Marvel Comics: 1-A upgrades

[Elizio33]

Thank you for the replies. Is it fine if we apply his conclusions then?

@Elizio33

Which pages would you need to revise based on this thread, and in what manners?

Eternity

The Never Queen

The First Firmament

The Beyonders

Molecule Man

If I'm not wrong, the 1-A Tier comes from Eighth Multiverse Eternity because he encompasses the Far Shore. It should removed and Eternity (Eighth Multiverse) and every character scaling to him should be Low 1-A instead.

 

[Veronica]

Eternity

The Never Queen

The First Firmament

The Beyonders

Molecule Man

If I'm not wrong, the 1-A Tier comes from Eighth Multiverse Eternity because he encompasses the Far Shore. It should removed and Eternity (Eighth Multiverse) and every character scaling to him should be Low 1-A instead.

Also The Lost One from the recent comic issue

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Eternity

The Never Queen

The First Firmament

The Beyonders

Molecule Man

If I'm not wrong, the 1-A Tier comes from Eighth Multiverse Eternity because he encompasses the Far Shore. It should removed and Eternity (Eighth Multiverse) and every character scaling to him should be Low 1-A instead.

Beyonders and Molecule Man should remain the same or at least with the possibility of 1-A. Everyone else should downgrade. Although Molecule Man right now is a literal Molecule.

 

[Elizio33]

Beyonders and Molecule Man should remain the same or at least with the possibility of 1-A. Everyone else should downgrade. Although Molecule Man right now is a literal Molecule.

1-A for the Beyonders? I don't think they qualify for such a tier since they are restricted by time. Dr. Doom's statement from Hickman's stories that the Beyonders are linear beings restricted to their own sequential timeline no longer seems like an excuse (PIS) to justify the loss of the Beyonders since Al Ewing's recent stories portray them as linear beings who cannot handle non-linear threats like "The Enigma". Even Al Ewing's Venom series portrays them as linear beings with their opposite, the Kings in Black like Knull, being non-linear.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

1-A for the Beyonders? I don't think they qualify for such a tier since they are restricted by time. Dr. Doom's statement from Hickman's stories that the Beyonders are linear beings restricted to their own sequential timeline no longer seems like an excuse (PIS) to justify the loss of the Beyonders since Al Ewing's recent stories portray them as linear beings who cannot handle non-linear threats. like "The Enigma". Even Al Ewing's Venom series portrays them as linear beings with their opposite, the Kings in Black like Knull, being non-linear.

“Linearity” shouldn't be the judging factor for tiers. It's just a weakness that they possess that does not degrade them of their powers. They still are above the Cosmos and All-Death as well as the archetypes of the previous Cosmos and the Anti-All. They had contained the “Egnima” for a while and they were only surpassed by the White Phoenix in the White Hot Room and The One Above All.

 

[NHTkenshin2]

Currently writing a response here, probably will be ready by Thursday. Its not a debunk or anything, moreso discussing the actual nature of the Far Shore and its connections to the Outside. As well as arguments for Eternity and FFs scaling to it regardless of exteriority.

 

[NHTkenshin2]

Alright.

While the statements i said still hold true, that being that The Far Shore is truly the Multiversal afterlife and is where the consciousnesses of Multiverses go after death.

Promotional material has also stated that when Eternity called out for help against FF, he called out the other Multiversal embodiments, he called them from the “Outside”. Not actually the Far Shore (but stay with me here)

SECRET EMPIRE wreaks havoc on the Ultimates! As Steve Rogers makes his move, the team finds itself on the wrong side of his plans. With an existential threat in control of Earth, Galactus might be the planet’s last hope — but the Lifebringer has problems of his own! He’s facing the ultimate battle with his oldest enemy: Ego, the Living Planet! Meanwhile, the Eternity War ramps up as the Maker and the High Evolutionary join forces! They have a plan for the Multiverse — but whose side are they truly on? And as things get ever more cosmic, Galactus gathers his forces against the Dark Celestials for the final battle! Can Eternity withstand the might of the First Firmament, or does the embodiment of everything need help…from Outside? Plus: The Ultimates meet — the Ultimates?! Collecting ULTIMATES 2 (2016) #7-9 and #100.

This statement here:

"I can feel you... Out there... You've been always out there... To... To me... I saw them. I saw The Others. On the Far Shore -- where nothing dies -- they waited for the call. And now... Now the call goes forth! To me -- -- my Ultimate! And from across the gulf of death... The multiverses assemble."

Could've actually not been stated by Eternity, it was stated by the Shaper of Worlds, after being on the Far Shore and seeing the Others, who exist in the Outside, however one could also interpret it as having come from Eternity

Which brings us to two interpretations:

• The Far Shore is a Multiversal afterlife, and the edge of the Multiverse, but its inhabitants are not limited to The Far Shore, and can enter the “Outside”

This interpretation is built on the fact that we have seen Lifebringer Galactus, and well, The Others, enter and roam in the Outside, which we can assume is above the Far Shore in scope

As that the depiction of the Outside, based on our observations so far, suggests that it exists entirely beyond the Multiverse, as demonstrated in the Loki: Agent of Asgard comic series. In this context, Loki perceives the stories of the gods as fictional while conversing with Those Who Sit Above In Shadows, who are feeding on these stories from the Outside. This establishes a clear distinction between the Outside and the Omniverse, indicating a sense of superiority of the former over the latter, thus also the edge of the Omniverse, the Far Shore

This interpretation is somewhat supported by Al Ewings agreement with a fan-made map on twitter, that seems to place the Others, including Eternity as Extra-Far Shore entities

• The Far Shore is the Outside

Pretty simple. Taking to Elizio's arguments into account, the Others, who were known to exist in the Outside, seem to have come from the Far Shore to battle the FF.

The Outside is located beyond the entire Multiverse and possesses a certain degree of reality/fiction superiority over the Multiverse, as demonstrated by TWSAIS consuming the tales of the gods from outside the Multiverse. (Loki: Agent of Asgard #17) This aligns with the scans of Galactus observing Eternity's physical manifestation while sitting in the Outside. (Ultimates Vol. 1 #5)

The Far Shore is also another empty void that lies beyond everything (Defenders: Beyond Vol. 3 #3) and also perceives the stories of the Multiverse as fictional. (Avengers #676) This would shed light on why the Others, who were confirmed to exist in the Outside at the time, emerged from the Far Shore.

Implying it is actually possible that both of these ***** were actually the same all along, or possible that they were not:

1. Interpretation 1: Eternity maintains his 1-A status as he embodies the Far Shore. The Shaper on the Far Shore witnessed the emergence of the Others, which suggests that they may have come from a place visible from the Far Shore, i.e., the Outside. However, it does not necessarily mean that the Others emerged from the Far Shore itself.
2. Interpretation 2: The Far Shore and the Outside are the same thing. The Others emerged from the Far Shore/Outside. TWSAIS, GoS Loki and two others i will cover exist within the Outside and perceive the stories of the Omniverse as fictional, similar to the Far Shore's view of them as a wall of comics. Eternity and FF also maintain their 1-A status as they exist within the Outside, where Lifebringer Galactus, whose power comes from a power source as infinite as the Multiverse.

