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DEATH BATTLE! Discussion Thread (2024–2025) (All-time Death Battle Spoilers Alert)

BlackDarkness679 said:
Buddy all jojo villains get ended by punch rush, thats not an argument against a literal bio from manga

It says there will and actions go to zero, a barrage aint proof its not working, also if joker is resisting this, i wanna see proof of that, not that "oh he resists all haxes ever", its not nlf either, reality warping was the only thing beating it and thats in non canon stuff
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Like I said, I understand that's what the bio says but my main point of contention is how it's actually shown.

No-one is arguing that GER doesn't reset actions to zero. It's been shown off plenty of times. That's not what I'm arguing either, it's the 'reset will' part. In Jojo willpower is almost as important as in Persona, especially 5. My argument was that even after the punch rush it didn't show that Diavolo no longer had the willpower necessary to summon his stand to try and fight back. If after that punch rush Diavolo couldn't summon his Stand anymore and sat there to get squashed by Giorno it'd do what is said on that bio.

I'm also not trying to argue that Joker has a NLF with his willpower either here, I'm only going with the examples that we've seen in the games/anime that have had more showings than the effects of RTZ. The entire endings of 5 Vanilla and Royal have shown that his willpower is enough to outhax gods and people who are capable of creating entire dimensions-worth of willpower-altering haxes. Not only did he resist 5's end boss and Maruki, he overwhelmed them and won.

I'm only trying to point out that Joker's abilities and wincons (and in this case wincon denials of Giorno) have far more showings and examples than GER's one appearance in canon.
 
Gyra1524 said:
Just because Giorno has the ability to revert will doesn't mean he used it against Diavolo, from what I recall he hasn't done it canonically the only time he has was in the non-canon Jorge Joestar novel against Pucci (at least that's what I've heard I cant find the scan unfortunately).
Click to expand...
Apologies for the double post, still getting used to forums again but this is another point.

If Giorno has this ability and has never shown it in canon I don't think it's fair to use it in the debate for this fight. I think it's why this whole debate is as contentious as it is because while I respect Giorno's abilities, him using GER is basically distilling him into Potential Man because of how vague it works from its one showing. And I know nobody is arguing against using GER at all for the debate because it's really not fair as he has the power at the end of Part 5.
 
BlackDarkness679 said:
So we cant use a power officially stated cuz it wasnt used, yeah no, its stated it exists, no ifs or buts, just cuz he didnt try to Diavolo doesnt mean you exclude it and im getting fed up of this joker wank of "he resists all these haxes" proof it never happened, it gets old to just hear talk on his side
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All I'm saying is that if it were any other character that had a one sentence ability listed that they never showed in actual canon, people would be doubting its reliability in a vs debate. This isn't strictly a Giorno downplay or Joker wank in this regard, it's how discussing abilities against other ones work. Not to mention debating when verse-equalization comes into play.

I think Giorno has a lot of abilities that are great for vs debating and can play off of combatants really well. Life-shot, aging up, life creation are really cool abilities that are rad to think about how other powers interact. It's just that Joker has plenty of resistances to most of them being a JRPG character that has so many abilities/passives/items/etc that make a lot of that not as debatable than someone who comes from like another manga/anime.

Like Toma from A Certain Magical Index's power is his right arm negates all supernatural phenomenon, would we argue that it shuts down Stands entirely, even GER? Does he solo Jojoverse because of that one sentence? That's all I'm trying to argue here, and perhaps I'm not arguing it the best because I've never actually done much VS debating personally, just been watching it for years.
 
PonePoster said:
What does turning a person's "will" to zero even mean in this context? Will people affected by this lose all desire to fight and be left comatose? Isnt that just empathic manipulation? If Jonkler resists that it's gg then right
Click to expand...
I know it wouldn’t work on him, but it’s the funniest idea to me. Imagine The Phantom Thieves just writing their calling card and mid way through Giorno’s ability hits and then they’re just like
 
SpecterSkater said:
All I'm saying is that if it were any other character that had a one sentence ability listed that they never showed in actual canon, people would be doubting its reliability in a vs debate. This isn't strictly a Giorno downplay or Joker wank in this regard, it's how discussing abilities against other ones work. Not to mention debating when verse-equalization comes into play.

