Marvel Comics: 1-A upgrades

[NHTkenshin2]

Well, the thread isn't even open for a full month. Maybe more people will find the thread in a few days and agree with the OP.

Not the OP, that one has a wrong premise. I will even bold this text to make sure people know that even i disagree with it now

This is my current stance:

Alright.

While the statements i said still hold true, that being that The Far Shore is truly the Multiversal afterlife and is where the consciousnesses of Multiverses go after death.

Promotional material has also stated that when Eternity called out for help against FF, he called out the other Multiversal embodiments, he called them from the “Outside”. Not actually the Far Shore (but stay with me here)


This statement here:


Could've actually not been stated by Eternity, it was stated by the Shaper of Worlds, after being on the Far Shore and seeing the Others, who exist in the Outside, however one could also interpret it as having come from Eternity

Which brings us to two interpretations:

• The Far Shore is a Multiversal afterlife, and the edge of the Multiverse, but its inhabitants are not limited to The Far Shore, and can enter the “Outside”

This interpretation is built on the fact that we have seen Lifebringer Galactus, and well, The Others, enter and roam in the Outside, which we can assume is above the Far Shore in scope

As that the depiction of the Outside, based on our observations so far, suggests that it exists entirely beyond the Multiverse, as demonstrated in the Loki: Agent of Asgard comic series. In this context, Loki perceives the stories of the gods as fictional while conversing with Those Who Sit Above In Shadows, who are feeding on these stories from the Outside. This establishes a clear distinction between the Outside and the Omniverse, indicating a sense of superiority of the former over the latter, thus also the edge of the Omniverse, the Far Shore

This interpretation is somewhat supported by Al Ewings agreement with a fan-made map on twitter, that seems to place the Others, including Eternity as Extra-Far Shore entities

• The Far Shore is the Outside

Pretty simple. Taking to Elizio's arguments into account, the Others, who were known to exist in the Outside, seem to have come from the Far Shore to battle the FF.

The Outside is located beyond the entire Multiverse and possesses a certain degree of reality/fiction superiority over the Multiverse, as demonstrated by TWSAIS consuming the tales of the gods from outside the Multiverse. (Loki: Agent of Asgard #17) This aligns with the scans of Galactus observing Eternity's physical manifestation while sitting in the Outside. (Ultimates Vol. 1 #5)

The Far Shore is also another empty void that lies beyond everything (Defenders: Beyond Vol. 3 #3) and also perceives the stories of the Multiverse as fictional. (Avengers #676) This would shed light on why the Others, who were confirmed to exist in the Outside at the time, emerged from the Far Shore.

Implying it is actually possible that both of these ***** were actually the same all along, or possible that they were not:

1. Interpretation 1: Eternity maintains his 1-A status as he embodies the Far Shore. The Shaper on the Far Shore witnessed the emergence of the Others, which suggests that they may have come from a place visible from the Far Shore, i.e., the Outside. However, it does not necessarily mean that the Others emerged from the Far Shore itself.
2. Interpretation 2: The Far Shore and the Outside are the same thing. The Others emerged from the Far Shore/Outside. TWSAIS, GoS Loki and two others i will cover exist within the Outside and perceive the stories of the Omniverse as fictional, similar to the Far Shore's view of them as a wall of comics. Eternity and FF also maintain their 1-A status as they exist within the Outside, where Lifebringer Galactus, whose power comes from a power source as infinite as the Multiverse.

Yes, 1-A. Our Low 1-A comes from the dimensionality of the Multiverse, which we accept to extend to Low 1-A.

