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Eternity Seventh Cosmos 1-A upgrade
- Thread starter DanielIH15
- Start date
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Marvel is insanely inconsistent in general, due to several hundreds of writers with wildly different opinions regarding the setting. As such it tends to be unreliable to assume absolute cosmological consistency over several decades.
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> If you mean the "aspects" thing, then I don't think that strictly applied to Adam Tribunal, as he explicitly described himself as some fundamentally eternal entity that predates and will exist after the end of "all things", and possessing a secret name that nobody knows, despite his manifestations going through a life-death-rebirth cycle.
Galactus explicitly stated that the Living Tribunal was an inner working within the Multiversal Eternity. What Adam Warlock meant was simply that, due to the fact the multiverse is continuously reborn, he is continuously reborn alongside with it. Nothing further. He even calls himself the Living Tribunal "of the eighth cosmos", suggesting that each version of the Multiverse had its own Living Tribunal (something that was stated ever since the idea of Galactus being from "the sixth universe/multiverse/reality" was first introduced somewhere in the 80s), which means the Tribunal can't be anything but one of the entities born from the torn-off pieces of the First Firmament, and overall an aspect of each iteration of the cosmos/the Ultimate Ultimates.
The Multiversal Eternity made very few appearances before Al Ewing established it as a factual entity, but every single obvious appearance implied that it was this powerful, supreme-ish being that contained all others, and was the embodiment of all abstracts.
Galactus explicitly stated that the Living Tribunal was an inner working within the Multiversal Eternity. What Adam Warlock meant was simply that, due to the fact the multiverse is continuously reborn, he is continuously reborn alongside with it. Nothing further. He even calls himself the Living Tribunal "of the eighth cosmos", suggesting that each version of the Multiverse had its own Living Tribunal (something that was stated ever since the idea of Galactus being from "the sixth universe/multiverse/reality" was first introduced somewhere in the 80s), which means the Tribunal can't be anything but one of the entities born from the torn-off pieces of the First Firmament, and overall an aspect of each iteration of the cosmos/the Ultimate Ultimates.
The Multiversal Eternity made very few appearances before Al Ewing established it as a factual entity, but every single obvious appearance implied that it was this powerful, supreme-ish being that contained all others, and was the embodiment of all abstracts.
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Venom: The End is likely non-canon, since it's a "The End" story.Antvasima said:
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@Kep
Maybe Galactus doesn't know or understand the full extent of the Living Tribunal, because Adam TLT's description of itself as predating and postdating all existence clearly precludes it from merely being an aspect of some Multi-Eternity at its full force.
And I don't understand how anyone could come to the conclusion that 7th Cosmos TLT was just an aspect of 7th Cosmos Eternity, given that the exact reverse relation of Eternity instead being an aspect of TLT was explicitly described in the comics.
Maybe Galactus doesn't know or understand the full extent of the Living Tribunal, because Adam TLT's description of itself as predating and postdating all existence clearly precludes it from merely being an aspect of some Multi-Eternity at its full force.
And I don't understand how anyone could come to the conclusion that 7th Cosmos TLT was just an aspect of 7th Cosmos Eternity, given that the exact reverse relation of Eternity instead being an aspect of TLT was explicitly described in the comics.
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As I said, if Multi-Eternity is above the TLT, that seems to be the case, even during the 7th Cosmos, both profiles should be reworded. And, if we're going to treat the Far Shore existing during the previous Eternity as an outlier or sormething, then we should make a note explaining this.
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TLT went through like, 3 phases of characterization.Hykuu said:
- First, in the 70s and early 80s he was characterized as being the multiversal judge who presided over the abstract host, but nothing beyond that. He was never sold as transcendent over them so fully in these early stories, though that's easy to infer given he was literally introduced as a multiversal singularity
- Then, in the late 80s and 90s they started hyping the Living Tribunal up more and more. Suddenly he wasn't just the abstract being presiding over multiversal law, but he was the amalgamation of every abstract that existed. He existed at the central axis of all things and had fate revolve around himself. He presided over multiple multiverses, over the entire Omniverse in fact, and his power and authority came from literally God.
- This more or less stuck as the status quo until Secret Wars came along and killed him off as a worf to hype up the new villains. This had been done before but not to such an extent, and naturally the Tribunal's status as invincible and all-powerful was forever broken
- And finally, following the reformulation and more or less complete reinvention of the Marvel Cosmology by Al Ewing in modern, Post Secret Wars Marvel, the Tribunal's power and role has been greatly reduced. He is still incredibly important to the multiverse, but he's no longer defined as being the entirety of the multiverse given form, or the amalgamation of every abstract ever, or things like that. And authors nowadays will often worf him off without fear.
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Matthew wrote a summary that I largely agree with. I am not sure if TLT actually was ever supposed to preside over the entire omniverse though. It seems like extremely arrogant and nonsensical by whichever author that wrote the story to claim that a Marvel character has authority over all of fiction and reality in any case.
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TLT went through like, 3 phases of characterization.
"Hell, the true essence of the new Living Tribunal is probably 1-A too, since it predates and postdates all things, which in this context includes the Superflow. Notably, TLT also describes his "true face" as "ever-hidden" and his "true name" as completely unknown."
- First, in the 70s and early 80s he was characterized as being the multiversal judge who presided over the abstract host, but nothing beyond that. He was never sold as transcendent over them so fully in these early stories, though that's easy to infer given he was literally introduced as a multiversal singularity
- Then, in the late 80s and 90s they started hyping the Living Tribunal up more and more. Suddenly he wasn't just the abstract being presiding over multiversal law, but he was the amalgamation of every abstract that existed. He existed at the central axis of all things and had fate revolve around himself. He presided over multiple multiverses, over the entire Omniverse in fact, and his power and authority came from literally God.
- This more or less stuck as the status quo until Secret Wars came along and killed him off as a worf to hype up the new villains. This had been done before but not to such an extent, and naturally the Tribunal's status as invincible and all-powerful was forever broken
- And finally, following the reformulation and more or less complete reinvention of the Marvel Cosmology by Al Ewing in modern, Post Secret Wars Marvel, the Tribunal's power and role has been greatly reduced. He is still incredibly important to the multiverse, but he's no longer defined as being the entirety of the multiverse given form, or the amalgamation of every abstract ever, or things like that. And authors nowadays will often worf him off without fear.
