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1-A Upgrade for the Astral Plane and the Abstracts (Marvel Comics)

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Eseseso said:
(And yes, I am doing this without waiting for Ultima since he is way too busy with other threads)

The Astral Plane is currently accepted as Low 1-A in scope, mainly due to it being the edge/surface of Universal Eternity. This is fine as of right now, but I think that the Astral Plane has a case for being 1-A in nature due to its own statements, as seen in the folder below.

The Astral Plane is a substrate of Earth-616[29] described as "a higher frequency of reality not limited by time, space or form"[14] and A different order of reality, a place beyond space and a meaning beyond time[13]. The Astral Plane is also stated to be the realm of Idea, Thought, and Narrative, as well as a substrate of Earth-616[66], and is stated to be "The edge of reality. The shores of oblivion. The realm of mind and spirit that exists between being and non-being"[67]. Also, the statement of the Astral Plane being the realm of "Narrative" is supported by Xavier stating that, when he fought the Shadow King in a telepathic battle on the Astral Plane, the two telepaths fought each other using emotions, mathematics, sensations, and especially stories/narratives, creating "sagas and songs and ages and massacres". A sorcerer travelling in their astral form "is not bound to ordinary natural laws of time or motion"[28], and "to those adept in the mystic arts, time and space are meaningless when they are in their ectoplasmic form"[30]. When Doctor Strange in his spirit form, the boundaries of time and gravity are meaningless[31]. Upon drinking a potion to release his astral form, Loki could "pierce the veil of time", "shatter the fabric of distance", and was unfettered by space and time. The Astral Plane is a "place without distance or time or physical law". In the Astral Plane, space is a byproduct of the imagination. An adept suitably trained could ignore distance, conquer space with a single thought, and be in an instant wherever he wanted to be. Astral Forms also have no mass or weight.

Even individuals such as the Beyonder (who is an infinite-dimensional being) are shown to have Astral Forms, as shown here[57] and here[58]. Also higher-dimensional mystic beings such as Clea, a Faltine-Dark Dimension Hybrid, have souls of a similar nature to normal humans, as seen here, and even the pan-dimensional demon lord known as Mephisto has a spirit that exists on the Astral Plane[59].

The Astral Plane is a metaphysical dimension layered on top of the mortal plane.[60] It is also the collective psyche as well as the twilight zone between physical reality and the archetypal plane. It is also stated to be an abstract dimension shaped by the minds of those present. The inner space is the lower realm of the astral plane and is the twilight world of the unconscious, an ideo-plastic reality where the denied thought and feelings of humanity take gruesome shape[64], as well as the place where the ideas and dreams of humans are connected in every abstract way, call it the Psychosphere, call it Idea-Space, call it the MassMind.[65] The Astral Plane is also stated to be a huge "storage room" with everything that could ever be, or ever was, or ever is, all being just toys inside of it.[68]

At the level of the astral plane, physics don't matter, this planes is beyond geography and beneath thought, the fight here is just a line between the real to the fiction, from the solid to the spirit, the level of the demigods. There also worlds without shape.[65]


The Astral Plane also contains Nightmare's Realm, which is stated as the following:

Thus, I believe that all of the above statements, clarifying consistently that the Astral Plane is beyond time, space, physics, and all form, along with the scans of it being a realm of concepts/archetypes, make for a solid case for the Astral Plane in Marvel being 1-A in scope.

As the Astral Plane is just a substrate of Earth-616, and is the very edge/surface of Universal Eternity, this 1-A upgrade of the Astral Plane would bump all of the Low 1-A beings in Marvel up to 1-A (including stuff like the physiology/dimensionality of Astral Forms and the potency of Magic), and in turn would make the 1-A forms of the Abstracts become 1 layer into 1-A.

The 1-A scope of the Universal Abstracts is supported by how Eternity holds all of his own cosmology (including multiple High 1-B structures, such as Subspace, the Cascade, and the realm of The Beyonder) as a figment of his thoughts and dreams.[39][40]
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Agree
 
If you are trying 1A or low 1A concepts, you need to follow the new definition of Type 1 concepts.
what am seeing is this

Non-Qualifying Concepts​

Concepts that are not abstract, such as those outlined in Idealism and Nominalism, do not qualify for conceptual manipulation of any kind. Such concepts exist strictly as non-abstract objects and hold no power over anything whatsoever. For a character to qualify for conceptual manipulation, the character must be able to manipulate abstract concepts that exist partially or completely independently of the mind.
atbest this concepts on the thread are type 3


if you read this , you can see why most of the 99%,stuff in this thread is irrelevant for low 1A or 1A , they need follow those steps ultima is saying
vsbattles.com

Concept type 1 are (low-)Outerversal level

In new tiering system outerversal level basically are meta level, that trully superior from all level of reality that cannot getting reached no matter how far you stacted the reality it self Soo what about Concept type 1?? These concept are fully independent from all reality and are the source...
vsbattles.com vsbattles.com
so disagree with this and the dream suff am neutral
 
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I spoke with Ultima yesterday and he said that he'd try to give his thoughts today, so I'm mainly just waiting for him
 
Yeah, I'm waiting until the end of the week and then I am going to ask for pages to be opened, assuming nothing changes.

Edit: Ultima stated that he'd be fine with me applying this at the end of the week if he is unable to respond to this thread.
 
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Eseseso said:
Yeah, I'm waiting until the end of the week and then I am going to ask for pages to be opened, assuming nothing changes.

Edit: Ultima stated that he'd be fine with me applying this at the end of the week if he is unable to respond to this thread.
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Personally think you should wait until Friday. You have enough votes to get it approved and if Ultima disagrees he can always make a downgrade thread.
 
VeryGoofyToddler2 said:
That's the thing, being beyond time and space doesn't merit qualitatively superiority over it. It being conceptual doesn't really add anything to it. Unless it's some sort of core platonic conceptual realm.
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Uh..To be 1-A you need to have qualitative superiority over reality,space and time.
 
Livinmeme said:
Uh..To be 1-A you need to have qualitative superiority over reality,space and time.
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Yes, I mentioned that on the basis that the description given wasn’t enough. In that there isn’t anything to suggest qualitatively superiority over space, time, and reality just on the basis it’s “beyond” those said concepts.
 
As I am applying this stuff to like 40 different pages, I would like to add that earlier today I did speak to Ultima on Discord and, while he didn't check out the Astral Plane stuff yet, he did say that 1-A for the Abstracts was fine due to the R>F that it has over the High 1-B cosmology like I described in the OP (and the fact that they already have BDE 2 helps a lot).

As for possible anti-feats via interaction due to magic stuff, the fact is that magic is not only stated/shown constantly to be a higher-dimensional force, but it is a force from before the multiverse itself that plays a large part in sustaining the entirety of Earth-616.
 
Eseseso said:
As I am applying this stuff to like 40 different pages, I would like to add that earlier today I did speak to Ultima on Discord and, while he didn't check out the Astral Plane stuff yet, he did say that 1-A for the Abstracts was fine due to the R>F that it has over the High 1-B cosmology like I described in the OP (and the fact that they already have BDE 2 helps a lot).

As for possible anti-feats via interaction due to magic stuff, the fact is that magic is not only stated/shown constantly to be a higher-dimensional force, but it is a force from before the multiverse itself that plays a large part in sustaining the entirety of Earth-616.
Click to expand...
You should be good to do so since all the mods agree.
 
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