DC Comics - The Legendary DC Heralds Upgrade

[Antvasima]

I mean we're still in the middle of discussing in those threads, unless we wanna just carry over what was in there into here.

If we do so, the feat-by-feat evaluation posts all need to be linked to, and it would likely turn even more confusing to keep track of than currently, so although I think that it would have been better if we had kept this discussion to a single thread to start with, at this point we would likely turn everything into an incomprehensible mess if we try to merge them back together again.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Firestorm might also have some High 3-A feats like fending off perfect shadowclones of The Orishas, who are comparable to Olorun, a sentient Universe in "Firestorm, The Nuclear Man #96"

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

There's also him one-shotting a shadowclone of Captain Atom who created "This reality using his powers" (Referring to the Captain Atom universe creation feat)

 

[LordTracer]

Infinite power shouldn't grant High 3-A, or really any tier, because it's an extremely vague phrase that is subject to a lot of really obvious complications, and is so often just hyperbole.

On its own, no, infinite power statements wouldn’t grant High 3-A. But when there’s High 3-A feats, infinite power statements can work as supporting evidence.

 

[Vasco]

Infinite power shouldn't grant High 3-A, or really any tier, because it's an extremely vague phrase that is subject to a lot of really obvious complications, and is so often just hyperbole.

I guess you'd have to make a thread on that.

Sure, but there's a big difference between specific and distinct statements of power like "can destroy a universe" and something like "limitless power" or "infinite power."

There are many many examples of things that are said to have infinite/limitless/unlimited power which are not universal.

Infinite power is accepted as High 3-A that's all I know if you find it vague, you can make a staff thread though also "i said it depends on the character who mentions infinite power like the statement page said" so who did? Is the character really knowledgeable?

 

[Vasco]

Well, maybe some of our staff members are willing to update the first post of this thread with "(Rejected)" or strikethroughs for all of the feats that have been rejected by comprehensive evaluations by our staff members in the other two connected threads?

If we do so, the feat-by-feat evaluation posts all need to be linked to, and it would likely turn even more confusing to keep track of than currently, so although I think that it would have been better if we had kept this discussion to a single thread to start with, at this point we would likely turn everything into an incomprehensible mess if we try to merge them back together again.

Agreed.

 

[Deagonx]

Some examples of non Tier-3 infinite power.


True Dark Genie, directly says "the infinite power given to me," 4-C

Princess Kaguya (Inuyasha), wields a robe which is a source of "infinite power" but is low 7-B.

Light Force, directly called a source of infinite powwer, 6-B

Pariah Dark, unlimited power, 4-A

Galaxia, unlimited power, 4-A

I'm just saying, words like "infinite, limitless, unlimited, endless" and others are ripe for hyperbole, and should be regarded with a great degree of scrutiny even beyond normal statements which claim specific feats (like the ability to create a universe, et cetera.) I strongly disagree with using phrases like that -- independent of clear and reliable feats or more specific statements -- to tier someone so highly.

Firestorm might also have some High 3-A feats like fending off perfect shadowclones of The Orishas, who are comparable to Olorun, a sentient Universe in "Firestorm, The Nuclear Man #96"

There's also him one-shotting a shadowclone of Captain Atom who created "This reality using his powers" (Referring to the Captain Atom universe creation feat)

He says "Blast! My shadowform, and I don't know if it's still leeching power from me" which seems to suggest that shadowclones are not perfect copies of their subjects or that they have the full power of the person they are copying.

Infinite power is accepted as High 3-A

No it isn't. The tiering system page doesn't actually say that. It says if infinite power can be demonstrated by affecting infinite mass, for example.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

He says "Blast! My shadowform, and I don't know if it's still leeching power from me" which seems to suggest that shadowclones are not perfect copies of their subjects or that they have the full power of the person they are copying.

That's true, all the shadow clones have half the power of the originals, but that shouldn't change much since Firestorm's power was also halved
The Shadow Captain Atom also still created his own universe, which is Low 2-C either way

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

So, in Shadowpact 21-22, the characters end up in Myrra. Myrra is protected by a magical forcefield to prevent anyone teleporting there. The dark magic idea of Unbound, however, is creating a beam that is strong enough to slowly overpower that forcefield and tear through the very fabric on the universe
Nightmaster then survives stepping into that beam. Could that work?

 

[LordTracer]

I strongly disagree with using phrases like that -- independent of clear and reliable feats or more specific statements -- to tier someone so highly.

And there are clear High 3-A feats listed in the OP, it’s not just infinite power statements.

 

[Deagonx]

The Shadow Captain Atom also still created his own universe, which is Low 2-C either way

Is it a universe? He just says "his own reality" which could just as easily refer to a minor dimension that he controls.

 

[Deagonx]

And there are clear High 3-A feats listed in the OP, it’s not just infinite power statements.

Okay, but that's sort of secondary to my point, right? If the High 3-A feats are valid, then the infinite power statements are mostly tertiary. So the focus should be on the validity of the alleged feats, not the infinite power statements.

 

[Antvasima]

Some examples of non Tier-3 infinite power.

True Dark Genie, directly says "the infinite power given to me," 4-C

Princess Kaguya (Inuyasha), wields a robe which is a source of "infinite power" but is low 7-B.

Light Force, directly called a source of infinite powwer, 6-B

Pariah Dark, unlimited power, 4-A

Galaxia, unlimited power, 4-A

I'm just saying, words like "infinite, limitless, unlimited, endless" and others are ripe for hyperbole, and should be regarded with a great degree of scrutiny even beyond normal statements which claim specific feats (like the ability to create a universe, et cetera.) I strongly disagree with using phrases like that -- independent of clear and reliable feats or more specific statements -- to tier someone so highly.


No it isn't. The tiering system page doesn't actually say that. It says if infinite power can be demonstrated by affecting infinite mass, for example.

I agree about that empty claims are usually considered cheap by our standards, and that we need more reliable evidence than that to go by.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Is it a universe? He just says "his own reality" which could just as easily refer to a minor dimension that he controls.

"His reality" is probably a universe since he was referencing the "Captain Atom Vol 2 54-55" events in which Captain Atom created his own universe in the Quantum Field

 

[LordTracer]

Okay, but that's sort of secondary to my point, right? If the High 3-A feats are valid, then the infinite power statements are mostly tertiary. So the focus should be on the validity of the alleged feats, not the infinite power statements.

I mean, the majority of the other High 3-A feats were already accepted and the infinite power statements are mainly supporting evidence.

 

[Deagonx]

I mean, the majority of the other High 3-A feats were already accepted and the infinite power statements are mainly supporting evidence.

Well I can't speak for all the feats in this thread, but going over the Superman thread I felt as though many of the feats being proposed were not well supported or relied upon very generous interpretations of vague things. I will go over the Green Lantern stuff later to see if it's the same situation.

 

[Vasco]

No it isn't. The tiering system page doesn't actually say that. It says if infinite power can be demonstrated by affecting infinite mass, for example.

Only by infinite mass? Will check again.

 

[Antvasima]

Well I can't speak for all the feats in this thread, but going over the Superman thread I felt as though many of the feats being proposed were not well supported or relied upon very generous interpretations of vague things. I will go over the Green Lantern stuff later to see if it's the same situation.

Yes, I agree. As I have repeatedly said, we should only scale from the most reliable gems among these feats.

 

[Deagonx]

Only by infinite mass? Will check again.

No, I said "for example."

 

[Hellbeast]

Just a reminder that this kind of revision is still not about sweepingly putting agreement stamps on everything. I agree with the basic premise, but we still need to significantly sift down all of the listed feats in all three threads to just the most reliable ones.

Well I think so

 

[TimeTrapperFanBoy]

Just a reminder that this kind of revision is still not about sweepingly putting agreement stamps on everything. I agree with the basic premise, but we still need to significantly sift down all of the listed feats in all three threads to just the most reliable ones.

Some of us probably have the same opinion as you do Ant ie myself. I also agree with the basic premise of this thread however I also disagree with some of the proposed feats ie the 4D Aztek Explosion, Superman's fight with Nebula Man, and a few others and you are correct we need to go over which feats are deemed reliable or not. Once we are done with this thread and we move on to scaling, I will give my reasoning as to why I agree with tier 2 Superman, specifically 2-C to 2-A.

 

[PapiSavitar5025]

Well, it is generally explained by him using avatars.

I feel like even his avatars often have high-showings, it's just we kept him at 4-B all these years to justify why Superman is able to fight -- and in most cases -- outright beat him.

 

[Lord_Farquaad69420]

I feel like even his avatars often have high-showings, it's just we kept him at 4-B all these years to justify why Superman is able to fight -- and in most cases -- outright beat him.

also, it feels weird since iirc new gods are immune to crisis events so why would he shift the avatars power from 2c to 2A down to 4B, also last i checked golden age directly scales to pre crisis

 

[PapiSavitar5025]

also, it feels weird since iirc new gods are immune to crisis events so why would he shift the avatars power from 2c to 2A down to 4B, also last i checked golden age directly scales to pre crisis

Pre Crisis scales to Golden Age, and Golden Age scales to Post-Crisis.

I'm also not sure where this 'Golden Age Superman gets weaker' thing comes from, but I find it hard to believe he got infinitely weaker. Yeah, he might not be on-par with Pre-Criss Supes anymore, but he should still be within that 2-C or 2-A range.

