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DC Comics - Superman Universal Feats Discussion (Continuation)

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Emirp sumitpo

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Continued from here: https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/

Any derailing will be deleted. You have been warned.

At Firestorm's suggestion, moving the Superman stuff here for cohesion.

3-B​

High 3-A​

Superman

Low 2-C​

Superman

2-C​

Superman

2-C, possibly 2-A​

Superman

Supporting Evidence​

Superman
The first thing that a lot of people will bring up is the idea of the Multiverse being weakened, however, this has many, many counters. First, let's go through the reasons people think this. In this statement from Infinite Crisis #3, it's stated the Multiverse was unstable.

First off, the Multiverse being unstable doesn't have to mean it literally was breaking, it's likely referring to the theme of the morality of this Multiverse being messed up, and things not being as good as they were on Earth-2. But even if it was literal, the source of the statement is from Alexander Luthor (Infinite Crisis #2), who had pretty much told them everything they believed, and he was the main villain of the story who was lying to everyone, so as a source it's hard to take it seriously.

In Infinite Crisis #1, it's stated the center of the Universe has shifted, but this really doesn't mean the Universe was damaged. It just means that a planet moved, which really isn't a big difference.

It's confirmed in Infinite Crisis #4 that this was just Superboy moving the Planet, so this wasn't the result of the Universe being damaged or anything.

Next there's the 95 million mile tear in reality, as stated in these two panels, and frankly, this doesn't prove anything.

First is that there's no evidence this affected time and not just space. Secondly is that even if this was the case, there are 5,879,000,000,000 miles in a Light Year, and the DC Universe at least has 100 Trillion Light Years. Not only that, but we have consistent size for the DC universe being Infinite in size, as the wiki has already accepted and is in this blog.

A very important thing to keep in mind is that the Universes still exist. They're still full Universes regardless and time obviously exists, and even a weakened space-time is 4D. As such, it qualifies for a Universal-sized time-space and would be At least Universal+.

Lastly, direct your attention towards this statement from Infinite Crisis #6. It's stated that the worlds "will become weaker as they're divided". This means that at this point, it's blatantly shown it wasn't weakened, and this is after the fight is over.

The next argument is that the feat is metaphorical and didn't actually happen. Let's take a look at the reasoning:

Why is this important? Well neither were in the greatest mindset at the time of the fight; Golden Age Superman is angry, bloodlusted, and focused on killing New Earth Superman meanwhile New Earth Superman is mostly focused on just surviving and keeping up with Golden Age Superman. So they aren’t in a lucid enough mindset to really analyze or know the scope of their clash I would believe.

While both Supermen are angry, there's no reason to say they're downright delusional to think some space-time shattering is happening when there isn't, especially considering how they continuously experience it.

Next we have these reasonings:

The actual fight between Kal-El and Kal-L in a physical sense only lead to the devastation of a city block.

This is true, but doesn't attack the point. The point isn't that they destroyed the Universe, but rather that they affected space-time on a Universal scale, and that it's possible their fight could've reached this level.

In both Superman Vol. 2 #226 and Action Comics #836 we see Lois Lane and Jimmy Olsen respectively during the exact time of the fight living their life and not commenting on any actual collateral damage.

This is absolutely an argument from ignorance, someone not saying something doesn't mean it's not happening. On top of this, we see a ton of reality shenanigans in these scans, so you could argue they were being affected too if you want to take this literally.

Alexander Luthor doesn’t comment on any spatio-temporal shattering at all which would be a big deal given his project at hand.

This is also an argument from ignorance. The first point also stands here, that at the point in the fight they got too, they didn't destroy the Universe or anything, just that they were affecting the Universe with their AP.

They aren’t shattering the boundaries of space and time on a universal cataclysmic scale, they are shattering each others’ localized subjective reality’s boundaries which lets them relive each other's experiences rapidly and to their own liking. This was a wholly localized event and not universal in scope.

Next there's this. The first one is that I don't get how you can change someone's subjective reality by punching them? This isn't stated or implied by anything at all, and in fact there's evidence that it beyond their own memories. We see plenty of events Superman wasn't there for, but rather characters like Batman, Hal Jordan, etc.

