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Death Battle Season Seven Discussion Thread (4) (Death Battle Spoilers Alert)

Most of the q/a segment seems par for the course. I see none of them brought up that Slayers can buff their AP by eating stuff way above their Pay Grade. Natsu went from 6-C to 6-A by eating fire from a dragon.

I'm also pissed that they said Esdeath and Gray were similar in speed.
 
ZephyrosOmega said:
Most of the q/a segment seems par for the course. I see none of them brought up that Slayers can buff their AP by eating stuff way above their Pay Grade. Natsu went from 6-C to 6-A by eating fire from a dragon.
I'm also pissed that they said Esdeath and Gray were similar in speed.
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I know your anger.

Especially when they said Esdeath and Gray are similar in speed and then acknowledges Wonder Woman can blitz and oneshot Thor because of her crazy speed feat plus the magic sword that "can slices things on an atomic level", and then gives Shredder the win against Silver Samurai who is much faster and, you guessed it, has a superpower of literally "slicing up anything".

Hell they did not even try to pull out good estimates of a no prep time Esdeath from a prep time Esdeath. Nor did they talk about Shikoutazer and tatsumi whom Esdeath is in the same ballpark with. Just one important note: the feat yield from Rooster Teeth Shikoutazer is far higher than those obtained by G1 bloggers and by our site. Hence why they said the physical power is still much larger in comparison.

I see they wat to pull out good shit, but they half-shit it from time to time and cannot shit the same way.
 
Even if it is, Gray is 100 to 500 times faster and can just eat her ice to amp to her level

The point is the Screwattack yield of ISCIC and Shikoutazer crater yield is much higher than anywhere else. Therefore they deem the idea that Gray can eat ice and turn the ice general's power against herself not very good. If the AP gap is not that massive, Gray would just blitz and seals the ice dominatrix straight away. Or just make her die a Weiss Schnee death.

EJthe24th said:
Do you guys think it would be weird if DB decided to do Freeza vs Megatro/Galvatro?
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Frieza vs Galvatron is actually possible if they decide that Frieza vs Mewtwo is overdone to a point of animal cruelty.
 
Jasonsith said:
8.1. Spoiler alert: the analysis for Machamp gets ridiculous.
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Elaborate, please?

Also: "Machamp is faster with throwing, but Goro's faster general punching speed, more solid attack potency and actual fighting skills makes the victory."

Pardon?

"MACHAMP is known as the POKéMON that has mastered every kind of martial arts. If it grabs hold of the foe with its four arms, the battle is all but over. The hapless foe is thrown far over the horizon." - Sapphire

"With four arms, it can attack and defend simultaneously. It's said to have mastered every martial art in the world." - Ultra Moon


Heck, if we allow scaling to pre-evolution, take a look at its very first stage, Machop:

"Loves to build its muscles. It trains in all styles of martial arts to become even stronger." - Red & Blue (Machop)


"Very powerful in spite of its small size. Its mastery of many types of martial arts makes it very tough." - Yellow (Machop)


"MACHOP exercises by hefting around a GRAVELER as if it were a barbell. There are some MACHOP that travel the world in a quest to master all kinds of martial arts." - Sapphire (Machop)

Although, a point against the idea of Machamp being a skilled martial artist is these:

"It can knock a train flying with a punch. However, it is terrible at delicate work using its fingers." - Pearl

"MACHAMP has the power to hurl anything aside. However, trying to do any work requiring care and dexterity causes its arms to get tangled. This POKéMON tends to leap into action before it thinks." - Ruby

"It can lift heavy loads with the greatest of ease. It can even heft dump trucks. But its clumsy fingers prevent it from doing any precision work." - Moon

"With four arms that react more quickly than it can think, it can execute many punches at once." - Shield


Sorry if I seem like I'm highballing Pokemon a bit too much here. I dunno Goro that well, so I'm a bit incredulous he's more skilled.

Although, going purely by Pokedex entries of Machamp, it seems Machamp's flaws are that it's less dextrous, & its arms react quicker than it can think.