I think Giorno has a lot of abilities that are great for vs debating and can play off of combatants really well. Life-shot, aging up, life creation are really cool abilities that are rad to think about how other powers interact. It's just that Joker has plenty of resistances to most of them being a JRPG character that has so many abilities/passives/items/etc that make a lot of that not as debatable than someone who comes from like another manga/anime.

Like Toma from A Certain Magical Index's power is his right arm negates all supernatural phenomenon, would we argue that it shuts down Stands entirely, even GER? Does he solo Jojoverse because of that one sentence? That's all I'm trying to argue here, and perhaps I'm not arguing it the best because I've never actually done much VS debating personally, just been watching it for years.
Click to expand...
In regards to reverting will to zero, it isn't just a one sentence ability that isn't brought up again. GER being able to revert will to zero is something that is stated in quite literally all pieces of official JoJo media that GER appears in, both canon and noncanon. It is something that GER can 100% do, it couldn't be reiterated any further. The issue arises with as you said, GER didn't use it in canon, so arguing it in matchups can be a bit tricky as the exact mechanics of how it functions isn't clear and up for debate. GER did use in the Jorge Joestar light novel where it works as people thinks it does; it makes you no longer able to even want to do stuff against him. Whilst the novel is non-canon, it is also an official piece of JoJo media that Araki endorsed and is therefore infinitely more reliable than any other explanation as to how it works. I don't think you're exactly in the wrong for questioning it's reliability and how it should be used, but likewise it has it stated exhaustively that GER can do it and an official piece of JoJo shows GER doing it and works people think it does so there is also a strong case for saying GER reverting will to zero should be used in the matchup.

People tend to be to forget this as well, but GER also straight up has Power nullification that completely nullifies all your abilities, as stated in JoJoveller. It's also pretty strong as GER power nulled abilities that could erase time itself on a universal scale as well as precognition that foretells 100% fated actions and occurrences including Giorno's own fated death. It would also work well Giorno's other possible wincons. Say death battle has Joker not being able to resist RTZ and he doesn't inheritly resist Age manipulation but can combat it through the use of dia spells for example. GER could then use age manip on Joker and since RTZ would nullify all of Joker's abilities in this scenario, Joker would no longer be able to use dia spells to combat the age manip and would thus succumb to it. It's a pretty powerful thing that RTZ can do which is crucial to some of Giorno's wincons. (You could also argue that GER reverting all of Joker's actions means that RTZ just straight up won't allow Joker to use dia spells to save himself, even if he could otherwise)

For the Touma thing. Stands in the original universe were originated from an alien virus that spawned from a meteorite crashing into the Earth thousands of years ago. Would that even qualify as supernatural causes?
 
DRW001 said:
In regards to reverting will to zero, it isn't just a one sentence ability that isn't brought up again. GER being able to revert will to zero is something that is stated in quite literally all pieces of official JoJo media that GER appears in, both canon and noncanon. It is something that GER can 100% do, it couldn't be reiterated any further. The issue arises with as you said, GER didn't use it in canon, so arguing it in matchups can be a bit tricky as the exact mechanics of how it functions isn't clear and up for debate. GER did use in the Jorge Joestar light novel where it works as people thinks it does; it makes you no longer able to even want to do stuff against him. Whilst the novel is non-canon, it is also an official piece of JoJo media that Araki endorsed and is therefore infinitely more reliable than any other explanation as to how it works. I don't think you're exactly in the wrong for questioning it's reliability and how it should be used, but likewise it has it stated exhaustively that GER can do it and an official piece of JoJo shows GER doing it and works people think it does so there is also a strong case for saying GER reverting will to zero should be used in the matchup.