Yes, 1-A. Our Low 1-A comes from the dimensionality of the Multiverse, which we accept to extend to Low 1-A.

The Outside being the Far Shore would imply a good amount of things:

• The Far Shore/Outside transcends all levels of dream and reality in the Multiverse | Defenders Vol. 3 #3
• the Far Shore/Outside are explicitly stated to be the literal abstract art that makes up the Low 1-A Marvel Multiverse. Implying R/F qualitative superiority over the rest of the cosmology | Take a Journey Through the Afterlifes of ‘Valkyrie: Jane Foster’ #3 with the Artists Who Created Them
• Which is consistent with it being seen the Far Shore/Outside viewing reality as a wall of fictional comics | Avengers #676

Inhabitants of the Outside/Far Shore also view the Multiverse as fictional, as i have already explained numerous times:

• Those Who Sit Above In Shadows feed on the stories of the Gods from outside | Loki: Agent of Asgard #16/#17
• Loki entering the Outside was capable of holding the stories of the gods in his hand. Free and unfettered from said stories | Loki: Agent of Asgard #16
• Loki describes the Outside as outside of “it all",which would be in reference to his statements of all the stories in the Omniverse | Loki: Agent of Asgard #14/#16
• Glorian states the outside is outside of the Multiverse and all its stories | Defenders: Beyond #4
  • I should also bring up that the Outside was stated to be the farthest place of reality in this scan, showing further comparability to the Far Shore
• The Queen of nevers and Eternity are capable of narrating the stories of Silver Surfer and Dawn. The Queen of Nevers has also stated that their stories is unlike all other, implying no story exists beyond her realm of influence, also implying all stories in the Omniverse, and by extension, the Omniverse itself, are inferior to her existence. | Silver Surfer Vol. 7 #11/#14

What does this imply? It has been established that beings who exist outside of the Multiverse are detached from all the stories within it, essentially considering them to be fictional.

This is demonstrated by the fact that Eternity, the Queen of Nevers, and others have been observed narrating the tales of the Multiverse, indicating their reality/fiction superiority over it. As these beings are inhabitants of the Outside, it suggests that their vantage point allows them to perceive and understand the Multiverse's narratives and concepts from a higher perspective.

This suggests that these individuals exist in a manner comparable to the relationship between authors and the real world. Just as authors transcend their stories due to their existence in the real world, these individuals possess a higher status due to their position in the Outside and their detachment from the stories within the Multiverse.

Now, the queen herself is a WHOLE other can of worms i have no idea if i want to open here, considering that the Outside (called in this story as the Land-That-Couldn't-Be-Shouldn't-Be, which is still the Outside, a place outside all stories) is called in that issue to be a place of unchecked possiblity (Defenders: Beyond #4)

Now people, remind me if i am wrong here, but “Unchecked possiblity" is...still possiblity, right? And who is possibility? Thats right, good ol' Never Queen, (Silver Surfer 2014 #2) the summation of all possiblity, with her death alone being capable of collapsing all of possiblity itself. (Silver Surfer 2014 #3) Essentially collapsing the entire 1-A Far Shore/Outside with her in the process

The relationship between the Outside and the Never Queen is further implied by Taaia referring to The Outside as the “Kingdom of Never" (Defenders: Beyond #4)

How would anyone scale to the Queen? We know that Eternity is Never Queens husband, (Silver Surfer 2014 #3) we know that FF is older and stronger then Eternity, which could possibly imply that FFs age has something to do with his strength. And well, we kinda already accept Eternity and Never Queens comparability (i think?), considering she, Eternity and Entropy make up all of true existence (Fantastic Four Vol. 6 #44)

Conclusions​

Both interpretations suggest that Eternity remains at his 1-A rating.

Even if these interpretations are flawed, the fact that Eternity exists in the Outside/Far Shore implies Eternities transcendence. As also demonstrated by Eternity and Never Queen reading the stories of the Multiverse, as that they transcend these stories and possess a higher level of existence.

The Never Queen also represents all possibilities, while the Far Shore/Outside represents a realm of unchecked possibility. This suggests that the Queen either embodies a part of the Far Shore/Outside (allowing other Multiverses to exist) or embodies the entirety of it. Both of these resulting in 1-A Never Queen nonetheless

Sorry if this post seems lazy, as that i am still pretty busy.

 

[Eseseso]

Not sure if this is a derail or not but if this passes, shouldn't God Emperor Doom be at least: "Low 1-C, likely 1-A" for having a huge portion of the Beyonders' power?

 

[NHTkenshin2]

Not sure if this is a derail or not but if this passes, shouldn't God Emperor Doom be at least: "Low 1-C, likely 1-A" for having a huge portion of the Beyonders' power?

Derail. Yes, solid 1-A even

 

[Eseseso]

Derail. Yes, solid 1-A even

You believe in the good word of 1-A Doom?

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Alright.

While the statements i said still hold true, that being that The Far Shore is truly the Multiversal afterlife and is where the consciousnesses of Multiverses go after death.

Yes, however it seems more like you're playing Devil’s Advocate. This seems to go against if Eternity does contain the Far Shore.

Promotional material has also stated that when Eternity called out for help against FF, he called out the other Multiversal embodiments, he called them from the “Outside”. Not actually the Far Shore (but stay with me here)


This statement here:


Could've actually not been stated by Eternity, it was stated by the Shaper of Worlds, after being on the Far Shore and seeing the Others, who exist in the Outside, however one could also interpret it as having come from Eternity

Shaper words were very clear. He was on the Outside and “beyond that” was the Far Shore. There isn't a mistake in wording to suggest a different interpretation.

Which brings us to two interpretations:

• The Far Shore is a Multiversal afterlife, and the edge of the Multiverse, but its inhabitants are not limited to The Far Shore, and can enter the “Outside”

This interpretation is built on the fact that we have seen Lifebringer Galactus, and well, The Others, enter and roam in the Outside, which we can assume is above the Far Shore in scope

As that the depiction of the Outside, based on our observations so far, suggests that it exists entirely beyond the Multiverse, as demonstrated in the Loki: Agent of Asgard comic series. In this context, Loki perceives the stories of the gods as fictional while conversing with Those Who Sit Above In Shadows, who are feeding on these stories from the Outside. This establishes a clear distinction between the Outside and the Omniverse, indicating a sense of superiority of the former over the latter, thus also the edge of the Omniverse, the Far Shore

This interpretation is somewhat supported by Al Ewings agreement with a fan-made map on twitter, that seems to place the Others, including Eternity as Extra-Far Shore entities

Your first claim doesn't really make sense. It is the afterlife yet it exists in the Multiverse? The Abstract having entered the Outside does not correlate to anything. From Al Ewing's writing the only thing above the Far Shore is the Mysteries.