"Hell, the true essence of the new Living Tribunal is probably 1-A too, since it predates and postdates all things, which in this context includes the Superflow. Notably, TLT also describes his "true face" as "ever-hidden" and his "true name" as completely unknown."
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I completely disagree with any version of TLT being 1-A.
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The idea that the Tribunal is the amalgamation of every abstract was established in relationship to the normal, universal versions of the Cosmic Compass, not their multiversal forms, which hadn't even been solidifed as a concept at the time.
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Let's drop this "true essence" headcanon as well. The Superflow form of the Adam Warlock is his true form, as explicitly stated in the story.
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@Kep
Except in every shown level of reality before 2015 Secret Wars, TLT is explicitly shown to be the lord of the rest of the abstracts. His superiority over the universal cosmic compass clearly carries over to their multiversal forms.
@Paradox
If the Superflow manifestation of the Adam Tribunal is his true form, then please explain the "ever-hidden true face" and "unknown true name" descriptors, along with its description of itself as existing before and after all existence.
Except in every shown level of reality before 2015 Secret Wars, TLT is explicitly shown to be the lord of the rest of the abstracts. His superiority over the universal cosmic compass clearly carries over to their multiversal forms.
@Paradox
If the Superflow manifestation of the Adam Tribunal is his true form, then please explain the "ever-hidden true face" and "unknown true name" descriptors, along with its description of itself as existing before and after all existence.
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> Except in every shown level of reality before 2015 Secret Wars, TLT is explicitly shown to be the lord of the rest of the abstracts. His superiority over the universal cosmic compass clearly carries over to their multiversal forms.
Prove this. The Multiversal Eternity barely appeared before the Ultimates came out and confirmed that it was a thing, and in every single appearance someone implied it was the supreme entity in the hierarchy. In the Ultimates it was explicitly established that it was superior to the Tribunal. The cosmic hierarchy, which the Tribunal is part of, only exists as a figment of Eternity to begin with. It makes no sense for him to be inferior to an infinitesimal aspect of himself.
> If the Superflow manifestation of the Adam Tribunal is his true form
Not if. Explicitly stated that the Superflow is the highest level of reality where the conceptual forms of the abstracts dwell in, including the Tribunal.
> then please explain the "ever-hidden true face" and "unknown true name" descriptors.
Both of those are meaningless in the context of this debate. They don't imply anything other than the Tribunal having no real name, and his three faces being simply parts of his "true" face.
> along with its description of itself as existing before and after all existence.
This was explained immediately after the statement. The Tribunal existed since the very first multiverse, died with it, and resurrected upon its rebirth/evolution into the next cosmos. This is just a reference to the renewal cycle that the Multiverses go through and the Tribunal's function in that same cycle, not to some "true form".
Prove this. The Multiversal Eternity barely appeared before the Ultimates came out and confirmed that it was a thing, and in every single appearance someone implied it was the supreme entity in the hierarchy. In the Ultimates it was explicitly established that it was superior to the Tribunal. The cosmic hierarchy, which the Tribunal is part of, only exists as a figment of Eternity to begin with. It makes no sense for him to be inferior to an infinitesimal aspect of himself.
> If the Superflow manifestation of the Adam Tribunal is his true form
Not if. Explicitly stated that the Superflow is the highest level of reality where the conceptual forms of the abstracts dwell in, including the Tribunal.
> then please explain the "ever-hidden true face" and "unknown true name" descriptors.
Both of those are meaningless in the context of this debate. They don't imply anything other than the Tribunal having no real name, and his three faces being simply parts of his "true" face.
> along with its description of itself as existing before and after all existence.
This was explained immediately after the statement. The Tribunal existed since the very first multiverse, died with it, and resurrected upon its rebirth/evolution into the next cosmos. This is just a reference to the renewal cycle that the Multiverses go through and the Tribunal's function in that same cycle, not to some "true form".
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>Prove this. The Multiversal Eternity barely appeared before the Ultimates came out and confirmed that it was a thing, and in every single appearance someone implied it was the supreme entity in the hierarchy. In the Ultimates it was explicitly established that it was superior to the Tribunal. The cosmic hierarchy, which the Tribunal is part of, only exists as a figment of Eternity to begin with. It makes no sense for him to be inferior to an infinitesimal aspect of himself.
It's like everyone here forgot the time when Eternity had to get the TLT to decide between him and Adam Warlock on who should own the Infinity Gauntlet. Or the time the TLT was pondering whether to choose to keep either the Earth-616 and Ultimate Marvel Eternities. Neither of which would be necessary, or maybe even possible, if Eternity was the zenith of the abstract hierarchy.
TLT's status as a judge of all things is meaningless and even redundant if he is somehow infinitesimal compared to Multiversal Eternity.
>Not if. Explicitly stated that the Superflow is the highest level of reality where the conceptual forms of the abstracts dwell in, including the Tribunal.
The Superflow is where the "signifier and signified become one", "metaphor and reality meet", and "concepts make war".
This may sound like semantic quibbling, but it's rather important, as nothing about that rather flowery statement explicitly states that the Superflow is where the conceptual forms of the abstracts reside in full.
And you already accept that Eternity encompasses and exists beyond it, despite being an abstract himself, so why is it not possible for certain other abstracts, like the Living Tribunal, to do so as well?
Everything I have read about the Living Tribunal suggests that, like Oblivion, Eternity, and classic Beyonder, he is something unique even amongst the other abstracts.
>Both of those are meaningless in the context of this debate. They don't imply anything other than the Tribunal having no real name, and his three faces being simply parts of his "true" face.
That sounds like bullshit headcanon based on nothing to me.
>This was explained immediately after the statement. The Tribunal existed since the very first multiverse, died with it, and resurrected upon its rebirth/evolution into the next cosmos. This is just a reference to the renewal cycle that the Multiverses go through and the Tribunal's function in that same cycle, not to some "true form".