 

[Hellbeast]

That's a separate thread imo

 

[Eficiente]

• Superman and Steel move a tesseract(Superman: The Man of Steel Vol. 1 #100, May 2000)
  • This tesseract was described as infinite space within finite space (Superman: The Man of Steel Vol. 1 #99, April 2000), and is said to have Infinite space within (Superman Secret Files Vol. 1 #1, June 2000)

This one's definitely meaningless, a finite object with infinite things inside wouldn't have the properties of what it has inside outside. It's outright wrong, not .

• Child Brainiac gained the power of an infinite space Tesseract and Superman and Ultraman are capable of taking attacks from him. (Adventures of Superman Vol. 1 #605, August 2002)

Having a power source=/=being able to attack with his full power per blow unless proven, otherwise 1 attack would dry the Tesseract from all that infinite energy I assume it has, and it is an assumption, the thing having infinite space =/= it having infinite energy for CB to take, necessarily.

• Superman shakes the Phantom Zone with one punch(Superman (2018) (Rebirth) #6, February 2019)
  • The Phantom Zone is an anti-Universe (Action Comics Vol. 2 #11, September 2012) and has been called Infinite (JLA Vol. 1 #36 December, 1999)

It wasn't called "Infinite" but "unregion of infinitely compressed space" by a character that talks odd. Idk what "unregion" means, I think she means region, as in the PZ being limited, but more significantly she is clearly being hyperbolic on how compressed the PZ is in size, and calling a universe infinite is a common hyperbole, so the feat would only be shaking a universe at best.

The shaking also likely refers to the earthquakes in the distance, which would intuitively be the area around rather than every area of the anti-universe that could have earthquakes. Also also, it wasn't due to a punch, the punch happened, then more fighting was happening, and among it the fear happened. It was by the fight in general rather than that 1 punch seen the page before.

• Hal's ring is a conduit to Infinity(Green Lantern Vol. 3 #1, June 1990)

1) This is clearly poetic. 2) Being a conduit to that isn't the same as being it anyway. 3) Those rings clearly have limits to what they can do, even when not used in a way that's shooting their regular AP. 4) Why do you keep starting those words with caps when the comic doesn't? Is it just to make it look more notable when the comic doesn't give it that importance?

• Mogo is also said to have Limitless Power (Green Lantern Vol. 3 #159, April 2003)

The living planet is a never-ending resource of power due to being self-sustained, as it is abundantly more likely to take from this.

• Hal Jordan created Willworld, an entire Universe inside his ring that's described as an Infinite Sea(Green Lantern: Willworld, July 2001)
  • This is said to be something in all Lantern's rings (Green Lantern: Willworld, July 2001)
  • Kyle Rayner is also stated to have a world with no end inside his ring (Green Lantern Vol. 3 #80, November 1996)
  • Hal Jordan having a Universe inside his ring was brought back up in Rebirth (The Green Lantern Vol. 1 #7, July 2019)

This is meaningless due to their size contained in a smaller space. Even then, it would be a Creation feat.

• Ion has Infinite Power (Green Lantern Vol. 3 #146, March 2002)

This is just a casual conversation, it can't possibly be used.

• Nero with Ion's power also had the power of the Universe (Green Lantern Vol. 3 #145, February 2002)

Power with relation of the universe=/=High 3-A.

• The Human Lanterns were able to fight Guardians with the powers of the Emotional Entities (Green Lantern Vol. 4 #67, August 2011), with Entity-level scaling overall being consistent

I don't know if it's consistent, but I wouldn't think those emotional beings have a consistent, static stat for their power. Didn't Parallax Hal vary in power for example?

• Mr Terrific, who was certain Wally had Infinite and Incalculable power, isn't certain he's more powerful than Superman, implying he considers Superman to also have Infinite Power (The Flash (Rebirth) #775, October 2021)

Where do I start? "The power inside you" likely refers to the Speed Force. He's talking about Flash being powerful in a way he doesn't understand and know yet, this is pure potential, not standard. He also refers to the way he defies physics, so in context this infinite and incalculable power would have nothing to do with High 3-A as even moving at lightspeed yields infinite energy, and do something incalculable via ignoring physics can be anything. The fact that he doesn't know if Supes is above him shows uncertainty, not scaling.

I will go over the rest later.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

What about the feat Captain Atom has right now on his profile? Mary Marvel nearly beat him to death

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

I don't know if it's consistent, but I wouldn't think those emotional beings have a consistent, static stat for their power. Didn't Parallax Hal vary in power for example?

I'll just reply for this for now, but not really, his varying power level came from the fact that he would gain multiple power ups but also lose said power later on.

And if anything, it's more that hosts tend to be the one that vary in power rather than the entities itselves.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

What about the feat Captain Atom has right now on his profile? Mary Marvel nearly beat him to death

Basically, cap atom was far from at peak. He usually don't operate at his tier 2 power levels, Especially around that era because of emoism. The only one who legitimately scales to his tier 2 stuff is already tiered, i.e. SPB. Also, there was this monitor who tanked the attack with a forcefield. That might be worth considering tho for scaling.

Some of us probably have the same opinion as you do Ant ie myself. I also agree with the basic premise of this thread however I also disagree with some of the proposed feats ie the 4D Aztek Explosion, Superman's fight with Nebula Man, and a few others and you are correct we need to go over which feats are deemed reliable or not. Once we are done with this thread and we move on to scaling, I will give my reasoning as to why I agree with tier 2 Superman, specifically 2-C to 2-A.

We are covering scaling in this thread, only after we're done evaluating feats. Though lemme guess, are you scaling him to Pre-Crisis?

 

[Vasco]

• Mr Terrific, who was certain Wally had Infinite and Incalculable power, isn't certain he's more powerful than Superman, implying he considers Superman to also have Infinite Power (The Flash (Rebirth) #775, October 2021)

Where do I start? "The power inside you" likely refers to the Speed Force. He's talking about Flash being powerful in a way he doesn't understand and know yet, this is pure potential, not standard. He also refers to the way he defies physics, so in context this infinite and incalculable power would have nothing to do with High 3-A as even moving at lightspeed yields infinite energy, and do something incalculable via ignoring physics can be anything. The fact that he doesn't know if Supes is above him shows uncertainty, not scaling.

Will reply this later.

 

[Firestorm808]

https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343

https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-superman-universal-feats-discussion-continuation.147384

Current/Former Staff Agrees/Disagrees Vote Tally for Specific Feats

Revised 1/27/23​

The following Staff have either given blanket agrees or limited verifications: @LordTracer (Tier 2, minus the Kyle Rayner/Anarky and Starheart stuff.)@KLOL506 @Planck69 @Maverick_Zero_X, @Qawsedf234 (Green Lantern - High 3A, Tier 2, Flash Tier 2, WW Tier 2, New Gods Tier 2), @Matthew_Schroeder (Superman Tier 2)

Please notify us if you wish to revise or add any feat verifications below.

I added "Somewhat" for replies that use a non-commital "I guess" with a link to the original post.

I have updated some of my verifications.

Post Crisis​

Others​

• Infinite Man has the energies of space and time(Superboy and the Legion of Super-Heroes Vol. 1 #233, November 1977)
  • Qawsedf234: Somewhat Agree -
    https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5367187
  • Eficiente: Disagree | https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5380593
  • Firestorm808: Unsure - Use as secondary support
• Infinite Man is as powerful as Darkseid(Legion of Super-Heroes Vol. 3 #18, January 1986)
  • Firestorm808: Agree
• Infinite Man stalemated the Time Trapper(Legion of Super-Heroes Vol. 3 #50, September 1988)
  • Firestorm808: Agree
• Shazam and Lobo's fight rock the cosmos. (Captain Atom #57, September 1991)
  • Qawsedf234: Disagree -
    https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5367187
  • Firestorm808: Disagree - More context needed
• While fighting a serious Captain Atom, Hank Hall Monarch twisted space and time, destroying Universes within atoms(Armageddon 2001 Vol. 1 #2, October 1991)
  • Qawsedf234: Somewhat Agree -
    https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5367187
  • Firestorm808: Somewhat Disagree
  • Eficiente: Disagree | https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5394496
• Infinite-Man's power can sculpt space-time, could destroy the Universe, including the timestream(Legionnaires Vol. 1 #18, September 1994)
  • Qawsedf234: Somewhat Agree -
    https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5367187
  • Eficiente: Disagree | https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5380593
  • LordTracer: Agree | https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5409787
  • Firestorm808: Somewhat Agree
• Hank Hall Monarch is comparable to Despero and Dreamslayer(Justice League America Vol. 1 #87, April 1994)
  • Firestorm808: Agree
  • the latter being a rival to Darkseid(Justice League America Vol. 1 #88, May 1994)
    • Firestorm808: Agree
• Extant defeats Kent Nelson Doctor Fate(Zero Hour: Crisis in Time Vol. 1 #3, September 1994)
  • Firestorm808: Somewhat Agree
  • Eficiente: Disagree | Scaling issues | https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5394496
• Hourman has Infinite Power(Secret Origins of Super-Villains 80-Page Giant, December 1999)
  • LordTracer: Agree - https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5378069
  • Maverick_Zero_X: Somewhat Agree - https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5378040
  • Qawsedf234: Disagree - https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5367187 | https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5367484
  • Firestorm808: Unsure - Use as secondary support
• Black Adam tanks lightning from and staggers Hector Hall Doctor Fate(JSA Vol. 1 #6, January 2000)
  • LordTracer: Agree | https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5409787
  • Firestorm808: Unsure - Do the automatic Helmet defenses scale to his base stats
  • Eficiente: Unsure | https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5394496
• Starbreaker has laid waste to Galactic Clusters(Adam Strange Vol. 2 #7, May 2005)
  • Qawsedf234: Disagree -
    https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5367187
  • Firestorm808: Disagree - Laid Waste is not total destruction
• Wally West fights Pre Crisis Reverse Flash(The Flash Vol.2 #224, September 2005)
  • LordTracer: Somewhat Agree | https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5409787
  • Eficiente: Disagree | Outlier | https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5394496
• Starbreaker overpowered the person who merged Universes(Justice League of America Vol. 2 #34, August 2009)
  • Qawsedf234: Disagree - https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5367768
  • Firestorm808: Disagree - Per Dharma, he is not physically holding these universes together. Through his will, he is using the Rift power to merge the universes together.
  • Eficiente: Disagree | https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5394496
• Characters with Infinite Man's power had Infinite Power(Legionnaires Vol. 1 #18, September, 1994),
  • as was stated many times (Valor Vol. 1 #23, September 1994)
  • Qawsedf234: Somewhat Agree -
    https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5367187
  • Firestorm808: Unsure - Use as secondary support