The Far Shore is already mentioned to be beyond it. What you suggest would have to be under the basis that the Outside is part of a system beyond the Far Shore. There is only the Mystery for that. Given the Beyond realm also is beyond the Outside and that's the start of the Mystery.


The Map also states the Omniverse in disjunction to Eternity despite being called the Omniverse on several occasions. That also assumes that Void is the same as the Outside, given Knull is the prime representative. It doesn't look like it suggests much. Agreeing with things from the fan also isn't headcanon, that shouldn't be a basis of reasoning especially when the comic doesn't tie into it. It could be Al Ewing saying you have the idea not that it's an exact mirror of his vision when making the Cosmology. From the looks of it doesn't look like Eternity contains it.

• The Far Shore is the Outside

Pretty simple. Taking to Elizio's arguments into account, the Others, who were known to exist in the Outside, seem to have come from the Far Shore to battle the FF.

Yes because Eternity specifically called for his Ultimates. The story is intertwined and connected and what lay beyond the Outside is where everything began “The Far Shore.”

The Outside is located beyond the entire Multiverse and possesses a certain degree of reality/fiction superiority over the Multiverse, as demonstrated by TWSAIS consuming the tales of the gods from outside the Multiverse. (Loki: Agent of Asgard #17) This aligns with the scans of Galactus observing Eternity's physical manifestation while sitting in Outside. (Ultimates Vol. 1 #5)

Has no relevance to distinguish the two locations. Both are supposedly outside the Multiverse.

The Far Shore is also another empty void that lies beyond everything (Defenders: Beyond Vol. 3 #3) and also perceives the stories of the Multiverse as fictional. (Avengers #676) This would shed light on why the Others, who were confirmed to exist in the Outside at the time, emerged from the Far Shore.

Doesn't really mean much. Not only that but the scan does not suggest stories are fictional. They're passing through stories as time passes through. Being “Void” just means it's devoided of materials or concepts.

Implying it is actually possible that both of these ***** were actually the same all along, or possible that they were not:

1. Interpretation 1: Eternity maintains his 1-A status as he embodies the Far Shore. The Shaper on the Far Shore witnessed the emergence of the Others, which suggests that they may have come from a place visible from the Far Shore, i.e., the Outside. However, it does not necessarily mean that the Others emerged from the Far Shore itself.

This point doesn't make sense. This is a lot of assumption and you need more grounded evidence for it. He embodies the Multiverse, not the Far Shore. If you suggest the Outside is the “visible aspect” of what we can see then you're admitting that it's bigger than the Outside. The wording did say they came from it when they were called and the only place they could be is the Far Shore or maybe the Quarry after the newest storyline.

1. Interpretation 2: The Far Shore and the Outside are the same thing. The Others emerged from the Far Shore/Outside. TWSAIS, GoS Loki and two others i will cover exist within the Outside and perceive the stories of the Omniverse as fictional, similar to the Far Shore's view of them as a wall of comics. Eternity and FF also maintain their 1-A status as they exist within the Outside, where Lifebringer Galactus, whose power comes from a power source as infinite as the Multiverse.

These points don't link up. Not to mention the Comics and Wiki place them as separate. I don't know where this conclusion came from.

Yes, 1-A. Our Low 1-A comes from the dimensionality of the Multiverse, which we accept to extend to Low 1-A.

The Outside being the Far Shore would imply a good amount of things:

• The Far Shore/Outside transcends all levels of dream and reality in the Multiverse | Defenders Vol. 3 #3
• the Far Shore/Outside are explicitly stated to be the literal abstract art that makes up the Low 1-A Marvel Multiverse. Implying R/F qualitative superiority over the rest of the cosmology | Take a Journey Through the Afterlifes of ‘Valkyrie: Jane Foster’ #3 with the Artists Who Created Them
• Which is consistent with it being seen the Far Shore/Outside viewing reality as a wall of fictional comics | Avengers #676

Inhabitants of the Outside/Far Shore also view the Multiverse as fictional, as i have already explained numerous times:

• Those Who Sit Above In Shadows feed on the stories of the Gods from outside | Loki: Agent of Asgard #16/#17
• Loki entering the Outside was capable of holding the stories of the gods in his hand. Free and unfettered from said stories | Loki: Agent of Asgard #16
• Loki describes the Outside as outside of “it all",which would be in reference to his statements of all the stories in the Omniverse | Loki: Agent of Asgard #14/#16
• Glorian states the outside is outside of the Multiverse and all its stories | Defenders: Beyond #4
  • I should also bring up that the Outside was stated to be the farthest place of reality in this scan, showing further comparability to the Far Shore
• The Queen of nevers and Eternity are capable of narrating the stories of Silver Surfer and Dawn. The Queen of Nevers has also stated that their stories is unlike all other, implying no story exists beyond her realm of influence, also implying all stories in the Omniverse, and by extension, the Omniverse itself, are inferior to her existence. | Silver Surfer Vol. 7 #11/#14

I'm not in it for the implication but this seems fine.

What does this imply? It has been established that beings who exist outside of the Multiverse are detached from all the stories within it, essentially considering them to be fictional.

There is the levels of fiction. Most time this “fiction” is referenced to higher beings viewing lower objects. If you were above Eternity and you too.

This is demonstrated by the fact that Eternity, the Queen of Nevers, and others have been observed narrating the tales of the Multiverse, indicating their reality/fiction superiority over it. As these beings are inhabitants of the Outside, it suggests that their vantage point allows them to perceive and understand the Multiverse's narratives and concepts from a higher perspective.

Narrative tales are talking about what happens in the Multiverse. It's not a META-level feat or anything groundbreaking in the sense of fictional awareness. Their relationship with the Multiverse is that they're separate and detached from it. You mention from a “higher perspective” which is common between beings that are higher. Remove the “vantage point” and allow them to come into the Multiverse and let's see how different a perception is.

This suggests that these individuals exist in a manner comparable to the relationship between authors and the real world. Just as authors transcend their stories due to their existence in the real world, these individuals possess a higher status due to their position in the Outside and their detachment from the stories within the Multiverse.

Authors transcend their work because they are real as opposed to their work. Put them in a fictional Universe with the same power they have in reality then you'll see no difference.

Now, the queen herself is a WHOLE other can of worms i have no idea if i want to open here, considering that the Outside (called in this story as the Land-That-Couldn't-Be-Shouldn't-Be, which is still the Outside, a place outside all stories) is called in that issue to be a place of unchecked possiblity (Defenders: Beyond #4)

Now people, remind me if i am wrong here, but “Unchecked possiblity" is...still possiblity, right? And who is possibility? Thats right, good ol' Never Queen, (Silver Surfer 2014 #2) the summation of all possiblity, with her death alone being capable of collapsing all of possiblity itself. (Silver Surfer 2014 #3) Essentially collapsing the entire 1-A Far Shore/Outside with her in the process

Her relationship with these realms is far unclear. This is just a bold statement to test how important Never Queen is.