People tend to be to forget this as well, but GER also straight up has Power nullification that completely nullifies all your abilities, as stated in JoJoveller. It's also pretty strong as GER power nulled abilities that could erase time itself on a universal scale as well as precognition that foretells 100% fated actions and occurrences including Giorno's own fated death. It would also work well Giorno's other possible wincons. Say death battle has Joker not being able to resist RTZ and he doesn't inheritly resist Age manipulation but can combat it through the use of dia spells for example. GER could then use age manip on Joker and since RTZ would nullify all of Joker's abilities in this scenario, Joker would no longer be able to use dia spells to combat the age manip and would thus succumb to it. It's a pretty powerful thing that RTZ can do which is crucial to some of Giorno's wincons. (You could also argue that GER reverting all of Joker's actions means that RTZ just straight up won't allow Joker to use dia spells to save himself, even if he could otherwise)

For the Touma thing. Stands in the original universe were originated from an alien virus that spawned from a meteorite crashing into the Earth thousands of years ago. Would that even qualify as supernatural causes?
Click to expand...
Yeah, but that could fall under no-limits fallacy. Joker has gone against far stronger foes with similar abilities and come out on top.
 
DRW001 said:
In regards to reverting will to zero, it isn't just a one sentence ability that isn't brought up again. GER being able to revert will to zero is something that is stated in quite literally all pieces of official JoJo media that GER appears in, both canon and noncanon. It is something that GER can 100% do, it couldn't be reiterated any further. The issue arises with as you said, GER didn't use it in canon, so arguing it in matchups can be a bit tricky as the exact mechanics of how it functions isn't clear and up for debate. GER did use in the Jorge Joestar light novel where it works as people thinks it does; it makes you no longer able to even want to do stuff against him. Whilst the novel is non-canon, it is also an official piece of JoJo media that Araki endorsed and is therefore infinitely more reliable than any other explanation as to how it works. I don't think you're exactly in the wrong for questioning it's reliability and how it should be used, but likewise it has it stated exhaustively that GER can do it and an official piece of JoJo shows GER doing it and works people think it does so there is also a strong case for saying GER reverting will to zero should be used in the matchup.

People tend to be to forget this as well, but GER also straight up has Power nullification that completely nullifies all your abilities, as stated in JoJoveller. It's also pretty strong as GER power nulled abilities that could erase time itself on a universal scale as well as precognition that foretells 100% fated actions and occurrences including Giorno's own fated death. It would also work well Giorno's other possible wincons. Say death battle has Joker not being able to resist RTZ and he doesn't inheritly resist Age manipulation but can combat it through the use of dia spells for example. GER could then use age manip on Joker and since RTZ would nullify all of Joker's abilities in this scenario, Joker would no longer be able to use dia spells to combat the age manip and would thus succumb to it. It's a pretty powerful thing that RTZ can do which is crucial to some of Giorno's wincons. (You could also argue that GER reverting all of Joker's actions means that RTZ just straight up won't allow Joker to use dia spells to save himself, even if he could otherwise)

For the Touma thing. Stands in the original universe were originated from an alien virus that spawned from a meteorite crashing into the Earth thousands of years ago. Would that even qualify as supernatural causes?
Click to expand...
Much appreciated, you hit the reason or my questioning of its legitimacy of its inclusion right on the head. I have no problems with its power being expanded on in non-canon media, but using that to argue solely on how it works brings up its other issues with this debate. If we're using non-canon material to go over how RTZ can work in this fight, do we also bring up how GER had no effect on Dio Over Heaven or does that conflict with how it works in the Jorge novel? If both sources were overseen by Araki how do we determine which one is the correct way to scale and apply its abilities. That's where my knowledge ends because I am nowhere near as versed in the Jojo side of things as I am Persona. Thank you for filling me in on some finer details of GER's abilities.