Gods​

Qawsedf234: Agree - The ratings are fine, but remember that they're in the 4th world in their true form. Such a scale is meaningless for cross-scaling. | https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5367187

• Dreggs have the power of a Universe(New Gods Vol. 3 #26, May 1991)
  • Darkseid could've destroyed Dreggs if they weren't already dead (New Gods Vol 3 #6, July 1989)
  • Firestorm808: Unsure Use as secondary Support | Needs more context, but there is a difference between the lifeless Old Gods (the ones Darkseid curb stomps) and those that got their life back.
  • Eficiente: Disagree | https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5380593
• Random Gods of New Genesis are capable of creating universes. (Mister Miracle Vol. 3 #1, April 1996)
  • Firestorm808: Unsure - More context is needed. MM is about to become a new god, the alleged nexus of positive energy in the universe, but the other New Gods are supposedly making universes? Was there more than one universe at this time?
  • Eficiente: Unsure |
    https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5388169
• Orion's Astro-Force is considered capable of stopping what can annihilate the cosmos(Jack Kirby's Fourth World Vol. 1 #4, June 1997)
  • LordTracer: Agree | https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5409787
  • Firestorm808: Agree
  • Eficiente: Conditional Agree | 3-A | https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5394496
• Orion has control over the Fundamental Forces of the Universe(JLA Vol. 1 #41, May 2000)
  • Firestorm808: Somewhat Disagree
  • Eficiente: Disagree | https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5394496
• Darkseid tanks a bomb that rips apart existence. (Action Comics Vol. 1 Annual #13, February 2011)
  • Firestorm808: Unsure | Hax or AP?
  • Eficiente: Disagree | https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5394496

Wonder Woman​

• Wonder Woman withstands and deflects a fireball with infinite power. (Wonder Woman Vol. 2 #21, October 1988)
  • LordTracer: Agree | Dupporting Evidence | https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5409787
  • Qawsedf234: Somewhat Agree -
    https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5367472
  • Eficiente: Disagree | https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5380593
  • Firestorm808: Unsure - Is this hax? Per the comic, WW's bracelets are the key, part of Zeus's Aegis, which came from the Amaltheia beast. At the Gods' direction, the Amazons begin to pray, Menalippe converting these prayers into raw energy for the Gods. As one, the empowered Gods launch a bolt of divine might at Diana, who deflects, transforms, and amplifies it with her bracelets using the Amaltheia properties. Diana used her bracelet's hax to deflect the attack of the enhanced gods. She never felt the initial potential bast force or the final amplified blast force.
• Wonder Woman has survived lightspeed attacks from Zoom (Wonder Woman Vol. 2 #214, May 2005), with lightspeed in DC being Infinite Mass(JLA Vol. 1. #3, March 1997)
  • Qawsedf234: Somewhat Agree - If High 3-A lightspeed punches are accepted | https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5367187
  • Eficiente: Disagree |
    https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5380593
  • LordTracer: Agree | https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5409787
  • Firestorm808: Unsure
    • The most recent precedent at the time regarding punching at light speed is with the force of a white dwarf. Per Flash, he’s never used this level of force before. | The Flash Vol 2 #148, May 1999
      • Flash didn't hit with infinite mass back in 1997
    • Can we say that something hit with the relativistic force of infinite mass if there aren't any signs or environmental effects in this era?
    • Later the environmental effects of speedsters traveling at true lightspeed lead to a singularity are established. Final Crisis: Legion of 3 Worlds Vol 1 #3 April 2009
• A battle between Diana and Cassie makes it seem like the energies of the Universe are erupting and will tear the foundations of reality(Wonder Woman Vol. 2 #156, May 2000)
  • Firestorm808: Somewhat Disagree - That's not Diana or Cassie. That was Amazon Artemis and Devas. Not sure how she got a Godwave sword or if her durability scales to it. Deva did defeat Artemis rather easily.
  • Eficiente: Disagree | https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5394496
• Wonder Woman has defeated Circe, with Circe only going as far as to call Diana her equal(Wonder Woman Vol. 2 #176, January 2002)
  • Qawsedf234: Agree | https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5367187
  • Firestorm808: Agree
  • Circe was consistently stated to be an urgent threat to the entire Universe(War of the Gods Vol. 1 #4, December 1991)
  • with it later being stated she nearly destroyed the Universe(Wonder Woman Vol. 2 #62, February 1992)
    • LordTracer: Agree | https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5368126
    • Firestorm808: Disagree - It wasn't the spell that would directly threaten the universe. It was directly aimed to kill Queen Hypolita, who was trying to revive Diana. This, in turn, would change the course of the War and threaten the universe. It just ended up killing a follower instead. Circe nearly destroyed the universe through her manipulations, not pure power.
    • Eficiente: Disagree |
      https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5385016
      , https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5388169