Existences don't start and end with things they explicitly predate and ultimately live past, Kep. This sounds like more headcanon.
It's like everyone here forgot the time when Eternity had to get the TLT to decide between him and Adam Warlock on who should own the Infinity Gauntlet. Or the time the TLT was pondering whether to choose to keep either the Earth-616 and Ultimate Marvel Eternities. Neither of which would be necessary, or maybe even possible, if Eternity was the zenith of the abstract hierarchy.
TLT's status as a judge of all things is meaningless and even redundant if he is somehow infinitesimal compared to Multiversal Eternity.
>Not if. Explicitly stated that the Superflow is the highest level of reality where the conceptual forms of the abstracts dwell in, including the Tribunal.
The Superflow is where the "signifier and signified become one", "metaphor and reality meet", and "concepts make war".
This may sound like semantic quibbling, but it's rather important, as nothing about that rather flowery statement explicitly states that the Superflow is where the conceptual forms of the abstracts reside in full.
And you already accept that Eternity encompasses and exists beyond it, despite being an abstract himself, so why is it not possible for certain other abstracts, like the Living Tribunal, to do so as well?
Everything I have read about the Living Tribunal suggests that, like Oblivion, Eternity, and classic Beyonder, he is something unique even amongst the other abstracts.
>Both of those are meaningless in the context of this debate. They don't imply anything other than the Tribunal having no real name, and his three faces being simply parts of his "true" face.
That sounds like bullshit headcanon based on nothing to me.
>This was explained immediately after the statement. The Tribunal existed since the very first multiverse, died with it, and resurrected upon its rebirth/evolution into the next cosmos. This is just a reference to the renewal cycle that the Multiverses go through and the Tribunal's function in that same cycle, not to some "true form".
Existences don't start and end with things they explicitly predate and ultimately live past, Kep. This sounds like more headcanon.
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> It's like everyone here forgot the time when Eternity had to get the TLT to decide between him and Adam Warlock on who should own the Infinity Gauntlet.
This was Universal Eternity.
> Or the time the TLT was pondering whether to choose to keep either the Earth-616 and Ultimate Marvel Eternities'
This was Universal Eternity.
> Neither of which would be necessary, or maybe even possible, if Eternity was the zenith of the abstract hierarchy.
The Living Tribunal being more powerful than Universal Eternity is meaningless as a ground of comparison between him and the Multiversal Eternity. There are exactly zero examples of the two interacting or being compared, aside from when they were compared and Eternity was said to be superior.
> TLT's status as a judge of all things is meaningless and even redundant if he is somehow infinitesimal compared to Multiversal Eternity.
Eternity is the multiverse. The Tribunal is the internal function within him who judges issues that threaten the cosmic balance of each individual reality, or potentially multiple realities, within the wider multiverse, among other issues between other abstracts.
> The Superflow is where the "signifier and signified become one", "metaphor and reality meet", and "concepts make war".
This may sound like semantic quibbling, but it's rather important, as nothing about that rather flowery statement explicitly states that the Superflow is where the conceptual forms of the abstracts reside in full.
Galactus states that the Superflow is the highest level of reality, the level of concepts. Those "living concepts that make war" are explicitly shown to be the abstracts. You have to provide proof it isn't, not the other way around.
> And you already accept that Eternity encompasses and exists beyond it, despite being an abstract himself
"Multi-Eternity" is an abstract, but he isn't part of the cosmic hierarchy. And assuming the Tribunal is capable of operating beyond the Superflow, so what? None of this proves he is above or close to Eternity. The story itself explicitly has Lifebringer Galactus state that he isn't.
> Everything I have read about the Living Tribunal suggests that, like Oblivion, Eternity, and classic Beyonder, he is something unique even amongst the other abstracts.
Indeed. What does that prove about him and Eternity, though?
> That sounds like bullshit headcanon based on nothing to me.
You're the one making the claims, Malomtek. You have to substantiate them, not handwave the counter-arguments, especially considering there's no evidence on your side.
> Existences don't start and end with things they explicitly predate and ultimately live past, Kep. This sounds like more headcanon.
The Tribunal predating the multiversal Eternity and the Ultimates is your own assumption. It is stated nowhere. The idea that the Tribunal was shaped from the cosmic energies released by the collapse of the old cosmos is something that has been played around with since before Ultimates, in fact.
So, once again, you have yet to provide proof that he "explicitly predates" anything. The story has Galactus say he is merely one of the many abstracts that make up Eternity's workings. To make things worse, Warlock is killed by Lord Chaos and Master Order moments after his statement, due to a problem within Eternity to boot, and then proceeds to have his position as the embodiment of multiversal law taken by Logos. The contextual evidence is heavily against him. Sorry.
This was Universal Eternity.
> Or the time the TLT was pondering whether to choose to keep either the Earth-616 and Ultimate Marvel Eternities'
This was Universal Eternity.
> Neither of which would be necessary, or maybe even possible, if Eternity was the zenith of the abstract hierarchy.
The Living Tribunal being more powerful than Universal Eternity is meaningless as a ground of comparison between him and the Multiversal Eternity. There are exactly zero examples of the two interacting or being compared, aside from when they were compared and Eternity was said to be superior.
> TLT's status as a judge of all things is meaningless and even redundant if he is somehow infinitesimal compared to Multiversal Eternity.
Eternity is the multiverse. The Tribunal is the internal function within him who judges issues that threaten the cosmic balance of each individual reality, or potentially multiple realities, within the wider multiverse, among other issues between other abstracts.
> The Superflow is where the "signifier and signified become one", "metaphor and reality meet", and "concepts make war".
This may sound like semantic quibbling, but it's rather important, as nothing about that rather flowery statement explicitly states that the Superflow is where the conceptual forms of the abstracts reside in full.
Galactus states that the Superflow is the highest level of reality, the level of concepts. Those "living concepts that make war" are explicitly shown to be the abstracts. You have to provide proof it isn't, not the other way around.