The Outside being the Far Shore would imply a good amount of things:

• The Far Shore/Outside transcends all levels of dream and reality in the Multiverse | Defenders Vol. 3 #3
• the Far Shore/Outside are explicitly stated to be the literal abstract art that makes up the Low 1-A Marvel Multiverse. Implying R/F qualitative superiority over the rest of the cosmology | Take a Journey Through the Afterlifes of ‘Valkyrie: Jane Foster’ #3 with the Artists Who Created Them
• Which is consistent with it being seen the Far Shore/Outside viewing reality as a wall of fictional comics | Avengers #676

Inhabitants of the Outside/Far Shore also view the Multiverse as fictional, as i have already explained numerous times:

• Those Who Sit Above In Shadows feed on the stories of the Gods from outside | Loki: Agent of Asgard #16/#17
• Loki entering the Outside was capable of holding the stories of the gods in his hand. Free and unfettered from said stories | Loki: Agent of Asgard #16
• Loki describes the Outside as outside of “it all",which would be in reference to his statements of all the stories in the Omniverse | Loki: Agent of Asgard #14/#16
• Glorian states the outside is outside of the Multiverse and all its stories | Defenders: Beyond #4
  • I should also bring up that the Outside was stated to be the farthest place of reality in this scan, showing further comparability to the Far Shore
• The Queen of nevers and Eternity are capable of narrating the stories of Silver Surfer and Dawn. The Queen of Nevers has also stated that their stories is unlike all other, implying no story exists beyond her realm of influence, also implying all stories in the Omniverse, and by extension, the Omniverse itself, are inferior to her existence. | Silver Surfer Vol. 7 #11/#14

What does this imply? It has been established that beings who exist outside of the Multiverse are detached from all the stories within it, essentially considering them to be fictional.

This is demonstrated by the fact that Eternity, the Queen of Nevers, and others have been observed narrating the tales of the Multiverse, indicating their reality/fiction superiority over it. As these beings are inhabitants of the Outside, it suggests that their vantage point allows them to perceive and understand the Multiverse's narratives and concepts from a higher perspective.

This suggests that these individuals exist in a manner comparable to the relationship between authors and the real world. Just as authors transcend their stories due to their existence in the real world, these individuals possess a higher status due to their position in the Outside and their detachment from the stories within the Multiverse.

Now, the queen herself is a WHOLE other can of worms i have no idea if i want to open here, considering that the Outside (called in this story as the Land-That-Couldn't-Be-Shouldn't-Be, which is still the Outside, a place outside all stories) is called in that issue to be a place of unchecked possiblity (Defenders: Beyond #4)

Now people, remind me if i am wrong here, but “Unchecked possiblity" is...still possiblity, right? And who is possibility? Thats right, good ol' Never Queen, (Silver Surfer 2014 #2) the summation of all possiblity, with her death alone being capable of collapsing all of possiblity itself. (Silver Surfer 2014 #3) Essentially collapsing the entire 1-A Far Shore/Outside with her in the process

The relationship between the Outside and the Never Queen is further implied by Taaia referring to The Outside as the “Kingdom of Never" (Defenders: Beyond #4)

How would anyone scale to the Queen? We know that Eternity is Never Queens husband, (Silver Surfer 2014 #3) we know that FF is older and stronger then Eternity, which could possibly imply that FFs age has something to do with his strength. And well, we kinda already accept Eternity and Never Queens comparability (i think?), considering she, Eternity and Entropy make up all of true existence (Fantastic Four Vol. 6 #44)

Conclusions​

Both interpretations suggest that Eternity remains at his 1-A rating.

Even if these interpretations are flawed, the fact that Eternity exists in the Outside/Far Shore implies Eternities transcendence. As also demonstrated by Eternity and Never Queen reading the stories of the Multiverse, as that they transcend these stories and possess a higher level of existence.

The Never Queen also represents all possibilities, while the Far Shore/Outside represents a realm of unchecked possibility. This suggests that the Queen either embodies a part of the Far Shore/Outside (allowing other Multiverses to exist) or embodies the entirety of it. Both of these resulting in 1-A Never Queen nonetheless

Sorry if this post seems lazy, as that i am still pretty busy.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

Well, the thread isn't even open for a full month. Maybe more people will find the thread in a few days and agree with the OP.

A period of time does not distinguish anything. A thread can be open for a couple of weeks with an endless cycle of repetitive derailing. Time is not the issue here.

I am currently neutral though.

We need more to view in favor of the OP.

And i am definitely not misinterpreting the situation here.
Everyone just jumped at once to close the thread. The time dosen't particularly matter.