Superman​

• Superman could have stopped Hank Hall Monarch. (Adventures of Superman Annual #3, October 1991)
  • Qawsedf234: Somewhat Agree - https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-co...s-discussion-continuation.147384/post-5368861
  • Firestorm808: Unsure - Is the comic implying that Superman would have solo'd him or that he would have teamed up with the others again?
  • Eficiente: Disagree |
    https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5394496
• Superman is implied to be capable of defeating Extant, who is stronger than Hank Hall Monarch. (Zero Hour: Crisis in Time #1, September 1994)
  • Triumph, who one shot Hourman(JLA Vol. 1 #29, May 1999)
    • could only contend with Superman after siphoning his Solar Energy (JLA Vol. 1 #31, July 1999)
  • Extant had an edge over Hourman(JSA Vol. 1 #13 August, 2000).
  • Firestorm808: Somewhat Disagree - Not concrete, but we'll use it as secondary support.
  • Qawsedf234: Disagree - https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-co...s-discussion-continuation.147384/post-5368861
  • Eficiente: Disagree | https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5394496
• Superman, Captain Atom, Darkstar and the Ray contribute to the energy of a Big Bang. (Zero Hour: Crisis in Time #0, September 1994)
  • LordTracer: Agree | https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5409787
  • Eficiente: Disagree | https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5384482 | https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5396206
  • Qawsedf234: Disagree -
    https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5367187
  • Firestorm808: Unsure - Superman worked with Captain Atom, Darkstar, the Ray, Spectre, Waverider, and Damage.
• Superman survives Aztek's self destruction of 4th Dimensional energy(JLA Vol. 1 #41, May 2000)
  • Aztek's energy had previously been described as Limitless 4th Dimensional energy (JLA Vol 1 #10 September, 1997)
  • Qawsedf234: Disagree | https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5367187
  • Firestorm808: Unsure - Does Aztek have any feats or scaling to support this implied level of power? Per the Tiering FAQ and the use of "higher dimensional" stuff, we need some context regarding how 4D is applied here.
  • Eficiente: Disagree | https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5381445
• Superman and Steel move a tesseract(Superman: The Man of Steel Vol. 1 #100, May 2000)
  • This tesseract was described as infinite space within finite space (Superman: The Man of Steel Vol. 1 #99, April 2000), and is said to have Infinite space within (Superman Secret Files Vol. 1 #1, June 2000)
  • Firestorm808: Disagree - I don't think there is justification for the object to have infinite mass.
  • Qawsedf234: Disagree -
    https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5367187
  • Eficiente: Disagree - https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5379269
• Superman survives the collapse of the universe. (Superman: Where Is Thy Sting, 2001)
  • Death implies that WITS really happened. (Superman: Where Is Thy Sting, 2001)
  • Lois references WITS in Rebirth. (Action Comics Vol. 1 #1030, June 2021)
  • Qawsedf234: Disagree -
    https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-superman-universal-feats-discussion-continuation.147384/post-5375848
  • Eficiente: Disagree | https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5381445 | https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5398501
  • Firestorm808: Disagree - https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-co...s-discussion-continuation.147384/post-5374004
    • Per the comic panels, the cosmos is going through entropy. Dead stars collapsing inward, their energy sputtering and fading. All things, all matter in creation, dissolving, disintegrating. Stars wink out one by one. In the end, only the black hole from the last star is left with Superman, each nuclear flash weaker than the one before.
    • According to other Staff, surviving the heat death of the universe is a hax feat rather than durability.
    • The point is that Heat Death in general isn't treated as a Tier 3 feat. In the case of Superman, he was with the last black hole from the last star. It's not infinite mass. All other stars have already gone through their black hole phase and faded away to nothingness. Being in the black hole would just be rated Tier 4 AFAIK.
• Universal senses - Superman is able to tell that the entire Universe and Creation is in its dying stages. (Superman: Where Is Thy Sting, 2001)
  • LordTracer: Agree - https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-co...s-discussion-continuation.147384/post-5375841
  • Qawsedf234: Disgree - https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-co...s-discussion-continuation.147384/post-5375848
  • Firestorm808: Disagree - https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-co...s-discussion-continuation.147384/post-5375824
• Child Brainiac gained the power of an infinite space Tesseract and Superman and Ultraman are capable of taking attacks from him. (Adventures of Superman Vol. 1 #605, August 2002)
  • Qawsedf234: Somewhat Agree - https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5367187
  • Eficiente: Disagree - https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5379269
  • LordTracer: Agree | https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5409787
  • Firestorm808: Unsure - Brainiac has these High 3-A levels of energy. If all his attacks were High 3-A, wouldn't it have run out after the first few shots? It's a question of Energy Capacity VS Energy Output. See DBZ Androids
• Superman fights and takes hits from the Entropy Aegis while explicitly stated to be holding back. (Superman: The Man of Steel #134, March 2003). The Entropy Aegis is stated to be the power to remake and destroy the universe. (Superman Versus Darkseid: Apokolips Now, March 2003)
  • Qawsedf234: Disagree -
    https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5367187
  • Eficiente: Disagree | https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5381445
  • Firestorm808: Disagree - The way the Aegis and Imperiex work doesn't allow it to scale to people normally. Imerpiex's Tier 2 is a Chain Reaction Self Destruct.
• Superman overpowers Nebula Man, who is stated to be a universe. (JLA Classified #2, March 2005)
  • Nebula Man is confirmed to be a universe. (Seven Soldiers: Frankenstein #4, May 2006)
  • LordTracer: Agree
  • Eficiente: Disagree | https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5381445 | https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5396206
  • Qawsedf234: Disagree -
    https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5367187
  • Firestorm808: Disagree - Because you have to shrink to get into an infinitesimally small universe, I wouldn't count it as Tier 3 in comparison to the standard universe.
• Superman's clash with his Golden Age counterpart shattered the boundaries of Space-Time and changed timelines(Superman Vol. 2 #226, April 2006, Action Comics Vol. 1 #836, April 2006, Adventures of Superman Vol. 1 #649, April 2006)
  • Qawsedf234: Agree -
    https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5367187
  • Eficiente: Disagree | https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5381445 | https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5395901 | Reality Warping
  • LordTracer: Agree | https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5409787
  • Firestorm808: Unsure
• Captain Atom is sent flying by someone he compares to an out of control Superman, and believes he'd need all his power to defeat her(Captain Atom: Armageddon Vol. 1 #7, June 2006)
  • LordTracer: Agree | https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5409787
  • Qawsedf234: Unsure | https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5367472
  • Firestorm808: Somewhat Agree
  • Eficiente: Unsure | https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5394496
• Superman staggered the Red King, made him yell in pain, and survived an attack from him while weakened (JLA Classified Vol. 1 #35, April 2007), and was confident he could fight the Red King for an extended period of time(JLA Classified Vol. 1 #36, May 2007)
  • The Red King destroyed realities (JLA Classified Vol. 1 #35, April 2007) multipletimes, with these realities containing multiple Universes (JLA Classified Vol. 1 #36, May 2007)
  • Qawsedf234: Disagree -
    https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5367472
  • Eficiente: Disagree | https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5388169 | https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5396206
  • Firestorm808: Unsure
• Supergirl and Superman tank attacks from Blackstarr, who has power over the energy of the cosmos. (Action Comics Vol. 1 #850, July 2007)
  • Firestorm808: Disagree - More context is needed.
  • Qawsedf234: Disagree - https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-co...s-discussion-continuation.147384/post-5368861
  • Eficiente: Disagree | https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5394496
• Supergirl tanks hits from Reactron and easily overpowers him(Supergirl Vol. 5 #25, March 2008)
  • Qawsedf234: Disagree - https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5367187
  • and later tanks a stray blast from his fight with Superman. Reactron is stated to have the power of a thousand galaxiesin his hands. (Supergirl Vol. 5 #26, April 2008)
    • Qawsedf234: Disagree -
      https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5367187
• Superboy is able to damage Superboy-Prime(Final Crisis: Legion of Three Worlds Vol. 1 #4, June 2009)
  • LordTracer: Agree | https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5409787
  • Firestorm808: Somewhat Agree
  • Qawsedf234: Unsure - https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-co...s-discussion-continuation.147384/post-5368861
  • Eficiente: Disagree | https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5394496
• Superman tanks a blast from Mordru and harms him. (Final Crisis: Legion of Three Worlds Vol. 1 #4, June 2009)
  • LordTracer: Agree | https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5409787
  • Qawsedf234: Unsure -
    https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5367187
  • Firestorm808: Somewhat Agree
  • Eficiente: Disagree | Outlier | https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5394496
• Superman briefly fights Time Trapper Superman-Prime. (Final Crisis: Legion of Three Worlds Vol. 1 #4, June 2009)
  • LordTracer: Agree | https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5409787
  • Qawsedf234: Somewhat Agree - https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5367187
  • Firestorm808: Somewhat Agree
  • Eficiente: Unsure | https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5394496 | https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5398501
• Superman trades blows with Time Trapper Superman-Prime, but is overpowered. (Final Crisis: Legion of Three Worlds #5, September 2009)
  • LordTracer: Agree | https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5409787
  • Qawsedf234: Somewhat Agree - https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5367187
  • Firestorm808: Somewhat Agree
  • Eficiente: Unsure | https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5394496