> And you already accept that Eternity encompasses and exists beyond it, despite being an abstract himself
"Multi-Eternity" is an abstract, but he isn't part of the cosmic hierarchy. And assuming the Tribunal is capable of operating beyond the Superflow, so what? None of this proves he is above or close to Eternity. The story itself explicitly has Lifebringer Galactus state that he isn't.
> Everything I have read about the Living Tribunal suggests that, like Oblivion, Eternity, and classic Beyonder, he is something unique even amongst the other abstracts.
Indeed. What does that prove about him and Eternity, though?
> That sounds like bullshit headcanon based on nothing to me.
You're the one making the claims, Malomtek. You have to substantiate them, not handwave the counter-arguments, especially considering there's no evidence on your side.
> Existences don't start and end with things they explicitly predate and ultimately live past, Kep. This sounds like more headcanon.
The Tribunal predating the multiversal Eternity and the Ultimates is your own assumption. It is stated nowhere. The idea that the Tribunal was shaped from the cosmic energies released by the collapse of the old cosmos is something that has been played around with since before Ultimates, in fact.
So, once again, you have yet to provide proof that he "explicitly predates" anything. The story has Galactus say he is merely one of the many abstracts that make up Eternity's workings. To make things worse, Warlock is killed by Lord Chaos and Master Order moments after his statement, due to a problem within Eternity to boot, and then proceeds to have his position as the embodiment of multiversal law taken by Logos. The contextual evidence is heavily against him. Sorry.
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So, by the info provided by Kep, in case of this being accepted, TLT shouldn's scale to this, due to him being inferior to Multi-Eternity, just Multi-Infinity, Multi-Death, the Chaos King and the Never Queen should scale, nobody else. Also, first key of the TLT should be reworded to prevent misunderstandings, make clear that we are not talking about the multiversal forms of the entities in question.
Edit: Dormmamu second key should scale too for obvious reasons.
Edit: Dormmamu second key should scale too for obvious reasons.
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Also Dormammu with Multi-Eternity's power...
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>The Living Tribunal being more powerful than Universal Eternity is meaningless as a ground of comparison between him and the Multiversal Eternity. There are exactly zero examples of the two interacting or being compared, aside from when they were compared and Eternity was said to be superior.
That works both ways. How can Multi-Eternity be "said to be superior" when "there are exactly zero examples of [TLT and Multi-Eternity] interacting or being compared"? Given the general one-to-one correspondence between the relations of abstracts across realities and planes of existence (like how TLT lords over Eternity whether in Earth-616 or the Dimension of Manifestations), it is only logical to infer that TLT is more powerful than Multi-Eternity.
>Eternity is the multiverse. The Tribunal is the internal function within him who judges issues that threaten the cosmic balance of each individual reality, or potentially multiple realities, within the wider multiverse, among other issues between other abstracts.
Until 2015 Secret Wars, Eternity was an aspect of TLT, who was explicitly described as "the multiverse taken form" in his fight with the Beyonders. The "other issues between other abstracts" that TLT makes decisions in also includes Eternity himself, who considers TLT his superior.
>Galactus states that the Superflow is the highest level of reality, the level of concepts. Those "living concepts that make war" are explicitly shown to be the abstracts. You have to provide proof it isn't, not the other way around.
I didn't argue that the Superflow wasn't the highest realm or the realm of concepts, I argued that the Superflow wasn't necessarily where the full form of any given abstract resided.
>"Multi-Eternity" is an abstract, but he isn't part of the cosmic hierarchy. And assuming the Tribunal is capable of operating beyond the Superflow, so what? None of this proves he is above or close to Eternity. The story itself explicitly has Lifebringer Galactus state that he isn't.
Multi-Eternity not being part of the cosmic hierarchy is no more than your assumption, and the assumption of Paradox. Even if TLT was reduced to no more than a mere "inner working" of Eternity, as Galactus claims, Eternity clearly depends on TLT to uphold multiversal law, so TLT should be very close to Eternity, like how the brain is important to the functions of a human body.
>Indeed. What does that prove about him and Eternity, though?
That, like Oblivion, TLT isn't really a part of the "normal" cosmic hierarchy, but something akin to a "transcendent abstract".
>You're the one making the claims, Malomtek. You have to substantiate them, not handwave the counter-arguments, especially considering there's no evidence on your side.
This dismissive statement is hilarious coming from a man who is basically trying to shift the burden of proof and have me prove a negative against his previous dismissive statement, where he proves he cannot properly read the quote "Before all was, I am. After all ends, I am." Yet here you are, claiming I have no evidence on my side.
You can't "handwave" away counter-"arguments" that didn't exist in the first place.
>The Tribunal predating the multiversal Eternity and the Ultimates is your own assumption. It is stated nowhere.
"Before all was, I am. After all ends, I am."
>The idea that the Tribunal was shaped from the cosmic energies released by the collapse of the old cosmos is something that has been played around with since before Ultimates, in fact.
That scan also showed the face of Eternity too, but you don't consider Eternity to be a mere shard of the old cosmos, but the rebirth of the old cosmos in full.
Double standards abound.
That works both ways. How can Multi-Eternity be "said to be superior" when "there are exactly zero examples of [TLT and Multi-Eternity] interacting or being compared"? Given the general one-to-one correspondence between the relations of abstracts across realities and planes of existence (like how TLT lords over Eternity whether in Earth-616 or the Dimension of Manifestations), it is only logical to infer that TLT is more powerful than Multi-Eternity.
>Eternity is the multiverse. The Tribunal is the internal function within him who judges issues that threaten the cosmic balance of each individual reality, or potentially multiple realities, within the wider multiverse, among other issues between other abstracts.
Until 2015 Secret Wars, Eternity was an aspect of TLT, who was explicitly described as "the multiverse taken form" in his fight with the Beyonders. The "other issues between other abstracts" that TLT makes decisions in also includes Eternity himself, who considers TLT his superior.
>Galactus states that the Superflow is the highest level of reality, the level of concepts. Those "living concepts that make war" are explicitly shown to be the abstracts. You have to provide proof it isn't, not the other way around.
I didn't argue that the Superflow wasn't the highest realm or the realm of concepts, I argued that the Superflow wasn't necessarily where the full form of any given abstract resided.