Lastly, the back of the comic says they were bending reality, so this seemingly confirms the events being literal.

The big point of contention is how much Superman actually contributes. However, as mentioned before, the DC Universe is far larger than ours, and likely Infinite. On top of that, as stated in Zero Hour #0, the Big Bang created time and space as well, so this is a 4D feat. If Superman was brought to contribute, he must at least be 1% responsible, making this a Universal+ feat.

Even if Supes didn't scale to it, Kyle Rayner (who he scales above, as he took out many Imperiex Probes [Adventures of Superman #594] that could take out Kyle [JLA: Our Worlds at War]) survives it, as he was blasted by it and was still conscious.

Superman also scales above some of the characters who contributed. Superman scales above Guy Garnder (as he could take on DoS Doomsday, who easily took out Guy), who overpowered the Ray in Justice League America #41. Donna Troy is a character generally sub Wonder Woman level, and Superman scales above her, as backed up by numerous sources. Him scaling to Captain Atom is debatable, but if you think Supes only scales to Atom when Atom is holding back and that Atom holds back even in dire situations, this means that this isn't the Full Power Atom who has the Universal creation feats, and it can't be applied to the version contributing to the Big Bang.

The next argument is the Spectre interfering, but the feat is explained in detail in Superman: The Doomsday Wars #2. When explaining how it's a great feat of timeline recreation (also further showing it's creating time), it attributes it to these heroes and not the Spectre. It's explained that Supes and the other heroes made the energy, Waverider turned it into temporal energy, and Damage launched it.

Spectre's contribution is likely pretty small, as his only goal is to give Damage enough so that he can't hold it anymore, and as mentioned before, he's not credited for the timeline recreation. So, this holds up as a legit Uni+ feat for the heroes involved.

The first thing I want to point out is that Superman, absolutely, 100% scales to Nebula Man. We see their fight in JLA: Classified #3, and Superman staggers him twice, also tanking his beam without any damage. The only reason anyone doesn't think this is valid is because Nebula Man says this fight was enough for now and he was just testing Superman, but this is clearly just him making excuses, especially when you look at what was said prior.

As stated in JLA: Classified #2, his goal was straight up to kill Superman, and he gasses himself up right before he fights Superman in #3, asking who will fall to him first. His intention was clearly to fight and kill Superman, and he left when he realized his attacks had no effect. Superman blatantly scales above him and Nebula Man's statement is just his ego. Also, as shown in Seven Soldiers: Zatanna #3, his head beam is seemingly a move he uses to kill, so this further supports him actually trying vs Supes.

As far as him being a mini-Universe goes, well obviously yeah. No one argues he's literally Universal in size. The point is he's a compressed Universe, we know this since it's said he's a supermatter (Seven Soldiers: Frankenstein #4), something like a Supersolid, which relates to condensed matter physics. This makes sense since he's no longer a baby Universe like as Qwewq, but now is an adult.

Lastly, this scan doesn't contradict what's stated above and could even help it, as despite being physically small and compressed, he still could've been a Universe if not for his flaw. And for one last thing to add on, even if Nebula Man was just a small, mini Universe, he would still be composed of an infinite amount of these tiny planets and stars, so even then he'd still be High Universal.

Next is the Red King, which is fairly simple. Superman scales to a character that can destroy entire universes.

The Materioptikon is not part of Red King’s abilities, but as shown, that’s virtually irrelevant due to his feats. As shown, the Red King explicitly implies his blast was intended to kill Supes, that’s fairly obvious evidence that a significant amount of power is being used. His second blast is when the League are explicitly in fragile form, like Wally and John being held together by pure will and operating on broken bones. Superman is also in deteriorating form, and is progressively losing cells to harness solar radiation, and is now boasting spikes, showing his worsened condition. None of the League members are at peak, besides Diana, who Superman scales fairly above. MMH, is also killed by fire, so not actually AP based.

Wally’s statement is about a Superman being outdone by Red King when they do things as a team, who according to Countdown #3, is when he's prevented from going all out due to his teammates existence. Supes himself verbatim states that he can hold a merged Red King as long as he needs to. Red King did defeat the League, but it’s through explicit planning over millions of lifetimes with thousands of plans and counter measures. This can also explain why the League is so amazed by him, as he's ready for anything to go up against and basically can't be taken off-guard. There can also be an argument made for Supes scaling to Destiny, who’s implied to be superior to the Red King.

