum Mobile(Throne of Light - Presence), and Yahweh(God of Covenant/Lord of Hosts).
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Matteis uses Divine Presence and Presence as the same thing. Like how you can call the Creator “divine” but it doesn't really change the meaning.
He only used it twice during Spectre and Phantom Stranger. I don't believe Carey nor Gaiman ever used “Divine Presence.” He certainly has been called the Presence multiple times with honor and everyone else familiar with him refers to him as Yahweh.
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I have a question? why is emperor joker listed as 2-C? I was going through his rating and the justification was that he warped the sphere of the gods but the sphere of the gods profile states it is Low 1-C?
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The Presence and Divine Presence emphasize the same thing, yes I know that. What I really want to say is that when Mike talks about God, he names it according to the situation. Light, voice, presence etc.
He does not use The Presence as a personal name, but rather emphasizes his presence.
Here is a scan of Divine Presence from the Lucifer series. It is clear that it is used here to glorify God.
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You as well, @Alonik .
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The scan link was incorrect, I fixed it now.
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Ah, yes that scan but they aren't meant to denote anything. There's no difference between Presence and Divine Presence as you mentioned but Matteis's version of God isn't one and the same with Carey/Gaiman.
The point was Divine Presence was used to describe a title or entity. While Lucifer's scans depict his “holy presence” because they were in it. It's more of an adjective than a proper noun.
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I disagree with the Great Darkness predating the Presence. There's no real scan or implication for this.
For one, the Darkness is contrasted by Light before it was formless, without consciousness, and without name. It was simply “dark and cold.”
The Presence/Source shouldn't be used interchangeably with Light. It seems more so the Light is an aspect. Given the Right Hand eventually broke off from the Darkness and became the Empty Hand.
Sort of like how Pralaya existed before the Creator but she in turn is part of the One True Creator as both those are an aspect of God (Pralaya and the Creator).
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I think the fact that all three entities are viewpoints of the Light makes sense because Williamson integrated the "Light of Creation" and associated it with the origins of the Overvoid, which Morrison declared to be the same as the Source a few years earlier.
The Light of Creation is also identified as the hand featured in Moore's Swamp Thing. The hand of the Presence is that of the Light as the story clearly shows.
Literally a year earlier, the Presence and the Source were assumed to be the same, as Snyder's Death Metal shows a comma between "the Presence, of the Source", which Snyder later confirmed to be the case.
Additionally, DC's recent guidebook: The DC Book: A Vast and Vibrant Multiverse Simply Explained describes the Presence to be in charge of the Hands featured in Snyder's stories.
The three entities were clearly used interchangeably over the years and Williamson simply associated the whole as the Light of Creation and did a pretty good job as well.
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That's an interview and not written in the comics. His not bound to what the comics say because his free to express ideas that were not implemented in the comics.
That's just a fan theory to connect who “God/Unknowbale” is.
He expressed the Presence in JSA and Final Revelation as creator of the Material and Heaven. That his form manifested from nothing. No reason to believe he is the Overvoid.
Like how Empty Hand is his “right hand” which is made to be filled and make deals. It's metaphorical, not literal. Like how the Dog we see in Trinity of Sins is an aspect of the Voice, which is an aspect of God.
Overvoid wasn't. It was just treated as space similar, if not synonymous to the Greater Omniverse.
Yeah, but Snyder didn't write that. That's just summing up what we already know. Doesn't mention anything of the Overvoid even being sentient other than being all-consuming.
No, they weren't. Source and Presence certainly have an impact on what's been printed. Light has never been mentioned to be the entirety of the Presence. DC Guide Book listed the Presence as the fountain head of all Existence surpassing even the Source. In actual comics, it just said Light came at some point. It never said it was God/Presence and probably is of it, not is it.
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I agree.
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I've read it in detail. That's more speculation than anything. I don't see how they were used interchangeably. The Presence and Source most definitely but that's where it ends. The Light and Overvoid are different matters.
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DC dimensions
Hello there How about accepting infinite/any number of coordinates/spatial dimensions in the dc universe It's like Earths out of phase with it dragged back by her human children, who can only see it three-dimensionaly...
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The Source and the Overvoid were labelled as the white void outside creation in the map of the multiverse. And it doesn't matter if Snyder didn't write the guide since he already told us that the Presence and the Source are the same.