Lanterns​

• Flodo encompasses and destroys an evil Galaxy(Green Lantern Corps Vol. 1 #219, December 1987)
  • Qawsedf234: Disagree - https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5368718
  • Firestorm808: Disagree - https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5366716
• The GLC Central Battery can become as large as and destroy the entire Universe(Green Lantern Corps Vol. 1 #224, May 1988)
  • Context: The yellow impurity was seizing control of the battery, so now it’s reclaiming all the green energy, pulling it back into itself in order to keep that impurity contained. Soon, the Central Power Battery will siphon all of the green energy back into itself. It will go on to overload, causing a massive power buildup. This will, in turn, trigger an explosion, transforming OA itself into an immense black hole, large enough to draw the entire universe into it.
  • Firestorm808: Agree - With this context, it means that the total Green Energy within its siphoning range for overload and buildup is enough to destroy the universe
  • Eficiente: Agree | https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5384482
• Hal Jordan has survived attacks from Sinestro possessing the Central Battery(Green Lantern Corps Vol. 1 #224, May 1988)
  • Context: 11 Guardians give Hal power for his task. Ganthet is revitalized by entering the lantern. A Snake construct drains a significant amount of Hal's energy. Sinestro's mind takes over the core of the CPB. Hal is restrained by Sinestro. Sinestro absorbs Hal's remaining power before he starts slowly killing him. Ganthet is revitalized by entering the lantern. Ganthet bestows a portion of his power to Hal. The revitalized Hal is still unable to fight Sinestro directly, but still taking energy blasts. So, Hal removes the Yellow impurity from the core to weaken and remove Sinestro.
  • Firestorm808: Unsure - I'm unsure if we can scale Hal from this because of a lot of Guardian meddling. To my knowledge, it didn't collect all the energy yet, so I'm unsure how to rate this quantity. Scaling the Guardians seems fine.
  • Eficiente: Disagree | https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5384482
• Hal's ring is a conduit to Infinity(Green Lantern Vol. 3 #1, June 1990)
  • Eficiente: Disagree - https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5379269
  • Firestorm808: Unsure - Use as secondary support
• Ganthet creates a construct to shield himself from the Big Bang(Green Lantern: Ganthet's Tale, November 1992)
  • Context: Krona created a time viewer to see the beginning of the universe. A searing bolt of cosmic force shattered Krona's great machine and damaged his lab. Ganthet also constructs a time viewer to see the beginning as well. Gantehet experienced the same explosive result.
  • Firestorm808: Disagree - Neither Krona nor Ganthet actually experienced the force of the big bang, just their time viewer shattering. Otherwise, the entire planet would have blown up from the big bang.
  • Eficiente: Disagree | https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5384482
• Hal Jordan temporarily making a city (Green Lantern Vol 3 #48, January 1994)
  • Firestorm808: His city construct ended because the "ring's charge is gone" because of the time limit. Nothing is related to complexity.
• Kyle Rayner survives being blown away by the Zero Hour Big Bang(Zero Hour: Crisis in Time #0, September 1994)
  • Context: Green Lantern Vol 3 #0, October 1994 - Following Zero Hour, Parallax Hal and Kyle are in a tunnel. Parallax Hal explains: They were outside of time when the universe was being recreated. Waverider created a rift to re-enter reality at the precise moment or be lost forever. Most of Hal's power was gone. He linked with Waverider's rift and formed a vortex to bring himself back to Oa. Kyle was drawn along.
  • Firestorm808: Disagree - It got retconned as to how they survived. They didn't actually take the force of the blast and be lost forever.
  • Eficiente: Disagree | https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5384482
• Guardians are being compared in power to individual central power batteries(Doomsday Annual, December 1995).
  • Firestorm808: Somewhat Agree
  • Eficiente: Unsure | https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5385016
• Kyle Rayner is also stated to have a world with no end inside his ring(Green Lantern Vol. 3 #80, November 1996)
  • Firestorm808: Unsure - The scan says battery, not his ring.
• Kyle says Guardians and Controllers have Big Bang level power(Justice League: A Midsummer's Nightmare Vol. 1 #3, November 1996)
  • LordTracer: Agree | https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5409787
  • Firestorm808: Unsure
  • Eficiente: Disagree on their own but Agree w/ Tech | https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5385016
• Kyle Rayner and Anarky reverse the warping of the universe. (Anarky Vol. 2 #3, July 1999)
  • Firestorm808: Unsure - I would consider the Planck stuff more limited Law Manipulation or Reality Warping than something AP. I can see the future Abberation being Tier 2, but what should we rate the small aberration within the initial sphere?
  • Eficiente: Disagree | https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5385016
• Alan Scott's Starheart fragment self-destructing can destroy a Solar System (JSA Vol 1 #19 February 2001)
  • Firestorm808: I don't think we have justification for AP vs DC in this scenario. It's a raw explosion of energy of all the energy inside of him, not a focused attack. The explosion is his body's limit.
  • Qawsedf234: "I don't see why you focusing hard means you scale to something that kills you when doing it." | https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-co...s-discussion-continuation.147385/post-5375863
• Hal Jordan created Willworld, an entire Universe inside his ring that's described as an Infinite Sea(Green Lantern: Willworld, July 2001)
  • Ring Worlds are said to be something in all Lantern's rings (Green Lantern: Willworld, July 2001)
  • Eficiente: Disagree - https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5379269
  • Firestorm808: Disagree - Not in the Ring, in the CPB | https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-co...s-discussion-continuation.147385/post-5374034
• Ion could remake the Universe(Green Lantern Vol. 3 #145, February 2002)
  • LordTracer: Agree | https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5409787
  • Firestorm808: Agree - Use as secondary support
  • Eficiente: Agree but with multiple power sources | https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5385016
• Nero with Ion's power also had the power of the Universe(Green Lantern Vol. 3 #145, February 2002)
  • Firestorm808: Unsure - Use as secondary support
  • Eficiente: Disagree - https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5379269
• Ion has Infinite Power(Green Lantern Vol. 3 #146, March 2002)
  • Firestorm808: Unsure - Use as secondary support
  • Eficiente: Disagree - https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5379269
• Mogo is also said to have Limitless Power(Green Lantern Vol. 3 #159, April 2003)
  • Eficiente: Disagree - https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5379269
  • Firestorm808: Unsure - Use as secondary support
• John Stewart reaches his ring's limit when trying to recreate the Xanshi Star system.(Green Lantern Vol 4 #26 February 2008)
  • Firestorm808: John's ring said nothing about the complexity of structures. "Warning: Willpower exceeding Power Ring Capabilities." From that warning, his Ring can't go past the current energy output of willpower to maintain the structure.
• Hal escapes (Crispus Allen) Black Lantern Spectre's grasp and knocks out Black Lantern Crispus Allen’s jaw(Green Lantern Vol 4 #50 March 2010)
  • Firestorm808: Somewhat Agree - I can see BLCA being stronger that Atrocitus
  • Eficiente: Disagree | https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5394496
  • LordTracer: Agree | https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5409787
• Arc
  • The Guardians believed Kyle Rayner could kill Alan Scott possessed by the Meteor Starheart, (Justice League of America Vol. 2 #47, September 2010)
    • Firestorm808: Agree |
      https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-green-lantern-universal-feats-discussion-continuation.147385/post-5374322
  • Kyle fought an Obsidian/Jade mergewhile gradually losing power (Justice League of America Vol. 2 #48, October 2010),
    • Firestorm808: Agree |
      https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-green-lantern-universal-feats-discussion-continuation.147385/post-5374322
    • both the halves of the light and dark of the Starheart(Justice Society of America Vol. 3 #42, October 2010),
      • Firestorm808: Disagree | This form doesn't scale to the Full Starheart |
        https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-green-lantern-universal-feats-discussion-continuation.147385/post-5374322
    • The Starheart can obliterate reality (DC Comics Official Website)
      • Eficiente: Disagree | https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5385016
      • Firestorm808: Disagree | Using this summary isn't directly related to the actual plot of the Starheart. |
        https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-green-lantern-universal-feats-discussion-continuation.147385/post-5374322
• Hal kills Krona with a blast through the chest (Green Lantern Vol 4 #67 August 2011)
  • Krona takes Atrocitus' Napalm breath and bite to his neck. (Green Lantern Vol 4 #62 March 2011)
  • Atrocitus peak scales to the Butcher (Green Lantern Vol 4 #61 February 2011)
    • Butcher James Kim is able to severely damage CA Spectre
    • Atrocitus’s spear construct pierces Butcher James Kim
    • Atrocitus was confident to chain the Butcher
  • LordTracer: Agree | https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5409787
  • Firestorm808: Somewhat Agree
  • Eficiente: Disagree | https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5394496 | https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5398501
• The Human Lanterns were able to fight Guardians with the powers of the Emotional Entities(Green Lantern Vol. 4 #67, August 2011), with Entity-level scaling overall being consistent
  • LordTracer: Agree | https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5409787
  • Firestorm808: Unsure - They say that the Possessed Guardians are impervious to their ring. If we saw them facing a different possessed being and did sizeable damage like Atrocitus, I would be more willing to agree.
  • Eficiente: Unsure - https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5379269

Rebirth​

Flash​

Qawsedf234: Somewhat Agree | https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5367187

• Barry Allen and Godspeed survived attacks from an amped Paradox, who was destroying the timestream(The Flash Vol. 1 #755, August 2020)
  • Firestorm808: Somewhat Disagree
  • Eficiente: Disagree -
    https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5385016
• Mr Terrific, who was certain Wally had Infinite and Incalculable power, isn't certain he's more powerful than Superman, implying he considers Superman to also have Infinite Power (The Flash (Rebirth) #775, October 2021)
  • LordTracer: Agree | https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5409787
  • Firestorm808: Somewhat Agree
  • Eficiente: Somewhat Disagree - https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5379269

Superman​

• Superman states he could make the entire Phantom Zone cease to exist if he really put his head to it. (Superman Vol 5 #5 January 2019) and Superman shakes the Phantom Zone with one punch(Superman (2018) (Rebirth) #6, February 2019)
  • The Phantom Zone is an anti-Universe (Action Comics Vol. 2 #11, September 2012)
  • The Phantom Zone has been called Infinite (JLA Vol. 1 #36 December, 1999)
  • Qawsedf234: Agree - https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5367187 | https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-co...s-discussion-continuation.147384/post-5371320
  • Eficiente: Unsure - https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5379269 | https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5398501
  • LordTracer: Agree | https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5409787
  • Firestorm808: Somewhat Agree
• Superman survived attacks from and matches Molly(Justice League Vol. 4 #19, May 2019)
  • with the power of the Central Battery and other sources (Justice League Vol. 4 #17, April 2019)
  • Firestorm808: Somewhat Disagree | Need More Context. The CPB no longer has Ion.
  • Eficiente: Disagree | https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5384482
• Superman punches out Barbatos(Dark Nights: Death Metal Trinity Crisis, November 2020)
  • Qawsedf234: Somewhat Agree - https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5367187
  • Firestorm808: Somewhat Agree
  • LordTracer: Agree | https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5409787
  • Eficiente: Disagree | https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5394496
• Superman one-shot Auteur.io(Batman/Superman Vol. 2 #21, October 2021)
  • Auteur.io created the Archive of Worlds, an archive of realities (Batman/Superman Vol. #19, August 2021),
  • and could destroy them if he didn't like them (Batman/Superman Vol. 2 #17, June 2021)
  • Qawsedf234: Somewhat Agree -
    https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5367187
  • LordTracer: Agree | https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5409787
  • Firestorm808: Unsure - Not knowledgeable on recent cosmic stuff.
• Superman separates two worlds(Batman/Superman Vol. 2 #21, October 2021)
  • These worlds are represented as tapes, the literal fabric of reality (Batman/Superman Vol. 2 #17, June 2021),
  • and each strip is a different reality (Batman/Superman Vol. 2 #20, September 2021)
  • Firestorm808: Unsure - Do you need to be a certain strength to affect the film?
  • Eficiente: Disagree | https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5394496
• Supergirl survived a barrage that could've brought down Galaxies(Supergirl: Woman of Tomorrow Vol. 1 #7, March 2022)
  • Qawsedf234: Disagree -
    https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5367187
  • Firestorm808: Disagree - The attacks depicted do not correlate to bringing down galaxies all at once