While some question Red King's power in battle, he's pretty blatantly capable of destroying Universes, and I'll add on a debunk to this specifically.

So it had some limited dimensional manipulation but its full extent is unknown. Point is he doesn't scale to breaking probabilities because that is in a context not seen at the moment. That is only when he is in the Materioptikon and using that stone again, not his own power, to destroy obsolete possibilities and using the realm within it as Batman describes in #36 as a "hub world."
The hub world point doesn't make much sense, since it just means that it's a central area that connects to many others, not that it's the only place he can destroy Universes. Suggesting it's space-time hax is also silly, since as far as we see it's just a power beam.

The first thing to cover is the reasoning people say it's not real. First off, Superman suspects he's hallucinating, but this is just his guess. Death seemingly confirms it is, but then compares regular life to hallucinations too, meaning he's essentially saying everything Superman thinks is real is fake, which obviously isn't true. Superman again asks if it's real, though again, this is still him not being sure.

Superman asks Death if it was all a dream, and Death responds that he can choose to believe it if it comforts him, but really it was on planes of reality where mind and matter intersect. Superman says it was a dream, but this is just him choosing to believe it was. And to further clarify what death is describing, he's talking about a place where Superman's psychological demons take physical form, as he says "where which hides in our dreams takes form", meaning what's happening here was physical. On top of this, in Action Comics #1030, we see Lois referencing it as if it did indeed happen.

As for the destruction of the Universe being heat death, this is never implied at all. All we know is it's a black hole that collapsed the Universe, so this comes from nowhere. Also, even if it was a Universal amount of entropy, that's still a Universal durability feat, the same way surviving a fire that can burn down Universes would be Universal and not just heat resistance.

From Death's description, it's very likely a physical feat, though I can see reason to doubt this, so at the very least this should be a strong supporting feat for Low 2-C. As for the Heat Death argument, it's really baseless and mostly irrelevant.

Next is Time Trapper. People often say that Trapper was fighting Conner Kent as Superboy Prime in the past, which was shown altering the future. However, this isn’t Conner’s punches literally affecting Trapper through time, just the effects of the fight, such as a wound inflicted still showing. A physical attack landed possibly trillions of years prior won’t have any profound effect on the current state of Trapper. The heat vision is specifically a wound inflicted that never healed.

Even before the reveal and the eventual wounds he suffered, Superman could still survive bloodlusted attacks from Trapper, blitz him and stagger him. The power of Trapper is contentious, as there’s been multiple versions of him according to DC Encyclopedia: New Edition, possible embodying the same being, or possibly hosts more like Spectre. However, this Trapper is at least regarded as a sentient timeline, and would scale off Superboy-Prime.

Side note: Superboy being able to wound Prime also boosts the argument for Superman as well. A lot of people debate Prime’s state, but he was rejuvenated with solar radiation just before encountering Conner. Prime’s rage is debatable and hard to quantify, but before the battle he’s forced to relive the events of Infinite Crisis reversed, with him portrayed as a D list villain, and characters like Superman and Superboy portrayed as heroes. Given that Prime is not only going through the same process as Infinite Crisis, but now attacks against his own status, it’s more logical to say his rage wouldn’t be drastically altered. For context, Alexander Luthor says this in a comic where Prime is back on his home world, with his family and his girlfriend, and is eventually redeemed, something LO3W Prime is explicitly unable to do.

Also for the lack of the suit Prime usually wears, the suit just feeds Prime sunlight, something his cells could already do regardless. He also has arguably his toughest fight without the suit against Sodam Yat as well.

Next, the Phantom Zone. There’s three main points to tackle.

  1. Superman being physically linked to the Phantom Zone
  2. Superman being dimensionally amped
  3. Superman being unaware of the structure shaking
The first one is fairly simple. It comes from Superman #215, where Clark states that Zod and himself are connected physically to the world Zod was banished into, being the Phantom Zone. However, this is not talking about the Phantom Zone. It’s talking about Metropia, a world born from Jor Els technology created off a question Lois presented. This is the world Superman and Zod are fighting in, as mentioned multiple times.

