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General DC Comics Discussion Thread

Antvasima said:
Also, when will the DC Comics herald-level characters be upgraded? It has been several months now.

@LordTracer @Armorchompy @Emirp sumitpo
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Outside of being busy with IRL stuff, we’ve got like 83 characters that need to be updated, and a lot of them are having their AP justifications completely rewritten, having scans and references added, etc.
 
There is contractions regarding the Great Darkness between Tynion's Justice League Dark and Williamson's Justice League Incarnate. The Great Darkness in Tynion's story is described as residing in, or being, the dark Sphere of the Gods surrounding the Dark Multiverse, where the Upside-Down Man resides. The Great Darkness in Williamson's story is described as the vast black canvas where the Light of Creation or Overvoid or Presence emerged.

I had this theory to reconcile the two things for the Crisis Cosmology page: when the Light of Creation grew and everything was no longer nothing, the Great Darkness screamed and retreated into the Darkworld which was used interchangeably with the Great Darkness and the place where the Upside-Down Man resides, where it slumbered for an eternity until a piece of the darkness escaped and nearly destroyed Heaven until it made a truce with the Light. When the multiverse was recreated by the Hands, the Great Darkness once again became beyond the Omniverse and beings like the Upside-Down Man were after its powers.

Note that the Great Darkness itself has clarified that it was not the cause of any crisis, nor did it seek to destroy the Multiverse, contrary to what Doctor Multiverse believed.

What do you think?

The link to my draft page: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User:Elizio33/Sandbox9
 
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Elizio33 said:
There is contractions regarding the Great Darkness between Tynion's Justice League Dark and Williamson's Justice League Incarnate. The Great Darkness in Tynion's story is described as residing in, or being, the dark Sphere of the Gods surrounding the Dark Multiverse, where the Upside-Down Man resides. The Great Darkness in Williamson's story is described as the vast black canvas where the Light of Creation or Overvoid or Presence emerged.

I had this theory to reconcile the two things for the Crisis Cosmology page: when the Light of Creation grew and everything was no longer nothing, the Great Darkness screamed and retreated into the Darkworld which was used interchangeably with the Great Darkness and the place where the Upside-Down Man resides, where it slumbered for an eternity until a piece of the darkness escaped and nearly destroyed Heaven until it made a truce with the Light. When the multiverse was recreated by the Hands, the Great Darkness once again became beyond the Omniverse and beings like the Upside-Down Man were after its powers.

Note that the Great Darkness itself has clarified that it was not the cause of any crisis, nor did it seek to destroy the Multiverse, contrary to what Doctor Multiverse believed.

What do you think?

The link to my draft page: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User:Elizio33/Sandbox9
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Seems fine.
 
Elizio33 said:
There is contractions regarding the Great Darkness between Tynion's Justice League Dark and Williamson's Justice League Incarnate. The Great Darkness in Tynion's story is described as residing in, or being, the dark Sphere of the Gods surrounding the Dark Multiverse, where the Upside-Down Man resides. The Great Darkness in Williamson's story is described as the vast black canvas where the Light of Creation or Overvoid or Presence emerged.

I had this theory to reconcile the two things for the Crisis Cosmology page: when the Light of Creation grew and everything was no longer nothing, the Great Darkness screamed and retreated into the Darkworld which was used interchangeably with the Great Darkness and the place where the Upside-Down Man resides, where it slumbered for an eternity until a piece of the darkness escaped and nearly destroyed Heaven until it made a truce with the Light. When the multiverse was recreated by the Hands, the Great Darkness once again became beyond the Omniverse and beings like the Upside-Down Man were after its powers.

Note that the Great Darkness itself has clarified that it was not the cause of any crisis, nor did it seek to destroy the Multiverse, contrary to what Doctor Multiverse believed.

What do you think?

The link to my draft page: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User:Elizio33/Sandbox9
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However, are you absolutely certain that these two versions of the cosmology should be reconciled, given the contradictions?
 
Antvasima said:
However, are you absolutely certain that these two versions of the cosmology should be reconciled, given the contradictions?
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Eh i find it pertinent enough since the Great Darkness was stated to be a sliver of the power of the Upside-Down Man in Tynion's story
 
Antvasima said:
I am not so certain.