The relationship between the Outside and the Never Queen is further implied by Taaia referring to The Outside as the “Kingdom of Never" (Defenders: Beyond #4)

The Abyss is not referenced in the same manner as the Outside. The Beyond is above the Void, as the White Room transcends the Beyond. Underneath the White Hot Room is the Abyss and a way to the Kingdom of Never which may or not exist in the Outside during the Defenders: Beyond run

How would anyone scale to the Queen? We know that Eternity is Never Queens husband, (Silver Surfer 2014 #3) we know that FF is older and stronger then Eternity, which could possibly imply that FFs age has something to do with his strength. And well, we kinda already accept Eternity and Never Queens comparability (i think?), considering she, Eternity and Entropy make up all of true existence (Fantastic Four Vol. 6 #44)

This isn't relevant.

Conclusions​

Both interpretations suggest that Eternity remains at his 1-A rating.

“Interpretation” that has lots of inconclusive detail and that doesn't link much. You assumed a lot here and it doesn't fully connect.

Even if these interpretations are flawed, the fact that Eternity exists in the Outside/Far Shore implies Eternities transcendence. As also demonstrated by Eternity and Never Queen reading the stories of the Multiverse, as tthey transcend these stories and possess a higher level of existence.

That would probably not tier anything up. If Eternity is Low 1-A then Far Shore would just be Low 1-A+, possibly 1-A. If we do take the notion it's beyond Eternity then he doesn't scale to it. Low 1-A is fine for Eternity.

The Never Queen also represents all possibilities, while the Far Shore/Outside represents a realm of unchecked possibility. This suggests that the Queen either embodies a part of the Far Shore/Outside (allowing other Multiverses to exist) or embodies the entirety of it. Both of these resulting in 1-A Never Queen nonetheless

“Part of it” sounds more feasible.

Sorry if this post seems lazy, as that i am still pretty busy.

You did good.

 

[NHTkenshin2]

Yes, however it seems more like you're playing Devil’s Advocate. This seems to go against if Eternity does contain the Far Shore.

It would not، assuming the embodiment of existence embodies a space which is the edge of existence on a space that is claimed to be the edge of existence, where the consciousnesses of dead, broken multiverses exist. Is certainly not contradictory to Eternity containing the Far Shore

I do want to preface something real quick, i do not agree with either interpretations (although i am leaning towards the second more) i am simply starting a discussion to come to a conclusion.

Your first claim doesn't really make sense. It is the afterlife yet it exists in the Multiverse?

I mean, it could. Why would it being an Afterlife contradict that precisely?

The Far Shore is already mentioned to be beyond it. What you suggest would have to be under the basis that the Outside is part of a system beyond the Far Shore. There is only the Mystery for that. Given the Beyond realm also is beyond the Outside and that's the start of the Mystery.

Which is exactly why i lean towards interpretation 2. Shaper falls into the Outside, and sees them, on the Far Shore

Both are the same thing

The Map also states the Omniverse in disjunction to Eternity despite being called the Omniverse on several occasions.

Cant say i fully get you here.

But from what i am getting, you are suggesting that Eternity and the Omniverse are the same thing? If so, no. Eternity and the Omniverse are certainly not the same thing. I imagine the confusion comes from Al Ewing using the term Omniverse synonymously with Multiverse, however, even one of the Authors of that Databook explicitly came out and distinguished between the two.

That also assumes that Void is the same as the Outside, given Knull is the prime representative.

Welp, judging by the new Venom chapters, it might not be that much of a stretch to assume that Knull does indeed predate the Multiverse.

It doesn't look like it suggests much. Agreeing with things from the fan also isn't headcanon, that shouldn't be a basis of reasoning especially when the comic doesn't tie into it. It could be Al Ewing saying you have the idea not that it's an exact mirror of his vision when making the Cosmology. From the looks of it doesn't look like Eternity contains it.

Makes sense.

Has no relevance to distinguish the two locations. Both are supposedly outside the Multiverse.

Im simply showing the similarities

Not only that but the scan does not suggest stories are fictional.

Its a wall of comics, with each comic representing a universe, combine that with the Loki stuff, and there is a VERY good case to be made that all of these stories/universes are fictional from that perspective

Even the cover of the issue gives further implications that it is intended to be metafictional

Being “Void” just means it's devoided of materials or concepts.

I am, again, showing similarities.

These points don't link up. Not to mention the Comics and Wiki place them as separate. I don't know where this conclusion came from.

Im starting to understand that you might not truly understand how i structured this post? Everything you have read prior to this as been about these two different interpretations

Hell, you literally agreed with the second interpretation just now

Yes because Eternity specifically called for his Ultimates. The story is intertwined and connected and what lay beyond the Outside is where everything began “The Far Shore.”

Im becoming a little confused of what your arguments are.

There is the levels of fiction. Most time this “fiction” is referenced to higher beings viewing lower objects. If you were above Eternity and you too.

Wut?

It's not a META-level feat or anything groundbreaking in the sense of fictional awareness.

It is not fictional awareness, this has already been made clear several times, this connects to characters who bore you to the brim with metafictional showings like God of Stories Loki and whatnot

These entities definitely view these stories, as just that, stories, fictions.

You mention from a “higher perspective” which is common between beings that are higher. Remove the “vantage point” and allow them to come into the Multiverse and let's see how different a perception is.

I again, am not sure what you are talking about here, however if you are referring to Never Queen and Eternity not actually being beyond the fictions of these stories then that would be just incorrect

We know Never Queen reads all these stories and knows how narratives function, we see her and Eternity talk about the story of SS and Dawn on 2 separate occasions.

With many statements like these:

ALL WE CAN DO NOW IS WATCH AS THEIR STORY NEARS ITS FINAL CHAPTER.

ETERNITY, PLEASE HE HAS POSSIBILITIES AGAIN. THOUGH THEIR STORY IS OVER, I WISH TO SEE WHAT HE WOULD DO NEXT.

MOST STORIES BEGIN “ONCE UPON A TIME..." NOT THIS ONE. IT STARTS AT ITS END, ENDS AT ITS START, AND HAS ITS ONE AND ONLY TWIST IN THE MIDDLE. THIS IS THE STORY OF THE SILVER SURFER, NOW THE SHEPHERD TO OVER 6 BILLION SOULS... ...ALL OF WHICH WHOM HE HAS WRONGED.

(Added a little Never Queen touch cuz why not)

Clearly, as you can see, both Eternity and the Queen of Nevers display some form of R/F superiority over the stories of the Omniverse.