If we scale to previous stages, Machamp is almost certainly a very skilled martial artist, if not experienced, & if it has stamina like Machop or Machoke's.... Well, Machop is never satisfied no matter how much it trains/works out, & its muscles never get sore nor cramped.

"It always goes at its full power, but this very tough and durable POKéMON never gets tired." - Gold (Machoke)

If Machamp's stamina for itself is anything like Machoke's for itself, I'm not sure if Goro has the stamina... then again, how often is Stamina relevant on Death Battle?

& you DID say you were going on the assumption of Death Battle downplaying Machoke, right?
 
Imaginym said:
Jasonsith said:
8.1. Spoiler alert: the analysis for Machamp gets ridiculous.
Click to expand...
ditto
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You did know that downplaying Machamp to a ridiculous level is the only way of pushing Goro to win this match where he should not.

Yes. I did say that by cherrypicking specific lines from the Pokedex, Machamp can be argued to be losing. But I also say that if they put serious attention to every Pokedex lines.

The line of "Spoiler alert: the analysis for Machamp gets ridiculous" comes from the mouth of the Death Battle Cast crew. It could mean that Machamp is ridiculously strong like "who knows". (Well most people should know, including myself.)
 
Jasonsith said:
You did know that downplaying Machamp to a ridiculous level is the only way of pushing Goro to win this match where he should not.

Yes. I did say that by cherrypicking specific lines from the Pokedex, Machamp can be argued to be losing. But I also say that if they put serious attention to every Pokedex lines.

The line of "Spoiler alert: the analysis for Machamp gets ridiculous" comes from the mouth of the Death Battle Cast crew. It could mean that Machamp is ridiculously strong like "who knows". (Well most people should know, including myself.)
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Yeah, sorry. I know you were writing it as a theoretical "What if they downplay Machamp to make Goro win?". Sorry if I was a bit rude or unpleasant.

I'm curious, how about the opposite side? Outlier or not, what are Goro's best feats? How high could his AP, Durability, SS, LS & Speed go? How are his stamina, intelligence, experience, skill feats?

What would they have to cherry pick for Goro to beat Machamp with cherry picking & high balling Goro, & no downplaying of Machamp, if possible?
 
Through very complete wonky scaling you can argue Planet Goro or Universe if you want the stuff even wankers are a bit apprehensive about. Speed would reach rela at best tho IIRC
 
^ And this is exactly why even if you used high-ends/wanks for both, Machamp still gets the better scaling at the end of the day. They really gotta be selective and dumb to have Goro win this.
 
According to the profiles, I think Machamp wins because it stomps in speed, Lifting Strength, Intelligence and so on. (Machamp: At least 7-A; Goro: High 8-C) The only thing is that the battle should be interesting to watch, but it is what the thread discusses.
 
Foxthefox1000 said:
Researchers and people on the blog might have Machamp at Low 6-C and low FTL. Slight upgrades from where this site places them, but yeah.
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They could, but how confident are you that they do? I mean, especially without scenes in the anime or a manga or such of a Machamp dodging light or lightning or the like, I'm skeptical what would bring Screw Attack/Death Battle to give a Pokemon a low FTL.

Especially if Machamp punches much slower & is stated to think slower than its arms can punch.

Of course, that supposes they don't just ignore the Pokedex entries, possibly claiming so because it's inconsistent or something. But AFAIK, SA/Death Battle usually composites, no?

What if they excluded the games & Pokedex canon entirely, used no scaling whatsoever & ONLY based Machamp on anime, manga & on-screen feats performed by Machamp? Would THAT Machamp be fair against Goro? No statements of any kind, since they could be dismissed as unreliable, just myths, unsupported by shown evidence, etc.
 
Imaginym said:
Foxthefox1000 said:
Researchers and people on the blog might have Machamp at Low 6-C and low FTL. Slight upgrades from where this site places them, but yeah.
Click to expand...
They could, but how confident are you that they do? I mean, especially without scenes in the anime or a manga or such of a Machamp dodging light or lightning or the like, I'm skeptical what would bring Screw Attack/Death Battle to give a Pokemon a low FTL.
Especially if Machamp punches much slower & is stated to think slower than its arms can punch.

