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DC Comics - The Legendary DC Heralds Upgrade

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IdiosyncraticLawyer said:
How many of the arguments against the feats have been responded to? Eficiente has the most arguments against these feats, and Ant has a few too. They should at least be addressed in full before we deem any feat accepted.
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the op is still typing their rebuttle
 
I agree OP needs to put out the Master Rebuttal but yeah there’s more shreds then not at this point
 
Theglassman12 said:
The fact some of the arguments boils down to “it’s a statement at best” with like little to no evidence to prove it’s a complete bullshit feat is enough for people that do agree to not be convinced.
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I mean at least a few of them are "infinite power" statements which is not a great look, and there's also the tesseract thing which someone rebutted pretty well

Superman and Steel move a tesseract(Superman: The Man of Steel Vol. 1 #100, May 2000)This tesseract was described as infinite space within finite space (Superman: The Man of Steel Vol. 1 #99, April 2000), and is said to have Infinite space within (Superman Secret Files Vol. 1 #1, June 2000)
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The whole point of a tesseract and pocket-dimensions as a whole is that they don't manifest in the standard [universe] with all their might. Unless you also think that the Soul Gem from Marvel should weight trillions of tons since it also contains a pocket dimension in itself. Or Kirby from the videogames. He literally has an universe inside him but weighs as much as a balloon.
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And it's true, right? An object that contains a dimension within it -- even an infinite one --, but manifests as a finite object, is pretty consistently represented throughout various fictions as not being unmovably heavy in the regular universe. He doesn't even appear to be trying very hard to do it, so why does this have so many staff agrees? It's not like Yugi Moto's millennium puzzle is super heavy because it contains the millennium maze. Aladdin's flute in Magi contains a realm within it as well, but isn't super heavy.

Obviously I don't get to dictate right or wrong, but it does raise concern when situations that really clearly aren't tierable are getting many agrees even though they can't withstand even a cursory amount of scrutiny, with so many immediate counter-examples to the basic premise coming to mind.
 
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@Deagonx you do know that I said the infinite power statements are at best a supporting feat right? Not an actual AP feat? I never once flat out agreed to them unless they were expanded upon to have that level of AP.
 
Theglassman12 said:
@Deagonx you do know that I said the infinite power statements are at best a supporting feat right? Not an actual AP feat? I never once flat out agreed to them unless they were expanded upon to have that level of AP.
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Okay, I wasn't addressing you personally.
 
Theglassman12 said:
@Deagonx having more staff approval than rejection means those feats are accepted yes. That's how CRTs work in general.
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No it isn't. We need a staff consensus in order to pass specific feats, especially ones that are as blatantly vague or unreliable as many of these are, or have an unclear context, such as the whether or not it was the Infinite Man himself who supposedly affected time, and that have a bureaucrat combined with other staff members disagreeing with them.

Also, my explicit disagrees were not consistently added to Tracer's list, and any scaling that relies on "everybody can fight everybody" rather than explicit feats automatically gains an extremely hard no from me. This revision is almost exclusively based on incredibly unreliable feats as far as I am concerned, and I am extremely strongly disagreeing with it.
 
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Theglassman12 said:
If the staff agreed with a proposal more than disagreed, then it gets applied, simple as that.
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I think this may be too big a revision to be handled by just 5 or 6 staff agreeing./disagreeing.

I don't have much investment in DC as a verse, but I think it would probably be important to get a broader consensus and a proper summary of what exactly is being accepted onto the proposals.

Instead of just listing feats that staff members have accepted, we need to see how the profiles will look in a sandbox once all the changes have been made, then staff can examined the proposed ratings and justifications (with references ideally) in the sandbox to say for sure whether or not everything appears valid.
 
Damage3245 said:
Instead of just listing feats that staff members have accepted, we need to see how the profiles will look in a sandbox once all the changes have been made, then staff can examined the proposed ratings and justifications (with references ideally) in the sandbox to say for sure whether or not everything appears valid.
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Scaling comes after we’ve determined which feats are accepted and useable.
 
LordTracer said:
Scaling comes after we’ve determined which feats are accepted and useable.
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Fair. I just wanted to point out that it shouldn't be applied directly to the profile right after the feats are accepted/rejected. Drafting up the changes to see where things stand would be an important step.
 
I think it would be prudent to start a new thread where we specifically re-discuss the feats that currently have several staff agrees. My concern at the start was that the huge ocean of feats (most of which were unsound) would make a discussion really challenging.

I think if we start over with a clean slate and clear heads, we can start to critically assess the important feats. I don't feel that the current feat list has been properly scrutinized because there were just far too many, and if we take it from the top here, we can really get to the bottom of what's sound and what isn't.
 
Deagonx said:
I think it would be prudent to start a new thread where we specifically re-discuss the feats that currently have several staff agrees. My concern at the start was that the huge ocean of feats (most of which were unsound) would make a discussion really challenging.

I think if we start over with a clean slate and clear heads, we can start to critically assess the important feats. I don't feel that the current feat list has been properly scrutinized because there were just far too many, and if we take it from the top here, we can really get to the bottom of what's sound and what isn't.
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I think that seems like an excellent suggestion. Would you or Firestorm808 be willing to write the first post in it?