The Abyss is not referenced in the same manner as the Outside. The Beyond is above the Void, as the White Room transcends the Beyond. Underneath the White Hot Room is the Abyss and a way to the Kingdom of Never which may or not exist in the Outside during the Defenders: Beyond run

It definitely existed in the Outside at that time, as Taaia refers to the Kingdom of Never as the true Land-Of-Couldn't-Be-Shouldn't-Be, if i am understanding this correctly.

Which would actually further support the notion that the Never Queen embodies a pretty large portion (if not the entirety of) the Outside/Far Shore.

This isn't relevant.

It is very relevant if you haven't noticed yet.

Never Queen has some form of scaling to the Far Shore/Outside here, if she is comparable to Eternity, Eternity certainly stays at 1-A regardless of what ends up happening here.

That would probably not tier anything up. If Eternity is Low 1-A then Far Shore would just be Low 1-A+, possibly 1-A. If we do take the notion it's beyond Eternity then he doesn't scale to it. Low 1-A is fine for Eternity.

And that just missed the entire point of the post.

If you DO accept the Far Shore as 1-A here, it would be purely because of its transcendence over all the stories of the Multiverse, and as i have said numerous times, simply being there means you are also superior to such stories, making Eternity 1-A.

The Far Shore is certainly not Low 1-A, possibly 1-A, it is flat out 1-A, no possiblys. There are somewhere around 8 different pieces of evidence that explicitly put the Far Shore/Outside as entirely and absolutely beyond the entire Multiverse in a R/F sense. Not possibly 1-A

To add even an extra 9th nugget here cuz why not, The Challenger after getting banished and dying transcended all levels of time, space, self, life and death in the Multiverse just by existing in the Far Shore.

Our Ultimate friends here like FF has existed there 8 Multiverses ago, its aint comparable.

You did good.

Thanks!

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

It would not، assuming the embodiment of existence embodies a space which is the edge of existence on a space that is claimed to be the edge of existence, where the consciousnesses of dead, broken multiverses exist. Is certainly not contradictory to Eternity containing the Far Shore

That's the problem what you explain is very situational. This would have to incorporate a lot of things to be true given the story's contradictory evidence against this claim.

I do want to preface something real quick, i do not agree with either interpretations (although i am leaning towards the second more) i am simply starting a discussion to come to a conclusion.

This does not need to reach a conclusion base on this theory. You were very vocal about the idea that the Far Shore was contained within Eternity. This new view is a heavy emphasis on the interpretation being viewed in different manners.

I mean, it could. Why would it being an Afterlife contradict that precisely?

If it's an Afterlife where the other abstract came from and clearly he doesn't embody them as well. This would go against it being part of Eternity given this afterlife would likely be outside Eternity.

Which is exactly why i lean towards interpretation 2. Shaper falls into the Outside, and sees them, on the Far Shore

He was on the Outside. Then he “saw” what lay beyond. It's not referring to where he was to say the Outside was with the Far Shore. It was telling us that it was literally past the Outside.

Both are the same thing

Comics never state this. This is your view based on some weird interpretation.

Cant say i fully get you here.

Omniverse and Eternity have been described as the same thing. So the Map saying this goes to show why fanmade are purely based on their view.

But from what i am getting, you are suggesting that Eternity and the Omniverse are the same thing? If so, no. Eternity and the Omniverse are certainly not the same thing. I imagine the confusion comes from Al Ewing using the term Omniverse synonymously with Multiverse, however, even one of the Authors of that Databook explicitly came out and distinguished between the two.

I never said they were the same thing. What I was referring to is Al Ewing's usage of the words being interchangeable and the fanmade map doesn't seem to recognize the core of what Al Ewing says in his story. I never state his usage of the words means it's solidified within the comics.

Welp, judging by the new Venom chapters, it might not be that much of a stretch to assume that Knull does indeed predate the Multiverse.

Knull predating the Multiverse is common knowledge. Him being the “Void” or at least the primary embodiment is illogical pointed by the map.

Makes sense.

Alright.

Im simply showing the similarities

Having similarities isn't warranted to connect these theories.

Its a wall of comics, with each comic representing a universe, combine that with the Loki stuff, and there is a VERY good case to be made that all of these stories/universes are fictional from that perspective

Even the cover of the issue gives further implications that it is intended to be metafictional

Fictional is not always referred to in the same manner to suggest metafictionality. You're relying too much on what is implied rather context that goes with the story.

I am, again, showing similarities.

That doesn't make it valid simply due to similarities.

Im starting to understand that you might not truly understand how i structured this post? Everything you have read prior to this as been about these two different interpretations

I literally addressed both theories and the errors within it. There's no confusing that.

Hell, you literally agreed with the second interpretation just now

No, I did not. The first one was much better. I've literally stated how you came up with that conclusion.

Im becoming a little confused of what your arguments are.

The stories are connected. So when Shaper mentions the Far Shore is beyond the Putside, and near the final issue it said he called for his Ultimates. Then he called them from a place beyond the Outside.

Wut?

Not all mention of fiction is of metafiction.

It is not fictional awareness, this has already been made clear several times, this connects to characters who bore you to the brim with metafictional showings like God of Stories Loki and whatnot

GoS Loki has nothing to do with it. What was shown was the awareness of fiction, viewing something below as fiction and knowing of other lower fiction are not being metafictional.

These entities definitely view these stories, as just that, stories, fictions.

That's from their perception. That's not what metafiction is.

I again, am not sure what you are talking about here, however if you are referring to Never Queen and Eternity not actually being beyond the fictions of these stories then that would be just incorrect

I've never states this.....You’re literally just creating a strawman now.

We know Never Queen reads all these stories and knows how narratives function, we see her and Eternity talk about the story of SS and Dawn on 2 separate occasions.

Narratives are the flow of stories. Since they are living in these stories it's a telling of what happens. That's not meta-fictional.

With many statements like these:

None of those pertain to metafiction. If you can't understand this then don't being it up.

(Added a little Never Queen touch cuz why not)

Clearly, as you can see, both Eternity and the Queen of Nevers display some form of R/F superiority over the stories of the Omniverse.

You just said Omniverse and Multiverse are two different things, your points are counterintuitive to each other. Their being superior to things inside is not the jist of it. Eternity embody what is inside does not mean he sees it as fiction. He just sees them as his inner working, not where he is above all of it.

It definitely existed in the Outside at that time, as Taaia refers to the Kingdom of Never as the true Land-Of-Couldn't-Be-Shouldn't-Be, if i am understanding this correctly.

No, they already went past the Void, in the Abyss where the warmth of the Phoenix cent reach.

Which would actually further support the notion that the Never Queen embodies a pretty large portion (if not the entirety of) the Outside/Far Shore.

No relevance because she is in the Outside during most of the Silver Surfer run. This is the most convoluted assumption ever.

It is very relevant if you haven't noticed yet.

Never Queen has some form of scaling to the Far Shore/Outside here, if she is comparable to Eternity, Eternity certainly stays at 1-A regardless of what ends up happening here.

Her having scale does not scale Eternity.

And that just missed the entire point of the post.

