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J.M. DeMatteis (Marvel Cosmology Split)

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Elizio33 said:
Yes. The One Above All wasn't shown to be above Duality or Opposite. The One Below All, who represents hatred, destruction and darkness, is the opposite of the One Above All, who represents love, creation and light. Both are the same being but when it comes time to create, the One Above All all is there, while when it comes time to destroy, the One Above All becomes the One Below All.
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I still don't know why the In-Betweener is said to be the finality when it comes to dichotomies in the Four World blog. Good points, though.
 
I fully support Elizio's points on the need for an Oblivion split, since him being beyond all the other abstracts in the main cosmology canon is just weird, and it makes far more sense for him to just be equal to the LT in the 8th cosmos at his peak in the main canon.
 
Elizio33 said:
I agree with a High 1-A or High 1-A+ Oblivion based on DeMatteis's approach. Maybe Oblivion of the main continuity could be 1-A ?
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In this current standard. He would have 3 keys: Universal M-Body, True Universal Body, and Multiversal/Omniversal Form.

So the tiering would be Low 1-A, 1-A, and High 1-A. He's position right now is being treated as the Void that spins upon the invisible axis in the Defenders: Story so he would only be one or two levels at max above baseline High 1-A.

If the split does happen then probably most, if not all Abstracts caps at 1-A. So it'll probably be Low 1-A | Low 1-A | 1-A.
 
VeryGoofyToddler said:
In this current standard. He would have 3 keys: Universal M-Body, True Universal Body, and Multiversal/Omniversal Form.

So the tiering would be Low 1-A, 1-A, and High 1-A. He's position right now is being treated as the Void that spins upon the invisible axis in the Defenders: Story so he would only be one or two levels at max above baseline High 1-A.

If the split does happen then probably most, if not all Abstracts caps at 1-A. So it'll probably be Low 1-A | Low 1-A | 1-A.
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That is something that Ultima would probably need to help answer, especially as he is IIRC planning on discussing 1-A for Marvel abstracts sometime in the future.
 
Eseseso said:
That is something that Ultima would probably need to help answer, especially as he is IIRC planning on discussing 1-A for Marvel abstracts sometime in the future.
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“Sometime in the future” means definitely after GTA 6 when it comes to Ultima.

However, despite our back and forth. I do believe that he trusts me with this type of tiering. Especially since that revision isn't going to change much given its framework was mentioned before I made this thread. So, it is more plausible that this thread finishes to ease a transition.
 
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God from Seeker of the Mystery has me wondering... The differentiation between God's dreaming self and Dreamer... What if Adam Ka'dmon's statement about whomever can threaten Adam may be a threat to The Divine Creator isn't applicable to the Dreamer, but hirself within the Dream ? It'd coincide and be consistent with how just possessing the Nexus allows one to be one with God as well. There's plenty of implications about how God does in-fact exist within the dream, playing every role within it, so the idea makes sense. Plus that Vessel as seen with God's profile of Seeker of the Mystery can have weaknesses of sorts such as death and whatnot and not be an antifeat.
 
The_2nd_Existential_Seed said:
God from Seeker of the Mystery has me wondering... The differentiation between God's dreaming self and Dreamer... What if Adam Ka'dmon's statement about whomever can threaten Adam may be a threat to The Divine Creator isn't applicable to the Dreamer, but hirself within the Dream ? It'd coincide and be consistent with how just possessing the Nexus allows one to be one with God as well. There's plenty of implications about how God does in-fact exist within the dream, playing every role within it, so the idea makes sense. Plus that Vessel as seen with God's profile of Seeker of the Mystery can have weaknesses of sorts such as death and whatnot and not be an antifeat.
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Good point, I had this idea for a very long time that everything is a dream within a dream. This is explained by the Messiah that all Souls are ignorant of their true nature and that some sort of avatar had to come to wake them up. This God, in his purest form, exists beyond anything while his aspect is more intractable within Creation ie God dreaming of himself in the dream.

When Souls go to the stage of being ouly energy only facing God’s love they technically become God as they dream of the Cosmology below as the Quantum Sea being where the worlds come from that same Sea of Love. Then the Avatar finally wakes them up and at that moment they realize they were God dreaming of it the whole time. This is why an aspect of God can merge those Soul to become one with God with rrealization instead of them being stuck dreaming in the cycle of Karma constantly dreaming of the their view of Creation.
 
