Marvel Comics: 1-A upgrades

[NHTkenshin2]

The Far Shore is probably a transcendent part of the outside considering the latter has been known to exist in the Marvel Timeline longer than the outside.

That's one possible interpretation i guess.

Nevertheless, we have confirmed that the area immediately beyond Eternity is the Outside/Far Shore. During Eternity's confrontation with FF, the Others emerged from behind them while they were battling in the Outside. This was explicitly referred to as "help from Outside".

Combine this with their many similarities and straight up connections, its not particularly a stretch to assume the Far Shore is just another name for the Outside.

The Norse gods and their cosmology, no? Which reach 2-A levels at best. Considering they are several degrees of infinity above this I would argue it's just part of their nature than anything reality-fiction transcendence related.

Loki has made it clear that even if you were to destroy the entirety of the Omniverse, possibly including everything from 0D to the Neutral Zone, stories would still remain.

Therefore, it's worth asking: why assume that these stories would have varying degrees of complexity? For instance, why would a story about a Low 2-C entity scale lower than a story about a High 1-B structure? At the end of the day, all stories are simply that – stories. There's no evidence to suggest that a tale about a god is inherently different from any other story within the Omniverse. They all revolve around characters, fictional narratives, and imaginary locations.

So yes, Loki getting into the Outside and literally casually holding the stories of the Gods implies his superiority over the stories of the Omniverse.

This is not evidence for fiction/reality transcendence and it was specifically stated to be because of Galactus 's powers rather than the inherent nature of the outside.

I did not claim it was though

They are not the same thing, most likely just connected. Technically the Outside is way bigger, as it also encompasses The Mystery.

I am mostly referring to the Void directly outside of the Multiverse, excluding Mystery structures like the Beyond, White Hot Room and The House of Ideas.

The art without the characters is not a fiction/reality transcendence example and makes the wall of comics seem like artistic license.

Not sure what you are talking about here. The Far Shore is literal abstract art, said art is what makes up the stories of the Omniverse.

The “wall of comics" is very good evidence in support of this, and is intended to be metafictional as the cover of the issue has hinted it was.

I also read this storyline. None of Loki's abilities are attributed to entering the Outside.

Indeed, however him becoming exterior and unbound from them, is attributed to the Outside

“--he who is Moon-King, Trickster, Wanderer, Free and Unfettered"

A statement that was directly stated after Loki entered the Outside. All of this is supported by the Never Queen arguments.

Uniqueness does not equal power.

1: Convenient naming schemes are not evidence for characters who don't even make an appearance.

Clarify further.

2. It wouldn't make sense for Eternity's wife to show up here. All Sephiroth's are explicitly stated to be beyond Eternity's reach himself. "I open the way to what lies outside and above my being."

Yep, Eternity most probably exists at a fixed point in the Outside, marking the Multiverse. Considering any move he makes the Multiverse gets affected with him in the process.

Never Queen however has been Outside of it all for a pretty long time, she, at the time of Defenders: Beyond was investigating the Mystery, with the House of Ideas not even marking its end.

 

[CosmicWreck]

That's one possible interpretation i guess.

Nevertheless, we have confirmed that the area immediately beyond Eternity is the Outside/Far Shore. During Eternity's confrontation with FF, the Others emerged from behind them while they were battling in the Outside. This was explicitly referred to as "help from Outside".

The Far Shore can't be immediately outside of Eternity or he'd be aware of its existence, which we are already aware he wasn't and simply leaving Eternity allowed Galactus and the Ultimates to be Outside.

Combine this with their many similarities and straight up connections, its not particularly a stretch to assume the Far Shore is just another name for the Outside.

The outside also encompasses the higher Sephiroth/Cosmos and the Mystery, all of which is "above" Eternity's being.

Loki has made it clear that even if you were to destroy the entirety of the Omniverse, possibly including everything from 0D to the Neutral Zone, stories would still remain.

"Somewhere" she specified. She was describing their range, not their durability.

Therefore, it's worth asking: why assume that these stories would have varying degrees of complexity? For instance, why would a story about a Low 2-C entity scale lower than a story about a High 1-B structure? At the end of the day, all stories are simply that – stories. There's no evidence to suggest that a tale about a god is inherently different from any other story within the Omniverse. They all revolve around characters, fictional narratives, and imaginary locations.

Stories also encompass The House of Mystery itself which Loki, the God of them, could not escape without entering it.

