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DC Comics - The Legendary DC Heralds Upgrade

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Emirp sumitpo said:
I mean we're still in the middle of discussing in those threads, unless we wanna just carry over what was in there into here.
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If we do so, the feat-by-feat evaluation posts all need to be linked to, and it would likely turn even more confusing to keep track of than currently, so although I think that it would have been better if we had kept this discussion to a single thread to start with, at this point we would likely turn everything into an incomprehensible mess if we try to merge them back together again.
 
Deagonx said:
Infinite power shouldn't grant High 3-A, or really any tier, because it's an extremely vague phrase that is subject to a lot of really obvious complications, and is so often just hyperbole.
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On its own, no, infinite power statements wouldn’t grant High 3-A. But when there’s High 3-A feats, infinite power statements can work as supporting evidence.
 
Deagonx said:
Infinite power shouldn't grant High 3-A, or really any tier, because it's an extremely vague phrase that is subject to a lot of really obvious complications, and is so often just hyperbole.
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I guess you'd have to make a thread on that.
Deagonx said:
Sure, but there's a big difference between specific and distinct statements of power like "can destroy a universe" and something like "limitless power" or "infinite power."

There are many many examples of things that are said to have infinite/limitless/unlimited power which are not universal.
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Infinite power is accepted as High 3-A that's all I know if you find it vague, you can make a staff thread though also "i said it depends on the character who mentions infinite power like the statement page said" so who did? Is the character really knowledgeable?
 
Antvasima said:
Well, maybe some of our staff members are willing to update the first post of this thread with "(Rejected)" or strikethroughs for all of the feats that have been rejected by comprehensive evaluations by our staff members in the other two connected threads?
Click to expand...
Antvasima said:
If we do so, the feat-by-feat evaluation posts all need to be linked to, and it would likely turn even more confusing to keep track of than currently, so although I think that it would have been better if we had kept this discussion to a single thread to start with, at this point we would likely turn everything into an incomprehensible mess if we try to merge them back together again.
Click to expand...
Agreed.
 
Some examples of non Tier-3 infinite power.


True Dark Genie, directly says "the infinite power given to me," 4-C

Princess Kaguya (Inuyasha), wields a robe which is a source of "infinite power" but is low 7-B.

Light Force, directly called a source of infinite powwer, 6-B

Pariah Dark, unlimited power, 4-A

Galaxia, unlimited power, 4-A

I'm just saying, words like "infinite, limitless, unlimited, endless" and others are ripe for hyperbole, and should be regarded with a great degree of scrutiny even beyond normal statements which claim specific feats (like the ability to create a universe, et cetera.) I strongly disagree with using phrases like that -- independent of clear and reliable feats or more specific statements -- to tier someone so highly.

Adem_Warlock69 said:
Firestorm might also have some High 3-A feats like fending off perfect shadowclones of The Orishas, who are comparable to Olorun, a sentient Universe in "Firestorm, The Nuclear Man #96"
Click to expand...
Adem_Warlock69 said:
There's also him one-shotting a shadowclone of Captain Atom who created "This reality using his powers" (Referring to the Captain Atom universe creation feat)
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He says "Blast! My shadowform, and I don't know if it's still leeching power from me" which seems to suggest that shadowclones are not perfect copies of their subjects or that they have the full power of the person they are copying.

Vasco said:
Infinite power is accepted as High 3-A
Click to expand...
No it isn't. The tiering system page doesn't actually say that. It says if infinite power can be demonstrated by affecting infinite mass, for example.
 
Deagonx said:
He says "Blast! My shadowform, and I don't know if it's still leeching power from me" which seems to suggest that shadowclones are not perfect copies of their subjects or that they have the full power of the person they are copying.
Click to expand...
That's true, all the shadow clones have half the power of the originals, but that shouldn't change much since Firestorm's power was also halved
The Shadow Captain Atom also still created his own universe, which is Low 2-C either way
 
So, in Shadowpact 21-22, the characters end up in Myrra. Myrra is protected by a magical forcefield to prevent anyone teleporting there. The dark magic idea of Unbound, however, is creating a beam that is strong enough to slowly overpower that forcefield and tear through the very fabric on the universe
Nightmaster then survives stepping into that beam. Could that work?
 