If you DO accept the Far Shore as 1-A here, it would be purely because of its transcendence over all the stories of the Multiverse, and as i have said numerous times, simply being there means you are also superior to such stories, making Eternity 1-A.

Even if it were. It's outside Eternity so it doesn't scale him to place he can go.

The Far Shore is certainly not Low 1-A, possibly 1-A, it is flat out 1-A, no possiblys. There are somewhere around 8 different pieces of evidence that explicitly put the Far Shore/Outside as entirely and absolutely beyond the entire Multiverse in a R/F sense. Not possibly 1-A

Most people here disagree with the reasoning and claim.

To add even an extra 9th nugget here cuz why not, The Challenger after getting banished and dying transcended all levels of time, space, self, life and death in the Multiverse just by existing in the Far Shore.

Our Ultimate friends here like FF has existed there 8 Multiverses ago, its aint comparable.

These point do not help you. Being banished to a place beyond the Multiverse somehow scales them? Alright.

Thanks!

You're welcome.

 

[NHTkenshin2]

He was on the Outside. Then he “saw” what lay beyond. It's not referring to where he was to say the Outside was with the Far Shore. It was telling us that it was literally past the Outside.

Im starting to get you here, you are claiming that because Shaper fell into this supposed Outside and saw what was “beyond", the implication that the Far Shore would be entirely beyond the Outside is what you are saying?

Want to tackle some stuff first, what is the proof that the Far Shore is located beyond the Outside? Thats one. Two, the statement “what lay beyond." is in reference to what was in front Shaper, possibly referring to the saying "what lies beyond me"

There is reason to believe this interpretation is correct, given that when Shaper died, he claimed to have fallen into a place where "NOTHING DIES," and in newer Issues, he also claimed that the Far Shore is a place where nothing dies. This should sound familiar because when the Challenger and Thanos died, they both fell into the Far Shore. Because if you haven't caught on yet, the Far Shore is associated with death and is considered an afterlife, as i have already discussed numerous times.

This is ALL connected to the Far Shore and the outside being the same, when you consider that evidence has already suggested that the Others arrived from the Outside

Fictional is not always referred to in the same manner to suggest metafictionality. You're relying too much on what is implied rather context that goes with the story.

By literal meaning, if a character reads the story of the protagonists, that would suggest metafiction at play.

No, I did not. The first one was much better. I've literally stated how you came up with that conclusion.

So you agree that the Far Shore is a part of Eternity?

No relevance because she is in the Outside during most of the Silver Surfer run. This is the most convoluted assumption ever.

Brother, you keep skimming over the evidence i have already provided numerous times to make your own assumptions

The Outside, was directly stated to be made out of unchecked possibility, Never Queen is ALL possiblity, which would imply that she embodies a part of it, or embodies it entirely.

Most people here disagree with the reasoning and claim.

I have seen no evidence of anyone disagreeing with 1-A Far Shore. You still seem to assume that i agree that Eternity embodies the Far Shore which was my original premise but after actually rereading these stories i have come to different conclusions.

These point do not help you. Being banished to a place beyond the Multiverse somehow scales them? Alright.

Indeed, the Challenger quite literally transcended the Multiverse after getting banished, FF has been banished a long time ago, implying he too has already transcended the contents of the Multiverse. Couple that with the Never Queen/Eternity stuff and that would make even more sense.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

I'm not repeating. At this point, we’ll have to see what the others think.

 

[Elizio33]

I think the stories have made it clear that the Far Shore is not part of Eternity. When the Challenger fell on the Far Shore, he was barred from reality, awaiting for the end of the multiverse in order to make his way back to the new reformed multiverse after the Secret Wars. At this point it's clear that the final realm that Eternity encompasses is the Neutral Zone, beyond the Neutral Zone is an empty white space, so the Far Shore should be somewhere in that white space. I don't think that Eternity or the Never Queen should scale to the Far Shore neither.

Eternity embodies the Malkuth, the kabbalistic representation of the material reality. The Far Shore should be a kind of bridge between the Malkuth and the Yesod beyond, the engine room of creation where the Beyonders live.

 

[NHTkenshin2]

I think the stories have made it clear that the Far Shore is not part of Eternity. When the Challenger fell on the Far Shore, he was barred from reality, awaiting for the end of the multiverse in order to make his way back to the new reformed multiverse after the Secret Wars. At this point it's clear that the final realm that Eternity encompasses is the Neutral Zone, beyond the Neutral Zone is an empty white space, so the Far Shore should be somewhere in that white space.

Interpretation 2 covers that, it believes that the Far Shore is the Outside, which would support the notion that Eternity does not encompass the Far Shore. Should i add you to people who agree with interpretation 2?

I don't think that Eternity or the Never Queen should scale to the Far Shore neither.

Why not? Whats your interpretation on the whole Unchecked possibility thing? Also what do you think about Eternity and other inhabitants of the Outside/Far Shore viewing the Multiverse as fictional?

I'd also like to add that the Outside being Da'at, with Da'at would further support this argument, considering Da'at is considered to represent the union of Chokhmah (Wisdom) and Binah (Understanding), with the comic also calling that entire structure a place of unchecked knowledge, which seems to interpret possiblity and knowledge to be the same thing, further implying Never Queens embodiment over the Outside/Far Shore

Eternity embodies the Malkuth, the kabbalistic representation of the material reality. The Far Shore should be a kind of bridge between the Malkuth and the Yesod beyond, the engine room of creation where the Beyonders live.

I am actually looking to make a blog regarding this entire thing soon.

 

[Elizio33]

Interpretation 2 covers that, it believes that the Far Shore is the Outside, which would support the notion that Eternity does not encompass the Far Shore. Should i add you to people who agree with interpretation 2?


Why not? Whats your interpretation on the whole Unchecked possibility thing? Also what do you think about Eternity and other inhabitants of the Outside/Far Shore viewing the Multiverse as fictional?

I'd also like to add that the Outside being Da'at, with Da'at would further support this argument, considering Da'at is considered to represent the union of Chokhmah (Wisdom) and Binah (Understanding), with the comic also calling that entire structure a place of unchecked knowledge, which seems to interpret possiblity and knowledge to be the same thing, further implying Never Queens embodiment over the Outside/Far Shore


I am actually looking to make a blog regarding this entire thing soon.

The Never Queen does not embody the Far Shore and the unchecked possibilities are the possibilities of the multiverse. She embodies all possibilities of the multiverse, whether checked or unchecked. I think the Far Shore exists somewhere in the space where the Shaper of Worlds and the Challenger fell into, between the Malkuth and the Yesod.

 

[NHTkenshin2]

The Never Queen does not embody the Far Shore and the unchecked possibilities are the possibilities of the multiverse. She embodies all possibilities of the multiverse, whether checked or unchecked.

That is not what was stated, reading the statements, it is very clear they are not referring to the Multiverse here

I think the Far Shore exists somewhere in the space where the Shaper of Worlds and the Challenger fell into, between the Malkuth and the Yesod.