Furthermore, considering the Beyonders went mad after being limited by Loki's stories it's clearly depicted that the stories of the characters are different in AP.

So yes, Loki getting into the Outside and literally casually holding the stories of the Gods implies his superiority over the stories of the Omniverse.

My argument isn't to deny his superiority. It's that being outside alone wasn't the cause of this feat. The Ultimates nearly died because they left Eternity.

I am mostly referring to the Void directly outside of the Multiverse, excluding Mystery structures like the Beyond, White Hot Room and The House of Ideas.

I have no problem with the Void outside being deemed a transcendental place.

Not sure what you are talking about here. The Far Shore is literal abstract art, said art is what makes up the stories of the Omniverse.

The “wall of comics" is very good evidence in support of this, and is intended to be metafictional as the cover of the issue has hinted it was.

Maybe? But which issues? It can't be all of them. That would lead to circular scaling.

Indeed, however him becoming exterior and unbound from them, is attributed to the Outside

“--he who is Moon-King, Trickster, Wanderer, Free and Unfettered"

A statement that was directly stated after Loki entered the Outside. All of this is supported by the Never Queen arguments.

See my remarks about The Ultimates.

Clarify further.

No need. I completely forgot about that part of the story. Apologies for the confusion.

Yep, Eternity most probably exists at a fixed point in the Outside, marking the Multiverse. Considering any move he makes the Multiverse gets affected with him in the process.

He literally stated the places stated were beyond his reach. His movements also do not affect the multiverse inside him. No one noticed when The Firmament shackled Eternity.

Never Queen however has been Outside of it all for a pretty long time, she, at the time of Defenders: Beyond was investigating the Mystery, with the House of Ideas not even marking its end.

Yes, I completely forgot this moment, my bad, but this cannot scale to Eternity for reasons I quoted before.

I don't mind Never Queen being upgraded though.

 

[NHTkenshin2]

Sorry for the late response, currently having exams for the rest of this month so i am not going to be free anytime.

The Far Shore can't be immediately outside of Eternity or he'd be aware of its existence, which we are already aware he wasn't and simply leaving Eternity allowed Galactus and the Ultimates to be Outside.

Why would Eternity not be aware of what is directly in front of him, behind him, and all around him?

Eternity allowing such fictional entities to leave the Omniverse is consistent with my argument, as that entering the Far Shore has kinda always been associated with entrance via transcending Life and Death and transcending all levels of the Multiverse, indicating that they have assumed new forms that can thrive in that environment outside the Omniverse.

The outside also encompasses the higher Sephiroth/Cosmos and the Mystery, all of which is "above" Eternity's being.

I am once again telling you that i am referring to the Outside directly outside of Eternity not the rest of the Tree.

By that specific argument you kinda hint that Oblivion encompasses the House of Ideas and the rest of the Mystery for it also being “Outside"

Stories also encompass The House of Mystery itself which Loki, the God of them, could not escape without entering it.

Furthermore, considering the Beyonders went mad after being limited by Loki's stories it's clearly depicted that the stories of the characters are different in AP.

The HOI has (or is) TOAA, which is every author, editor and reader of all Marvel comics stories, its logical to assume it is beyond all stories in the tree, which makes sense considering it represents Kether, the crown of God.

My argument isn't to deny his superiority. It's that being outside alone wasn't the cause of this feat. The Ultimates nearly died because they left Eternity.

It very much was, how can you transcend a story by being directly inside of it? The comics support this when you see Loki existing on the same level of TWSAIS by being unfettered from these stories as they are. This interpretation reinforces my argument that existing outside the Omniverse grants one that state of existence.

Maybe? But which issues? It can't be all of them. That would lead to circular scaling.

Im not sure why this would lead to circular scaling. This is Avengers #676, and no, of course it is not all covers in that volume, this volume has been going on since the 60s.

See my remarks about The Ultimates.

They require help from Eternity, Loki, being the God of Stories, simply seems in no need for that. So he can exist outside of the Multiverse

He literally stated the places stated were beyond his reach. His movements also do not affect the multiverse inside him. No one noticed when The Firmament shackled Eternity.

I apologise, even i remembered that after posting, however i didn't have time to correct myself.

Yes, I completely forgot this moment, my bad, but this cannot scale to Eternity for reasons I quoted before.

I don't mind Never Queen being upgraded though.

