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DC Comics - The Legendary DC Heralds Upgrade

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Question, what’s the argument against Superman taking on Nebula man, who’s stated to be a literal universe by more than one source? That sounds like an easy tier 3-tier 2 feat to me
 
But he’s stated to be a living universe though, I don’t really see how him being human sized when he’s from some other dimension debunks the statement that he’s a universe.
 
Theglassman12 said:
But he’s stated to be a living universe though, I don’t really see how him being human sized when he’s from some other dimension debunks the statement that he’s a universe.
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Because universes are Tier 3 and Tier 2 due to their size, not the basic fact that they are an independent dimension of space time.

Characters or objects that can create or destroy all celestial bodies within a finite 3-D space at least equivalent in size to the observable universe via an omnidirectional explosion that covers the entire space, alternately create or significantly affect[1] a 3-D universe or a pocket dimension of comparable size
 
It would be comparable size though

Not on the outset cuz he'd look humanoid, but being a living universe implies he has the contents of a universe inside of him
 
Hmm, fair enough, I'll concede on that point given he's even stated to be in a pre-mature state.

Assuming this is the full list of feats

I'm fine with infinite man's space time energy be used as a supporting feat.

Put me on agree with Infinite man being on Darkseid's level and stalemating time trapper, seems straightforward enough.

Shazam and Lobo rocking the cosmos yeah seems to vague to use, don't really see it being viable to use here.

Captain Atom and Monarchs universes exploding feat looks fine to use.

Infinite Man's sculpting space time and destroying the universe looks good to me.

Monarch being comparable to Dreamslayer and Darkseid is fine.

Extant defeating Doctor Fate looks fine.

Hourman having infinite power I'm not sure we can use this as an AP feat, this sounds similar to the Androids in Dragon Ball where they're stated to have infinite power, but it's mostly on the fact that their energy lasts forever, not that they can destroy infinite mass. At best this might be supporting evidence, but there'd need to be some elaboration, so put me in disagree for now.

Adam tanking Fate's helmet might work? Assuming the helmet is always on par with Fate it should be fine.

Put me in disagree for laying waste to Starbreaker laying waste to galactic clusters, it's way too vague to qualify this to being tier 3.

Wally fighting Pre-Crisis RF seems fine, Speed Force already makes him fluctuate in his power level depending on what he's doing so it doesn't really seem like an outlier to me.

put me on Neutral to Starbreaker's merging universe feat.

Yeah same as Hourman, Infinite Man's power having infinite power should be at best supporting evidence.

Dreggs having the power of the universe is a bit weird, probably supporting evidence at best.

New gods of Genesis making universes seems fine, they show it and state it explicitly.

Orion's astro-force put me on agree, looks straightforward enough.

Orion controlling the fundamental forces of the universe sounds more like a hax ability than an AP thing, don't really see this as viable for an AP feat.

Darkseid tanking a bomb that rips apart existence sounds like Existence Erasure resistance than any AP feat, so hard disagree.

Wonder Woman tanking a blast of infinite power looks good, they did mention it's destruction multiplied to the infinite power, so it's more AP focused than some energy thing.

Unsure about the light speed reaching infinite mass feat, put me on neutral since that's a bit too wonky for me to pick a side.

Wonder Woman rivaling Circe is fine, though I'm neutral on Circe's feat.

Superman being comparable to Monarch is fine, even if he had some help of the Justice League he'd at bare minimum downscale from him.

Superman being implied to beat Extant is not really elaborated on since he got a cheap shot in before someone hit him.

The big bang energy for supes, dark star and atom hard disagree, it not being enough and Spectre having to do it for them makes this invalid to use for them.

Aztek's 4-D energy I'm not sure, don't know how that's treated in terms of feats so put me in neutral.

Tesseract feat is fine, at the very least it's good lifting strength feats for Supes.

Superman's universe collapse feat I'm not too sure on, the context is a bit weird so put me in neutral.

Superman's universe senses is good.

Superman tanking blows from child brainiac with the tesseract is fine by me.

Put me in disagree with entropy Aegis, seems to unreliant for it to be used.

Same with the nebula man argument.

the two superman clashes looks fine to me, seems very similar to Gogeta and Broly's clashes, only more explicit on what happened.

Captain atom stuff looks fine for Supes.

Superman hurting the Red King looks good to me.

Blackstar having energy of the cosmos doesn't sound like an AP thing, disagree.

Reactron doesn't seem viable if he was lying, so disagree.

Superboy scaling to prime looks good.

Superman tanking a blast from Mordu and harming him seems fine.

Superman somewhat keeping up with time trapper is fine.

I'll look through the rest when I'm free later today.
 