No one jumped to closing this thread. I only mention how repetitive this discussion is. I'm going over the basis of what we have so far. That it may not need to continue.

 

[Gasper]

A period of time does not distinguish anything. A thread can be open for a couple of weeks with an endless cycle of repetitive derailing. Time is not the issue here.

We need more to view in favor of the OP.

No one jumped to closing this thread. I only mention how repetitive this discussion is. I'm going over the basis of what we have so far. That it may not need to continue.

Can i see derailing comments?

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

It is definitely a whole new thing, this is further evidence that you have either not really thoroughly read my post, or haven't read it at all, as shown in most of your responses to me calling literal integral parts of my post ”irrelevant". Meaning that you definitely have not fully understood my post

I have read your argument several times. This is you just making the assumption that I didn't. I very well understand your point. You just decided to add to it slightly. If you read it every over again it literally has barely changed. If you're so keen on a change of view maybe start a separate thread.

So keep thinking I didn't read your argument properly or that I clearly don't understand. I don't need to argue against your indication because this isn't justified if I did read it or not. I had plenty of time to read it.

But allow my to fully summarise how much my new post interduced to the thread

1. When Elizio responded, he provided evidence that i now actually lean towards when i have read thoroughly

This isn't pertaining to anything. If the evidence is already shown and it's general knowledge there isn't a need to expand on it unless it is very vague. I agreed with Elizio either way. My part is going over the error of your “interpretation.”

1. The mods have come here and agreed with it, which would have resulted in 8th Eternity getting downgraded
2. My post (this one) interduced a handful of new things that i want reviewed in this thread
   1. It provided two interpretations over the Far Shore. Interpretation 1 would be that the Far Shore is a part of Eternity and the original contradiction would've been solved by the Others actually not having come from the Far Shore but rather the Outside. Interpretation 2 simply said that the Outside was the Far Shore, explaining why they seemed to have come from the Outside at the time

Which I literally answered.

1. 1. This post also interduced the fact that inhabitants of the Far Shore viewed the contents of the Multiverse as fictional
   2. As well as interduced that the Never Queen embodied a large portion of the 1-A Far Shore/Outside

You said it multiple times.

• With all of these new arguments going directly against what most people have agreed on.

“New argument” isn't of a different topic. More so a different view on the same topic. Something being new does not change the premise and what is known prior.

I am now kind of leaving my studying to quickly and urgently post a massage, because i am certain that you will attempt to convince the moderators that nothing new has been presented, when that is literally just your objectively false opinion.

This has the same amount of irony as you would put it as. I did not convince any moderator to close this thread yet. I just don't see the need to continue with the repetitiveness. No one asked you to abandon your study or make time for making arguments. Your convinced notion relies on thinking that I want it close for good and convincing the mods. That is a grotesque reasoning that leads nowhere you have every right to continue but you arbitrarily saying things that I didn't actually say is something I don't appreciate.

 

[Antvasima]

It is probably best if everybody here stop arguing with each other and wait for the people I sent notifications to earlier.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

Can i see derailing comments?

The OP switched his “apparent views” to fit another interpretation of the text and the counterarguments to go with that view is a derail.

As for your proof:

Not the OP, that one has a wrong premise. I will even bold this text to make sure people know that even i disagree with it now

This is my current stance:

And this change was implemented quite a while ago apparently which he mentions as I go against his views for a short while. If it were the intended direction he was going against was clearly met with a different approach. That’s what derailing is. Not to mention his bringing up what he thinks “I'm trying to do.” Diverting from the topic several times as an response to me saying what is happening right now.

 

[NHTkenshin2]

No one asked you to abandon your study or make time for making arguments.

Great, thank you for giving the thread more time.
I am awaiting responses from knowledgeable people on this post @Antvasima

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

It is probably best if everybody here stop arguing with each other and wait for the people I sent notifications to earlier.

I understand and I'll stop but they keep assuming I'm saying half of these thing that I didn't. No one agreed to close this thread yet and they're bombarding me with accusations that I wanted to close.