LordTracer said:
And there are clear High 3-A feats listed in the OP, it’s not just infinite power statements.
Click to expand...
Okay, but that's sort of secondary to my point, right? If the High 3-A feats are valid, then the infinite power statements are mostly tertiary. So the focus should be on the validity of the alleged feats, not the infinite power statements.
 
Deagonx said:
Some examples of non Tier-3 infinite power.

True Dark Genie, directly says "the infinite power given to me," 4-C

Princess Kaguya (Inuyasha), wields a robe which is a source of "infinite power" but is low 7-B.

Light Force, directly called a source of infinite powwer, 6-B

Pariah Dark, unlimited power, 4-A

Galaxia, unlimited power, 4-A

I'm just saying, words like "infinite, limitless, unlimited, endless" and others are ripe for hyperbole, and should be regarded with a great degree of scrutiny even beyond normal statements which claim specific feats (like the ability to create a universe, et cetera.) I strongly disagree with using phrases like that -- independent of clear and reliable feats or more specific statements -- to tier someone so highly.


No it isn't. The tiering system page doesn't actually say that. It says if infinite power can be demonstrated by affecting infinite mass, for example.
Click to expand...
I agree about that empty claims are usually considered cheap by our standards, and that we need more reliable evidence than that to go by.
 
Deagonx said:
Okay, but that's sort of secondary to my point, right? If the High 3-A feats are valid, then the infinite power statements are mostly tertiary. So the focus should be on the validity of the alleged feats, not the infinite power statements.
Click to expand...
I mean, the majority of the other High 3-A feats were already accepted and the infinite power statements are mainly supporting evidence.
 
LordTracer said:
I mean, the majority of the other High 3-A feats were already accepted and the infinite power statements are mainly supporting evidence.
Click to expand...
Well I can't speak for all the feats in this thread, but going over the Superman thread I felt as though many of the feats being proposed were not well supported or relied upon very generous interpretations of vague things. I will go over the Green Lantern stuff later to see if it's the same situation.
 
Deagonx said:
Well I can't speak for all the feats in this thread, but going over the Superman thread I felt as though many of the feats being proposed were not well supported or relied upon very generous interpretations of vague things. I will go over the Green Lantern stuff later to see if it's the same situation.
Click to expand...
Yes, I agree. As I have repeatedly said, we should only scale from the most reliable gems among these feats.
 
Antvasima said:
Just a reminder that this kind of revision is still not about sweepingly putting agreement stamps on everything. I agree with the basic premise, but we still need to significantly sift down all of the listed feats in all three threads to just the most reliable ones.
Click to expand...
Well I think so🗿
 
Antvasima said:
Just a reminder that this kind of revision is still not about sweepingly putting agreement stamps on everything. I agree with the basic premise, but we still need to significantly sift down all of the listed feats in all three threads to just the most reliable ones.
Click to expand...
Some of us probably have the same opinion as you do Ant ie myself. I also agree with the basic premise of this thread however I also disagree with some of the proposed feats ie the 4D Aztek Explosion, Superman's fight with Nebula Man, and a few others and you are correct we need to go over which feats are deemed reliable or not. Once we are done with this thread and we move on to scaling, I will give my reasoning as to why I agree with tier 2 Superman, specifically 2-C to 2-A.
 
PapiSavitar5025 said:
I feel like even his avatars often have high-showings, it's just we kept him at 4-B all these years to justify why Superman is able to fight -- and in most cases -- outright beat him.
Click to expand...
also, it feels weird since iirc new gods are immune to crisis events so why would he shift the avatars power from 2c to 2A down to 4B, also last i checked golden age directly scales to pre crisis
 
Lord_Farquaad69420 said:
also, it feels weird since iirc new gods are immune to crisis events so why would he shift the avatars power from 2c to 2A down to 4B, also last i checked golden age directly scales to pre crisis
Click to expand...
Pre Crisis scales to Golden Age, and Golden Age scales to Post-Crisis.