>"Multi-Eternity" is an abstract, but he isn't part of the cosmic hierarchy. And assuming the Tribunal is capable of operating beyond the Superflow, so what? None of this proves he is above or close to Eternity. The story itself explicitly has Lifebringer Galactus state that he isn't.
Multi-Eternity not being part of the cosmic hierarchy is no more than your assumption, and the assumption of Paradox. Even if TLT was reduced to no more than a mere "inner working" of Eternity, as Galactus claims, Eternity clearly depends on TLT to uphold multiversal law, so TLT should be very close to Eternity, like how the brain is important to the functions of a human body.
>Indeed. What does that prove about him and Eternity, though?
That, like Oblivion, TLT isn't really a part of the "normal" cosmic hierarchy, but something akin to a "transcendent abstract".
>You're the one making the claims, Malomtek. You have to substantiate them, not handwave the counter-arguments, especially considering there's no evidence on your side.
This dismissive statement is hilarious coming from a man who is basically trying to shift the burden of proof and have me prove a negative against his previous dismissive statement, where he proves he cannot properly read the quote "Before all was, I am. After all ends, I am." Yet here you are, claiming I have no evidence on my side.
You can't "handwave" away counter-"arguments" that didn't exist in the first place.
>The Tribunal predating the multiversal Eternity and the Ultimates is your own assumption. It is stated nowhere.
"Before all was, I am. After all ends, I am."
>The idea that the Tribunal was shaped from the cosmic energies released by the collapse of the old cosmos is something that has been played around with since before Ultimates, in fact.
That scan also showed the face of Eternity too, but you don't consider Eternity to be a mere shard of the old cosmos, but the rebirth of the old cosmos in full.
Double standards abound.
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>Let's make new Eternity 1-A because new Marvel cosmology is vastly different from old cosmology.
>No, wait, let's now backscale this to old stories that used the old cosmology.
How about no.
>No, wait, let's now backscale this to old stories that used the old cosmology.
How about no.
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I proposed backscaling due to a very recent flashback showing explicitly that the Far Shore existed at that time.
If there was no evidence for this, I wouldn't even think about it. But Ewing himself says yes, that the flashback shows that, that the Far Shore did exist in the 7th Cosmos. Things like that can't be ignored, I think. It is a retcon, yes, but things like that happens.
If there was no evidence for this, I wouldn't even think about it. But Ewing himself says yes, that the flashback shows that, that the Far Shore did exist in the 7th Cosmos. Things like that can't be ignored, I think. It is a retcon, yes, but things like that happens.
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> That works both ways. How can Multi-Eternity be "said to be superior" when "there are exactly zero examples of [TLT and Multi-Eternity] interacting or being compared"
Except there are. I said this in the very same section you just quoted. Eternity was directly shown to be superior in the only instance a character directly compared the two. Fourth time now.
> Given the general one-to-one correspondence between the relations of abstracts across realities and planes of existence
No. Before Ultimates came out Eternity appeared a grand total of perhaps three to four times, and Oblivion was the only other "multiversal" abstract. No relationships between multiversal and universal abstracts were established, because there were barely any multiversal abstracts to begin with. So, in short, this is pure headcanon.
> Until 2015 Secret Wars, Eternity was an aspect of TLT
Universal Eternity, not the complete versio. The multiversal version was confirmed to be a separate entity who operates independently of any of his "Cells" across the multiverse.
> who was explicitly described as "the multiverse taken form" in his fight with the Beyonders
The Tribunal can still be a embodiment of the multiverse while being an inner function of a higher entity who embodies it on a more complete level, as detailed in the Ultimates. Every abstract entity's true, complete form can be said to embody the entirety of their concept. Lord Chaos and Master Order embody the multiversal concepts of order and chaos, while the Tribunal is the personification of multiversal law.
> The "other issues between other abstracts" that TLT makes decisions in also includes Eternity himself, who considers TLT his superior.
Universal Eternity, yes.
> I didn't argue that the Superflow wasn't the highest realm or the realm of concepts, I argued that the Superflow wasn't necessarily where the full form of any given abstract resided.
Provide proof of this. The scans of the Ultimates storyline explicitly go out of their way to claim otherwise. They can operate outside and beyond the Superflow through bodies, yes, but the concepts they embody are stated to be contained entirely within that higher, background space.
> Multi-Eternity not being part of the cosmic hierarchy is no more than your assumption, and the assumption of Paradox.
Eternity is the framework upon which the abstracts of the cosmic hierarchy depend on to begin with, thus outside of it.
> Even if TLT was reduced to no more than a mere "inner working" of Eternity, as Galactus claims, Eternity clearly depends on TLT to uphold multiversal law
So? Eternity also "depends" on Lord Chaos and Master Order to maintain the balance between order and chaos. Are they on the same general level as the Tribunal and Eternity? The Living Tribunal embodies a concept that is essential to reality functioning. That is meaningless as far as power comparisons go.
> That, like Oblivion, TLT isn't really a part of the "normal" cosmic hierarchy, but something akin to a "transcendent abstract".
Oblivion's avatar is part of the Cosmic Compass. It's just that his true form as the void beyond everything transcends all his physical manifestations, which exist solely for the sake of preserving reality's existence. In the other hand, the Tribunal has been consistently portrayed and defined as the most powerful among the abstracts still operating within the confines of the multiverse.
> This dismissive statement is hilarious coming from a man who is basically trying to shift the burden of proof and have me prove a negative against his previous dismissive statement, where he proves he cannot properly read the quote "Before all was, I am. After all ends, I am." Yet here you are, claiming I have no evidence on my side.
Post the entire statement.
> That scan also showed the face of Eternity too, but you don't consider Eternity to be a mere shard of the old cosmos, but the rebirth of the old cosmos in full.
The Universal Eternity, not the multiversal one.
Except there are. I said this in the very same section you just quoted. Eternity was directly shown to be superior in the only instance a character directly compared the two. Fourth time now.