However, I guess we should wait for more views. I just mentioned the current status of things.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. No problem.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

Great, thank you for giving the thread more time.
I am awaiting responses from knowledgeable people on this post @Antvasima

I would say something if this was a retort(”knowledgable people”)but this will be it. Stop misunderstanding what I said. That's the final thing I'm going to say but to respect Ant's wishes. This thread will be open with the needed views as it was intended for the entirety of this thread up to now.

 

[Gasper]

I understand and I'll stop but they keep assuming I'm saying half of these thing that I didn't. No one agreed to close this thread yet and they're bombarding me with accusations that I wanted to close.

However, I guess we should wait for more views. I just mentioned the current status of things.

No, i didn't address you personally. Don't put all this on yourself.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

No, i didn't address you personally. Don't put all this on yourself.

Final one for you. Nothing of what I said mentions your point of addressing me personally. That was referenced for NT. Your point is just mentioned by you positing why is everyone rushing the thread and I see only me and Ant talking about closing the thread “soon.” So I don't see who else you could be referring to.

 

[NHTkenshin2]

Bump

 

[Veronica]

Okay. No problem.

Also if The Beyonders get Low 1-A shouldn't God Emperor Doom also get Low 1-A, since he has portion of their power?

 

[NHTkenshin2]

Ignore the unchecked possibility arguments of the Never Queen for now. Focus on the others though

 

[Elizio33]

Also if The Beyonders get Low 1-A shouldn't God Emperor Doom also get Low 1-A, since he has portion of their power?

God Emperor Doom wasn't able to use the Beyonders power to their full potential due to the lack of confidence he had during the Secret Wars to be a good leader for his people. He was unable to heal his face, though this one is kind of irrelevant, but more importantly, he struggled to fight an Infinity Gauntlet wielder.

 

[Gasper]

Beyonders are already low 1-A or am i missing something?

 

[Elizio33]

Beyonders are already low 1-A or am i missing something?

They are currently Low 1-A individually, 1-A collectively

 

[NHTkenshin2]

They are currently Low 1-A individually, 1-A collectively

Sorry for bothering, but what is your stance on Eternity and the Never Queen viewing all stories in the Multiverse as fictional so we can proceed with further arguments?

Alright.

While the statements i said still hold true, that being that The Far Shore is truly the Multiversal afterlife and is where the consciousnesses of Multiverses go after death.

Promotional material has also stated that when Eternity called out for help against FF, he called out the other Multiversal embodiments, he called them from the “Outside”. Not actually the Far Shore (but stay with me here)


This statement here:


Could've actually not been stated by Eternity, it was stated by the Shaper of Worlds, after being on the Far Shore and seeing the Others, who exist in the Outside, however one could also interpret it as having come from Eternity

Which brings us to two interpretations:

• The Far Shore is a Multiversal afterlife, and the edge of the Multiverse, but its inhabitants are not limited to The Far Shore, and can enter the “Outside”

This interpretation is built on the fact that we have seen Lifebringer Galactus, and well, The Others, enter and roam in the Outside, which we can assume is above the Far Shore in scope

As that the depiction of the Outside, based on our observations so far, suggests that it exists entirely beyond the Multiverse, as demonstrated in the Loki: Agent of Asgard comic series. In this context, Loki perceives the stories of the gods as fictional while conversing with Those Who Sit Above In Shadows, who are feeding on these stories from the Outside. This establishes a clear distinction between the Outside and the Omniverse, indicating a sense of superiority of the former over the latter, thus also the edge of the Omniverse, the Far Shore

This interpretation is somewhat supported by Al Ewings agreement with a fan-made map on twitter, that seems to place the Others, including Eternity as Extra-Far Shore entities

• The Far Shore is the Outside

Pretty simple. Taking to Elizio's arguments into account, the Others, who were known to exist in the Outside, seem to have come from the Far Shore to battle the FF.