I'm also not sure where this 'Golden Age Superman gets weaker' thing comes from, but I find it hard to believe he got infinitely weaker. Yeah, he might not be on-par with Pre-Criss Supes anymore, but he should still be within that 2-C or 2-A range.
 
This one's definitely meaningless, a finite object with infinite things inside wouldn't have the properties of what it has inside outside. It's outright wrong, not 〰️.
Having a power source=/=being able to attack with his full power per blow unless proven, otherwise 1 attack would dry the Tesseract from all that infinite energy I assume it has, and it is an assumption, the thing having infinite space =/= it having infinite energy for CB to take, necessarily.
It wasn't called "Infinite" but "unregion of infinitely compressed space" by a character that talks odd. Idk what "unregion" means, I think she means region, as in the PZ being limited, but more significantly she is clearly being hyperbolic on how compressed the PZ is in size, and calling a universe infinite is a common hyperbole, so the feat would only be shaking a universe at best.

The shaking also likely refers to the earthquakes in the distance, which would intuitively be the area around rather than every area of the anti-universe that could have earthquakes. Also also, it wasn't due to a punch, the punch happened, then more fighting was happening, and among it the fear happened. It was by the fight in general rather than that 1 punch seen the page before.

1) This is clearly poetic. 2) Being a conduit to that isn't the same as being it anyway. 3) Those rings clearly have limits to what they can do, even when not used in a way that's shooting their regular AP. 4) Why do you keep starting those words with caps when the comic doesn't? Is it just to make it look more notable when the comic doesn't give it that importance?

The living planet is a never-ending resource of power due to being self-sustained, as it is abundantly more likely to take from this.

This is meaningless due to their size contained in a smaller space. Even then, it would be a Creation feat.
This is just a casual conversation, it can't possibly be used.
Power with relation of the universe=/=High 3-A.
I don't know if it's consistent, but I wouldn't think those emotional beings have a consistent, static stat for their power. Didn't Parallax Hal vary in power for example?
Where do I start? "The power inside you" likely refers to the Speed Force. He's talking about Flash being powerful in a way he doesn't understand and know yet, this is pure potential, not standard. He also refers to the way he defies physics, so in context this infinite and incalculable power would have nothing to do with High 3-A as even moving at lightspeed yields infinite energy, and do something incalculable via ignoring physics can be anything. The fact that he doesn't know if Supes is above him shows uncertainty, not scaling.

I will go over the rest later.
 
Eficiente said:
I don't know if it's consistent, but I wouldn't think those emotional beings have a consistent, static stat for their power. Didn't Parallax Hal vary in power for example?
Click to expand...
I'll just reply for this for now, but not really, his varying power level came from the fact that he would gain multiple power ups but also lose said power later on.

And if anything, it's more that hosts tend to be the one that vary in power rather than the entities itselves.
 
Da_Lunge_Fish said:
What about the feat Captain Atom has right now on his profile? Mary Marvel nearly beat him to death
Click to expand...
Basically, cap atom was far from at peak. He usually don't operate at his tier 2 power levels, Especially around that era because of emoism. The only one who legitimately scales to his tier 2 stuff is already tiered, i.e. SPB. Also, there was this monitor who tanked the attack with a forcefield. That might be worth considering tho for scaling.

TimeTrapperFanBoy said:
Some of us probably have the same opinion as you do Ant ie myself. I also agree with the basic premise of this thread however I also disagree with some of the proposed feats ie the 4D Aztek Explosion, Superman's fight with Nebula Man, and a few others and you are correct we need to go over which feats are deemed reliable or not. Once we are done with this thread and we move on to scaling, I will give my reasoning as to why I agree with tier 2 Superman, specifically 2-C to 2-A.
Click to expand...
We are covering scaling in this thread, only after we're done evaluating feats. Though lemme guess, are you scaling him to Pre-Crisis?
 
