-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
Eternity Seventh Cosmos 1-A upgrade
- Thread starter DanielIH15
- Start date
- 3,687
- 3,458
also can we please not go around nit picking every damn word antva
we all know what he implied by the omniverse and you do too
we all know what he implied by the omniverse and you do too
- 6,594
- 1,708
So...about Galactus fusing with his heart?
- 354
- 44
- Thread starter
- #45
Well, I personally believe that it had to be part of the 7th Cosmos too, because Ewing says "The Far Shore is still right at the edge of everything, where it's always been". And since this storyline shows us a flashback that take place in the previous Multiverse, it's accurate IMO to think that the Far Shore was part of it.
Also, said storyline, during the flashback, said that the Far Shore is at the edge of the Mystery (another name of the Outside), implying that it's inside of the Multiverse I think. That, and that the Challenger never said anything about him leaving or falling out of the Multiverse
Also, said storyline, during the flashback, said that the Far Shore is at the edge of the Mystery (another name of the Outside), implying that it's inside of the Multiverse I think. That, and that the Challenger never said anything about him leaving or falling out of the Multiverse
- 15,332
- 7,563
> Well, I personally believe that it had to be part of the 7th Cosmos too, because Ewing says "The Far Shore is still right at the edge of everything, where it's always been".
Once again, the context for this is that Alonik asked him whether or not it had been retconned, and he responded saying that it hadn't. It has nothing to do with the 7th Cosmos.
Once again, the context for this is that Alonik asked him whether or not it had been retconned, and he responded saying that it hadn't. It has nothing to do with the 7th Cosmos.
- 354
- 44
- Thread starter
- #47
The thing is, the Challenger fell in the Far Shore when the 7th Cosmos existed. In Avengers No Surrender there is a flashback that take place during the 7th Cosmos that shows the Challenger falling to the Far Shore "At the edge of the Mystery", implying the Far Shore was part of the multiverse back then. If not, it would say "outside of the Multiverse" or something like that. In other words, nothing indicates that he left the 7th Cosmos when he was exiled to the Far Shore.
Also, see this, please: https://twitter.com/jdanielhcm/status/1220723246116626434
If I understood well, the houses in the analogy are the multiverses, the front porch is the Far Shore and the story that happened in the old house is the Challenger origin story/flashback in Avengers #679.
Also, see this, please: https://twitter.com/jdanielhcm/status/1220723246116626434
If I understood well, the houses in the analogy are the multiverses, the front porch is the Far Shore and the story that happened in the old house is the Challenger origin story/flashback in Avengers #679.
- 15,332
- 7,563
Conceding to the idea that the Far Shore was within the 7th Cosmos in that story, it'd be an outlier, in my view.
- 354
- 44
- Thread starter
- #49
I could say that, yeah, the flashback showing the Far Shore inside of the 7th Cosmos it is obviously a some kind of retcon of the structure of the 7th Cosmos. Not sure about the Outlier thing, but it could be. I'll see what other members have to say. Thanks for giving your opinion, Kep.
- 3,687
- 3,458
it'd be more of a retcon then an outlier(you know like the anti monitor and the monitor being direct shards of the overvoid making them 1A type retcon)Kepekley23 said:
- 3,687
- 3,458
yeah seems to me that he is impling that the "front porch" is the far shore and that the 7th had a far shore tooDanielIH15 said:
- 15,332
- 7,563
It is still an outlier for the 7th Cosmos to be 1-A. This would generate heavy backscaling for characters with too many anti-feats to be consistently on that level.
- 3,687
- 3,458
not nesseserily for not all the multiversial abstracts would scale too this with the only once to actually scale to this would be pre recton beyonder, pre retcon malecular man, the beyonders, the original living tribunal, chaos king, chaos war hercules, death and infinity as they are directly stated stated to be equals if not outright supiriors of the 7th eternity the other multiversial abstracts would remain low 1-A via incomposing small portions of the multiverse which would still be a low 1-A ratingKepekley23 said:
- 354
- 44
- Thread starter
- #55
I'm with Sir sun man here. Entitities like Multiversal In Betwener, Lord Chaos and Master Order should not scale, even during the 7th Cosmos they are treated as below to Eternity, Death and Infinity in terms of power and hierarchy.
- 2,459
- 486
I agree with Daniel, Alonik and Sir sun man, the idea of a realm like the Far Shore would result in it unaffected by something like the destruction of a multiverse inherently, and since it's literally stated that he had to wait for everything to die (sort of like Thanos when he was banished outside), and he did (he came back around the same time as Thanos aswell if memory serves) then it makes sense the Far Shore still existed within the 7th incarnation, I don't think that means it existed in every single Incarnation though, maybe TFF to be fair
- 17
- 3
A question.