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VeryGoofyToddler said:
Good point, I had this idea for a very long time that everything is a dream within a dream. This is explained by the Messiah that all Souls are ignorant of their true nature and that some sort of avatar had to come to wake them up. This God, in his purest form, exists beyond anything while his aspect is more intractable within Creation ie God dreaming of himself in the dream.

When Souls go to the stage of being ouly energy only facing God’s love they technically become God as they dream of the Cosmology below as the Quantum Sea being where the worlds come from that same Sea of Love. Then the Avatar finally wakes them up and at that moment they realize they were God dreaming of it the whole time. This is why an aspect of God can merge those Soul to become one with God with rrealization instead of them being stuck dreaming in the cycle of Karma constantly dreaming of the their view of Creation.
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Agreed. Another point I had in mind after re-reading everything was how the dream took shape. It wasn't directly from The Divine Creator hirself, they did it through hir staff, the very same staff that was absorbed by Scrier in Peter Parker Annual 1999. I do believe this staff is harnessing the power of The Divine Creator hirself, because it was through this very staff that The Divine Creator's dream took form/shape (the dream taking form/shape due to the Staff isn't mere speculation, the scan explicitly states this). This makes High 1-A+ for the God Tiers all the more blatantly obvious.
 
The_2nd_Existential_Seed said:
Agreed. Another point I had in mind after re-reading everything was how the dream took shape. It wasn't directly from The Divine Creator hirself, they did it through hir staff, the very same staff that was absorbed by Scrier in Peter Parker Annual 1999. I do believe this staff is harnessing the power of The Divine Creator hirself, because it was through this very staff that The Divine Creator's dream took form/shape (the dream taking form/shape due to the Staff isn't mere speculation, the scan explicitly states this). This makes High 1-A+ for the God Tiers all the more blatantly obvious.
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Possibly. It's not a bad way of looking at it.
 
VeryGoofyToddler said:
Good point, I had this idea for a very long time that everything is a dream within a dream. This is explained by the Messiah that all Souls are ignorant of their true nature and that some sort of avatar had to come to wake them up. This God, in his purest form, exists beyond anything while his aspect is more intractable within Creation ie God dreaming of himself in the dream.

When Souls go to the stage of being ouly energy only facing God’s love they technically become God as they dream of the Cosmology below as the Quantum Sea being where the worlds come from that same Sea of Love. Then the Avatar finally wakes them up and at that moment they realize they were God dreaming of it the whole time. This is why an aspect of God can merge those Soul to become one with God with rrealization instead of them being stuck dreaming in the cycle of Karma constantly dreaming of the their view of Creation.
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I am sorry for intervening on a marvel CRT, but isn't that more or less buddhism? Or atleast going by Journey to the west rendition of it. It even has the whole "Everything is a dream by god, and only by waking up from that dream, you can "join" with god once again".
 
Livinmeme said:
I am sorry for intervening on a marvel CRT, but isn't that more or less buddhism? Or atleast going by Journey to the west rendition of it. It even has the whole "Everything is a dream by god, and only by waking up from that dream, you can "join" with god once again".
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Buddhism and Hinduism both believe in a materialistic world full of desire as illusionary and in some cases, both adhere to the name “Maya” to coin that of the reality we live in, which is full of ignorance and distraction.

That's where they part, Hinduism believes in the doctrine of Brahman, or Ultimate Reality. This essentially is what the Divine Creator truly is, an all-encompassing, preceding, and ultimate source of everything, not unlike Buddhism's ontological approach to the Dharmakaya, or in terms of being: Adi-Buddha

However, Buddhism believes in the doctrine of emptiness or Śūnyatā. There are two ways of linking it:
  • If we were to go with the Advaita Vedanta teaching then we can adhere to the doctrine that Brahman is Nirguna(without parts) which coincides with the ontological approach of the Dharmakaya especially from Mahayana Buddhism, that emptiness pervades all things and the ultimate true body gives rise to all phenomena and is the source of the dharma.