Thats the problem, by accepting Never Queens superiority to all stories in the Omniverse, you inherently accept that Eternity is also superior to these stories, we see Eternity and Never Queen reading the stories of the Omniverse and existing on the same level of existence numerous times.

If we argue that Never Queen transcends all stories in the Omniverse, then Eternity will inevitably have to be part of the scaling. This is because Eternity has been shown to exist in the same place, and as previously established, this is due to the Outside's nature. Existing inside the Outside enables one to transcend all levels of life, death, space, and time, and also to read all these stories similar to comics or fiction.

This is the my current basis for 1-A Eternity, he embodies the entire Omniverse, but also views it all as fictional.

Again sorry for the late and lazy post, just wanted to keep this thread running.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Info seems iffy to apply for 1-A base on those. If anything at most Low 1-A, possibly 1-A seems a lot more feasible.

 

[NHTkenshin2]

Info seems iffy to apply for 1-A base on those. If anything at most Low 1-A, possibly 1-A seems a lot more feasible.

Possibly is reserved for possible ratings, built on interpretations that could potentially work. It is not a matter of Eternity possibly viewing the Multiverse as fictional; he actually just straight up does.

Whether how we handle who scales though is a little more complicated though.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Possibly is reserved for possible ratings, built on interpretations that could potentially work. It is not a matter of Eternity possibly viewing the Multiverse as fictional; he actually just straight up does.

Whether how we handle who scales though is a little more complicated though.

Viewing the Multiverse as fiction he is viewing of a lower being. He doesn't transcend himself, so this reason for viewing fiction(to the Multiverse) has no correlation to 1-A.

 

[NHTkenshin2]

Viewing the Multiverse as fiction he is a view of a lower being. He doesn't transcend himself, so this reason for viewing fiction(to the Multiverse) has no correlation to 1-A.

I cant say i fully understand you here.

But if your argument is that Eternity cannot transcend the Multiverse via being the Multiverse itself then that is a pretty flawed argument, there is no reason to assume the embodiment of a Multiverse doesn't transcend it, when we know the existence of entities like Phoenix, Oblivion and his lover, the Never Queen exists.

This logic is pretty simple, Eternity exists in the hostile Outside where no fictional entity can withstand for long, he has been shown to be capable of viewing the Multiverse as fictional in the Far Shore, which transcends all levels of the Multiverse. Scaling Eternity beyond the Low 1-A Multiverse

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

I cant say i fully understand you here.

It was a small typo. Which for the reason below suggests you did understand it.

But if your argument is that Eternity cannot transcend the Multiverse via being the Multiverse itself then that is a pretty flawed argument, there is no reason to assume the embodiment of a Multiverse doesn't transcend it, when we know the existence of entities like Phoenix, Oblivion and his lover, the Never Queen exists.

I'm not saying you cannot transcend yourself without context. This is in reference to what we know of Eternity. I don't know why mentioning those beings count as something towards “transcending themselves.”

This logic is pretty simple, Eternity exists in the hostile Outside where no fictional entity can withstand for long, he has been shown to be capable of viewing the Multiverse as fictional in the Far Shore, which transcends all levels of the Multiverse. Scaling Eternity beyond the Low 1-A Multiverse

Outside is a location not within the Multiverse. He can view his inner self via through self-manifestations or from a different perspective.

The Far Shore isn't where you see yourself per se. He can very well view himself from anything and that doesn't speak of anything of 1-A given that Far Shore is also considered Low 1-A.

 

[NHTkenshin2]

The Far Shore isn't where you see yourself per se. He can very well view himself from anything and that doesn't speak of anything of 1-A given that Far Shore is also considered Low 1-A.

Lots to unpack here. The Far Shore is 100% 1-A, we all know this, its the sole reason why Eternity is currently considered 1-A.

It has now been debunked that Eternity embodies the Far Shore for myriads of reasons.
However, the arguments i am presenting have nothing to do with embodying the Far Shore, but rather that Eternity, and the others that exist within the Far Shore have shown similar transcendences to the Multiverse, having viewed its stories as fictional and transcended all levels of space and time after entering it.

Thats why i consider Eternity to still be 1-A, even with the Far Shore being exterior to himself.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Lots to unpack here. The Far Shore is 100% 1-A, we all know this, it's the sole reason why Eternity is currently considered 1-A.

He contains the Far Shore which was Low 1-A and because of that, Eternity scale up to 1-A. If it were because the Far Shore was 1-A then this wouldn't even be a discussion.