Malkuth is the neutral zone (which we can assume to be the entire Multiverse) and Yesod represents the Second cosmos/Beyond. Considering we do know that whatever is beyond the Far Shore is the mystery, it is logical to assume it is the Outside, the space between these two Sephirot. So yeah i agree

 

[Elizio33]

That is not what was stated, reading the statements, it is very clear they are not referring to the Multiverse here


Malkuth is the neutral zone (which we can assume to be the entire Multiverse) and Yesod represents the Second cosmos/Beyond. Considering we do know that whatever is beyond the Far Shore is the mystery, it is logical to assume it is the Outside, the space between these two Sephirot. So yeah i agree

Where it is stated that the Never Queen embodies the other side of the Land of Couldn't-Be-Shouldn't-Be? Okay, those are all the unchecked possibilities that the Never Queen represents, but here we are in a similar case to the One Above All.

The One Above All is above all, but is only the beginning of what he represents. This does not mean that he embodies the whole Mystery and what we thought to be TOAA was an aspect of his true self, it means that there is a final guiding hand somewhere and the mystery is even vaster. But yes, I don't know if you understand what I mean by that. Sorry, I was very lazy and unclear with this one. Just because the other side of the Land of Couldn't-Be-Shouldn't-Be is a land of unchecked possibilities doesn't necessarily mean that the Never Queen embodies them. She embodies the possibilities of the Multiverse, aka Eternity.

 

[Antvasima]

Eternity

The Never Queen

The First Firmament

The Beyonders

Molecule Man

If I'm not wrong, the 1-A Tier comes from Eighth Multiverse Eternity because he encompasses the Far Shore. It should removed and Eternity (Eighth Multiverse) and every character scaling to him should be Low 1-A instead.

I think that your posts in this thread make sense. Should I unlock those pages for you to edit then?

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

I think that your posts in this thread make sense. Should I unlock those pages for you to edit then?

We need more people's input but I do agree with Elizio.

 

[NHTkenshin2]

Where it is stated that the Never Queen embodies the other side of the Land of Couldn't-Be-Shouldn't-Be? Okay, those are all the unchecked possibilities that the Never Queen represents, but here we are in a similar case to the One Above All.

The One Above All is above all, but is only the beginning of what he represents. This does not mean that he embodies the whole Mystery and what we thought to be TOAA was an aspect of his true self, it means that there is a final guiding hand somewhere and the mystery is even vaster. But yes, I don't know if you understand what I mean by that. Sorry, I was very lazy and unclear with this one. Just because the other side of the Land of Couldn't-Be-Shouldn't-Be is a land of unchecked possibilities doesn't necessarily mean that the Never Queen embodies them. She embodies the possibilities of the Multiverse, aka Eternity.

If it weren't for Never Queen's statement that she embodies all possibilities and is not limited to anything, then it would be a debatable assumption. The comics have made it clear that she represents possibility as a whole, so it's wrong to assume that this only applies to "Multiversal logic" without evidence. In fact, most evidence supports that this extends beyond the Multiverse.

The Abstracts are beings that represent the concepts of the Multiverse in various ways. With entities that exist outside the Multiverse, Oblivion for example, an outsider abstract, embodies Nonexistence, and we don't assume that this is limited to a Multiversal scale. Because of his Extra-multiversal status

Similarly, Never Queen exists outside of the Multiverse, and we should not assume that she is limited to it. This is further hinted at by the fact that the Outside is referred to as her kingdom

I think that your posts in this thread make sense. Should I unlock those pages for you to edit then?

I suggest waiting a little bit longer, do you mind re-tagging people here for further input? Considering newer arguments are being made.

 

[Antvasima]

@Deagonx @Firestorm808 @Eficiente @Qawsedf234 @Marvel_Champion_07 @DarkDragonMedeus @Maverick_Zero_X @Planck69 @LuciferDC099 @PrinceofPein

What do you think of Elizio33's suggestions here? They make sense to me.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Yes, it makes sense to me as well.

 

[NHTkenshin2]

Yes, it makes sense to me as well.

Should i add you to agree with interpretation 2?

Snip

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I suppose so.

 

[NHTkenshin2]

Alright, i want some input on the Metafictional arguments as well as the Never Queen arguments. Is someone willing to review these?

The Outside being the Far Shore would imply a good amount of things:

• The Far Shore/Outside transcends all levels of dream and reality in the Multiverse | Defenders Vol. 3 #3
• the Far Shore/Outside are explicitly stated to be the literal abstract art that makes up the Low 1-A Marvel Multiverse. Implying R/F qualitative superiority over the rest of the cosmology | Take a Journey Through the Afterlifes of ‘Valkyrie: Jane Foster’ #3 with the Artists Who Created Them
• Which is consistent with it being seen the Far Shore/Outside viewing reality as a wall of fictional comics | Avengers #676

Inhabitants of the Outside/Far Shore also view the Multiverse as fictional, as i have already explained numerous times:

• Those Who Sit Above In Shadows feed on the stories of the Gods from outside | Loki: Agent of Asgard #16/#17
• Loki entering the Outside was capable of holding the stories of the gods in his hand. Free and unfettered from said stories | Loki: Agent of Asgard #16
• Loki describes the Outside as outside of “it all",which would be in reference to his statements of all the stories in the Omniverse | Loki: Agent of Asgard #14/#16
• Glorian states the outside is outside of the Multiverse and all its stories | Defenders: Beyond #4
  • I should also bring up that the Outside was stated to be the farthest place of reality in this scan, showing further comparability to the Far Shore
• The Queen of nevers and Eternity are capable of narrating the stories of Silver Surfer and Dawn. The Queen of Nevers has also stated that their stories is unlike all other, implying no story exists beyond her realm of influence, also implying all stories in the Omniverse, and by extension, the Omniverse itself, are inferior to her existence. | Silver Surfer Vol. 7 #11/#14

What does this imply? It has been established that beings who exist outside of the Multiverse are detached from all the stories within it, essentially considering them to be fictional.

This is demonstrated by the fact that Eternity, the Queen of Nevers, and others have been observed narrating the tales of the Multiverse, indicating their reality/fiction superiority over it. As these beings are inhabitants of the Outside, it suggests that their vantage point allows them to perceive and understand the Multiverse's narratives and concepts from a higher perspective.

This suggests that these individuals exist in a manner comparable to the relationship between authors and the real world. Just as authors transcend their stories due to their existence in the real world, these individuals possess a higher status due to their position in the Outside and their detachment from the stories within the Multiverse.