Now another question may come. Why did Superman say Zod was banished here? Simple. Metropia is made from the clay of the Phantom Zone as stated in Superman #214. Zod was in the Phantom Zone for such a long period, he became engrained in its very fabric and nature, causing him to appear in this world created from it. Essentially, the statement has nothing to do with the Phantom Zone being connected to Superman’s nature and physical body. It’s referring to Metropia, a world made from Superman and Lois’s dialogue made from the clay of the Phantom Zone. The only reason Supes is connected to it is because he specifically made it.

He molded the Phantom Zone, or at least a segment of it, into a paradise area to save people. When Zod and him fought they ended up destroying this area, but it was not because of collateral damage on their part. It's what DDM was asking about, since in a previous thread someone was attempting to use the fight to upgrade Superman.
This is kinda weird, because there’s literally zero mention of him warping or remaking the Phantom Zone. It’s explicitly stated many times it’s a world created, not one simply remade. Again, this is all exclusive to the arc and not a general overview of the Phantom Zone. And for the record, the two Zods fighting are not the same, so being part of the clay doesn’t mean much for Rebirth Zod.

The next one is Supes being in a higher dimension. The DC Map states that the Phantom Zone is within the Godsphere, which characters must be dimensionally amped to reside in. However, this doesn’t really change the nature of the Phantom Zone, just its dimensionality. If a higher dimensional being can threaten a higher dimensional Universe, it would still scale to a normal being threatening a normal Universe.

Lastly, people often point out that Superman was unaware that the Phantom Zone could hold a planet, making him not credible on such a statement. Firstly, this doesn’t have much relevance. While he is previously unaware, he has various comics afterwards where he’s living and fighting in it. From there, his credibility can be bolstered due to direct exposure to the capacities of the Phantom Zone. As shown in WITS, Superman is able to tell that the entire Universe and Creation is in its dying stages. This shows how far Superman’s awareness can actually span. We also know stuff like Superman being able to see infinite distances and whatnot, so his awareness spanning this far once within the Phantom Zone is quite plausible. Lastly, it’s sort of a very odd thing to write if it weren’t true. It sorta goes against the intent of a statement that narratively isn’t contingent off being false or exaggerated or ignorant being false. It’s also odd because Superman clearly now knows it’s much larger than Earth, so trying to argue it’s a planetary feat off intent is weird.

If Superman was capable of destroying a dimension.... we would have seen him at one point destroy a dimension. Inner thoughts during an arc dealing with his extreme anger in regards to someone murdering his entire race that leads to him freaking out is not solid evidence that he can just nuke part of the God Sphere.
Another side point. The refutation that Superman means to destroy the Phantom Zone with gear is very odd. Separate interpretations are completely fine when they have a basis, but this one has pretty much nothing to it. Superman refers to having the power to do it, and the entire context is around Superman’s moral system and his ability to control his power even with tests and tough times. To say it means gear or even hyperbole with no real basis is sort of disingenuous, especially given the context. Another thing noted is he would have destroyed one, which completely misses the point of not only heroes and Superman, but the scan itself. Supes is talking about on normal days he can control and restrain his morals. As a hero, it’s clearly not in character to go around nuking dimensions.

This one is a really simple debunk. Basically, DC writer J.M. DeMatteis says Superman destroying the Universe is a stretch. Is this conclusive evidence to Kal not being Universal? Not quite.

First thing to cover is alternate interpretations. The first thing is that Superman destroying the Universe will immediately sound like a stretch to anyone familiar with character, since that's not at all something he would do. As well as this, destroying the Universe generally involves having to defeat anyone who'd try to stop him, which is a tall task in a franchise with such powerful characters. As well as this, even if Superman isn't capable of destroying the Universe, that could be due to his range, and he could still have Universal AP.

As well as this, when asked if Superman could destroy the Universe-sized Phantom Zone (as clarified by the questioner), he said he had no clue. This brings us to an important point, DeMatteis' twitter statements are completely unusable for scaling. According to him, anyone's interpretation of the comic is as important as his own. He's also explained that these vs battle questions aren't up his alley, and aren't things he actively thinks about. This carries on to other things, such as how abilities work and if certain comics are dreams.
 