For the Power Null argument you put there, I do want to point out that Joker is also well-versed in fighting against fated events due to being a Trickster and has showings of overcoming fated actions (With both the Fortune Teller and Maruki) So then we get to a fate overwrite matchup which is a pretty interesting discussion.

And then for the final part, I feel like they do count as Supernatural causes because Touma is from a world where magic is the norm, and he still can just no-sell all sorts of magic. Now granted I have like no knowledge of Index either, but I remember seeing him and his verse brought up often in VS debating here and on other sites.
 
LegendariumOfLies said:
Yeah, but that could fall under no-limits fallacy. Joker has gone against far stronger foes with similar abilities and come out on top.
Click to expand...
I think it depends. RTZ is stated to be the 'ultimate', 'supreme' and 'godlike' ability in JoJo's, with statistics that cannot measured by the stands stats (which go up to infinity) nor can be compared to any other stand, with JoJoagogo even calling it the ultimate ability that reduces 'everything' to nothing. All of this would include abilities such as those that can accelerate time to infinity (or to the limit of conceivable infinity if you buy the interview, whatever that means) and reset the universe, dimensions walls that lead to an infinite amount of universes and reflect probability as well as abilities that can transcend dimensions and logic itself. So yeah, JoJo does treat RTZ as very very strong and can nullify a lot of powerful things.

With this in mind, it shouldn't be a NLF to say that RTZ can power null basic and agi or dia spells. Joker using Sinful Shell however would be more contentious and we would have to argue what both sides have done and where they scale to see if RTZ can power null it or not.

Also I'm strictly speaking about RTZ's power nullification here, not reverting actions to zero. Returning actions to zero would moreso take the opponent's state of existence into account, rather than whatever abilities they possess (unless said abilities are integrated into a character's existence)
 
DRW001 said:
I think it depends. RTZ is stated to be the 'ultimate', 'supreme' and 'godlike' ability in JoJo's, with statistics that cannot measured by the stands stats (which go up to infinity) nor can be compared to any other stand, with JoJoagogo even calling it the ultimate ability that reduces 'everything' to nothing. All of this would include abilities such as those that can accelerate time to infinity (or to the limit of conceivable infinity if you buy the interview, whatever that means) and reset the universe, dimensions walls that lead to an infinite amount of universes and reflect probability as well as abilities that can transcend dimensions and logic itself. So yeah, JoJo does treat RTZ as very very strong and can nullify a lot of powerful things.

With this in mind, it shouldn't be a NLF to say that RTZ can power null basic and agi or dia spells. Joker using Sinful Shell however would be more contentious and we would have to argue what both sides have done and where they scale to see if RTZ can power null it or not.

Also I'm strictly speaking about RTZ's power nullification here, not reverting actions to zero. Returning actions to zero would moreso take the opponent's state of existence into account, rather than whatever abilities they possess (unless said abilities are integrated into a character's existence)
Click to expand...
Agreed, I feel like it's not a NLF to say that GER could reduce most things (or perhaps more accurately all things in Part 5) to zero according to that book. I think while the term 'NLF' gets thrown around a lot in Vs Debating, the full scope of this abilities limits has to come into question when we bring in other universes. I'm sure I'm not the only one not wanting to see a return of "only holy weapons can kill Ganondorf, so Bowser is screwed"

Now granted DB's research has come a long way since then, so I don't exactly feel like that's a possibility. It's going to come down to where the research team supposes the Persona Verse and Jojoverse measure up in the scales of their abilities.

Though this does make me wonder why Pucci in Stone Ocean didn't decide to try and steal GER if it was this powerful. Could just be that he never knew it existed, but I feel like a fanboy of Dio on his level would know where his son is and if he had a Stand. Maybe he did, I honestly lost track of Jojos after part 4.
 