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Eficiente said:
Where do I start? "The power inside you" likely refers to the Speed Force. He's talking about Flash being powerful in a way he doesn't understand and know yet, this is pure potential, not standard. He also refers to the way he defies physics, so in context this infinite and incalculable power would have nothing to do with High 3-A as even moving at lightspeed yields infinite energy, and do something incalculable via ignoring physics can be anything. The fact that he doesn't know if Supes is above him shows uncertainty, not scaling.
Click to expand...
Will reply this later.
 


Current/Former Staff Agrees/Disagrees Vote Tally for Specific Feats

Revised 1/27/23​

The following Staff have either given blanket agrees or limited verifications: @LordTracer (Tier 2, minus the Kyle Rayner/Anarky and Starheart stuff.)@KLOL506 @Planck69 @Maverick_Zero_X, @Qawsedf234 (Green Lantern - High 3A, Tier 2, Flash Tier 2, WW Tier 2, New Gods Tier 2), @Matthew_Schroeder (Superman Tier 2)

Please notify us if you wish to revise or add any feat verifications below.

I added "Somewhat" for replies that use a non-commital "I guess" with a link to the original post.

I have updated some of my verifications.

Post Crisis​

Others​

Gods​

Qawsedf234: Agree - The ratings are fine, but remember that they're in the 4th world in their true form. Such a scale is meaningless for cross-scaling. | https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5367187

Wonder Woman​

Superman​

Lanterns​

Rebirth​

Flash​

Qawsedf234: Somewhat Agree | https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5367187

Superman​

Lanterns​

 
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Eficiente said:
<snip>
Click to expand...
Fully agree with these assessments and this effectively underscores my overall impression of the post. There are a lot of nothing-burgers in the OP, and each one undermines the credibility of the CRT. Adding all of these super vague or unverifiable statements makes the discussion a huge slog. Preferably it should've been formatted to emphasize the most clear and strong pieces of evidence so that a more manageable debate could take place.
 
Firestorm808 said:


Current/Former Staff Agrees/Disagrees Vote Tally for Specific Feats​

The following Staff have either given blanket agrees or limited verifications: @KLOL506 @Planck69 @Maverick_Zero_X, @Qawsedf234 (Green Lantern - High 3A, Tier 2, Flash Tier 2, WW Tier 2, New Gods Tier 2), @Matthew_Schroeder (Superman Tier 2)

Please notify us if you wish to revise or add any feat verifications below.

I added "Somewhat" for replies that use a non-commital "I guess" with a link to the original post.

I have updated some of my verifications.

Post Crisis​

Others​

Gods​

Qawsedf234: Agree - The ratings are fine, but remember that they're in the 4th world in their true form. Such a scale is meaningless for cross-scaling. | https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5367187

Wonder Woman​

Superman​

Lanterns​

Rebirth​

Flash​

Qawsedf234: Somewhat Agree | https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5367187

Superman​

Lanterns​

Click to expand...
Thank you very much for helping out. I personally trust the thorough evaluations of Qawsedf234, Firestorm808, Eficiente, and Deagonx, so it seems like a lot of feats in the opening post of this thread should get strikethroughs or rejected stamps at this point, so we can continue to discuss the more reliable ones.
 
Deagonx said:
Fully agree with these assessments and this effectively underscores my overall impression of the post. There are a lot of nothing-burgers in the OP, and each one undermines the credibility of the CRT. Adding all of these super vague or unverifiable statements makes the discussion a huge slog. Preferably it should've been formatted to emphasize the most clear and strong pieces of evidence so that a more manageable debate could take place.
Click to expand...
Agreed. See my last preceding post above.
 
Eficiente said:
Having a power source=/=being able to attack with his full power per blow unless proven, otherwise 1 attack would dry the Tesseract from all that infinite energy I assume it has, and it is an assumption, the thing having infinite space =/= it having infinite energy for CB to take, necessarily.
Click to expand...
Though I'm not also convinced but I'd remind you half of infinity is still infinity, he dosen't need to empty his power source for 1 attack if it's infinite plus that goes against the infinite energy also if it can go empty, CB said he can take control of the energy and use it how he likes.
I'm also iffy on this.