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Missed the supporting stuff
The energy of the cosmos isn't a AP statement
SBP was nerfed multiple times through this fight. Red Sun Radiation, power draining fire, draining of energy, Kryptonite, and Red Sun radiation. In that fight he only had one moment to regain strength and I don't think it means much.

Although upon saying that he did fight a dude with literally every Green Lantern ring in this fight and Superboy still drew blood, so the scaling is probably legitmate.
While I think Monarch scaling can work, I wouldn't use Extant boosting as a showing.
 
SBP was nerfed multiple times through this fight. Red Sun Radiation, power draining fire, draining of energy, Kryptonite, and Red Sun radiation. In that fight he only had one moment to regain strength and I don't think it means much.

Although upon saying that he did fight a dude with literally every Green Lantern ring in this fight and Superboy still drew blood, so the scaling is probably legitmate.
Superboy was also on par with him during infinite crisis.
Red Sun Radiation, power draining fire, draining of energy, Kryptonite, and Red Sun radiation.
*No Red Sun radiation during this book
*I don't see where it's stated to be draining SBP powers
*Draining of energy is legit
*Kryptonite didn't affect him, he was joking.
* No Red Sun radiation in this book.
 
No Red Sun radiation during this book
Sunboy comes later on and blasts him with Red Sunlight.
Kryptonite didn't affect him, he was joking
He wasn't. He turned green and was screaming in pain.

I don't see where it's stated to be draining SBP powers
The fire is mentioned as being special and draining him in the page before.

Superboy was also on par with him during infinite crisis.
Superboy fought him after he had run through a gauntlet and was nerfed unless I'm misremembering the order of things.
 
He wasn't. He turned green and was screaming in pain.
I forgot but kryptonite isn't meant to hurt him, anyways the kryptonite radiation was later used to amp him.
Sunboy comes later on and blasts him with Red Sunlight.
Just checked and nothing about red sunlight, if indeed he was affected by red sunlight radiation he would have been depowered which he wasn't and seems fine infact.
The fire is mentioned as being special and draining him in the page before.
I don't see it stated anywhere or do you have scans?
Superboy fought him after he had run through a gauntlet and was nerfed unless I'm misremembering the order of things.
After the Kryptonite radiation he got amped when all the kryptonite radiation in him turn to yellow sunlight, so he was fine when he fought superboy perphaps even better.
 
Same as Hellbeast. Mark me down for agree, I already glossed over this stuff in the previous thread but of course, some other guy had to split it up for no good reason.
 
Same as Hellbeast. Mark me down for agree, I already glossed over this stuff in the previous thread but of course, some other guy had to split it up for no good reason.
Come on, man. No need to get passive-aggressive. You have to agree somewhat that splitting off these chunks makes them more manageable to analyze and discuss than doing everything all at once.
 
Come on, man. No need to get passive-aggressive. You have to agree somewhat that splitting off these chunks makes them more manageable to analyze and discuss than doing everything all at once.
I disagree, the revisions were already going to be massive, but splitting them like this spreads out our workforce far, wide and thin, and going back-and-forth between the two threads will be nothing more than a royal pain in the ass. Even you should know this better than me.
 
I disagree, the revisions were already going to be massive, but splitting them like this spreads out our workforce far, wide and thin, and going back-and-forth between the two threads will be nothing more than a royal pain in the ass. Even you should know this better than me.
There were 90+ statements/scans across different character sets to go over. To my experience, breaking this up at least a little would be preferred. People could better focus on items without getting distracted by a different topic discussion going on.
 
There were 90+ statements/scans across different character sets to go over. To my experience, breaking this up at least a little would be preferred. People could better focus on items without getting distracted by a different topic discussion going on.
I've seen CRTs with a lot more scans and statements than this. Hardly anything new.
 
and going back-and-forth between the two threads will be nothing more than a royal pain in the ass.
I Agree with this though it's easier analyse, the threads are beginning to confuse me since it's 3 different threads but imma be honest the first thread alone was going well.
 
forgot but kryptonite isn't meant to hurt him,
If you read the story you'll see that it actually harmed him and wasn't standard Kryptonite.