Lanterns​

• Hal Jordan sent tremors across the entire Emotional Spectrum(Hal Jordan and the Green Lantern Corps, September 2016),
  • Firestorm808: Unsure - While I agree that Hal sent tremors through the Spectrum, nothing suggests the effect went past his current universe.
  • Qawsedf234: Limited to Range of effect | https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-co...s-discussion-continuation.147385/post-5377728
• Orion's battle with an Nth Metal Golem destroys a Star System. (Hal Jordan and the Green Lantern Corps Vol 1 #26, October 2017)
  • Firestorm808: Disagree - It wasn't the shockwaves of exchanged attacks. From the scans, it was the Golem that released an energy burst that destroyed the star system and injured Orion.
• Hal also believes he could defeat Dawnbreaker (Dark Multiverse Lantern Batman) who defeated the Guardians(Hal Jordan and the Green Lantern Corps Vol. 1 #32, January 2018)
  • Firestorm808: Agree - Part of his Rebirth Pure Will Ring Boost
• Human Lanterns fought and overpowered the Controllers before being mind-controlled(Hal Jordan and the Green Lantern Corps Vol. 1 #36, March 2018).
  • Firestorm808: Somewhat Agree - I'm assuming that Controllers are still comparable to the standard Guardian by this time.
• Hal Jordan stops a bomb that could affect all matter in the Universe and destroy it(The Green Lantern Vol. 1 #6, June 2019)
  • Context: The U-Bomb's detonation would cause all matter in the universe to bind to a compressed quark core.
  • "We're divering all the power you need from the central battery reserves. Disarm the U-Bomb!"
  • "All we know is this -- prior to his disappearance, an energy output was recorded equivalent to ten-to-the-44th-power joules."
  • The Green Lantern Vol 1 #7 July 2019
    • Using the Central Power Battery, Hal stops the detonation, is shot into deep space, and is miniaturized into his ring.
    • "There was a U-Bomb. I had to disarm it. Guardians diverted the entire output of the Central Battery through my power ring--shot us into deep space-- enough energy to kill me, but the ring-- the ting would to anything to keep me alive--
  • Firestorm808: Unsure - Do we take the context as the Central Power Battery is the limit of his power channeling in this case? Did Hal not have the energy at the time to perform the task on his own? The CPB no longer has Ion.
• Hal Jordan having a Universe inside his ring was brought back up in Rebirth(The Green Lantern Vol. 1 #7, July 2019)
  • Firestorm808: Disagree - Regarding the universe inside the ring, it's a micro-verse as reverse miniaturization is used to get people out of it, so I don't think this qualifies as Tier 3. Ring Worlds are different than Battery Worlds
  • Qawsedf234: Disagree - https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-co...s-discussion-continuation.147385/post-5375863 | https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-co...s-discussion-continuation.147385/post-5375880

 

[KLOL506]

So has anyone sorted out the Kingdom Come conundrum?

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

So has anyone sorted out the Kingdom Come conundrum?

We'll handle him later.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

So, should the Firestorm feat count here? I think saying his durability just goes up if he goes big bang is super arbitrary

 

[Deagonx]

<snip>

Fully agree with these assessments and this effectively underscores my overall impression of the post. There are a lot of nothing-burgers in the OP, and each one undermines the credibility of the CRT. Adding all of these super vague or unverifiable statements makes the discussion a huge slog. Preferably it should've been formatted to emphasize the most clear and strong pieces of evidence so that a more manageable debate could take place.

 

[Antvasima]

https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343

https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-superman-universal-feats-discussion-continuation.147384

Current/Former Staff Agrees/Disagrees Vote Tally for Specific Feats​

The following Staff have either given blanket agrees or limited verifications: @KLOL506 @Planck69 @Maverick_Zero_X, @Qawsedf234 (Green Lantern - High 3A, Tier 2, Flash Tier 2, WW Tier 2, New Gods Tier 2), @Matthew_Schroeder (Superman Tier 2)

Please notify us if you wish to revise or add any feat verifications below.

I added "Somewhat" for replies that use a non-commital "I guess" with a link to the original post.

I have updated some of my verifications.

Post Crisis​

Others​

• Infinite Man has the energies of space and time(Superboy and the Legion of Super-Heroes Vol. 1 #233, November 1977)
  • Qawsedf234: Somewhat Agree -
    https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5367187
  • Firestorm808: Unsure - Use as secondary support
• Infinite Man is as powerful as Darkseid(Legion of Super-Heroes Vol. 3 #18, January 1986)
  • Firestorm808: Agree
• Infinite Man stalemated the Time Trapper(Legion of Super-Heroes Vol. 3 #50, September 1988)
  • Firestorm808: Agree
• Shazam and Lobo's fight rock the cosmos. (Captain Atom #57, September 1991)
  • Qawsedf234: Disagree -
    https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5367187
  • Firestorm808: Disagree - More context needed
• While fighting a serious Captain Atom, Hank Hall Monarch twisted space and time, destroying Universes within atoms(Armageddon 2001 Vol. 1 #2, October 1991)
  • Qawsedf234: Somewhat Agree -
    https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5367187
  • Firestorm808: Agree
• Infinite-Man's power can sculpt space-time, could destroy the Universe, including the timestream(Legionnaires Vol. 1 #18, September 1994)
  • Qawsedf234: Somewhat Agree -
    https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5367187
  • Firestorm808: Agree
• Hank Hall Monarch is comparable to Despero and Dreamslayer(Justice League America Vol. 1 #87, April 1994)
  • Firestorm808: Agree
  • the latter being a rival to Darkseid(Justice League America Vol. 1 #88, May 1994)
    • Firestorm808: Agree
• Extant defeats Kent Nelson Doctor Fate(Zero Hour: Crisis in Time Vol. 1 #3, September 1994)
  • Firestorm808: Agree
• Hourman has Infinite Power(Secret Origins of Super-Villains 80-Page Giant, December 1999)
  • LordTracer: Agree - https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5378069
  • Maverick_Zero_X: Somewhat Agree - https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5378040
  • Qawsedf234: Disagree - https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5367187 | https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5367484
  • Firestorm808: Unsure - Use as secondary support
• Black Adam tanks lightning from and staggers Hector Hall Doctor Fate(JSA Vol. 1 #6, January 2000)
  • Firestorm808: Unsure - Do the automatic Helmet defenses scale to his base stats
• Starbreaker has laid waste to Galactic Clusters(Adam Strange Vol. 2 #7, May 2005)
  • Qawsedf234: Disagree -
    https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5367187
  • Firestorm808: Disagree - Laid Waste is not total destruction
• Starbreaker overpowered the person who merged Universes(Justice League of America Vol. 2 #34, August 2009)
  • Qawsedf234: Disagree - https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5367768
  • Firestorm808: Disagree - Per Dharma, he is not physically holding these universes together. Through his will, he is using the Rift power to merge the universes together.
• Characters with Infinite Man's power had Infinite Power(Legionnaires Vol. 1 #18, September, 1994),
  • as was stated many times (Valor Vol. 1 #23, September 1994)
  • Qawsedf234: Somewhat Agree -
    https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5367187
  • Firestorm808: Unsure - Use as secondary support

Gods​

Qawsedf234: Agree - The ratings are fine, but remember that they're in the 4th world in their true form. Such a scale is meaningless for cross-scaling. | https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5367187

• Dreggs have the power of a Universe(New Gods Vol. 3 #26, May 1991)
  • Darkseid could've destroyed Dreggs if they weren't already dead (New Gods Vol 3 #6, July 1989)
  • Firestorm808: Agree, but there is a difference between the lifeless Old Gods (the ones Darkseid curb stomps) and those that got their life back.
• Random Gods of New Genesis are capable of creating universes. (Mister Miracle Vol. 3 #1, April 1996)
  • Firestorm808: Unsure - More context is needed. MM is about to become a new god, the alleged nexus of positive energy in the universe, but the other New Gods are supposedly making universes? Was there more than one universe at this time?
• Orion's Astro-Force is considered capable of stopping what can annihilate the cosmos(Jack Kirby's Fourth World Vol. 1 #4, June 1997)
  • Firestorm808: Agree
• Orion has control over the Fundamental Forces of the Universe(JLA Vol. 1 #41, May 2000)
  • Firestorm808: Unsure - Use as secondary support
• Darkseid tanks a bomb that rips apart existence. (Action Comics Vol. 1 Annual #13, February 2011)
  • Firestorm808: Unsure | Hax or AP?

Wonder Woman​

• Wonder Woman withstands and deflects a fireball with infinite power. (Wonder Woman Vol. 2 #21, October 1988)
  • LordTracer: Agree | https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5367204
  • Qawsedf234: Somewhat Agree -
    https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5367472
  • Firestorm808: Unsure - Is this hax? Per the comic, WW's bracelets are the key, part of Zeus's Aegis, which came from the Amaltheia beast. At the Gods' direction, the Amazons begin to pray, Menalippe converting these prayers into raw energy for the Gods. As one, the empowered Gods launch a bolt of divine might at Diana, who deflects, transforms, and amplifies it with her bracelets using the Amaltheia properties. Diana used her bracelet's hax to deflect the attack of the enhanced gods. She never felt the initial potential bast force or the final amplified blast force.
• Wonder Woman has survived lightspeed attacks from Zoom (Wonder Woman Vol. 2 #214, May 2005), with lightspeed in DC being Infinite Mass(JLA Vol. 1. #3, March 1997)
  • Qawsedf234: Somewhat Agree - If High 3-A lightspeed punches are accepted | https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5367187
  • Firestorm808: Unsure
    • The most recent precedent at the time regarding punching at light speed is with the force of a white dwarf. Per Flash, he’s never used this level of force before. | The Flash Vol 2 #148, May 1999
      • Flash didn't hit with infinite mass back in 1997
    • Can we say that something hit with the relativistic force of infinite mass if there aren't any signs or environmental effects in this era?
    • Later the environmental effects of speedsters traveling at true lightspeed lead to a singularity are established. Final Crisis: Legion of 3 Worlds Vol 1 #3 April 2009
• A battle between Diana and Cassie makes it seem like the energies of the Universe are erupting and will tear the foundations of reality(Wonder Woman Vol. 2 #156, May 2000)
  • Firestorm808: Somewhat Disagree - That's not Diana or Cassie. That was Amazon Artemis and Devas. Not sure how she got a Godwave sword or if her durability scales to it. Deva did defeat Artemis rather easily.
• Wonder Woman has defeated Circe, with Circe only going as far as to call Diana her equal(Wonder Woman Vol. 2 #176, January 2002)
  • Qawsedf234: Agree | https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5367187
  • Firestrom808: Agree
  • Circe was consistently stated to be an urgent threat to the entire Universe(War of the Gods Vol. 1 #4, December 1991)
  • with it later being stated she nearly destroyed the Universe(Wonder Woman Vol. 2 #62, February 1992)
    • LordTracer: Agree | https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5368126
    • Firestrom808: Disagree - It wasn't the spell that would directly threaten the universe. It was directly aimed to kill Queen Hypolita, who was trying to revive Diana. This, in turn, would change the course of the War and threaten the universe. It just ended up killing a follower instead. Circe nearly destroyed the universe through her manipulations, not pure power.