Antvasima said:
Weaker how? This version of the Anti-Monitor was explicitly severely damaged from a 3-C level attack.
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An even more damaged Anti-Monitor was capable of throwing out Low 2-C attacks. (I forgot to mention Superboy Prime was also caught in the blast along with Golden-Age)
Antvasima said:
Can you show me references please?
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If you mean scaling from Prime, sure. (Here, here and here.) But for the infinite power/remaking the Universe feats, just look at the 'Green Lantern' portion of the thread.
Antvasima said:
Based on what feats and scaling?
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Scaling to Doctor Fate, and killing numerous Lords of Order.
Antvasima said:
Not reliably. He really was all over the place as well.
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He only seemed 'out of place' during the Golden Age, and during his fight with Post-Crisis -- other than that, he has numerous scaling to pre-Crisis characters, and his own universal-tanking feat.
Antvasima said:
We do not scale the Wally West Flash from it currently. I think that a revision headed by @Firestorm808 or possibly @Confluctor revised it as a massive outlier from his itherwise displayed power levels.
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Bart Allen absorbed the entire speed-force in order to entrap against Superboy Prime. At the very least, that should make him comparable to Barry Allen going at lightspeed.
Antvasima said:
As far as I recall, the changes that he imposed via chain-reaction, such as resurrecting Jason Todd, were minor though.
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Can you show the proof or explain to me how it was done via chain-reaction?
Antvasima said:
We do not accept to scale from it, but it still happened, just like a character that was tier Low 2-C at his peak was regularly harmed by at best tier 5 character such as Cassie Sandsmark. Why should we selectively only scale him to the characters that you prefer to be included and not ignore them together with all of the other nonsense outliers?
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Superboy Prime has way more Tier 2 justification than either Tier 4 or Tier 5. Also, dude, the Outerversal shenanigans was a one-time thing, and is nowhere near as consistent. Not to mention that when he fought both Cassie and Superboy, not only did he absolutely floor the both of them, but killed Superboy in the process.
Antvasima said:
No, it was stated that his reserves were beginning to run out due to Monarch pushing his limits, and then the Low 2-C explosion spent them almost completely.
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I re-read it, and yeah you're right.
Antvasima said:
That seems to be an explicit power level feat, which our wiki considers far more reliable than who can fight who matchup results, but I may misunderstand your point here.
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My point is that with as how large of a Tier Low Multiversal is, being knocked out by a Low 2-C Attack when amped doesn't mean he isn't Low 2-C normally; just that his amp let him survive a higher-end 2-C attack.
 
After reading the original post, most of this is bad comprehension on your part, scaling stuff that belongs to different canons and doesn't mix, and just not right.

A few examples:

Alan Scott's death would destroy the Solar System, as stated in JSA #19.
One of the first and most important things rookie Lanterns are taught is the importance of concentration and focus, as we can see in Green Lantern Corps #27.
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Alan Scott is a Green lantern in name only. His powers do not work the same way, as explicitly stated in a comic written by the same writers from that first scan around that same time-period.

He is (or at least was when that scene was written) an avatar of the Green Flame, as in if he died he would simply be releasing the entire Flame. This just means that the Green Flame, if released all at once, would be about as strong as a star (except if a star exploded it would probably be worse than that).

This can be shown further with this scene from Justice League #1, where even Batman can snatch an unfocused Hal's ring.
Click to expand...
That's not the same continuity.

The whole point of a tesseract and pocket-dimensions as a whole is that they don't manifest in the standard standard with all their might. Unless you also think that the Soul Gem from Marvel should weight trillions of tons since it also contains a pocket dimension in itself. Or Kirby from the videogames. He literally has an universe inside him but weighs as much as a balloon.

Wonder Woman withstands and deflects a fireball with infinite power. (Wonder Woman Vol. 2 #21, October 1988)
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Yeah, let's just ignore that throughout that entire run Wonder Woman was struggling against mid-tier/building-level beings, that in that scene she had her bracelets taking the majority of the attacks and really was only meant to tank the aftershock, and that all references to infinity were just fancy purple-prose by Perez.

Superman fights and takes hits from the Entropy Aegis while explicitly stated to be holding back. (Superman: The Man of Steel #134, March 2003). The Entropy Aegis is stated to be the power to remake and destroy the universe. (Superman Versus Darkseid: Apokolips Now, March 2003)
Click to expand...
The Entropy Aegis possessed that kind of potential because it channeled Imperiex's own power. That doesn't mean any user, much less a human losing control of himself, would suddenly be able to channel the entire essence of Imperiex through them.

Also, the comic where that quote comes from is awfully written overall, but I guess writing isn't actually a concern, what matters is statements.