@Deagonx @Qawsedf234 @Firestorm808 @Eficiente @PrinceofPein

What do you think?
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The story explains it. A piece of the Great Darkness broke off from its original state(Upside Downman and the Otherkind). That's why it was a sliver of “their” power.

Tynion indirectly notions throughout the story that Darkness is Upside Downman while Hecate is the magical being made of “Light.”
 
Deagonx said:
Really disappointing to see these characters at 2-C, personally. But it is what it is.
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Your relentless opposition to upgrades with such overwhelming evidence behind them has become a tiresome cliche. It's warranted with the cosmology split, not so much with this.
 
IdiosyncraticLawyer said:
Your relentless opposition to upgrades with such overwhelming evidence behind them has become a tiresome cliche.
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"Overwhelming evidence." Bruh. The vast vast majority of the feats in the original proposal were so obviously not evidence that they were immediately dismissed out of hand, and the small remainder of ones that had some potential for validity were incredibly vague, even the very "best" ones, to say nothing of the many anti-feats and logical errors such an interpretation creates for so many storylines.

The tiresome cliché here is the culture of pursuing upgrades for upgrades sake, in clear opposition to the actual portrayal of the characters. Maybe I'm the bad guy for being the fun police trying to stop the various upgrades people want to do, but I'd prefer the profiles to not be exaggerated to such an insane degree. I'm used to it in most verses, but DC is the verse I care about the most, so it's disappointing to see it fall to this state.
 
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Deagonx said:
"Overwhelming evidence." Bruh. The vast vast majority of the feats in the original proposal were so obviously not evidence that they were immediately dismissed out of hand, and the small remainder of ones that had some potential for validity were incredibly vague, even the very "best" ones, to say nothing of the many anti-feats and logical errors such an interpretation creates for so many storylines.

The tiresome cliché here is the culture of pursuing upgrades for upgrades sake, in clear opposition to the actual portrayal of the characters. Maybe I'm the bad guy for being the fun police trying to stop the various upgrades people want to do, but I'd prefer the profiles to not be exaggerated to such an insane degree. I'm used to it in most verses, but DC is the verse I care about the most, so it's disappointing to see it fall to this state.
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Except this is blatantly not true according to almost anyone's reading of the canon but yours. Even Ant's acquiesced that the feats are reliable now. Compared to everyone here who's worked so hard to finally get over VS Battles Wiki's reluctance to upgrade DC by preparing such explicit, unambiguous feats and tirelessly refuting non-point debunks and anti-feats that are easily explained away, you're being stubborn. The feats are clear, and almost all the anti-feats you've provided have been invalid. If you have new arguments, then go contest the thread, but relentlessly complaining about honest attempts to fix errors as a "culture of pursuing upgrades for upgrades sake" is bad form.
@KLOL506 @Emirp sumitpo Care to comment?
 
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Lawyer, I'm entirely unpersuaded by your aggravated ramblings and I'm well within my rights to express disappointment about the upgrades here without you getting publicly salty about it or inviting other people here for the express purpose of causing public drama. If you feel my stance on the matter is invalid or that I'm firmly in the minority, that's your business and I have no intention of attempting to persuade you otherwise. As far as I am concerned the issues with the feats were very clear, and the anti-feats were overwhelming.
 
Deagonx said:
Lawyer, I'm entirely unpersuaded by your aggravated ramblings and I'm well within my rights to express disappointment about the upgrades here without you getting publicly salty about it or inviting other people here for the express purpose of causing public drama. If you feel my stance on the matter is invalid or that I'm firmly in the minority, that's your business and I have no intention of attempting to persuade you otherwise. As far as I am concerned the issues with the feats were very clear, and the anti-feats were overwhelming.
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If you believe the feats have issues or our attempts to refute the anti-feats were invalid, go contest it and provide your arguments instead of complaining in the general discussion thread. I'm not even that involved in the upgrades in the first place, I'm not actually invested in what tiers the characters get, but I read what both sides have said on the matter, and you've done a decidedly poor job in attempting to refute 2-C thus far.
KLOL506 said:
Deagon, Lawyer, both of you take a chill-pill and please don't include us in your spats. Last thing I want is to get reported alongside all three of you.
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Okay, sorry.
 
Congrats to DC fans for finally getting a W. Superman vs DBS Goku is gonna get spammed I can feel it, so thread mods get your locking senses ready.