The Outside is located beyond the entire Multiverse and possesses a certain degree of reality/fiction superiority over the Multiverse, as demonstrated by TWSAIS consuming the tales of the gods from outside the Multiverse. (Loki: Agent of Asgard #17) This aligns with the scans of Galactus observing Eternity's physical manifestation while sitting in the Outside. (Ultimates Vol. 1 #5)

The Far Shore is also another empty void that lies beyond everything (Defenders: Beyond Vol. 3 #3) and also perceives the stories of the Multiverse as fictional. (Avengers #676) This would shed light on why the Others, who were confirmed to exist in the Outside at the time, emerged from the Far Shore.

Implying it is actually possible that both of these ***** were actually the same all along, or possible that they were not:

1. Interpretation 1: Eternity maintains his 1-A status as he embodies the Far Shore. The Shaper on the Far Shore witnessed the emergence of the Others, which suggests that they may have come from a place visible from the Far Shore, i.e., the Outside. However, it does not necessarily mean that the Others emerged from the Far Shore itself.
2. Interpretation 2: The Far Shore and the Outside are the same thing. The Others emerged from the Far Shore/Outside. TWSAIS, GoS Loki and two others i will cover exist within the Outside and perceive the stories of the Omniverse as fictional, similar to the Far Shore's view of them as a wall of comics. Eternity and FF also maintain their 1-A status as they exist within the Outside, where Lifebringer Galactus, whose power comes from a power source as infinite as the Multiverse.

Yes, 1-A. Our Low 1-A comes from the dimensionality of the Multiverse, which we accept to extend to Low 1-A.

The Outside being the Far Shore would imply a good amount of things:

• The Far Shore/Outside transcends all levels of dream and reality in the Multiverse | Defenders Vol. 3 #3
• the Far Shore/Outside are explicitly stated to be the literal abstract art that makes up the Low 1-A Marvel Multiverse. Implying R/F qualitative superiority over the rest of the cosmology | Take a Journey Through the Afterlifes of ‘Valkyrie: Jane Foster’ #3 with the Artists Who Created Them
• Which is consistent with it being seen the Far Shore/Outside viewing reality as a wall of fictional comics | Avengers #676

Inhabitants of the Outside/Far Shore also view the Multiverse as fictional, as i have already explained numerous times:

• Those Who Sit Above In Shadows feed on the stories of the Gods from outside | Loki: Agent of Asgard #16/#17
• Loki entering the Outside was capable of holding the stories of the gods in his hand. Free and unfettered from said stories | Loki: Agent of Asgard #16
• Loki describes the Outside as outside of “it all",which would be in reference to his statements of all the stories in the Omniverse | Loki: Agent of Asgard #14/#16
• Glorian states the outside is outside of the Multiverse and all its stories | Defenders: Beyond #4
  • I should also bring up that the Outside was stated to be the farthest place of reality in this scan, showing further comparability to the Far Shore
• The Queen of nevers and Eternity are capable of narrating the stories of Silver Surfer and Dawn. The Queen of Nevers has also stated that their stories is unlike all other, implying no story exists beyond her realm of influence, also implying all stories in the Omniverse, and by extension, the Omniverse itself, are inferior to her existence. | Silver Surfer Vol. 7 #11/#14

What does this imply? It has been established that beings who exist outside of the Multiverse are detached from all the stories within it, essentially considering them to be fictional.

This is demonstrated by the fact that Eternity, the Queen of Nevers, and others have been observed narrating the tales of the Multiverse, indicating their reality/fiction superiority over it. As these beings are inhabitants of the Outside, it suggests that their vantage point allows them to perceive and understand the Multiverse's narratives and concepts from a higher perspective.

This suggests that these individuals exist in a manner comparable to the relationship between authors and the real world. Just as authors transcend their stories due to their existence in the real world, these individuals possess a higher status due to their position in the Outside and their detachment from the stories within the Multiverse.

 

[Elizio33]

Sorry for bothering, but what is your stance on Eternity and the Never Queen viewing all stories in the Multiverse as fictional so we can proceed with further arguments?

Interpretation 2 for my part. Well, TWSAIS sees gods as fictional stories and feeds on those stories, although they doesn't necessarily have reality/fiction superiority, the same should apply to Eternity and Never Queen. That's my opinion btw.