> Given the general one-to-one correspondence between the relations of abstracts across realities and planes of existence
No. Before Ultimates came out Eternity appeared a grand total of perhaps three to four times, and Oblivion was the only other "multiversal" abstract. No relationships between multiversal and universal abstracts were established, because there were barely any multiversal abstracts to begin with. So, in short, this is pure headcanon.
> Until 2015 Secret Wars, Eternity was an aspect of TLT
Universal Eternity, not the complete versio. The multiversal version was confirmed to be a separate entity who operates independently of any of his "Cells" across the multiverse.
> who was explicitly described as "the multiverse taken form" in his fight with the Beyonders
The Tribunal can still be a embodiment of the multiverse while being an inner function of a higher entity who embodies it on a more complete level, as detailed in the Ultimates. Every abstract entity's true, complete form can be said to embody the entirety of their concept. Lord Chaos and Master Order embody the multiversal concepts of order and chaos, while the Tribunal is the personification of multiversal law.
> The "other issues between other abstracts" that TLT makes decisions in also includes Eternity himself, who considers TLT his superior.
Universal Eternity, yes.
> I didn't argue that the Superflow wasn't the highest realm or the realm of concepts, I argued that the Superflow wasn't necessarily where the full form of any given abstract resided.
Provide proof of this. The scans of the Ultimates storyline explicitly go out of their way to claim otherwise. They can operate outside and beyond the Superflow through bodies, yes, but the concepts they embody are stated to be contained entirely within that higher, background space.
> Multi-Eternity not being part of the cosmic hierarchy is no more than your assumption, and the assumption of Paradox.
Eternity is the framework upon which the abstracts of the cosmic hierarchy depend on to begin with, thus outside of it.
> Even if TLT was reduced to no more than a mere "inner working" of Eternity, as Galactus claims, Eternity clearly depends on TLT to uphold multiversal law
So? Eternity also "depends" on Lord Chaos and Master Order to maintain the balance between order and chaos. Are they on the same general level as the Tribunal and Eternity? The Living Tribunal embodies a concept that is essential to reality functioning. That is meaningless as far as power comparisons go.
> That, like Oblivion, TLT isn't really a part of the "normal" cosmic hierarchy, but something akin to a "transcendent abstract".
Oblivion's avatar is part of the Cosmic Compass. It's just that his true form as the void beyond everything transcends all his physical manifestations, which exist solely for the sake of preserving reality's existence. In the other hand, the Tribunal has been consistently portrayed and defined as the most powerful among the abstracts still operating within the confines of the multiverse.
> This dismissive statement is hilarious coming from a man who is basically trying to shift the burden of proof and have me prove a negative against his previous dismissive statement, where he proves he cannot properly read the quote "Before all was, I am. After all ends, I am." Yet here you are, claiming I have no evidence on my side.
Post the entire statement.
- Before all was, I was. After all ends I am. I live, I die, I live again...I am the Living Tribunal of the Eighth Cosmos.
> That scan also showed the face of Eternity too, but you don't consider Eternity to be a mere shard of the old cosmos, but the rebirth of the old cosmos in full.
The Universal Eternity, not the multiversal one.
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And again, Adam Warlock was slain and replaced by Logos as the embodiment of multiversal law moments after uttering that sentence.
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That the Tribunal doesn't have a "true form" transcending Eternity.
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So, if the TLT is weaker than Eternity, its profile should be reworded.
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>Multiversal TLT only encompasses Universal Eternity, while Multiversal Eternity is completely beyond Multiversal TLT because TLT is merely the top of the cosmic hierarchy, and Eternity is the framework on which it is built. (this is a condensed version of Kep's main argument)
There's a lot to unpack here.
First is the notion that the Multiversal Living Tribunal only encompasses Universal Eternity. Which simply doesn't make sense, as the multiverse is composed of many Eternities, and TLT would not just encompass only one of them, but all of them.
Second is the notion that Eternity is the framework on which the cosmic hierarchy is built, which is based on nothing but the fact that Eternity is said to embody existence. However, TLT was also said to embody existence itself, so why can't we say that he is the framework on which all abstract hierarchies were built, at least before Secret Wars 2015? It all sounds pretty arbitrary to me.
Hell, from this kind of starting point, one could even argue that the relationship between Eternity and the Living Tribunal is like the relationship between The Source and Monitor-Mind The Overvoid, where they are both aspects of each other, in a multi-une fundamental essence.
>Provide proof of this. The scans of the Ultimates storyline explicitly go out of their way to claim otherwise. They can operate outside and beyond the Superflow through bodies, yes, but the concepts they embody are stated to be contained entirely within that higher, background space.
Well, that depends on how you interpret the "where living concepts make war" quote, which could just mean exactly what it means. The Superflow is where abstracts fight, argue, quibble etc., not necessarily where the true forms of the abstracts are at any given moment.
There are no doubt many times in many places where the abstracts are described as "living concepts doing..." whatever, but we don't consider those places to be where the true forms of abstracts reside.
The Superflow may exist on the highest levels of reality, but other realms, such as the Neutral Zone and Overspace, have that property as well.
And if the Superflow is 1-A, and the multiversal forms of the abstracts are reside in the Superflow, then all the abstracts are 1-A.
If they can operate "outside and beyond" the Superflow through "bodies", then it only proves my point about the Superflow not necessarily being where the full form of any given abstract resided.
>Post the entire statement.
Before all was, I was. After all ends I am. I live, I die, I live again...I am the Living Tribunal of the Eighth Cosmos. Each version of the cosmos had its own version of the Tribunal, which died and resurrected together with the multiverse whenever it faced destruction and came back.
Those versions of the Living Tribunal are no more than manifestations, even on the highest levels of multiversal reality. None of them contain his full abstract essence, hence the reference to the "hidden true face" and "secret true name". It's pretty much the same thing with Darkseid's godhead and his emanations.
>The Universal Eternity, not the multiversal one. (In response to: "That scan also showed the face of Eternity too, but you don't consider Eternity to be a mere shard of the old cosmos, but the rebirth of the old cosmos in full.")