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The Map wasn't fully finished nor do we know much of what was being said. That version of the Source, as he mentioned specifically aligns with different views of the Unknowable. Meaning it was just another face of the same entity and that being the Overvoid or whatever it was before the Flaw as a state of Oneness, Unity, and Perfection.
Meaning anything applying to Overvoid applies to the Source. Yet in Metal, we see many differences and we don't see them being used interchangeably. I'm not on the idea these are the same beings unless we take Morrison's logic first before the others. I'm pretty sure they didn't discuss matters on the three aspects while collaborating given what we've seen.
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No. The Light was depicted as being the same as the Overvoid and the hand of the Light turned out to be that of the Presence we saw in Moore's Swamp which made a truce with the Great Darkness. The Empty Hand was formed after the conclusion of the truce. There is no speculation at this point, especially since there are evidences by stories and writers.
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When was that “hand” the entirety of the Presence? They just saw a hand reach from the Heaven and I'm not in the mindset, that Presence limits his entirety in one aspect.
As for your Empty Hand point, the jist of the argument was arguing for the nature of aspects in conjunction with their truer form. So your argument is not point-point solid and connects way too many empty threads.
Plus, Incarnate gives us the implication of the history. Which we see to be twisted and turned a bit and a bit false given Maya wasn't in her right mind when explaining it simply by possessing the Crack.
It should be more like this:
The Presence/Source(prior to any manifestation)
The Great Darkness(state of existence before manifestation).
Light of Creation/Overvoid
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Yes, that's not the point and I wasn't trying to be oblivious to ignore the final rendition. That's specifically how Morrison views it and given his idea that the Overvoid isn't predated goes against the idea of what Willaimson has added with the Great Darkness.
Not to mention other than the Map, there's no clear pinpoint reason to suggest that they are the same for everyone else. What I've seen is just that one fan theory with the fake tweet to connect the idea that they are all the same and Death Metal saying Presence = Source and people go crazy to reconnect the idea that “Unknowable” is the Presence when Morrison already depicted where he made the Presence.
Collaborator or not in some part, it's not mentioned again that the Overvoid is the Source. They pretty much make the Overvoid just a vast space then eventually a state of existence of immaculate perfection before the Flaw. How can it be non-dual if it were light to be contrasted by darkness?
Still a fan theory and makes no sense why we even merged them.
Morrison should be a standalone with his previous works. While Snyder/Tynion/Williamson can be merged. There are too many variables with Morrison to make sense of the others. Being a collaborator in some aspect means little since, in the end, it's not his ideas being the main focal point. I don't think Morrison is hard to work with to let others fill in his ideas.
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I don't think incorporating Morrison's old 90s comics is the best move, especially since Snyder and Williamson are largely based on Morrison's mid-2000s work and are largely in unity with them. I think merging it to a Crisis Cosmology that uses the unified approach from Williamson makes the most sense, as it resolves a lot of the complications and vagueness around the relationship between those three beings.
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After re-reading the blog, why the Sphere of the Gods isn't qualitatively superior to the Orrery? What's the evidence? I don't remember why we listed it as 2-C.
Also. Hypertime should be above the Sphere of the Gods, between the Sphere of the Gods and Limbo.
Also. Hypertime should be above the Sphere of the Gods, between the Sphere of the Gods and Limbo.
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Okay makes sense.
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I wouldn't say it made it easier and resolved complications. It rather adds a new narrative to view it differently thus creating a new way of understanding which changes what the other has said.
Like, Metal, did undo a lot of understanding of Morrison. How, Dark Frontier, did a lot to Metal. Grant Morrison really is just the pioneer to have started it. His makes the least sense if we don't go by what he said first.
From what I've read about all of these creators work. Morrison's stand-alone is a lot better than an entire merged Cosmology.
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Sphere is. The residents of the Sphere are not. Hypertime should be listed just outside of Orrery. It's not transcended by the Sphere but how it functions with the timeline doesn't really concur with the higher aspect of the Multiverse.
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Not sure I understand what is being proposed.
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I just adjusted the descriptions.
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I'm lagging behind on the thread, so sorry if I missed anything.
Just reading the explanation I think it works. Probably needs scan justifications though.
IdiosyncraticLawyer
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