Superman staggered the Red King, made him yell in pain, and survived an attack from him while weakened (JLA Classified Vol. 1 #35, April 2007), and was confident he could fight the Red King for an extended period of time(JLA Classified Vol. 1 #36, May 2007)
The Red King destroyed realities (JLA Classified Vol. 1 #35, April 2007) multipletimes, with these realities containing multiple Universes (JLA Classified Vol. 1 #36, May 2007)
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The Red King was a man who accidentally gained access to some of Doctor Destiny's Materioptikon powers, specifically the power to reset the timeline once per every human alive on Earth. So basically Red King had the extremely specific hax power of being able to go back in time and retry an event six billion times. That's it.

He didn't have the raw power to destroy entire universes or anything of the sort, he had a very specific time-travel hax. And he eventually retried the same events so many times that he managed to make himself a huge celebrity with a ton of money and connections, and he used those resources to make himself a supervillain using technology. But he didn't actually have the raw power to destroy universes or timelines or anything of the sort, he was leeching off of a secondary effect of one of Doctor Destiny's failed plans.

By the time the Red King had actually managed to manipulate events well-enough that he had acquired powers himself, he only had three "resets" left. That's what the entire story-arc was about, Red King trying to use the resources he had amassed for himself to conquer the world knowing that he had three chances to succeed. Spoiler-alert: he failed.

While some question Red King's power in battle, he's pretty blatantly capable of destroying Universes,
Click to expand...
It is left completely 100% clear that once he reached the end of Doctor Destiny's time-hax that had been collected from the dreams of every single human on Earth, there was no resetting power left. Red King from that point onward was a standard team-busting villain.

He actually died from the power of his own doomsday device in of the timeline resets.

There can also be an argument made for Supes scaling to Destiny
Click to expand...
There is no argument to be made anywhere that Superman scales to Destiny, otherwise you have done it. you already pulled every single straw you could possibly find to justify this and pretending it was power-scaling.

Superman separates two worlds (Batman/Superman Vol. 2 #21, October 2021
These worlds are represented as tapes, the literal fabric of reality (Batman/Superman Vol. 2 #17, June 2021), and each strip is a different reality (Batman/Superman Vol. 2 #20, September 2021)
Click to expand...
So literally not the same as moving universes through direct physical power?

Why is that impressive?

Anyone can tear a piece of tape.

Superman overpowers Nebula Man, who is stated to be a universe.
(JLA Classified #2, March 2005)Nebula Man is confirmed to be a universe. (Seven Soldiers: Frankenstein #4, May 2006)
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Nebula-Man is a miniature universe. As in, the planets inside him are probably as big as molecules.

That's not an indication of raw power. A standard human being could pick up Nebula-Man and move him. Being an universe means jackshit for power.

This makes sense since he's no longer a baby Universe like as Qwewq, but now is an adult.
Click to expand...
What does this even mean? "Baby" Qwewq was already a standard universe. That's actually the point in Qwewq's lifespan where the planet Earth and our civilization in particular existed inside him.

When he "grew" into an adult he didn't change properties, he just grew slightly bigger (because universes expand) and developed a mind. It's not stated anywhere that his properties changed.

. And for one last thing to add on, even if Nebula Man was just a small, mini Universe, he would still be composed of an infinite amount of these tiny planets and stars, so even then he'd still be High Universal.
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Yeah, being composed of atom-sized planets that have no meaningful ability to affect the standard scale DC Universe c clearly makes someone "High-universal".

Random Gods of New Genesis are capable of creating universes. (Mister Miracle Vol. 3 #1, April 1996)
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That's a reference to Mister Miracle issue 9 from the original series, where the people in Apokolips searched for escape by creating hologram-like projections of their minds. They weren't meant to be literal universes and I'm pretty sure the woman in that scene was doing the same thing. "Universe" was figurative speech.



This whole post is somewhat an exaggeration in misinformation. The only reason I even feel the need to debunk any of it is to inform people without any previous knowledge. because anyone who actually does have the knowledge can debunk on all of this.
 
Alright back.

Flodo's feat I'm unsure of, so put me in neutral for that.

GLC central battery is good for a universal feat.

Hal surviving Sinestro's attacks is another one I'm a bit iffy on, on the one hand he did tank blows from him but on the other hand the amp from the guardian is what gave it to him. Maybe a separate tier for the amp unless Hal is capable of reaching this level on his own then sure.

The conduit to infinity scan again might just be access to endless amount of energy as opposed to an AP feat. at best this can be a supporting feat if there's more context to the conduit to infinity.

The shield against the big bang may be viable? Though Firestorm does bring some points in regards to it just them viewing it from a time viewer unless more context is given.

Hal making a city idk why is being listed here so.

Was Kyle surviving the big bang retconned? If so then I guess we can't use it.

Guardians scaling to the batteries sounds fine, it makes the sinestro Hal jordan feat more consistent with the context of the guardians.

world inside of Kyle's ring is fine, though do they mean worlds like planets or entire universes? Because if the latter then it could add more consistency to the lanterns being universal.