However, I am going on a rather lengthy vacation after a few days, so I would greatly appreciate if we can close this thread and you post the new one in our staff forum after I return home again. Or either of you can post it in our staff forum, but it should not be responded to until after I come back.
 
Antvasima said:
I think that seems like an excellent suggestion. Would you or Firestorm808 be willing to write the first post in it?

However, I am going on a rather lengthy vacation after a few days, so I would greatly appreciate if we can close this thread and you post the new one in our staff forum after I return home again. Or either of you can post it in our staff forum, but it should not be responded to until after I come back.
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I think it'd be fair to delay it till after you get back from your vacation. There's no rush for the revision after all and having more time for people to prepare for it would be beneficial.
 
Yes, I would much prefer to be able to relax and detach a bit during my vacation, not constantly have to worry about the informatikn for very important verses in our wiki turning extremely unreliable, so I would extremely greatly appreciate if we can lock this thread, put this project on pause, and Firestorm808, or possibly Deagonx, can post a staff forum thread with a list of the most reliable/least unreliable feats after I have returned and caught up with my work again.
 
Antvasima said:
Yes, I would much prefer to be able to relax and detach a bit during my vacation, not constantly have to worry about the informatikn for very important verses in our wiki turning extremely unreliable, so I would extremely greatly appreciate if we can lock this thread, put this project on pause, and Firestorm808, or possibly Deagonx, can post a staff forum thread with a list of the most reliable/least unreliable feats after I have returned and caught up with my work again.
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Count me in on this. I want this revision to be handled as pristinely as possible.
 
@Damage3245 By all means I'd love to see as much of the staff members comment here as possible so we can get more of a solid consensus on what passes or not, but if practically everyone gets tagged and we get 5-6 staff at best to evaluate every single thread then we gotta go with what we have and just have the knowledgeable members come to a conclusion.

@Antvasima Ant stop talking like we're pushing this CRT to be done as soon as you're unavailable. Have anyone here remotely tried to push for this to be accepted and move onto the next thread? Stop acting paranoid and let the others handle it. If you still want to discuss it then we can wait until your vacation is over.
 
That is not what I meant. I meant exactly what I said. I would get worried about this revision and it would greatly distract me during my vacation, given how enormously unreliable I consider it to be, which would not remotely be ideal for detachment and relaxation.
 
Anyway, is it fine if we close this thread then, so Firestorm808 can post a continuation thread in our staff forum with only the least unreliable feats listed after I have returned to this forum and caught up with my work?
 
Antvasima said:
Anyway, is it fine if we close this thread then, so Firestorm808 can post a continuation thread in our staff forum with only the least unreliable feats listed after I have returned to this forum and caught up with my work?
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I believe that's fine.

The feats with potential to be accepted, for reference:
 
IdiosyncraticLawyer said:
I believe that's fine.

The feats with potential to be accepted, for reference:
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Thank you for being reasonable.

However, I previously mentioned that I also disagree with scaling from Barbatos and Superboy Prime, and the Mordru scaling seems to be of a similar everybody can fight everybody fundamental narrative structure type.

The only two feats that seemed somewhat reliable to me were the one for Rebirth Superman in the Phantom Zone and Orion's Astro Force.
 
Say what? I thought that I was very clear about that we would simply put this discussion on pause while I am away by closing this thread, and afterwards @Firestorm808 can hopefully start a continuation in our staff forum that only focuses on listing the least unreliable feats that IdiosyncraticLawyer mentioned above.
 
I don’t see how a continuation thread would be anything but redundant? Maybe I’m just misunderstanding, but it seems like you want to take the feats that have already been agreed upon by the majority of the staff in this thread and make a new thread to… see if they still agree with them?
 
Deagonx said:
No? There's only one function.
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One function that can be used for a variety of different purposes depending on context.
Antvasima said:
Say what? I thought that I was very clear about that we would simply put this discussion on pause while I am away by closing this thread, and afterwards @Firestorm808 can hopefully start a continuation in our staff forum that only focuses on listing the least unreliable feats that IdiosyncraticLawyer mentioned above.
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Unreliable as in the ones that were actually discarded in this thread because of other staff rejecting them?
 
LordTracer said:
I don’t see how a continuation thread would be anything but redundant? Maybe I’m just misunderstanding, but it seems like you want to take the feats that have already been agreed upon by the majority of the staff in this thread and make a new thread to… see if they still agree with them?
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also yeah this is exactly what this sounds like lmao
 
LordTracer said:
I don’t see how a continuation thread would be anything but redundant? Maybe I’m just misunderstanding, but it seems like you want to take the feats that have already been agreed upon by the majority of the staff in this thread and make a new thread to… see if they still agree with them?
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There isn't a sufficient consensus here, and we need a proper and much more easily overviewed staff discussion given that this is an extremely controversial and significant revision.

In addition, I would much rather not have this thread help to ruin my vacation by forcing me to worry about it while I am gone...
 