It has now been debunked that Eternity embodies the Far Shore for myriads of reasons.
However, the arguments i am presenting have nothing to do with embodying the Far Shore, but rather that Eternity, and the others that exist within the Far Shore have shown similar transcendences to the Multiverse, having viewed its stories as fictional and transcended all levels of space and time after entering it.

If he doesn't then he scales less which counterintudes your first point.

The others scale to themselves and Eternity is separate from it given that he is the Multiverse. Stories are references to lower beings who don't scale to the places or Eternity. All levels of space and time are just 2-A either way.

Thats why i consider Eternity to still be 1-A, even with the Far Shore being exterior to himself.

Kinda weak points for 1-A. Marvel needs a relook as did DC.

 

[Reizen23]

• It has been confirmed on Twitterby Ewing that Far Shore existed in the cosmos before the Eighth.

it doesn't make sense for it to be in the multiverse before the 8th
Eternity called the ultimate ultimates who were at the far shore,if it was within eternity then why didn't he summon them from within himself?

 

[Antvasima]

@VeryGoofyToddler

So what are the conclusions here so far?

 

[Antvasima]

Also, should you and NHT each write a single explanation post for all of your relevant arguments, after which I request evaluation help from our knowledgeable staff members?

 

[NHTkenshin2]

Also, should you and NHT each write a single explanation post for all of your relevant arguments, after which I request evaluation help from our knowledgeable staff members?

I apologise for the wait. I have end of the year exams that pretty much define everything i have studied for this year (and much more) because of my countries fantastic school system.

The exams are scheduled until May 20th, but once they are over, I will be able to participate fully in discussions on this thread and many others that I have in mind. Once again, I apologize for the wait.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

@VeryGoofyToddler

So what are the conclusions here so far?

He decided to retract back on the “Far Shore” being part of Eternity. His argument is that Eternity can view lower structures such as the Multiverse stories to suggest R>F. Due to how we consider Marvel Multiverse Low 1-A if Never Queen and Eternity can look at it from a higher perspective as I listed above would be 1-A.

I don't agree with it and we may need to relook the Marvel Multiverse structure but that's what he seems to imply.

 

[Ped2018]

G-Guys...

 

[NHTkenshin2]

I don't agree with it and we may need to relook the Marvel Multiverse structure but that's what he seems to imply.

And yeah, a relook just happened.

Ultima touched on a whole lot of stuff i genuinely wanted to bring up for the longest time now, specifically regarding Eternity dreaming up the Multiverse, Uni-Eternity being confirmed numerous times to be a universal copy and paste of his Multiversal incarnation, the numerous realms that were confirmed to exist within Eternity, and much more.

Very glad it came from a respected moderator.

 

[Ped2018]

And yeah, a relook just happened.

Ultima touched on a whole lot of stuff i genuinely wanted to bring up for the longest time now, specifically regarding Eternity dreaming up the Multiverse, Uni-Eternity being confirmed numerous times to be a universal copy and paste of his Multiversal incarnation, the numerous realms that were confirmed to exist within Eternity, and much more.

Very glad it came from a respected moderator.

Also, it seems he's gonna tackle on the contents of this thread on a future crt. Are you gonna continue this one?

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

And yeah, a relook just happened.

Ultima touched on a whole lot of stuff i genuinely wanted to bring up for the longest time now, specifically regarding Eternity dreaming up the Multiverse, Uni-Eternity being confirmed numerous times to be a universal copy and paste of his Multiversal incarnation, the numerous realms that were confirmed to exist within Eternity, and much more.

Very glad it came from a respected moderator.

I don't disagree with the tier. So don't start this snark with me. I don't see your reasoning for R>F very viable.

 

[NHTkenshin2]

Also, it seems he's gonna tackle on the contents of this thread on a future crt. Are you gonna continue this one?

Ultima is far more known then me, so if he is planning to further solidify Eternities tier then i dont mind not continuing with this thread.

I don't disagree with the tier. So don't start this snark with me. I don't see your reasoning for R>F very viable.

I genuinely wasn't trying to.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

I genuinely wasn't trying to.

You'll have to forgive if it wasn't your intention but how you phrase that and from the previous argument seems to indicate a small sass.

 

[NHTkenshin2]

I apologise if it seemed that way.

 

[Ped2018]

Ultima is far more known then me, so if he is planning to further solidify Eternities tier then i dont mind not continuing with this thread.

.

 

[Planck69]

I'll close this thread then.