Now, the queen herself is a WHOLE other can of worms i have no idea if i want to open here, considering that the Outside (called in this story as the Land-That-Couldn't-Be-Shouldn't-Be, which is still the Outside, a place outside all stories) is called in that issue to be a place of unchecked possiblity (Defenders: Beyond #4)

Now people, remind me if i am wrong here, but “Unchecked possiblity" is...still possiblity, right? And who is possibility? Thats right, good ol' Never Queen, (Silver Surfer 2014 #2) the summation of all possiblity, with her death alone being capable of collapsing all of possiblity itself. (Silver Surfer 2014 #3) Essentially collapsing the entire 1-A Far Shore/Outside with her in the process

The relationship between the Outside and the Never Queen is further implied by Taaia referring to The Outside as the “Kingdom of Never" (Defenders: Beyond #4)

How would anyone scale to the Queen? We know that Eternity is Never Queens husband, (Silver Surfer 2014 #3) we know that FF is older and stronger then Eternity, which could possibly imply that FFs age has something to do with his strength. And well, we kinda already accept Eternity and Never Queens comparability (i think?), considering she, Eternity and Entropy make up all of true existence (Fantastic Four Vol. 6 #44)

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

I'm pretty sure I already did. Very contradictory evidence heavily relies on implications and uncanny interpretation.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

So far everyone pretty much agrees with Elizio's view. We can wait for more but for now, we can just answer for NTHkenshin2 but I wholeheartedly disagree and I'm not repeating my points with him.

 

[NHTkenshin2]

So far everyone pretty much agrees with Elizio's view. We can wait for more but for now, we can just answer for NTHkenshin2 but I wholeheartedly disagree and I'm not repeating my points with him.

The disagreements were for my original arguments, this is a whole other thing. Your arguments were responded to, and you responded back with saying that you dont want to repeat yourself

So I want more input on my newer arguments.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

The disagreements were for my original arguments, this is a whole other thing. Your arguments were responded to, and you responded back with saying that you dont want to repeat yourself

So I want more input on my newer arguments.

What are you talking about? This topic is about the Far Shore interpretation.

Then you add stuff like Never Queen and wanting to revoke her downgrade. Which points you mentioned were also addressed by me. You have not brought up a new topic. Your recycling it and slightly rewording it a bit. I'm not trying to sound rude but I don't see where you have this “whole other thing.” It's the very repetitiveness that you do which made me not want to keep this argument up. It goes nowhere.

 

[Antvasima]

We should preferably end this argument soon, yes.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

We should preferably end this argument soon, yes.

It's around 8-10 people who agree with Elizio or do not pictorially agree with the OP. The ratio is around 70-80 against him. Since the only thing that is happening is derailed, there isn't a further need to continue this. I don't think any more input is needed unless somehow 4 or 5 people agree with the OP.

 

[Gasper]

Why the **** are people rushing this thread? Let the man speak.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Why the **** are people rushing this thread? Let the man speak.

He can very well speak. The gist of the argument is very blatantly repetitive. At this point, people are just swaying what they are in favor of. Plus Ant said “soon” so he very well has time to speak his view on this subject. Please don't misinterpret what was said.

 

[NHTkenshin2]

What are you talking about? This topic is about the Far Shore interpretation.

Then you add stuff like Never Queen and wanting to revoke her downgrade. Which points you mentioned were also addressed by me. You have not brought up a new topic. Your recycling it and slightly rewording it a bit. I'm not trying to sound rude but I don't see where you have this “whole other thing.” It's the very repetitiveness that you do which made me not want to keep this argument up. It goes nowhere.

It is definitely a whole new thing, this is further evidence that you have either not really thoroughly read my post, or haven't read it at all, as shown in most of your responses to me calling literal integral parts of my post ”irrelevant". Meaning that you definitely have not fully understood my post

But allow my to fully summarise how much my new post interduced to the thread

1. When Elizio responded, he provided evidence that i now actually lean towards when i have read thoroughly
2. The mods have come here and agreed with it, which would have resulted in 8th Eternity getting downgraded
3. My post (this one) interduced a handful of new things that i want reviewed in this thread
   1. It provided two interpretations over the Far Shore. Interpretation 1 would be that the Far Shore is a part of Eternity and the original contradiction would've been solved by the Others actually not having come from the Far Shore but rather the Outside. Interpretation 2 simply said that the Outside was the Far Shore, explaining why they seemed to have come from the Outside at the time
   2. This post also interduced the fact that inhabitants of the Far Shore viewed the contents of the Multiverse as fictional
   3. As well as interduced that the Never Queen embodied a large portion of the 1-A Far Shore/Outside
4. With all of these new arguments going directly against what most people have agreed on.

I am now kind of leaving my studying to quickly and urgently post a massage, because i am certain that you will attempt to convince the moderators that nothing new has been presented, when that is literally just your objectively false opinion.

 

[NHTkenshin2]

I am now kind of leaving my studying to quickly and urgently post a massage, because i am certain that you will attempt to convince the moderators that nothing new has been presented, when that is literally just your objectively false opinion.

And i was completely correct, unfortunately.

It's around 8-10 people who agree with Elizio or do not pictorially agree with the OP. The ratio is around 70-80 against him. Since the only thing that is happening is derailed, there isn't a further need to continue this. I don't think any more input is needed unless somehow 4 or 5 people agree with the OP.

 

[Antvasima]

It is definitely a whole new thing, this is further evidence that you have either not really thoroughly read my post, or haven't read it at all, as shown in most of your responses to me calling literal integral parts of my post ”irrelevant". Meaning that you definitely have not fully understood my post

But allow my to fully summarise how much my new post interduced to the thread

1. When Elizio responded, he provided evidence that i know actually lean towards when i have read thoroughly
2. The mods have come here and agreed with it, which would have resulted in 8th Eternity getting downgraded
3. My post (this one) interduced a handful of new things that i want reviewed in this thread
   1. It provided two interpretations over the Far Shore. Interpretation 1 would be that the Far Shore is a part of Eternity and the original contradiction would've been solved by the Others actually not having come from the Far Shore but rather the Outside. Interpretation 2 simply said that the Outside was the Far Shore, explaining why they seemed to have come from the Outside at the time
   2. This post also interduced the fact that inhabitants of the Far Shore viewed the contents of the Multiverse as fictional
   3. As well as interduced that the Never Queen embodied a large portion of the 1-A Far Shore/Outside
4. With all of these new arguments going directly against what most people have agreed on.

I am now kind of leaving my studying to quickly and urgently post a massage, because i am certain that you will attempt to convince the moderators that nothing new has been presented, when that is literally just your objectively false opinion.

@Elizio33 @Deagonx @Eficiente @Firestorm808

What do you think of the points in NHTkenshin2's post above?

 

[Gasper]

He can very well speak. The gist of the argument is very blatantly repetitive. At this point, people are just swaying what they are in favor of. Plus Ant said “soon” so he very well has time to speak his view on this subject. Please don't misinterpret what was said.

Well, the thread isn't even open for a full month. Maybe more people will find the thread in a few days and agree with the OP.

I am currently neutral though.

And i am definitely not misinterpreting the situation here.
Everyone just jumped at once to close the thread. The time dosen't particularly matter.