Superman​

• Superman could have stopped Hank Hall Monarch. (Adventures of Superman Annual #3, October 1991)
  • Qawsedf234: Somewhat Agree - https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-co...s-discussion-continuation.147384/post-5368861
  • Firestorm808: Unsure - Is the comic implying that Superman would have solo'd him or that he would have teamed up with the others again?
• Superman is implied to be capable of defeating Extant, who is stronger than Hank Hall Monarch. (Zero Hour: Crisis in Time #1, September 1994)
  • Triumph, who one shot Hourman(JLA Vol. 1 #29, May 1999)
    • could only contend with Superman after siphoning his Solar Energy (JLA Vol. 1 #31, July 1999)
  • Extant had an edge over Hourman(JSA Vol. 1 #13 August, 2000).
  • Firestorm808: Unsure - Not concrete, but we'll use it as secondary support.
  • Qawsedf234: Disagree - https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-co...s-discussion-continuation.147384/post-5368861
• Superman, Captain Atom, Darkstar and the Ray contribute to the energy of a Big Bang. (Zero Hour: Crisis in Time #0, September 1994)
  • LordTracer: Agree
  • Qawsedf234: Disagree -
    https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5367187
  • Firestorm808: Unsure - Superman worked with Captain Atom, Darkstar, the Ray, Spectre, Waverider, and Damage.
• Superman survives Aztek's self destruction of 4th Dimensional energy(JLA Vol. 1 #41, May 2000)
  • Aztek's energy had previously been described as Limitless 4th Dimensional energy (JLA Vol 1 #10 September, 1997)
  • Qawsedf234: Disagree | https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5367187
  • Firestorm808: Unsure - Does Aztek have any feats or scaling to support this implied level of power? Per the Tiering FAQ and the use of "higher dimensional" stuff, we need some context regarding how 4D is applied here.
• Superman and Steel move a tesseract(Superman: The Man of Steel Vol. 1 #100, May 2000)
  • This tesseract was described as infinite space within finite space (Superman: The Man of Steel Vol. 1 #99, April 2000), and is said to have Infinite space within (Superman Secret Files Vol. 1 #1, June 2000)
  • Firestorm808: Disagree - I don't think there is justification for the object to have infinite mass.
  • Qawsedf234: Disagree -
    https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5367187
  • Eficiente: Disagree - https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5379269
• Superman survives the collapse of the universe. (Superman: Where Is Thy Sting, 2001)
  • Death implies that WITS really happened. (Superman: Where Is Thy Sting, 2001)
  • Lois references WITS in Rebirth. (Action Comics Vol. 1 #1030, June 2021)
  • Qawsedf234: Disagree -
    https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-superman-universal-feats-discussion-continuation.147384/post-5375848
  • Firestorm808: Disagree - https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-co...s-discussion-continuation.147384/post-5374004
    • Per the comic panels, the cosmos is going through entropy. Dead stars collapsing inward, their energy sputtering and fading. All things, all matter in creation, dissolving, disintegrating. Stars wink out one by one. In the end, only the black hole from the last star is left with Superman, each nuclear flash weaker than the one before.
    • According to other Staff, surviving the heat death of the universe is a hax feat rather than durability.
    • The point is that Heat Death in general isn't treated as a Tier 3 feat. In the case of Superman, he was with the last black hole from the last star. It's not infinite mass. All other stars have already gone through their black hole phase and faded away to nothingness. Being in the black hole would just be rated Tier 4 AFAIK.
• Universal senses - Superman is able to tell that the entire Universe and Creation is in its dying stages. (Superman: Where Is Thy Sting, 2001)
  • LordTracer: Agree - https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-co...s-discussion-continuation.147384/post-5375841
  • Qawsedf234: Disgree - https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-co...s-discussion-continuation.147384/post-5375848
  • Firestorm808: Disagree - https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-co...s-discussion-continuation.147384/post-5375824
• Child Brainiac gained the power of an infinite space Tesseract and Superman and Ultraman are capable of taking attacks from him. (Adventures of Superman Vol. 1 #605, August 2002)
  • Qawsedf234: Somewhat Agree - https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5367187
  • Eficiente: Disagree - https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5379269
  • Firestorm808: Unsure - Brainiac has these High 3-A levels of energy. If all his attacks were High 3-A, wouldn't it have run out after the first few shots? It's a question of Energy Capacity VS Energy Output.
• Superman fights and takes hits from the Entropy Aegis while explicitly stated to be holding back. (Superman: The Man of Steel #134, March 2003). The Entropy Aegis is stated to be the power to remake and destroy the universe. (Superman Versus Darkseid: Apokolips Now, March 2003)
  • Qawsedf234: Disagree -
    https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5367187
  • Firestorm808: Disagree - The way the Aegis and Imperiex work doesn't allow it to scale to people normally. Imerpiex's Tier 2 is a Chain Reaction Self Destruct.
• Superman overpowers Nebula Man, who is stated to be a universe. (JLA Classified #2, March 2005)
  • Nebula Man is confirmed to be a universe. (Seven Soldiers: Frankenstein #4, May 2006)
  • LordTracer: Agree
  • Qawsedf234: Disagree -
    https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5367187
  • Firestorm808: Disagree - Because you have to shrink to get into an infinitesimally small universe, I wouldn't count it as Tier 3 in comparison to the standard universe.
• Superman's clash with his Golden Age counterpart shattered the boundaries of Space-Time and changed timelines(Superman Vol. 2 #226, April 2006, Action Comics Vol. 1 #836, April 2006, Adventures of Superman Vol. 1 #649, April 2006)
  • Qawsedf234: Agree -
    https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5367187
  • Firestorm808: Unsure
• Captain Atom is sent flying by someone he compares to an out of control Superman, and believes he'd need all his power to defeat her(Captain Atom: Armageddon Vol. 1 #7, June 2006)
  • Qawsedf234: Unsure | https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5367472
  • Firestorm808: Agree
• Superman staggered the Red King, made him yell in pain, and survived an attack from him while weakened (JLA Classified Vol. 1 #35, April 2007), and was confident he could fight the Red King for an extended period of time(JLA Classified Vol. 1 #36, May 2007)
  • The Red King destroyed realities (JLA Classified Vol. 1 #35, April 2007) multipletimes, with these realities containing multiple Universes (JLA Classified Vol. 1 #36, May 2007)
  • Qawsedf234: Disagree -
    https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5367472
  • Firestorm808: Unsure
• Supergirl and Superman tank attacks from Blackstarr, who has power over the energy of the cosmos. (Action Comics Vol. 1 #850, July 2007)
  • Firestorm808: Disagree - More context is needed.
  • Qawsedf234: Disagree - https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-co...s-discussion-continuation.147384/post-5368861
• Supergirl tanks hits from Reactron and easily overpowers him(Supergirl Vol. 5 #25, March 2008)
  • Qawsedf234: Disagree - https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5367187
  • and later tanks a stray blast from his fight with Superman. Reactron is stated to have the power of a thousand galaxiesin his hands. (Supergirl Vol. 5 #26, April 2008)
    • Qawsedf234: Disagree -
      https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5367187
• Superboy is able to damage Superboy-Prime(Final Crisis: Legion of Three Worlds Vol. 1 #4, June 2009)
  • Firestorm808: Agree
  • Qawsedf234: Unsure - https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-co...s-discussion-continuation.147384/post-5368861
• Superman tanks a blast from Mordru and harms him. (Final Crisis: Legion of Three Worlds Vol. 1 #4, June 2009)
  • Qawsedf234: Unsure -
    https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5367187
  • Firestorm808: Somewhat Agree
• Superman briefly fights Time Trapper Superman-Prime. (Final Crisis: Legion of Three Worlds Vol. 1 #4, June 2009)
  • Qawsedf234: Somewhat Agree - https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5367187
  • Firestorm808: Somewhat Agree
• Superman trades blows with Time Trapper Superman-Prime, but is overpowered. (Final Crisis: Legion of Three Worlds #5, September 2009)
  • Qawsedf234: Somewhat Agree - https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5367187
  • Firestorm808: Somewhat Agree