Why do we assume literally anyone in the cosmic hierarchy scales to the Multiversal Eternity, again?
Before the Ultimates came out, this character had a very scattered amount of appearances throughout Marvel History, but all of them seemed to portray the multiversal version of Eternity as some sort of "supreme" entity that embodied everyone and everything, and scaled to no one else.
For example, J.M DeMatteis' Defenders from the 80s depicted the "Multi-Eternity" as the transdual embodiment of everything, the consciousness of conceptual creation, explicitly stated to have no equal or superior, as well as the sole entity floating in the timeless void . The 2005 Defenders story also portrayed the "Multi-Eternity" much the same way and used the exact same wording to describe it, which isn't surprising, since it was co-written by DeMatteis, as well.
The Ultimates just further reinforced this idea, since it showed the Eighth Cosmos' Eternity as the supreme, top dog in the cosmic hierarchy, with even TLT being an inner working within him, as our profiles explain and dictate. But it is not anything new, this was already pretty much the case.
Why do we assume literally anyone in the cosmic hierarchy scales to the Multiversal Eternity, again?
Before the Ultimates came out, this character had a very scattered amount of appearances throughout Marvel History, but all of them seemed to portray the multiversal version of Eternity as some sort of "supreme" entity that embodied everyone and everything, and scaled to no one else.
For example, J.M DeMatteis' Defenders from the 80s depicted the "Multi-Eternity" as the transdual embodiment of everything, the consciousness of conceptual creation, explicitly stated to have no equal or superior, as well as the sole entity floating in the timeless void . The 2005 Defenders story also portrayed the "Multi-Eternity" much the same way and used the exact same wording to describe it, which isn't surprising, since it was co-written by DeMatteis, as well.
The Ultimates just further reinforced this idea, since it showed the Eighth Cosmos' Eternity as the supreme, top dog in the cosmic hierarchy, with even TLT being an inner working within him, as our profiles explain and dictate. But it is not anything new, this was already pretty much the case.
- 2,459
- 486
Dematteis didn't see him as transdual, Eternity himself is by definition a conceptual being who would still exist within some form of dual system as he embodies "everything" on the most fundamental ontological scale.
Also, Eternity isn't even the sole entity floating in the timeless void in Ultimates aswell, we had TFF hiding in the edge of the Outside and The Shaper just chilling, things such as iterations of the multiverse and realms like the superflow and neutral zone not existing before Ultimates already make so much of a difference that nitpicking minor aspects of previous eternities written by other people doesn't make them the same person.
Multi TLT was still above Multi Eternity for a long time, and the 2005 Defenders statement was dismissed already in previous threads by Kep, Matt and other people.
Also, I honestly don't even understand what side this thread is meant to be supporting, probably just me being illiterate.
Also, Eternity isn't even the sole entity floating in the timeless void in Ultimates aswell, we had TFF hiding in the edge of the Outside and The Shaper just chilling, things such as iterations of the multiverse and realms like the superflow and neutral zone not existing before Ultimates already make so much of a difference that nitpicking minor aspects of previous eternities written by other people doesn't make them the same person.
Multi TLT was still above Multi Eternity for a long time, and the 2005 Defenders statement was dismissed already in previous threads by Kep, Matt and other people.
Also, I honestly don't even understand what side this thread is meant to be supporting, probably just me being illiterate.
- 354
- 44
- Thread starter
- #62
Hykuu, the Superflow and the Neutral Zone existed during the 7th Cosmos, although they never were fully explained.
I'll contact other knowleable members to see what they say later.
I'll contact other knowleable members to see what they say later.
- 3,687
- 3,458
I never undetstood it either really eternity has always been stated to be the top of the hiararchy with only a few beings actually being superior to him
- 15,332
- 7,563
The Multiversal Eternity first appeared within DeMatteis' Defenders #92 storyline from 1981, not the Fantastic Four.
- 15,332
- 7,563
And that guy is most likely correct that DeMatteis viewed the Multiversal Eternity as the supreme being in the cosmic hierarchy and a transdual entity in both his Defenders 2005 storyline and the Defenders 1981 one.
- 2,459
- 486
Literally nothing in regards to Dematteis' works establishes him as some sort of transdual being, specially the 1981 Defenders Run which just shows Eternity creating human aspects, losing parts of his being which then basically destablizied reality and the story revolving around that, he appears in like 5 pages aswell last time I checked with limited dialogue, and:
"Eternity himself is by definition a conceptual being who would still exist within some form of dual system as he embodies "everything" on the most fundamental ontological scale."