Just checked and nothing about red sunlight, if indeed he was affected by red sunlight radiation he would have been depowered which he wasn't and seems fine infact
I have no idea how you missed the line where the Legion says "Sunboy will shot him with Red Sunlight" and when Sunboy comes in later he blasts Superboy and injures him.

Red Sunlight isn't an off switch for powers, SBP was rammed through a Red star and still had a minor strength reserve left over. But he was hit by it.

After the Kryptonite radiation he got amped
I already talked about this.

You have to agree somewhat that splitting off these chunks makes them more manageable to analyze and discuss than doing everything all at once.
Not really. Verse wide revisions like these are better handled I on thread, especially when cross scaling them to each other in my view.
 
I agree with Vasco about SBP not being weakened. Everything draining him was before he was rejuvenated with Yellow Solar Radiation, and afterwards he wasn't harmed until Connor drew blood. (Edit: Nvmd I think I missed Sunboy the second time. So sure I'm still fine with keeping it as a supporting feat.) Blackstarr is admittedly quite vague, so if we just want to see that as control over certain energy sources or w/e, I don't really mind. When it comes to Hank Hall Monarch, I definitely think characters should scale to him, but his feats are kinda vague and hard to tier.

One thing I see in-discussion is Captain Atom saying he'd his full power to take down a Superman level opponent, and tbh I don't see what needs to be in-discussion about it. While Atom obviously doesn't go around using his full power and is almost always difficult to scale to, in this instance, he's directly talking about his using full power.
 
If you read the story you'll see that it actually harmed him and wasn't standard Kryptonite.
I don't know what kind of kryptonite that was that harmed him cause both SBP and some heroes were shocked he got affected but few seconds/minutes later the kryptonite radiation from that kryptonite was used to amp him to get even stronger, the scan is above.
I have no idea how you missed the line where the Legion says "Sunboy will shot him with Red Sunlight" and when Sunboy comes in later he blasts Superboy and injures him.

Red Sunlight isn't an off switch for powers, SBP was rammed through a Red star and still had a minor strength reserve left over. But he was hit by it.
I read it again and I didn't see can you send the scan or atleast tell me the page number, no mention SBP was hit with red sunlight radiation though he was hit by Sunboy he got up immediately and soloed him and tye remaining heroes with a clap. Also when he blast SBP his attack, he screamed in pain but wasn't damage shown in the next page and was even smiling (probably cause the system said his regeneration was complete).

Red sunlight nullifies kryptonians abilities like Kryptonite perphaps at times even greater in certain books, yes SBP was rammed through a Red sun that same moment him and other 2 supermen were fighting like normal humans cause their powers were sapped away. Infact the Red Sun affected him greater than the kryptonite besides you can't compare that to what sun boy did cause SBP was alright the next page.
Also I don't see were it's stated he hit SBP with Red sunlight radiation and even if he did SBP was back to full power immediately in the next page.
Red Sunlight makes them lose their powers momentarily or makes them to weak to even do anything but SBP was fine after even had extra yellow sun radiation from the kryptonite radiation.
I already talked about this.
Dosen't change the got amped by the kryptonite radiation when it got transformed into Yellow energy for him.
Not really. Verse wide revisions like these are better handled I on thread, especially when cross scaling them to each other in my view.
I guess the threads shouldn't have been split in the first place.
 
don't know what kind of kryptonite that was that harmed him
It doesn't matter because it harmed him.

SBP with Red sunlight radiation
I don't know how you missed it. To add he's Sunboy, the person with the powers to use Sun based fire and light attacks. Why wouldn't he use red sun radiation when he knows that's a weakness and they mention it in the story itself?
kryptonite radiation when it got transformed into Yellow energy for him.
I've already addressed this.
 
It doesn't matter because it harmed him.
Later used to amp him the same page.
I read from Issue #4to#5 didn't check previous issues. Besides he got amped in later issues so he wasn't depowered against Superboy.
I don't know how you missed it. To add he's Sunboy, the person with the powers to use Sun based fire and light attacks. Why wouldn't he use red sun radiation when he knows that's a weakness and they mention it in the story itself?
LOTW #3: Sunboy flame did little to nothing on SBP power, infact he still had enough power to fly and freeze Sunboy, So he wasn't really weakened at all.
LOTW #4: SBP was amped with yellow Sunlight, so it's safe to say he wasn't weakened in his battle against Superboy.