 

[NHTkenshin2]

Interpretation 2 for my part. Well, TWSAIS sees gods as fictional stories and feeds on those stories, although they doesn't necessarily have reality/fiction superiority, the same should apply to Eternity and Never Queen. That's my opinion btw.

I personally have to disagree, the idea that entities who can read and interact with the stories of the Multiverse don't necessarily have reality/fiction superiority is a flawed one. The act of reading and interacting with a story implies a level of awareness and control over the narrative that extends beyond the characters and structures within the story itself.

One example of this can be seen in the concept of the "authorial voice," which refers to the voice or perspective of the author that is present throughout a story. When an entity reads a story, they are not only interacting with the characters and structures within the story, but they are also interacting with the authorial voice that shapes and guides the narrative. This means that they have a level of awareness over the story that transcends the characters and structures within it.

Furthermore, the fact that entities such as Eternity and the Never Queen can read and interact with the stories of the Multiverse, implying transcendence over the characters and structures within those stories. This shows they have a level of reality/fiction transcendence to manipulate and shape the stories beyond the limitations of the fictional world.

Further displays i found regarding the Never Queens obvious transcendence over stories

• The Never Queen is shown existing outside of the panels of Silver Surfers story. | Silver Surfer Vol. 7 #11
• Once again, Never Queen is displayed literally viewing the panels of stories. | Defenders: Beyond #4
• And again. | Defenders #4

So far, this is 11 different times that entities within the Far Shore/Outside have shown their reality/fiction transcendence over the Multiverse. I personally dont think its a coincidence, obviously.

This would result in their R/F transcendence beyond all stories of the Omniverse, thus structures like the Neutral zone, which we accept as Low 1-A.

 

[Antvasima]

@Deagonx @Firestorm808 @Eficiente @Qawsedf234 @Marvel_Champion_07 @DarkDragonMedeus @Maverick_Zero_X @Planck69 @LuciferDC099 @PrinceofPein

What do you think of Elizio33's suggestions here? They make sense to me.

@Deagonx @Firestorm808 @Eficiente @Qawsedf234 @Marvel_Champion_07 @DarkDragonMedeus @Maverick_Zero_X @Planck69 @LuciferDC099 @PrinceofPein @LephyrTheRevanchist @ByAsura

 

[Planck69]

I'm far less knowledgeable of Marvel than DC and even there I lag behind. Not to mention my prior expressed lack of interest in this verse's cosmology threads. So, I'll not be able to contribute here.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. That is unfortunate.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I already commented saying that I am fine with that proposal.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you, and my apologies then.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Elizio seems the most reasonable to me.

My position hasn't changed

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you to you as well.

 

[CosmicWreck]

My opinion matters far less than the above, but I must say I strongly disagree with this upgrade.

Eternity embodying the far shore makes no sense as in that same storyline it was shown that Eternity had no idea that it existed, nor that Infinity and the other dead Multiversal abstracts still lived on inside it.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes, strongly agreed. I also do not think that it makes any sense at all.

 

[NHTkenshin2]

Eternity embodying the far shore makes no sense as in that same storyline it was shown that Eternity had no idea that it existed, nor that Infinity and the other dead Multiversal abstracts still lived on inside it.

Yes, i too have expressed disagreements with that argument now. Which is why newer arguments for 1-A has been made

Yes, strongly agreed. I also do not think that it makes any sense at all.

Would it be better to close this thread now and start a new one later for the updated arguments? Since the original post was based on the Far Shore arguments, which have already been discredited. Which has led people to join this thread thinking the new arguments (which have nothing to do with scaling to the Far Shore) are the same as the old ones?

So maybe close this thread for good?

 

[Antvasima]

What are your new arguments? It seems to waste our time with unnecessary repetition if we close this thread.

 

[NHTkenshin2]

What are your new arguments? It seems to waste our time with unnecessary repetition if we close this thread.

Built on the Eternity viewing the contents of the Multiverse as fiction.

People may be under the impression that the ongoing discussion pertains to Eternity's scaling to the Far Shore, a topic that has already been abandoned and is no longer relevant, as explicitly mentioned in my newer posts.

So should this thread be closed?

 

[Antvasima]

No, I think that it should just shift focus a bit.