  • However, there are some other parts. While Advaita Vedanta believes in a non-dual Parabrahman or God, this cannot be said for another teaching such as Dvita Vedanta belief of the Saguna Brahman(with parts) which in a way deters from a 0 rating due to having parts breaks the rule of divine immutability. The same can be said for the Dharmakaya or Adi-Budhha. In some Buddhism doesn't adhere to an ontological Reality, but rather a consciousness part of the mind that people can get eventually, as opposed to a level of reality that needs to break free from all conception. To add to that Adi-Budhha as primordial Buddha representing the sky and the cosmos being the very true essence of people can achieve is not a universal view. Rather, some beliefs deter that Adi-Buddha isn't primordial but rather the first Buddha to turn in the ages and not a transcendental being.
Either way, Hinduism and Buddhism share lots of similarities which is obvious since the former came first and most of Buddhism takes some sort of inspiration without the need for a Creator entity. Regardless, the Divine Creator can be seen as the Nirguna Brahman or Dharmakaya equivalent thus 0.
 
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VeryGoofyToddler said:
Buddhism and Hinduism both believe in a materialistic world full of desire as illusionary and in some cases, both adhere to the name “Maya” to coin that of the reality we live in, which is full of ignorance and distraction.

That's where they part, Hinduism believes in the doctrine of Brahman, or Ultimate Reality. This essentially is what the Divine Creator truly is, an all-encompassing, preceding, and ultimate source of everything, not unlike Buddhism's ontological approach to the Dharmakaya, or in terms of being: Adi-Budduha.

However, Buddhism believes in the doctrine of emptiness or Śūnyatā. There are two ways of linking it:
  • If we were to go with the Advaita Vedanta teaching then we can adhere to the doctrine that Brahman is Nirguna(without parts) which coincides with the ontological approach of the Dharmakaya especially from Mahayana Buddhism, that emptiness pervades all things and the ultimate true body gives rise to all phenomena and is the source of the dharma.

  • However, there are some other parts. While Advaita Vedanta believes in a non-dual Parabrahman or God, this cannot be said for another teaching such as Dvita Vedanta belief of the Saguna Brahman(with parts) which in a way deters from a 0 rating due to having parts breaks the rule of divine immutability. The same can be said for the Dharmakaya or Adi-Budhha. In some Buddhism doesn't adhere to an ontological Reality, but rather a consciousness part of the mind that people can get eventually, as opposed to a level of reality that needs to break free from all conception. To add to that Adi-Budhha as primordial Buddha representing the sky and the cosmos being the very true essence of people can achieve is not a universal view. Rather, some beliefs deter that Adi-Buddha isn't primordial but rather the first Buddha to turn in the ages and not a transcendental being.
Either way, Hinduism and Buddhism share lots of similarities which is obvious since the former came first and most of Buddhism takes some sort of inspiration without the need for a Creator entity. Regardless, the Divine Creator can be seen as the Nirguna Brahman or Dharmakaya equivalent thus 0.
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Thanks for the response, this humble junior will leave
 
I also strongly support splitting Oblivion to DeMatteis' interpretation and that of Marvel Comics' editorial department. 🙏
 
If the split happens, would Oblivion and the One Above All be the only characters with keys or would there be others?
 
Elizio33 said:
Personally, I think you should. I mean, if the split were to happen, it would be better to include all the characters scaling from it.
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Yeah, but I did agree with @Eseseso that some stories (Defenders) can be left alone. Though, if he changes his mind in that regard then I think including Eternity is a decent enough option.

Given we’re already getting a Maya profile, she could just be the stand-in for Eternity. However, if anyone wants to contribute their thoughts on whether or not Eternity should or shouldn't stay. I'm down to listen.
 
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So after reading through Fantastic Four Volume 3 in order to gather evidence for Franklin's upgrade, I noticed something that may be problematic for this thread's purposes and wanted to shed some light on it...

Tiamut talks about how all of Reality is nothing more than a Dream which he had a hand in shaping. He also mentioned the Dream of Existence came first before all of existence, which lines up with how The Divine Creator's Creation Story was, because the concept of the Dream was first before everything else.

Whether this changes anything or not (or just upgrades the God tier's level of High 1-A) remains to be seen.
 
The_2nd_Existential_Seed said:
So after reading through Fantastic Four Volume 3 in order to gather evidence for Franklin's upgrade, I noticed something that may be problematic for this thread's purposes and wanted to shed some light on it...

Tiamut talks about how all of Reality is nothing more than a Dream which he had a hand in shaping. He also mentioned the Dream of Existence came first before all of existence, which lines up with how The Divine Creator's Creation Story was, because the concept of the Dream was first before everything else.