Sunboy red sunlight radiation did little to nothing on SBP powers and SBP later got amped afterwards I've proved my point.
I've already addressed this.
I don't understand your argument against the fact the kryptonite radiation was transformed into Yellow Sunlight to amp him in #4.
 
I disagree, the revisions were already going to be massive, but splitting them like this spreads out our workforce far, wide and thin, and going back-and-forth between the two threads will be nothing more than a royal pain in the ass. Even you should know this better than me.
Huge agree. Splitting the one thread into three, with all going on simultaneously, was complete unnecessary and just makes things more difficult.
 
Since majority staff are in agreement except one shouldn't it be done in a single thread again?
 
SBP: THAT FIRE HURTS = Uneffect I guess
LOTW #4: SBP was amped with yellow Sunlight, so it's safe to say he wasn't weakened in his battle against Superboy.
He was then blasted with Red Sunlight before he fought Superboy.

But I already addressed that it shouldn't matter
Although upon saying that he did fight a dude with literally every Green Lantern ring in this fight and Superboy still drew blood, so the scaling is probably legitmate.
I don't know why you're saying things that my first post already acknowledges. Even with all the debuffs he got hit with, he would still be at a good portion of his power.
I don't understand your argument against the fact the kryptonite radiation
Although upon saying that he did fight a dude with literally every Green Lantern ring in this fight and Superboy still drew blood, so the scaling is probably legitmate.
 
SBP: THAT FIRE HURTS = Uneffect I guess
He was meant to be depowered by it like you claimed which he wasn't and had LITTLE to NO EFFECT on him.
He was then blasted with Red Sunlight before he fought Superboy.

But I already addressed that it shouldn't matter
Immediately after the Sunboy attack, it's stated his regeneration was complete in the same panel, which proves my point on Sunboy's attack having little to no effect on him(I'm referring to depowering not being hurt). We see in the next page SBP defeated them with a clap so yeah he was okay and didn't even mention anything about being weakened or drained.

Oh my apologies I thought you said Superboy can't scale🙏.

EDIT: I think I should delete this.
 
Immediately after the Sunboy attack, it's stated his regeneration was complete in the same panel
That's them regenerating Superboy, not Superboy Prime. Its why after this Superboy shows back up and why it mentions Human/Kryptonian regeneration as well.
We see in the next page SBP defeated them with a clap so yeah he was okay and didn't even mention anything about being weakened or drained.
SBP being hit by Red Sun radiation can weaken him without depowering him. He's well known for being stupidly tanky and has insane endurance.
 
That's them regenerating Superboy, not Superboy Prime. Its why after this Superboy shows back up and why it mentions Human/Kryptonian regeneration as well.
Makes sense, thought it was referring to him all this while.
SBP being hit by Red Sun radiation can weaken him without depowering him. He's well known for being stupidly tanky and has insane endurance.
When he got hit and weakened in infinite crisis and it showed has he was no different from a human at that point perphaps still stronger than most same with the Supermen, but Sunboy flames both encounters don't seem to have that juice to depower/weaken him like that from an actual Red sunlight radiation, 1st encounter at point blank he could still overpower, fly and freeze him and second time also he got back up and defeated them with a clap. Also if his weakened he'd atleast give a mention of it like superman always did or like in infinite crisis after the moved through the Red Sun.

Anyways I'd drop this topic now, I've derailed enough.
 
Current Evaluation

Post-Crisis​

Pending

Rebirth​

 
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I don't really get the Phantom Zone thing, if we're told via narration the Phantom Zone is shaking why are we trying to argue it would refer to a specific portion? If we hear someone shake the universe we don't try to reach to "It'd be X amount", we simply refer to the current calcs on shaking the Universe.
 
Yeah, it clearly refers to it as just the Phantom Zone. It's weird to assume that it's only just a specific portion, when the story never states something like that.
 
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