Of course, that supposes they don't just ignore the Pokedex entries, possibly claiming so because it's inconsistent or something. But AFAIK, SA/Death Battle usually composites, no?

What if they excluded the games & Pokedex canon entirely, used no scaling whatsoever & ONLY based Machamp on anime, manga & on-screen feats performed by Machamp? Would THAT Machamp be fair against Goro? No statements of any kind, since they could be dismissed as unreliable, just myths, unsupported by shown evidence, etc.
Click to expand...
By anime feats, Machamp scales above Charizard who can lift a tank (real life tanks can weigh over 50 metric tons).

Machamp should casually stomp Dawn's Buneary and Brook's Happiny. Buneary can freeze a lake at 1.5926549e+13 joules. And Happiny can lift at ~37489344.423 kg.

Subsonic punching speed as determined by myself is by itself a Pokken feat.
 
Ahhh, okay. Although, I did say "no scaling whatsoever"; I wanna consider what if DB goes for the most absurd research methods, since they've gone without scaling in the past.

Does anime Machamp have any feats performed specifically by Machamp? Indepent of other Pokemon species, so not saying it's above Charizard or Buneary or such because in theory, you could dismiss those on the basis of different species.

(Plus, the anime is FULL of first stage 'mons going toe to toe with fully evolved 'mons, which DB might consider, for better or worse.)

Sorry for any bother.
 
Okay... Anime ONLY feats huh?

So some Machamp are used to clear logs which Ash cannot lift by himself.

A Machamp owned by Team Rocket can defeat Ash's Squirtle.

A large group of Machoke and Machamp are used to build bridges.

A wild Machamp can defeat a wild Ursaring and a Conkeldurr at the same time.

So there are some notable feats. But most are by Pokédex and composited anime and manga feats by scaling to other Pokémon feats. Maybe, they may look into wild Machop and wild Machoke feats too.

(As a side note: Since our site forum is closer and closer to the big migratio I suggest we backup our materials often ourselves. Do the backup for materials you think is essential and especially if no one else think so.)
 
Jasonsith said:
Okay... Anime ONLY feats huh?
So some Machamp are used to clear logs which Ash cannot lift by himself.

A Machamp owned by Team Rocket can defeat Ash's Squirtle.

A large group of Machine and Machamp are used to build bridges.

A wild Machamp can defeat a wild Ursaring and a Conkeldurr at the same time.

So there are some notable feats. But most are by Pokédex and composited anime and manga feats by scaling to other Pokémon feats. Maybe, they may look into wild Machop and wild Machoke feats too.

(As a side note: Since our site forum is closer and closer to the big migratio I suggest we backup our materials often ourselves. Do the backup for materials you think is essential and especially if no one else think so.)
Click to expand...
Thanks for the research! Pretty interesting!

I do wonder how much weight it'd be if it were of some of the heaviest wood like lignum vitae or (the much harder to spell) allocasuarina luehmannii. Depending on sources, wood density can be as high as about 1,260 or 1,330 kilograms per cubic meters .

I doubt the Machamp were working with such heavy wood, though. On the opposite end of the spectrum, balsa wood can be as light as just about 110 kilograms per cubic meters!
 
Sorvoe551 said:
Since DB will probably use it to lowball Machamp's strength, how much force does it take to push the big blocks in Sun and Moon?
Click to expand...
To attempt an extremely rough version, let's suppose the boulders are as big as Machamp & cubical. 1.6 meter cubes. Next, let's use a density of 2,700 kg/m^3, like our Wiki's Calculations Page says for continental crust, stone and earth. As far as I can tell, this is still less dense than limestone & granite, the latter being one of the most common materials.

A cube that's 1.6 meters in height, length & width should with that density should weigh about 4,320 kg. Since Machamp pushes the boulders, let's assume a 5 second timeframe. Let's also assume the cubic boulder is moved as far as it is big: 1.6 meters.