So wait, when the 6th Cosmos exploded, and all the abstracts formed from its shards/parts/nascent energies/whatever, the Multiversal TLT only remained an "inner function", a shard, but Eternity, who was also a shard, somehow came out the framework of the cosmic hierarchy, with the fact he was a shard only *really* applying to Universal Eternity?
That makes no sense at all.
There's a lot to unpack here.
First is the notion that the Multiversal Living Tribunal only encompasses Universal Eternity. Which simply doesn't make sense, as the multiverse is composed of many Eternities, and TLT would not just encompass only one of them, but all of them.
Second is the notion that Eternity is the framework on which the cosmic hierarchy is built, which is based on nothing but the fact that Eternity is said to embody existence. However, TLT was also said to embody existence itself, so why can't we say that he is the framework on which all abstract hierarchies were built, at least before Secret Wars 2015? It all sounds pretty arbitrary to me.
Hell, from this kind of starting point, one could even argue that the relationship between Eternity and the Living Tribunal is like the relationship between The Source and Monitor-Mind The Overvoid, where they are both aspects of each other, in a multi-une fundamental essence.
>Provide proof of this. The scans of the Ultimates storyline explicitly go out of their way to claim otherwise. They can operate outside and beyond the Superflow through bodies, yes, but the concepts they embody are stated to be contained entirely within that higher, background space.
Well, that depends on how you interpret the "where living concepts make war" quote, which could just mean exactly what it means. The Superflow is where abstracts fight, argue, quibble etc., not necessarily where the true forms of the abstracts are at any given moment.
There are no doubt many times in many places where the abstracts are described as "living concepts doing..." whatever, but we don't consider those places to be where the true forms of abstracts reside.
The Superflow may exist on the highest levels of reality, but other realms, such as the Neutral Zone and Overspace, have that property as well.
And if the Superflow is 1-A, and the multiversal forms of the abstracts are reside in the Superflow, then all the abstracts are 1-A.
If they can operate "outside and beyond" the Superflow through "bodies", then it only proves my point about the Superflow not necessarily being where the full form of any given abstract resided.
>Post the entire statement.
Before all was, I was. After all ends I am. I live, I die, I live again...I am the Living Tribunal of the Eighth Cosmos. Each version of the cosmos had its own version of the Tribunal, which died and resurrected together with the multiverse whenever it faced destruction and came back.
Those versions of the Living Tribunal are no more than manifestations, even on the highest levels of multiversal reality. None of them contain his full abstract essence, hence the reference to the "hidden true face" and "secret true name". It's pretty much the same thing with Darkseid's godhead and his emanations.
>The Universal Eternity, not the multiversal one. (In response to: "That scan also showed the face of Eternity too, but you don't consider Eternity to be a mere shard of the old cosmos, but the rebirth of the old cosmos in full.")
So wait, when the 6th Cosmos exploded, and all the abstracts formed from its shards/parts/nascent energies/whatever, the Multiversal TLT only remained an "inner function", a shard, but Eternity, who was also a shard, somehow came out the framework of the cosmic hierarchy, with the fact he was a shard only *really* applying to Universal Eternity?
That makes no sense at all.
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> First is the notion that the Multiversal Living Tribunal only encompasses Universal Eternity. Which simply doesn't make sense, as the multiverse is composed of many Eternities, and TLT would not just encompass only one of them, but all of them.
So what? Encompassing every Eternity in the universe is not the same thing as encompassing the multiversal Eternity, who is the conceptual multiverse itself.
You're really just tossing in a lot of ungrounded speculation all while ignoring a character explicitly stating the Tribunal is just an aspect of Eternity's multiversal form. Find me a statement that compares the Tribunal to Multiversal Eternity positively, please.
> Second is the notion that Eternity is the framework on which the cosmic hierarchy is built, which is based on nothing but the fact that Eternity is said to embody existence.
Eternity is what conceptual existence relies on to be a thing. The First Firmament consuming him would mean the conceptual destruction of the multiverse, and all its abstract entities. So yes, Eternity is the framework upon which the cosmic hierarchy relies on to exist. The Tribunal being a part of the hierarchy and being affected by Eternity still being a newborn makes it impossible for him to be superior.
> Hell, from this kind of starting point, one could even argue that the relationship between Eternity and the Living Tribunal is like the relationship between The Source and Monitor-Mind The Overvoid, where they are both aspects of each other, in a multi-une fundamental essence.
Something for which there is roughly zero proof of other than rampant speculation, and which is contradicted by the storyline establishing that the Tribunal is an aspect of Eternity.
> Well, that depends on how you interpret the "where living concepts make war" quote, which could just mean exactly what it means. The Superflow is where abstracts fight, argue, quibble etc., not necessarily where the true forms of the abstracts are at any given moment.
The Superflow is where the abstracts' true forms reside. They can go to other realms by using bodies and such, but as far as the extent of the concepts they embody, the Superflow is where it's at. Galactus calls it the highest level of reality, the level of "aspects". What does that mean in this context? Luckily, The Never Queen clarifies it in the next chapter's intro. It is a reference to the fact that each concept the Abstract Entities embody is an aspect of the full extent of Eternity's multiverse, which is the sum of all concepts, and thus the Abstracts can also be called "aspects of reality", in a sense.
So Galactus is pretty much saying that the Superflow is the level of the Abstracts, thus it where their true form dwells. The context explicitly establishes this, since Galactus is complimenting Conner Sims' cosmic awareness evolving to such an extent that he can comprehend the highest possible level of existence.
> The Superflow may exist on the highest levels of reality, but other realms, such as the Neutral Zone and Overspace, have that property as well. And if the Superflow is 1-A, and the multiversal forms of the abstracts are reside in the Superflow, then all the abstracts are 1-A.
The Superflow is not 1-A. It is still bound to the concepts of time and space.
> Those versions of the Living Tribunal are no more than manifestations, even on the highest levels of multiversal reality.
This is explicitly false.
Lord Chaos and Master Order killed the true form of the Living Tribunal, the one who embodies the concept of law across the Omniverse/Multiverse, and as a result there is no more law and no more order.
This is why Order and Chaos merge into Logos - to take the Tribunal's place and become the new Multiversal Law that binds all things.