But yeah, those were Multi Eternity
But at this point, this is just derailment, is there still disagreement that the absolute top dogs of the Cosmic Hierarchy scale to low 1-A due to the 7th iteration, or are we just waiting for more comments?
"Eternity himself is by definition a conceptual being who would still exist within some form of dual system as he embodies "everything" on the most fundamental ontological scale."
But yeah, those were Multi Eternity
But at this point, this is just derailment, is there still disagreement that the absolute top dogs of the Cosmic Hierarchy scale to low 1-A due to the 7th iteration, or are we just waiting for more comments?
- 17
- 3
Multi-Eternity being the embodiment of non-transdual stuff is irrelevant and doesn't make him bound to the scale of said "everything" nor prevents him from being transdual in his totality, especially when the story has Eternity himself state he is a formless entity, who sought to find out what humanity meant by giving himself duality, form and otherness. Even our profiles acknowledge this, since the eighth iteration of the True Eternity is considered 1-A despite sharing the exact same nature as his seventh iteration.
As far as feats go, the evidence heavily suggests that Multi-Eternity did not suddenly become the top dog of the hierarchy in the Eighth Multiverse. Rather, he'd always been the top guy. The Defenders 2005 storyline, which was co-written by DeMatteis, clearly said as much, and so did the original Defenders 1981 storyline.
Eternity is "unutterably alone" and "infinitely lonely" because he is embodiment of everything and everyone. As he himself says in the other Defenders story, even the abstract entities of reality are just flickering thoughts within his consciousness.
I think this wiki's version of the cosmic hierarchy has much to be improved on, because we are both inflating and downplaying several characters; primarily because we are giving "Multi" forms to literally every single abstract even though only Eternity, Infinity, Death and Oblivion and a few others have such forms. Lord Chaos, Master Order, The In-Betweener, and almost everyone else that isn't a major abstract...no.
As far as feats go, the evidence heavily suggests that Multi-Eternity did not suddenly become the top dog of the hierarchy in the Eighth Multiverse. Rather, he'd always been the top guy. The Defenders 2005 storyline, which was co-written by DeMatteis, clearly said as much, and so did the original Defenders 1981 storyline.
Eternity is "unutterably alone" and "infinitely lonely" because he is embodiment of everything and everyone. As he himself says in the other Defenders story, even the abstract entities of reality are just flickering thoughts within his consciousness.
I think this wiki's version of the cosmic hierarchy has much to be improved on, because we are both inflating and downplaying several characters; primarily because we are giving "Multi" forms to literally every single abstract even though only Eternity, Infinity, Death and Oblivion and a few others have such forms. Lord Chaos, Master Order, The In-Betweener, and almost everyone else that isn't a major abstract...no.
- 2,459
- 486
Okay, this just comes from a misinterpretation of what Duality actually is.
Eternity embodying a duality, would already make him incapable of asailing his own duality, let alone the concept of duality as a whole, or the dual system in which dual exists in. So throwing terms like trans-dual, or even non-dual wouldn't apply here, since Eternity himself has been stated to be dual a dozen times. Look at his relationship to Oblivion or Entropy. And Yes, embodying an everything, being the everything itself in all it's aspects, and being incapable of going beyond said everything (Eternity can't literally transcend himself, that's completely self defeating) means you are bound to it.
Now, to tackle the feats:
Bringing up an explanation which makes something more chronologically consistent doesn't make it valid, specially with the difference in writers in between and the basically 2 decades which seperates these comics, and we do have mentions of Multi Eternity between these 2 points.
To respond to the scans:
Existing totally alone in a Void which exists beyond the totality of YOUR OWN BEING =/= transdual, and no one existing aswell in the Outside doesn't mean he's above them dawg, we literally see abstracts chilling in the Outside if they will it, they just need to function in the Multiverse.
Beginningless Beginning has been used for things which have non-linear aspects, or even things like the Cosmic Seed, you really don't have to be Transdual to have this, nor does it set a tier or anything for you, it's just flowery writing.
woow infinite solitude, grats I guess
Eternity embodies every living thing, sure, but how does that take into account Abstracts which themselves are the make up of Eternity which he can't exist without?
What would Eternity be made of if Space didn't exist? (Infinity)
What would a Multiverse be without it's Laws (TLT)
How would life evolve without Death? (Death, and technically the Phoenix aswell)
etcetera, every single Abstract plays a role in the very make up of Multi Eternity and how he functions, sure, you can say the vice versa also applies, but them being inseperable doesn't disclude any tiering.
Anyways, I think I'm going to sleep now, I really can't make a formal comment with scans (most of this is just deductive reasoning or going off your own scans) when it comes to stuff like this, which is just misinterpreting what Transduality is.
Also, you CANNOT deny that the last few Abstracts you named DO have true forms and function on every plane of existence as of now, that's why they operate on the Superflow.