If I used Wolfram Alpha right, this should get the work needed: https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=[4320+kg]+[1.6+meters]+[5+seconds]^(-2)

276 Newtons. About 0.38 times an average human's bite force.

Our Wiki lists kinetic energy formula as: 0.5*M*V^2. In this case, velocity is 1.6 meters over 5 seconds, so 0.32 meters per second. This gets us.... 221.84 .

If that's in joules, that's 10-A. I wonder if I calculated something wrong....
 
@Jasonsith: That's not all that trumps pushing those boulders. (Although, my timeframe & sizes are based on estimates, so it's possible it's different. For all I know, there could be calculations of it that already exists.)


"Machop's muscles are special—they never get sore no matter how much they are used in exercise. This Pokémon has sufficient power to hurl a hundred adult humans."

"With its superhuman strength, it's able to throw a hundred people all at the same time. Its strength comes from lifting Graveler every day."

Unless those two entries are somehow talking about two different feats where the second refers to throwing one hundred people who are all children or teenagers rather than adults, it's all but stated outright that Machop can throw 100 adult humans, ALL AT ONCE.

We don't know how far, nor high it can throw them, but it does say it "hurls" them, which means with force, or as a noun meaning a throw, it is especially a violent throw! This is no small feat.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_body_weight#Average_weight_around_the_world

Even if you use the very lowest average, Bangladesh's 49.591 kg, Machop can still throw several hundred kg of humans (AT LEAST) more than those boulders may weigh!

>Machop has a better LS feat than Ride Pokemon Machamp moving that boulder.

Machop is also noted as being able to throw a number of Geodude at once, & easily hefts Graveler; It uses Graveler like barbells.

....But Geodude weighs only 20 kg, about the same as a 6 year old human girl. Also, an armless, sphere of granite (Or other stone, as many have density near 2700 kg.) 0.4 meters (Geodude's listed height.) in diameter would likely weigh over 91.8 kg. (Because of the mass of the uncalculated arms.)

Graveler only weighs 105 kg. (& Golem, while not mentioned in Machop's line's entries, weighs 300 kg.)

& Machoke gets involved, too! Not just because one of Machoke's feats is made a joke by its pre-evolution throwing 5000+ kg:

"MACHOKE's thoroughly toned muscles possess the hardness of steel. This POKéMON has so much strength, it can easily hold aloft a sumo wrestler on just one finger." (Both this & Machop's first "throw 100 human entries" are from Ruby, too!) For comparison, the heaviest real world sumo ever is a pitiful 265 kg.

Maybe it's the sumo being held on the area of one finger that makes it impressive?

Thankfully, Machoke has the excuse of wearing a power limiter belt & having a better feat: "It can lift a dump truck with one hand. Using that power, it helps people with heavy jobs."

"It happily carries heavy cargo to toughen up. It willingly does hard work for people."

Those, among other entries tell us Machoke is very much able & willing to lift heavy things, & the heavier the better. So how heavy is a dump truck, loaded, & unloaded?

It varies, as vehicles do, but results include: "Light weight (without any material in it): Approximate 28,000 lbs." & "EMPTY WEIGHT 24,200 pounds. 27,000 pounds is about normal on a Mack with a steel bed."

1 lb = 0.45359237 kilograms, so 24,200 lbs = 10,976.9354 kilograms. Already more than double what Machop is throwing, & one-handedly!

"Typically, a "dump" truck will weigh (when loaded) between 12,000 to 74,000 pounds."

"Federal law controls maximum gross vehicle weights and axle loads on the Interstate System. Federal limits are 80,000 pounds gross vehicle weight, 20,000 pounds on a single axle, and 34,000 pounds on a tandem axle group."

12,000 lbs = 5443.10844 kg, 74,000 lbs = 33,565.8354 kg, & 80,000 lbs = 36,287.3896 kilograms.

So Machoke definitely earns its Class 50 rating.


TL;DR - BOTH of Machamp's pre-evolutions have better lifting feats than Ride Pokemon Machamp pushing boulders. (& both also have seemingly laughable feats like "throwing a number of Geodude" (Each Geodude is about the weight of a 6 y/o girl.) or hefting a sumo on one finger when no real sumo has weighed over 265 kg.)
 
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