 

[PrinceofPein]

I agree with Elizio's post also

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

No, I think that it should just shift focus a bit.

Agreed there doesn't need to be a new thread. We can still discuss it until we arrive at a conclusion with the new idea.

 

[NHTkenshin2]

No, I think that it should just shift focus a bit.

I'm not entirely certain what you're referring to.

But if you're suggesting that the new arguments are not significant enough, then that's completely incorrect. As can be seen in this discussion, many people are agreeing with Elizio's comments, which were based on arguments that I've already abandoned.

It's difficult for me to inform all of these individuals at once that my argument has changed because 1. I don't have a badge under my name and 2. many people likely read the original post, saw the debunks that were agreed upon by other moderators, which led them to believe that the current debate was about those abandoned arguments.

Which is why i wanted this thread to be closed so i can start newer discussions in the Original post itself in another thread, because even i disagree with this threads original purpose.

 

[Antvasima]

Just write a summary post for all of your non-debunked remaining arguments, so others here can evaluate them.

 

[NHTkenshin2]

Just write a summary post for all of your non-debunked remaining arguments, so others here can evaluate them.

I did, several times. But alright, i will get at it later.

 

[CosmicWreck]

I saw the reality-fiction arguments. I disagreed. It would not make sense for Eternity to view a piece of fiction, Galactus, as his brother.

As that the depiction of the Outside, based on our observations so far, suggests that it exists entirely beyond the Multiverse, as demonstrated in the Loki: Agent of Asgard comic series. In this context, Loki perceives the stories of the gods as fictional while conversing with Those Who Sit Above In Shadows, who are feeding on these stories from the Outside. This establishes a clear distinction between the Outside and the Omniverse, indicating a sense of superiority of the former over the latter, thus also the edge of the Omniverse, the Far Shore

This interpretation is somewhat supported by Al Ewings agreement with a fan-made map on twitter, that seems to place the Others, including Eternity as Extra-Far Shore entities

• The Far Shore is the Outside

Pretty simple. Taking to Elizio's arguments into account, the Others, who were known to exist in the Outside, seem to have come from the Far Shore to battle the...

The Far Shore is probably a transcendent part of the outside considering the latter has been known to exist in the Marvel Timeline longer than the outside.

"The Outside is located beyond the entire Multiverse and possesses a certain degree of reality/fiction superiority over the Multiverse, as demonstrated by TWSAIS consuming the tales of the gods from outside the Multiverse. (Loki: Agent of Asgard #17)"

The Norse gods and their cosmology, no? Which reach 2-A levels at best. Considering they are several degrees of infinity above this I would argue it's just part of their nature than anything reality-fiction transcendence related.

This aligns with the scans of Galactus observing Eternity's physical manifestation while sitting in the Outside. (Ultimates Vol. 1 #5)

This is not evidence for fiction/reality transcendence and it was specifically stated to be because of Galactus 's powers rather than the inherent nature of the outside.

Implying it is actually possible that both of these ***** were actually the same all along, or possible that they were not:

1. Interpretation 1: Eternity maintains his 1-A status as he embodies the Far Shore. The Shaper on the Far Shore witnessed the emergence of the Others, which suggests that they may have come from a place visible from the Far Shore, i.e., the Outside. However, it does not necessarily mean that the Others emerged from the Far Shore itself.
2. Interpretation 2: The Far Shore and the Outside are the same thing. The Others emerged from the Far Shore/Outside. TWSAIS, GoS Loki and two others i will cover exist within the Outside and perceive the stories of the Omniverse as fictional, similar to the Far Shore's view of them as a wall of comics. Eternity and FF also maintain their 1-A status as they exist within the Outside, where Lifebringer Galactus, whose power comes from a power source as infinite as the Multiverse.

They are not the same thing, most likely just connected. Technically the Outside is way bigger, as it also encompasses The Mystery.

Yes, 1-A. Our Low 1-A comes from the dimensionality of the Multiverse, which we accept to extend to Low 1-A.

I always thought the multiverse was infinite dimensional and Eternity was accepted to encompass it.