DC fans need this, the fact that an angered Hulk would get barely tickled by a punch from The Presense, Archangels, Monitors etc. all at the same time will never not be heart wrenching
 
Quantu said:
DC fans need this, the fact that an angered Hulk would get barely tickled by a punch from The Presense, Archangels, Monitors etc. all at the same time will never not be heart wrenching
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Depending on how Ultima's tiering system overhaul goes, this might be gone soon too.
 
Elizio33 said:
There is contractions regarding the Great Darkness between Tynion's Justice League Dark and Williamson's Justice League Incarnate. The Great Darkness in Tynion's story is described as residing in, or being, the dark Sphere of the Gods surrounding the Dark Multiverse, where the Upside-Down Man resides. The Great Darkness in Williamson's story is described as the vast black canvas where the Light of Creation or Overvoid or Presence emerged.

I had this theory to reconcile the two things for the Crisis Cosmology page: when the Light of Creation grew and everything was no longer nothing, the Great Darkness screamed and retreated into the Darkworld which was used interchangeably with the Great Darkness and the place where the Upside-Down Man resides, where it slumbered for an eternity until a piece of the darkness escaped and nearly destroyed Heaven until it made a truce with the Light. When the multiverse was recreated by the Hands, the Great Darkness once again became beyond the Omniverse and beings like the Upside-Down Man were after its powers.

Note that the Great Darkness itself has clarified that it was not the cause of any crisis, nor did it seek to destroy the Multiverse, contrary to what Doctor Multiverse believed.

What do you think?

The link to my draft page: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User:Elizio33/Sandbox9
Click to expand...

@Deagonx what do you think ?
 
I think you're correct that there are contradictions there, although I lean towards thinking that the Williamson depiction takes primacy, because it takes and inverts the UDM-GEB relationship and is more recent, so it's a relatively direct retcon. Your theory is not bad, but it may be best not to put it directly in an official page for DC on the wiki because it is a theory. The Great Darkness has long been the opposite of the Presence, who is above the Sphere, so Tynion's take on the matter is a bit of an outlier in my opinion. I think Williamson did a good job taking everything and adjusting it to unity.
 
Deagonx said:
I think you're correct that there are contradictions there, although I lean towards thinking that the Williamson depiction takes primacy, because it takes and inverts the UDM-GEB relationship and is more recent, so it's a relatively direct retcon. Your theory is not bad, but it may be best not to put it directly in an official page for DC on the wiki because it is a theory. The Great Darkness has long been the opposite of the Presence, who is above the Sphere, so Tynion's take on the matter is a bit of an outlier in my opinion. I think Williamson did a good job taking everything and adjusting it to unity.
Click to expand...
I understand, but it was said in Tynion's JLA Dark that it was a piece of the Great Darkness that broke free and almost destroyed Heaven that was seen as a sliver of Man's power, not the full Great Darkness. There is another story that said that when God said let there be light, the primordial darkness, a reference to the Great Darkness, retreated to Shadowlands/Abyss. The Abyss was implied to be the same thing as the Great Darkness.
 
TimeTrapperFanBoy said:
I’m kinda interested to know on what tier you would place the Post Crisis and Rebirth Heralds.
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I think they usually cap out at planetary or star level. For instance, prior to the upgrade we had them all at Solar System level due to a single statement about Alan Scott having a power source that could wipe out the solar system. I didn't think this was a good basis, as it was just the lone statement and it's questionable whether Alan's individual fighting prowess scales directly to the explosive energy within him, or if the statement was even accurate. I thought it was a pretty good example of an outlier, but we had 30+ profiles all chain-scaling to that one single statement.

But that was the only actual star level evidence we had. The vast majority of the time these character are fighting at city or mountain level, and when they get very serious it can get planetary. The complete absence of any real feats between Planet and Universal (nothing galaxy level, almost nothing star level) to me is one of the strongest indications that these characters are nowhere near universal. It renders most of the storylines somewhat nonsensical to think of the characters as being capable of that.