Guardians and controllers having big bang level power is fine by me, again more consistent with the guardians being on par with the batteries and scaling to some universal feats.

Kyle and Anarky reverting the universe back to normal is fine by me.

put me in neutral on the Willworld feat, though the universes there should be good supporting evidence at least.

Ion remaking the universe put me in agree with, though the power of the universe line should be supporting evidence for the former feat. Infinite power again should be supporting evidence for Ion's remaking the universe feat.

Mogo's limitless power line, again same as above, context is kind of needed, so supporting evidence at best.

Jon's star system feat sounds a bit more of an anti-feat for universal heralds imo, if his willpower made it to where the ring's capability couldn't sustain an entire star system.

Hal's Black Lantern feat seems good to me.

Kyle scaling to Starheart is fine, though I'm not a big fan of using an online website's general summary of a story as evidence. It's the equivalent of using a random wiki article as opposed to having statements in the comics that says otherwise.

There's no scan for the Hal killing Krona, but I'm gonna assume that's what happens, which if so is fine.

Fighting the guardians with the emotional amps seems ok to me.

Does Barry and Godspeed survive the attack? If they do then it's fine, cause the current scan doesn't show the aftermath.

Mr. Terrific statement is fine.

Superman shaking the phantom zone is legit in my eyes.

Superman surviving attacks from Molly is fine, being amped by several things, including a device that can make universes implode helps.

The Barbatos feat seems ok.

Autear.io's feat is ok as well.

Superman separating the film seems to be ok, though this does seem very specific to giant superman so maybe a separate key with this superman would be needed unless this is something superman can do all the time.

if this issue is known for flowery language then idk if taking down galaxies statement can be used here.

Hal sending tremors seems like a good feat.

Golem's feat while ok, idk if this should be used for universal and above.

Hal taking out lantern batman seems fine.

Taking on the controllers seems fine.

Hal stopping a bomb that'd nuke everything in the universe looks fine as well.

Unsure about the universe ring, seems to reliant on specific context, so put me in neutral.
 
Now with Glass’ input, I believe these are the feats with 3+ staff approvals:
 
Last edited:
Firestorm808 said:

Post Crisis​

Others​

Click to expand...
This seems to be a solid Low 2-C feat for me.
Firestorm808 said:

Gods​

Click to expand...
Agree with this being Low 2-C as well.
Firestorm808 said:

Wonder Woman​

Superman​

Click to expand...
Seems straightforward enough.
Firestorm808 said:
Click to expand...
Same as before.
Firestorm808 said:

Lanterns​

Click to expand...
Agree, though it does seem to require multiple power sources to do so.
Firestorm808 said:
Rebirth
Click to expand...
Agree, though it works well as a supporting feat.
Firestorm808 said:

Superman​

Click to expand...
Solid and straightforward. I agree.
Firestorm808 said:
Click to expand...
Neutral to this, since my context on the event isn't the best.
 
Deagonx said:
Is that really how that works? I know the rule is 3 staff agrees, but surely a feat with 3 agrees and 2 disagrees is not enough right?
Click to expand...
In some cases, the 2 disagrees are treated as outvoted, unless they come from "higher positions" in terms of evaluation (though idk if the thread that was meant to formalize these standards got accepted/concluded)

However, given the controversial nature of this thread, the importance of the verse on the site and the general upgrades, me personally I would suggest a bit more evaluation from extra knowledgeable staff if possible.

Either way, no one here is on a rush.
 
Also, there’s only one feat with three agrees and two disagrees. So even if we disregarded that, that’s still seventeen accepted feats.
 
LordTracer said:
Also, there’s only one feat with three agrees and two disagrees. So even if we disregarded that, that’s still seventeen accepted feats.
Click to expand...
It was just an example. My point is: how does the rule work with staff disagreement?
 
Firestorm808 said:
Can someone recap the feats with the votes for final review?
Click to expand...
LordTracer said:
Now with Glass’ input, I believe these are the feats with 3+ staff approvals:
Click to expand...
 
Theglassman12 said:
If the staff agreed with a proposal more than disagreed, then it gets applied, simple as that.
Click to expand...
How many of the arguments against the feats have been responded to? Eficiente has the most arguments against these feats, and Ant has a few too. They should at least be addressed in full before we deem any feat accepted.
 
Or the people who agree with the feats just aren’t convinced by the arguments made by them, simple as that.
 
The fact some of the arguments boils down to “it’s a statement at best” with like little to no evidence to prove it’s a complete bullshit feat is enough for people that do agree to not be convinced. This isn’t rocket science.
 
Theglassman12 said:
The fact some of the arguments boils down to “it’s a statement at best” with like little to no evidence to prove it’s a complete bullshit feat is enough for people that do agree to not be convinced. This isn’t rocket science.
Click to expand...
I'll try to write a concrete rebuttal to their objections later.
 
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