LordTracer said:
I don’t see how a continuation thread would be anything but redundant? Maybe I’m just misunderstanding, but it seems like you want to take the feats that have already been agreed upon by the majority of the staff in this thread and make a new thread to… see if they still agree with them?
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Yeah. I think the ocean of feats -- especially given how much padding there was in the OP -- makes it hard to give the appropriate attention to each one. I said this at the beginning, we should've focused on the ones that were plausibly acceptable instead of posting dozens and dozens to have the staff members cull one by one, which is exhausting.

We are 12 pages in, much of the critical discussion has been lost to walls and walls of text, and the best way to circumvent the massive inertia standing between where we are now, and reaching a true consensus, is to start over with specific focus on the 17 feats that are possibly acceptable, and figure out where we disagree and why.
 
Deagonx said:
Yeah. I think the ocean of feats -- especially given how much padding there was in the OP -- makes it hard to give the appropriate attention to each one. I said this at the beginning, we should've focused on the ones that were plausibly acceptable instead of posting dozens and dozens to have the staff members cull one by one, which is exhausting.

We are 12 pages in, much of the critical discussion has been lost to walls and walls of text, and the best way to circumvent the massive inertia standing between where we are now, and reaching a true consensus, is to start over with specific focus on the 17 feats that are possibly acceptable, and figure out where we disagree and why.
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Yes, exactly.

Also, we did present extensive visual evidence for that the DC Comics heralds were usually presented as being between tier 5-C and High 4-C at their peaks, which is factually accurate. That also needs to be taken into serious consideration.
 
or we can wait for Emire to give his rebuttal after vacation : D

If we're going to come back to this thread in particular after your vacation, I don't mind locking access to the thread for a week instead of straight up closing it down and creating a new and pointless one. Especially since emirp still has to give his rebuttal to all of the arguments brought up against Tier 2 heralds.
 
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I am more inclined to agree with Deagonx, Antvasima and Eficiente here. Also, the bigger and/or more controversial is verse is, the more staff appears to need involvement. Also, while I wouldn't say a Bureaucrat or 2 who aren't super experts on a verse would override a majority of people who are more invested in the verse as Prom put it, verse specific topics I don't generally think authority should override people who are more knowledgeable on the verse. But at the end of the day, verse knowledge, number count, and staff position are all insufficient compared to facts and logic. Though facts and logic aren't always possible to grasp washout those knowledgeable on the balance of our system.

However, I still feel like most if not all the cosmic feats are vague as heck and/or we have face value evidence of some of those feats being chain reactions rather than feats. But a lot of DC heralds are consistently Tier 5 to High 4-C. I know 4-B comes from dodging the bullet on our KE standards and that we either take the "Dwarf star" statement as High 5-A or use the literal speed of light statement to go all the way to High 3-A. But some statements just say "Speed of Light" in context that they're approaching it or nearing it rather than going all out. The High 3-A punch is a literal suicide attack. And Superman's version iirc is merely stated to hit with the force of a Supernova. And while Green Lanterns can perform feats far above other DC Heralds, they generally need to be buff each other in unity in order to do so.
 
Scottycj256 said:
If we're going to come back to this thread in particular after your vacation, I don't mind locking access to the thread for a week instead of straight up closing it down and creating a new and pointless one. Especially since emirp still has to give his rebuttal to all of the arguments brought up against Tier 2 heralds.
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I will be gone until April 1, and after that it will take me a while to catch up with my work. After that has been done, @Firestorm808 , who is one of our most rational and unbiased staff members, can create a new thread in our staff forum wherein our staff can properly discuss the most reliable feats with a much more coherent overview, as this thread has been all over the place.

In fact I gave an official mandate to our staff to help me out with putting to me controversial revisions on pause until I come back via a private message a while back.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
I am more inclined to agree with Deagonx, Antvasima and Eficiente here. Also, the bigger and/or more controversial is verse is, the more staff appears to need involvement. Also, while I wouldn't say a Bureaucrat or 2 who aren't super experts on a verse would override a majority of people who are more invested in the verse as Prom put it, verse specific topics I don't generally think authority should override people who are more knowledgeable on the verse. But at the end of the day, verse knowledge, number count, and staff position are all insufficient compared to facts and logic. Though facts and logic aren't always possible to grasp washout those knowledgeable on the balance of our system.

However, I still feel like most if not all the cosmic feats are vague as heck and/or we have face value evidence of some of those feats being chain reactions rather than feats. But a lot of DC heralds are consistently Tier 5 to High 4-C. I know 4-B comes from dodging the bullet on our KE standards and that we either take the "Dwarf star" statement as High 5-A or use the literal speed of light statement to go all the way to High 3-A. But some statements just say "Speed of Light" in context that they're approaching it or nearing it rather than going all out. The High 3-A punch is a literal suicide attack. And Superman's version iirc is merely stated to hit with the force of a Supernova. And while Green Lanterns can perform feats far above other DC Heralds, they generally need to be buff each other in unity in order to do so.
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Thank you very much for helping out, Medeus. 🙏

Would you be fine with if we close this thread, and with that Firestorm808, or possibly yourself or Qawsedf234, can start a much more easily overviewed continuation in our staff forum after I have come back and caught up with my work?
 
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