So yes, they killed the true form of the Tribunal. If the text and succeeding context is somehow not enough, Al Ewing himself says they killed the Living Tribunal's true form and took his place at the very top of the hierarchy by merging into Logos.
> So wait, when the 6th Cosmos exploded, and all the abstracts formed from its shards/parts/nascent energies/whatever, the Multiversal TLT only remained an "inner function", a shard, but Eternity, who was also a shard, somehow came out the framework of the cosmic hierarchy, with the fact he was a shard only *really* applying to Universal Eternity?
Multiversal Eternity is the multiverse itself, just like the 6th Cosmos once was, and it is stated that each multiverse becomes more powerful than the last, so it is certain that he didn't quite rise out of the "shards" of the old cosmos exploding. He can't "come out" of the framework of the cosmic hierarchy when the concept of a hierarchy is shown to exist as an aspect of him, to begin with.
> That makes no sense at all.
616 Eternity himself stated in a recent issue that he was shaped at the beginning of time as a small part of the cosmic lineage sustained by the Multiversal Eternity who embodies everything, in fact. He clearly seems to think it makes sense.
So what? Encompassing every Eternity in the universe is not the same thing as encompassing the multiversal Eternity, who is the conceptual multiverse itself.
You're really just tossing in a lot of ungrounded speculation all while ignoring a character explicitly stating the Tribunal is just an aspect of Eternity's multiversal form. Find me a statement that compares the Tribunal to Multiversal Eternity positively, please.
> Second is the notion that Eternity is the framework on which the cosmic hierarchy is built, which is based on nothing but the fact that Eternity is said to embody existence.
Eternity is what conceptual existence relies on to be a thing. The First Firmament consuming him would mean the conceptual destruction of the multiverse, and all its abstract entities. So yes, Eternity is the framework upon which the cosmic hierarchy relies on to exist. The Tribunal being a part of the hierarchy and being affected by Eternity still being a newborn makes it impossible for him to be superior.
> Hell, from this kind of starting point, one could even argue that the relationship between Eternity and the Living Tribunal is like the relationship between The Source and Monitor-Mind The Overvoid, where they are both aspects of each other, in a multi-une fundamental essence.
Something for which there is roughly zero proof of other than rampant speculation, and which is contradicted by the storyline establishing that the Tribunal is an aspect of Eternity.
> Well, that depends on how you interpret the "where living concepts make war" quote, which could just mean exactly what it means. The Superflow is where abstracts fight, argue, quibble etc., not necessarily where the true forms of the abstracts are at any given moment.
The Superflow is where the abstracts' true forms reside. They can go to other realms by using bodies and such, but as far as the extent of the concepts they embody, the Superflow is where it's at. Galactus calls it the highest level of reality, the level of "aspects". What does that mean in this context? Luckily, The Never Queen clarifies it in the next chapter's intro. It is a reference to the fact that each concept the Abstract Entities embody is an aspect of the full extent of Eternity's multiverse, which is the sum of all concepts, and thus the Abstracts can also be called "aspects of reality", in a sense.
So Galactus is pretty much saying that the Superflow is the level of the Abstracts, thus it where their true form dwells. The context explicitly establishes this, since Galactus is complimenting Conner Sims' cosmic awareness evolving to such an extent that he can comprehend the highest possible level of existence.
> The Superflow may exist on the highest levels of reality, but other realms, such as the Neutral Zone and Overspace, have that property as well. And if the Superflow is 1-A, and the multiversal forms of the abstracts are reside in the Superflow, then all the abstracts are 1-A.
The Superflow is not 1-A. It is still bound to the concepts of time and space.
> Those versions of the Living Tribunal are no more than manifestations, even on the highest levels of multiversal reality.
This is explicitly false.
Lord Chaos and Master Order killed the true form of the Living Tribunal, the one who embodies the concept of law across the Omniverse/Multiverse, and as a result there is no more law and no more order.
This is why Order and Chaos merge into Logos - to take the Tribunal's place and become the new Multiversal Law that binds all things.
So yes, they killed the true form of the Tribunal. If the text and succeeding context is somehow not enough, Al Ewing himself says they killed the Living Tribunal's true form and took his place at the very top of the hierarchy by merging into Logos.
> So wait, when the 6th Cosmos exploded, and all the abstracts formed from its shards/parts/nascent energies/whatever, the Multiversal TLT only remained an "inner function", a shard, but Eternity, who was also a shard, somehow came out the framework of the cosmic hierarchy, with the fact he was a shard only *really* applying to Universal Eternity?
Multiversal Eternity is the multiverse itself, just like the 6th Cosmos once was, and it is stated that each multiverse becomes more powerful than the last, so it is certain that he didn't quite rise out of the "shards" of the old cosmos exploding. He can't "come out" of the framework of the cosmic hierarchy when the concept of a hierarchy is shown to exist as an aspect of him, to begin with.
> That makes no sense at all.
616 Eternity himself stated in a recent issue that he was shaped at the beginning of time as a small part of the cosmic lineage sustained by the Multiversal Eternity who embodies everything, in fact. He clearly seems to think it makes sense.
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We should probably take a better look at our Marvel scaling.
Some abstract entities only gained "multiversal" forms in the recent storylines (2017 onwards), yet we are still pretending that every single cosmic being in Marvel had a multiversal form since the 80s or 90s.
Some abstract entities only gained "multiversal" forms in the recent storylines (2017 onwards), yet we are still pretending that every single cosmic being in Marvel had a multiversal form since the 80s or 90s.
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what i think we should do is take this is make another CRT which will focus on the far shore in the 7th cosmos (and if it should be aplied) and also focusing on the marvel scaling
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Yes, the original discussion opened a door to this thing about TLT and Multi-Eternity. We must decide if TLT scales or not above Multi-Eternity (until now, it looks like it is not the case)
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@Kepekley
Are you willing to revise the scaling for the relevant characters? To start with we also need to modify the description in The Living Tribunal profile page.
Are you willing to revise the scaling for the relevant characters? To start with we also need to modify the description in The Living Tribunal profile page.
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