The Outside being the Far Shore would imply a good amount of things:

• The Far Shore/Outside transcends all levels of dream and reality in the Multiverse | Defenders Vol. 3 #3

Technically just shows the variability of the tier of Far Shore, since this could be used to describe the place of residence of the 7th cosmos abstracts but the 8th cosmos is much greater and still encompassed by it.

• the Far Shore/Outside are explicitly stated to be the literal abstract art that makes up the Low 1-A Marvel Multiverse. Implying R/F qualitative superiority over the rest of the cosmology | Take a Journey Through the Afterlifes of ‘Valkyrie: Jane Foster’ #3 with the Artists Who Created Them
• Which is consistent with it being seen the Far Shore/Outside viewing reality as a wall of fictional comics | Avengers #676

The art without the characters is not a fiction/reality transcendence example and makes the wall of comics seem like artistic license.

• Loki entering the Outside was capable of holding the stories of the gods in his hand. Free and unfettered from said stories | Loki: Agent of Asgard #16

I also read this storyline. None of Loki's abilities are attributed to entering the Outside.

• Loki describes the Outside as outside of “it all",which would be in reference to his statements of all the stories in the Omniverse | Loki: Agent of Asgard #14/#16

Reconned so hard.

• Glorian states the outside is outside of the Multiverse and all its stories | Defenders: Beyond #4
  • I should also bring up that the Outside was stated to be the farthest place of reality in this scan, showing further comparability to the Far Shore

Same as above. Also retconned. We now know multiple Cosmos escaped their fated destruction and became higher existences.

• The Queen of nevers and Eternity are capable of narrating the stories of Silver Surfer and Dawn. The Queen of Nevers has also stated that their stories is unlike all other, implying no story exists beyond her realm of influence, also implying all stories in the Omniverse, and by extension, the Omniverse itself, are inferior to her existence. | Silver Surfer Vol. 7 #11/#14

Uniqueness does not equal power.

What does this imply? It has been established that beings who exist outside of the Multiverse are detached from all the stories within it, essentially considering them to be fictional.

This is demonstrated by the fact that Eternity, the Queen of Nevers, and others have been observed narrating the tales of the Multiverse, indicating their reality/fiction superiority over it. As these beings are inhabitants of the Outside, it suggests that their vantage point allows them to perceive and understand the Multiverse's narratives and concepts from a higher perspective.

This suggests that these individuals exist in a manner comparable to the relationship between authors and the real world. Just as authors transcend their stories due to their existence in the real world, these individuals possess a higher status due to their position in the Outside and their detachment from the stories within the Multiverse.

Now, the queen herself is a WHOLE other can of worms i have no idea if i want to open here, considering that the Outside (called in this story as the Land-That-Couldn't-Be-Shouldn't-Be, which is still the Outside, a place outside all stories) is called in that issue to be a place of unchecked possiblity (Defenders: Beyond #4)

Now people, remind me if i am wrong here, but “Unchecked possiblity" is...still possiblity, right? And who is possibility? Thats right, good ol' Never Queen, (Silver Surfer 2014 #2) the summation of all possiblity, with her death alone being capable of collapsing all of possiblity itself. (Silver Surfer 2014 #3) Essentially collapsing the entire 1-A Far Shore/Outside with her in the process

The relationship between the Outside and the Never Queen is further implied by Taaia referring to The Outside as the “Kingdom of Never" (Defenders: Beyond #4)

How would anyone scale to the Queen? We know that Eternity is Never Queens husband, (Silver Surfer 2014 #3) we know that FF is older and stronger then Eternity, which could possibly imply that FFs age has something to do with his strength. And well, we kinda already accept Eternity and Never Queens comparability (i think?), considering she, Eternity and Entropy make up all of true existence (Fantastic Four Vol. 6 #44)

There is so much wrong with this I don't even know where to start to unpack. Long story short:

1: Convenient naming schemes are not evidence for characters who don't even make an appearance.

2. It wouldn't make sense for Eternity's wife to show up here. All Sephiroth's are explicitly stated to be beyond Eternity's reach himself. "I open the way to what lies outside and above my being."