The usual response to this is "something something varies" but this needs to have some grounded limitations. It isn't as though these fights don't matter to the Justice League, it's often life or death or has huge stakes, so in order for this to be true we'd have to think that in the vast majority of circumstances (like, 10,000 to 1 in terms of frequency) members of the Justice League that scale are using an infinitesimal fraction of their power even in life or death circumstances, that somehow they have never portrayed any genuine galaxy or star level feats (just a lone statement of questionable validity) but in reality they are all capable of destroying universes. My personal opinion on the matter is that this is unreasonable to the point of absurdity.

I'm a huge huge fan of these characters and I consider Superman my favorite character of all time, this isn't born of any spite against him or the verse, I just think it really cheapens these storylines to characterize Supes this way and it makes me feel bummed, but in battleboarding as a whole the culture trends towards exaggeration so many of our profiles are just wacky caricatures of the storylines, as if the source material is more about performing a thought experiment of what the highest possible interpretation of the info is, rather than a faithful representation. Most of our profiles are exaggerated, but standing in between me and any downgrade is a horde of fans of feel very very strongly about keeping the tier high (a good example of this was Armor's entirely reasonable downgrade of Mario, which was met with vicious protest just because they didn't want the character being downgraded, no matter how reasonable).

This is an issue somewhat unique to VSBW which revolves around indexing, the battles themselves are secondary (because the battles must adhere to the profiles). In other communities the battles are the primary focus and there is no official indexing. Under this format, any of the more unreasonable notions about a character are immediately met with resistance by the opposing side. In our community many CRTs are only participated in by the fans themselves, and its hard to have a voice as an "opposer" unless there is large opposition to a verse who cares enough to keep their profiles from being unreasonably high. So individual fandoms often act with relative isolation and independence, and these fandoms are almost by definition always motivated to pursue more and more upgrades.

This has upsides and downsides. It's better that issues are able to be decided in isolation, without the same points of contention playing out in every match up thread between different fandoms, but it has its drawbacks as I mentioned above.

Almost all of the verses I am thought of as downplaying are verses I am actually really big fans of. It's because I am a fan that the exaggeration bothers me, because I've read or watched the stories and know that, for instance, anyone in Avatar being capable of destroying the Moon is just ridiculous.
 
Deagonx said:
I think you're correct that there are contradictions there, although I lean towards thinking that the Williamson depiction takes primacy, because it takes and inverts the UDM-GEB relationship and is more recent, so it's a relatively direct retcon. Your theory is not bad, but it may be best not to put it directly in an official page for DC on the wiki because it is a theory. The Great Darkness has long been the opposite of the Presence, who is above the Sphere, so Tynion's take on the matter is a bit of an outlier in my opinion. I think Williamson did a good job taking everything and adjusting it to unity.
Click to expand...
This makes sense to me. So what should we do regarding our cosmology scaling page?
 
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Technically speaking, The Presence should have every power and ability in DC, within reason. Being that he's the source of all things and exist within everyone and everything. Isn't that what's required to have every power and ability in the verse for Creator level characters? At least, DeMatteis version was rather explicit on that point in his stories.

To be honest, looking at the Presence page is a bit jarring. He's still being treated as composite and uses scans from everything, but the cosmology is split. There's even a Lucifer 2018 scan being used, and Sandman Universe isn't even accepted as apart of Vertigo Cosmology, bizarrely enough. Void Manipulation is repeated twice using the very same scan I mentioned from Lucifer. It's also missing several powers and abilities. At least, from what I can tell at a glance. Like Lucifer has Nonduality and Avatar Creation but the Presence doesn't?
 
Asterotheology said:
Technically speaking, The Presence should have every power and ability in DC, within reason. Being that he's the source of all things and exist within everyone and everything. Isn't that what's required to have every power and ability in the verse for Creator level characters? At least, DeMatteis version was rather explicit on that point in his stories.
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Usually we only list the prominent things in cases like this. We wouldn't need to add, like, cloth manipulation or something to him.


Asterotheology said:
To be honest, looking at the Presence page is a bit jarring. He's still being treated as composite and uses scans from everything, but the cosmology is split. There's even a Lucifer 2018 scan being used, and Sandman Universe isn't even accepted as apart of Vertigo Cosmology, bizarrely enough. Void Manipulation is repeated twice using the very same scan I mentioned from Lucifer. It's also missing several powers and abilities. At least, from what I can tell at a glance. Like Lucifer has Nonduality and Avatar Creation but the Presence doesn't?
Click to expand...
It'd be great if you made a CRT to that effect.
 
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