Eficiente said:
It wasn't called "Infinite" but "unregion of infinitely compressed space" by a character that talks odd. Idk what "unregion" means, I think she means region, as in the PZ being limited, but more significantly she is clearly being hyperbolic on how compressed the PZ is in size, and calling a universe infinite is a common hyperbole, so the feat would only be shaking a universe at best.

The shaking also likely refers to the earthquakes in the distance, which would intuitively be the area around rather than every area of the anti-universe that could have earthquakes. Also also, it wasn't due to a punch, the punch happened, then more fighting was happening, and among it the fear happened. It was by the fight in general rather than that 1 punch seen the page before.
Click to expand...
Isn't a Phantom Zone/Underworld a realm in the sphere of gods? That alone makes it bigger than universes.

Most of the Phantom zone is nothingness but you're right it wasn't due to s single punch but rather the fight between him and Zaar plus Superman later states he can destroy the dimension.
Eficiente said:
This is meaningless due to their size contained in a smaller space. Even then, it would be a Creation feat.
Click to expand...
I also disagreed more like Pocket Reality Manipulation.
Eficiente said:
This is just a casual conversation, it can't possibly be used.
Click to expand...
It's possible, since Ion a cosmic force that's connected to the infinite multiverse as it's will itself of the DC multiverse.
And we know what lanterns have done with this will.
Eficiente said:
Power with relation of the universe=/=High 3-A.
Click to expand...
Further proof or supprting evidence ion indeed has infinite power, "The power of the Universe flowing through me" statement made just by having Ion's power.
 
Vasco said:
Though I'm not also convinced but I'd remind you half of infinity is still infinity
Click to expand...
Sure, but infinity doesn't need to be thought of exclusively in fractions. If you have infinite grains of sand and remove 10 of them, 10 is still a finite number. The fact is that you can pull finite amounts from infinity.

Vasco said:
Isn't a Phantom Zone/Underworld a realm in the sphere of gods? That alone makes it bigger than universes.
Click to expand...
Realms in the sphere aren't necessarily greater than universes. The Sphere is a broad category of a variety of different unrelated realms, not all of these realms are the same in quality or in their relationship to the Orrery.
 
I could tell from those scans that the feat was taken out of context and read the comic. The gods live on Mount Olympus and need to move on from there, doing so is a classic comicbook cosmic event that follows its own made up rules; They need to destroy Olympus first, so they harness "the greatest power in all Olympus", prayers from the only people that believe on them, put it along "the amassed strength of the entire pantheon (of gods)" and use all that to shoot the fireball at Diana, whose pointed out to be helped by the protective power of her bracelets, that they were part of Zeus' mightly aegis itself, that the impenetrable shield formed from the hide of the great goat Amaltheia, who wet-nursed the infant Zeus & this provided the energy from which Olympus sprung, that it has the power of the aegis, that Amaltheia's power formed the corner stone of Olympus and her power will destroy it. Diana will charge a cosmic force, the accumulated energies of the gods intensified by Amazon prayer, and deflect it with her bracelets, the "fireball" will receive Amaltheaia's kiss (touch the bracelets) and be transformed into a burst more awesome than before. (Note!: Amalthea is the foster-motehr of Zeus, "Aegis" is a device carried by Athena and Zeus, the modern concept of doing something "under someone's aegis" means doing something under the protection of a powerful, knowledgeable, or benevolent source. One of its meanings is "The shield of a deity", which is pretty objectively its use here)