Edit: I just realized the post above is literally in support of everything that was said above to an extent except the transdual part, and the last sentence, fml, I'll probably unfollow the thread so if you are interested in continuing the convo hmu on discord or go to my message wall
Eternity embodying a duality, would already make him incapable of asailing his own duality, let alone the concept of duality as a whole, or the dual system in which dual exists in. So throwing terms like trans-dual, or even non-dual wouldn't apply here, since Eternity himself has been stated to be dual a dozen times. Look at his relationship to Oblivion or Entropy. And Yes, embodying an everything, being the everything itself in all it's aspects, and being incapable of going beyond said everything (Eternity can't literally transcend himself, that's completely self defeating) means you are bound to it.
Now, to tackle the feats:
Bringing up an explanation which makes something more chronologically consistent doesn't make it valid, specially with the difference in writers in between and the basically 2 decades which seperates these comics, and we do have mentions of Multi Eternity between these 2 points.
To respond to the scans:
Existing totally alone in a Void which exists beyond the totality of YOUR OWN BEING =/= transdual, and no one existing aswell in the Outside doesn't mean he's above them dawg, we literally see abstracts chilling in the Outside if they will it, they just need to function in the Multiverse.
Beginningless Beginning has been used for things which have non-linear aspects, or even things like the Cosmic Seed, you really don't have to be Transdual to have this, nor does it set a tier or anything for you, it's just flowery writing.
woow infinite solitude, grats I guess
Eternity embodies every living thing, sure, but how does that take into account Abstracts which themselves are the make up of Eternity which he can't exist without?
What would Eternity be made of if Space didn't exist? (Infinity)
What would a Multiverse be without it's Laws (TLT)
How would life evolve without Death? (Death, and technically the Phoenix aswell)
etcetera, every single Abstract plays a role in the very make up of Multi Eternity and how he functions, sure, you can say the vice versa also applies, but them being inseperable doesn't disclude any tiering.
Anyways, I think I'm going to sleep now, I really can't make a formal comment with scans (most of this is just deductive reasoning or going off your own scans) when it comes to stuff like this, which is just misinterpreting what Transduality is.
Also, you CANNOT deny that the last few Abstracts you named DO have true forms and function on every plane of existence as of now, that's why they operate on the Superflow.
Edit: I just realized the post above is literally in support of everything that was said above to an extent except the transdual part, and the last sentence, fml, I'll probably unfollow the thread so if you are interested in continuing the convo hmu on discord or go to my message wall
- 3,687
- 3,458
le bump
- 354
- 44
- Thread starter
- #75
Sorry for been out for so long, but here I am. Yes, Eternity is not transdual in any way. Bu talking about the main topic, I'll finally contact some people to evaluate this.
- 167,690
- 76,281
Do the current Eternity and The First Firmament pages list them as transdual?
- 3,687
- 3,458
well first lets wait for a few more admins or knowladge members of marvel too give their two cents
but form the look of this
these profiles will be getting upgraded from low 1-A to 1-A
Chaos King
Death
The Brothers Yin and Yang
The LivingTribunal (classic key as the new one is a bit of an underpreformer as of late and is labled as a function of the 8th multiverse unlike the orginal who was described as the culmination of all the abstract beings)
Beyonder (Pre-Retcon)
Molecule Ma (the pre recton key)
The Never Quee
The Ultimate Ultimates (might just wana remove the second key as now it will not have reason to be there the 7th and infinity are a part of the ulitmate ultimates and the prior multiverses seem even with them)
Phoenix Force
Infinity
The Protege (when he mimiced tribunals powers)
this are all the charaters who are said to be equal or greater to eternity
but form the look of this
these profiles will be getting upgraded from low 1-A to 1-A
Chaos King
Death
The Brothers Yin and Yang
The LivingTribunal (classic key as the new one is a bit of an underpreformer as of late and is labled as a function of the 8th multiverse unlike the orginal who was described as the culmination of all the abstract beings)
Beyonder (Pre-Retcon)
Molecule Ma (the pre recton key)
The Never Quee
The Ultimate Ultimates (might just wana remove the second key as now it will not have reason to be there the 7th and infinity are a part of the ulitmate ultimates and the prior multiverses seem even with them)
Phoenix Force
Infinity
The Protege (when he mimiced tribunals powers)
this are all the charaters who are said to be equal or greater to eternity
- 3,687
- 3,458
and these two scans should be used as proof that the far shore exists in the 7th cosmos
https://twitter.com/jdanielhcm/status/1220723246116626434
Challenger
https://twitter.com/jdanielhcm/status/1220723246116626434
Challenger
Similar threads