Whether this changes anything or not (or just upgrades the God tier's level of High 1-A) remains to be seen.
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I don’t think that really changes anything because we don’t know if it meant to direct it towards the Divine Creator or just an old depiction of the One Above All. Creation being a Dream isn’t DeMatteis exclusive.
 
I have a genuine question:

DeMatteis stated essentially that everytime he mentions God in his stories, it's not a ficitonal character but actually God, and your interpretation of that depends on your personal vision of God. He's mentioned this quite a few times, not just in the Word of God but interviews on his version of God. Doesn't this imply that his definition of God is effectively every possible interpretation of God, which logically would include the popular absolutist and hyper absolutist views on hir/him/her/them/whatever pronouns you use (since obviously we're not going to go around asking people what their visions of God is to do this so the simplest thing is just gathering popular depictions of God) ?

If the answer is Yes, the Dream Self version of The Divine Creator and other versions (as well as every other being referred to as God in his stories,which would include The Divine Presence, Seeker into the Mystery's God, Mercy's God, and I believe Augusta Wind's God as well) , would undeniably be High 1-A+ at a bare minimum.
 
The_2nd_Existential_Seed said:
If the answer is Yes, the Dream Self version of The Divine Creator and other versions (as well as every other being referred to as God in his stories,which would include The Divine Presence, Seeker into the Mystery's God, Mercy's God, and I believe Augusta Wind's God as well) , would undeniably be High 1-A+ at a bare minimum.
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As he says it “it’s all the same to him.”
 
Bump. Okay, so I read practically every JM DeMatteis Comic when it comes to Marvel's side of things. Here's what I found that hasn't been discussed:

  • Doctor Strange has an extremely blatant High 1-A at minimum feat (Sustaining every level of Creation/The Dream from becoming the Nothing) , which scales to the top-god tiers of note in DeMatteis' scale, as he's blatantly weaker than The Scrier, The Other, and Galactus, as he and Silver Surfer couldn't even begin to match a variant of Galactus The Other made in Silver Surfer's mindscape and was forced to flee.
  • Chtlon is described as the underbelly Creation itself, a being that fundamentally is unable to be named.
  • Silver Surfer has a lot of power in DeMatteis' versions and he (alongside Ben Grimm) could fight off the Cosmic Messiah who was actively using using the Quantum Field against them.
  • Galactus is portrayed as an ineffable, indescribable, inconceivable entity beyond what we can comprehend (It breaks the fourth wall to make this point)
  • The Divine Creator is noted to be a God beyond our Imagination by Oblivion (Again, breaks the fourth wall to make this point).
Whose stronger between Eternity and Oblivion in this version ? I'm completely uncertain. Both are described at the peak of the Dream, at least Cosmology wise (Adam's statement about predating the Cosmic Abstracts means the Men of Lineage are at least are superior to them scaling wise)
 
The_2nd_Existential_Seed said:
Bump. Okay, so I read practically every JM DeMatteis Comic when it comes to Marvel's side of things. Here's what I found that hasn't been discussed:

  • Doctor Strange has an extremely blatant High 1-A at minimum feat (Sustaining every level of Creation/The Dream from becoming the Nothing) , which scales to the top-god tiers of note in DeMatteis' scale, as he's blatantly weaker than The Scrier, The Other, and Galactus, as he and Silver Surfer couldn't even begin to match a variant of Galactus The Other made in Silver Surfer's mindscape and was forced to flee.
  • Chtlon is described as the underbelly Creation itself, a being that fundamentally is unable to be named.
  • Silver Surfer has a lot of power in DeMatteis' versions and he (alongside Ben Grimm) could fight off the Cosmic Messiah who was actively using using the Quantum Field against them.
  • Galactus is portrayed as an ineffable, indescribable, inconceivable entity beyond what we can comprehend (It breaks the fourth wall to make this point)
  • The Divine Creator is noted to be a God beyond our Imagination by Oblivion (Again, breaks the fourth wall to make this point).
Whose stronger between Eternity and Oblivion in this version ? I'm completely uncertain. Both are described at the peak of the Dream, at least Cosmology wise (Adam's statement about predating the Cosmic Abstracts means the Men of Lineage are at least are superior to them scaling wise)
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Given what Ultima said. Everything High 1-A+ should be downgraded to High 1-A. Except for Oblivion.
 
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