SpecterSkater said:
Though this does make me wonder why Pucci in Stone Ocean didn't decide to try and steal GER if it was this powerful. Could just be that he never knew it existed, but I feel like a fanboy of Dio on his level would know where his son is and if he had a Stand. Maybe he did, I honestly lost track of Jojos after part 4.
Click to expand...
Yeah Pucci just straight up didn't know that Giorno existed. In fact, the sons of Dio were quite literally fated to be drawn to Pucci and follow him, that's how Pucci met 3 of Dio's sons. But Giorno just... didn't show up. Even Giorno's bio in part 6 points this out, saying he was a son of Dio and should be drawn to Pucci, but he just wasn't and the bio wonders why. You can throw this in the pile of Giorno saying 'nah' to fate.
 
DRW001 said:
Yeah Pucci just straight up didn't know that Giorno existed. In fact, the sons of Dio were quite literally fated to be drawn to Pucci and follow him, that's how Pucci met 3 of Dio's sons. But Giorno just... didn't show up. Even Giorno's bio in part 6 points this out, saying he was a son of Dio and should be drawn to Pucci, but he just wasn't and the bio wonders why. You throw this in the pile of Giorno saying 'nah' to fate.
Click to expand...
See now that is fascinating. I haven't heard that point brought up from any Giorno defenders on here or the DB reddit yet, and that's not a bad piece of evidence in the argument between the two. I'd say it's a pretty good matchup to how Joker can changed the fated events of the fortune-teller's tarot readings personally.
 
In the end it doesn't matter what esoteric hax, vague one off statements Giorno has, Outer-Man Jonkler will BLINK and disintegrate the entire planet on accident. Death? UNAVOIDABLE.
 
I was about to make a joke about Joker soloing DC based on our sites stats but I just noticed we got shit like outerversal Lucifer and Presence back
 
Yeah looks like they did, even got shit like true form Darkseid being bumped back up to tier 1 and I think higher than he used to be? He's 1-B now and I'm 90% sure he peaked at Low 1-C before the site downgraded him to 2-C. Still weird we have Skyfathers one shotting him tho.
 
ZeNoviceArtist said:
Why was DC lowered to 6D on this site?
Click to expand...
There was a brief fad in the vs community of debunking all references to higher dimensional stuff in DC as just being about poetic/narrative layer stuff that didn't actually layer the way people thought. There's been significant push-back against that though. In addition, the meta changed when they reworked the tiering system to distinguish between qualitative and quantitative transcendence more strictly, which has basically turned a lot of the old metas on their heads.
 
Peter_Quicksilver_Maximoff said:
Joker-55% of winning
Girono-45% of winning
Click to expand...
Return to zero returns Joker's chances of winning back to 0 so Giorno gets a 100% win rate

ZeNoviceArtist said:
I might get bonked for this, but is it selfcest if you have intercourse with your persona/stand?
Click to expand...
TIME TO FIND OUT
il3SBLO.jpeg
 
I'm gonna place my bets now.
  1. Joker will ultimately win.
  2. Joker will either not be scaled to what he's at here, or GER will be given the Infinite Stats argument to make the fight seem more comparable.
  3. There will be a cool scene where Joker breaks out of RTZ (or the Death Loop if they go for the 'it only needs to touch you' argument) and Giorno says something like, "That's impossible!" before getting put in the ground (possibly with a Sinful Shell, which is even more likely if summoning Satanael is how he gets out of GER's ability.)
 
ShawnFaux said:
There will be a cool scene where Joker breaks out of RTZ (or the Death Loop if they go for the 'it only needs to touch you' argument) and Giorno says something like, "That's impossible!" before getting put in the ground (possibly with a Sinful Shell, which is even more likely if summoning Satanael is how he gets out of GER's ability.)
Click to expand...
“I am the impossible”-Joker probably
 
ShawnFaux said:
Joker will either not be scaled to what he's at here, or GER will be given the Infinite Stats argument to make the fight seem more comparable.
Click to expand...
You know thats a good point, will he be given basically the equivalent of high 3-A from here cuz of the stand stats

Can be argued maybe, but thats stretching it, to be above the spin from part 7, which are literally infinite
 
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