So,
  • The "fireball" has the accumulated power of all the gods in that comic (all of them minus Ares) intensified by prayers, which itself is a greater power than any one god that lives in Olympus. Note that even 1 god is more powerful than WW.
  • WW did this solely due to their bracelets, her bracelets scale, not her at all. Even then she was pretty overwhelmed by doing this.
    • WW has the ability to amp cosmic/godly energies deflected by her bracelets, so very situational Stats Amp for her.
  • Whoever submitted this feat sounds like such a fraud. To anyone with less experience in Vs Debates I say this in terms of results shown, not intentionality, never intentionality, nobody is ever doing to "do things wrong on purpose" in their own word, let alone admit it. At worst they do things wrong while lacking the care to improve upon the flaws that led to that, so they consistency keep on doing things wrong in the future, and if an OP thing they propose fails then it doesn't matter the reasoning behind why it's wrong so much as the fact that it was rejected currently, some other OP thing may be proposed tomorrow, it's fun. I say this in the hopes that it may positively help should anything close to this be recognized by anyone, as this worst case scenario is to be avoided or grow out of, but if you don't personally believe it applies then great for you, but that's that.
Wonder Woman has survived lightspeed attacks from Zoom (Wonder Woman Vol. 2 #214, May 2005), with lightspeed in DC being Infinite Mass (JLA Vol. 1. #3, March 1997) ✔️
Click to expand...

I have rejected that scan in the past, Flash's body mass incresing towards infinity doesn't mean he has infinite mass as in High 3-A, but that he has an ever-incresing mass the more he reaches lightspeed, with no limit to it. He didn't reach infinity as in High 3-A, the scan doesn't say that. The rules for this are variable anyway, a Speedster going at lightspeed can also make them have enough mass to destroy themselves uncontrollably as they become a singularity (See here the last feat in AP and Note 2)

Power with relation of the universe=/=High 3-A. This is completely unpresentable and it shows a massive lack of standards, it's wrong, not 〰️.
This is such anti-feat for Low 2-C. If any one of them was Low 2-C, one quick attack would do it, yet they have have to continually shoot for a long time, not only is this something they can't do alone, but even if it was 1 character doing this the fact that it's over some time means their every regular blow would be lower than this & thus wouldn't scale. There is a small, actually dumb logic tangle to this; "Low 2-C divided is still Low 2-C, so the fractions of it shown don't matter", right? Wrong, it's wanting to have your cake and eat it, under that own (correct) logic the fact that 1 character alone couldn't do it means 1 alone isn't Low 2-C, as they should be as that stat can't be divided, making it mean that their combined attacks being channeled by someone that controls energy has it greater than the individual sum of its parts, because again, 1 Low 2-C attack alone would do it otherwise. Same with the time it took them to charge this, if their every punch, kick, energy blast, etc. at their peak was Low 2-C then 1 quick blast would do it, as since it has to be continuous for some time that means what can be acquired doing that is greater than their every punch, kick, energy blast, etc. at their peak. "Low 2-C can't be divided" is used as a tool, what serves of it is used, and what contradicts things is literally inconceivable, that is being disingenuous.

The Spectre is the one that fills what they were accumulating into what turned into a new universe anyway, I don't think I need to say what this means.
Sculpt space-time are abilities, I know it's there "for context", but it shouldn't, as no profile's AP would say that. Similar with having "the energies of space and time".

I went to see the comic for context, after all "We thought we could find answers about our past in the past-- --and gave no thought to how badly the timescream was damaged before we took a deep plunse!" clearly implies the timescream was damaged beforehand and that what they do is otherwise inoffensive thing that's only causing issues due to that damage the timescream already had, and what I found was laughable. Legit the first scan; "The thirtieth century is crumbling. Each new second brings with another paradox... Each heartbeat, another contradiction in chronal continuity. Heroes thought long dead reappear without warning...while champions cherished as vital and alive vanish just as suddenly... ...and with each such entrance and exist the temporal fabric that knits the universe frays chllingly further." The timescream was already pretty f*cked up, Infinite-Man's power was a push further that would destroy it. This is following DC's rules on paradoxes and contradictions in a timeline that on their own damage a timeline, not AP.

That same first scan also says that Infinite-Man's power "might have contained the carnage", which means he might have been able to fix the paradoxes and contradictions talked about in that page, which is unqualifiable as they don't destroy the timeline or universe on its own, it's those 2 villains further f*cking things up that would cause that, and it's Space-Time hax anyway that fixes some things here and there that aren't meant to be a certain way (People being in points in time where they're not meant to, use Space-Time hax to fix that is pretty worthless).

I'll go over the rest soon.
 
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