Lanterns​

• Flodo encompasses and destroys an evil Galaxy(Green Lantern Corps Vol. 1 #219, December 1987)
  • Qawsedf234: Disagree - https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5368718
  • Firestorm808: Disagree - https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5366716
• The GLC Central Battery can become as large as and destroy the entire Universe(Green Lantern Corps Vol. 1 #224, May 1988)
  • Context: The yellow impurity was seizing control of the battery, so now it’s reclaiming all the green energy, pulling it back into itself in order to keep that impurity contained. Soon, the Central Power Battery will siphon all of the green energy back into itself. It will go on to overload, causing a massive power buildup. This will, in turn, trigger an explosion, transforming OA itself into an immense black hole, large enough to draw the entire universe into it.
  • Firestorm808: Agree - With this context, it means that the total Green Energy within its siphoning range for overload and buildup is enough to destroy the universe
• Hal Jordan has survived attacks from Sinestro possessing the Central Battery(Green Lantern Corps Vol. 1 #224, May 1988)
  • Context: 11 Guardians give Hal power for his task. Ganthet is revitalized by entering the lantern. A Snake construct drains a significant amount of Hal's energy. Sinestro's mind takes over the core of the CPB. Hal is restrained by Sinestro. Sinestro absorbs Hal's remaining power before he starts slowly killing him. Ganthet is revitalized by entering the lantern. Ganthet bestows a portion of his power to Hal. The revitalized Hal is still unable to fight Sinestro directly, but still taking energy blasts. So, Hal removes the Yellow impurity from the core to weaken and remove Sinestro.
  • Firestorm808: Unsure - I'm unsure if we can scale Hal from this because of a lot of Guardian meddling. To my knowledge, it didn't collect all the energy yet, so I'm unsure how to rate this quantity. Scaling the Guardians seems fine.
• Hal's ring is a conduit to Infinity(Green Lantern Vol. 3 #1, June 1990)
  • Eficiente: Disagree - https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5379269
  • Firestorm808: Unsure - Use as secondary support
• Ganthet creates a construct to shield himself from the Big Bang(Green Lantern: Ganthet's Tale, November 1992)
  • Context: Krona created a time viewer to see the beginning of the universe. A searing bolt of cosmic force shattered Krona's great machine and damaged his lab. Ganthet also constructs a time viewer to see the beginning as well. Gantehet experienced the same explosive result.
  • Firestorm808: Disagree - Neither Krona nor Ganthet actually experienced the force of the big bang, just their time viewer shattering. Otherwise, the entire planet would have blown up from the big bang.
• Hal Jordan temporarily making a city (Green Lantern Vol 3 #48, January 1994)
  • Firestorm808: His city construct ended because the "ring's charge is gone" because of the time limit. Nothing is related to complexity.
• Kyle Rayner survives being blown away by the Zero Hour Big Bang(Zero Hour: Crisis in Time #0, September 1994)
  • Context: Green Lantern Vol 3 #0, October 1994 - Following Zero Hour, Parallax Hal and Kyle are in a tunnel. Parallax Hal explains: They were outside of time when the universe was being recreated. Waverider created a rift to re-enter reality at the precise moment or be lost forever. Most of Hal's power was gone. He linked with Waverider's rift and formed a vortex to bring himself back to Oa. Kyle was drawn along.
  • Firestorm808: Disagree - It got retconned as to how they survived. They didn't actually take the force of the blast and be lost forever.
• Guardians are being compared in power to individual central power batteries(Doomsday Annual, December 1995).
  • Firestorm808: Somewhat Agree
• Kyle Rayner is also stated to have a world with no end inside his ring(Green Lantern Vol. 3 #80, November 1996)
  • Firestorm808: Unsure - The scan says battery, not his ring.
• Kyle says Guardians and Controllers have Big Bang level power(Justice League: A Midsummer's Nightmare Vol. 1 #3, November 1996)
  • Firestorm808: Agree
• Kyle Rayner and Anarky reverse the warping of the universe. (Anarky Vol. 2 #3, July 1999)
  • Firestorm808: Unsure - I would consider the Planck stuff more limited Law Manipulation or Reality Warping than something AP. I can see the future Abberation being Tier 2, but what should we rate the small aberration within the initial sphere?
• Alan Scott's Starheart fragment self-destructing can destroy a Solar System (JSA Vol 1 #19 February 2001)
  • Firestorm808: I don't think we have justification for AP vs DC in this scenario. It's a raw explosion of energy of all the energy inside of him, not a focused attack. The explosion is his body's limit.
  • Qawsedf234: "I don't see why you focusing hard means you scale to something that kills you when doing it." | https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-co...s-discussion-continuation.147385/post-5375863
• Hal Jordan created Willworld, an entire Universe inside his ring that's described as an Infinite Sea(Green Lantern: Willworld, July 2001)
  • Ring Worlds are said to be something in all Lantern's rings (Green Lantern: Willworld, July 2001)
  • Eficiente: Disagree - https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5379269
  • Firestorm808: Disagree - Not in the Ring, in the CPB | https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-co...s-discussion-continuation.147385/post-5374034
• Ion could remake the Universe(Green Lantern Vol. 3 #145, February 2002)
  • Firestorm808: Agree - Use as secondary support
• Nero with Ion's power also had the power of the Universe(Green Lantern Vol. 3 #145, February 2002)
  • Firestorm808: Unsure - Use as secondary support
  • Eficiente: Disagree - https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5379269
• Ion has Infinite Power(Green Lantern Vol. 3 #146, March 2002)
  • Firestorm808: Unsure - Use as secondary support
  • Eficiente: Disagree - https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5379269
• Mogo is also said to have Limitless Power(Green Lantern Vol. 3 #159, April 2003)
  • Eficiente: Disagree - https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5379269
  • Firestorm808: Unsure - Use as secondary support
• John Stewart reaches his ring's limit when trying to recreate the Xanshi Star system.(Green Lantern Vol 4 #26 February 2008)
  • Firestorm808: John's ring said nothing about the complexity of structures. "Warning: Willpower exceeding Power Ring Capabilities." From that warning, his Ring can't go past the current energy output of willpower to maintain the structure.
• Hal escapes (Crispus Allen) Black Lantern Spectre's grasp and knocks out Black Lantern Crispus Allen’s jaw(Green Lantern Vol 4 #50 March 2010)
  • Firestorm808: Somewhat Agree - I can see BLCA being stronger that Atrocitus
• Arc
  • The Guardians believed Kyle Rayner could kill Alan Scott possessed by the Meteor Starheart, (Justice League of America Vol. 2 #47, September 2010)
    • Firestorm808: Agree |
      https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-green-lantern-universal-feats-discussion-continuation.147385/post-5374322
  • Kyle fought an Obsidian/Jade mergewhile gradually losing power (Justice League of America Vol. 2 #48, October 2010),
    • Firestorm808: Agree |
      https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-green-lantern-universal-feats-discussion-continuation.147385/post-5374322
    • both the halves of the light and dark of the Starheart(Justice Society of America Vol. 3 #42, October 2010),
      • Firestorm808: Disagree | This form doesn't scale to the Full Starheart |
        https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-green-lantern-universal-feats-discussion-continuation.147385/post-5374322
    • The Starheart can obliterate reality (DC Comics Official Website)
      • Firestorm808: Disgree | Using this summary isn't directly related to the actual plot of the Starheart. |
        https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-green-lantern-universal-feats-discussion-continuation.147385/post-5374322
• Hal kills Krona with a blast through the chest (Green Lantern Vol 4 #67 August 2011)
  • Krona takes Atrocitus' Napalm breath and bite to his neck. (Green Lantern Vol 4 #62 March 2011)
  • Atrocitus peak scales to the Butcher (Green Lantern Vol 4 #61 February 2011)
    • Butcher James Kim is able to severely damage CA Spectre
    • Atrocitus’s spear construct pierces Butcher James Kim
    • Atrocitus was confident to chain the Butcher
• The Human Lanterns were able to fight Guardians with the powers of the Emotional Entities(Green Lantern Vol. 4 #67, August 2011), with Entity-level scaling overall being consistent
  • Firestorm808: Unsure - They say that the Possessed Guardians are impervious to their ring. If we saw them facing a different possessed being and did sizeable damage like Atrocitus, I would be more willing to agree.
  • Eficiente: Unsure - https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5379269

Rebirth​

Flash​

Qawsedf234: Somewhat Agree | https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5367187

• Barry Allen and Godspeed survived attacks from an amped Paradox, who was destroying the timestream(The Flash Vol. 1 #756, August 2020)
  • Firestorm808: Agree - Seems fine.
• Mr Terrific, who was certain Wally had Infinite and Incalculable power, isn't certain he's more powerful than Superman, implying he considers Superman to also have Infinite Power (The Flash (Rebirth) #775, October 2021)
  • Firestorm808: Somewhat Agree
  • Eficiente: Somewhat Disagree - https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5379269

Superman​

• Superman states he could make the entire Phantom Zone cease to exist if he really put his head to it. (Superman Vol 5 #5 January 2019) and Superman shakes the Phantom Zone with one punch(Superman (2018) (Rebirth) #6, February 2019)
  • The Phantom Zone is an anti-Universe (Action Comics Vol. 2 #11, September 2012)
  • The Phantom Zone has been called Infinite (JLA Vol. 1 #36 December, 1999)
  • Qawsedf234: Agree - https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5367187 | https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-co...s-discussion-continuation.147384/post-5371320
  • Eficiente: Unsure - https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5379269
  • Firestorm808: Somewhat Agree
• Superman punches out Barbatos(Dark Nights: Death Metal Trinity Crisis, November 2020)
  • Qawsedf234: Somewhat Agree - https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5367187
  • Firestorm808: Agree
• Superman one-shot Auteur.io(Batman/Superman Vol. 2 #21, October 2021)
  • Auteur.io created the Archive of Worlds, an archive of realities (Batman/Superman Vol. #19, August 2021),
  • and could destroy them if he didn't like them (Batman/Superman Vol. 2 #17, June 2021)
  • Qawsedf234: Somewhat Agree -
    https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5367187
  • Firestorm808: Unsure - Not knowledgeable on recent cosmic stuff.
• Superman separates two worlds(Batman/Superman Vol. 2 #21, October 2021)
  • These worlds are represented as tapes, the literal fabric of reality (Batman/Superman Vol. 2 #17, June 2021),
  • and each strip is a different reality (Batman/Superman Vol. 2 #20, September 2021)
  • Firestorm808: Unsure - Do you need to be a certain strength to affect the film?
• Supergirl survived a barrage that could've brought down Galaxies(Supergirl: Woman of Tomorrow Vol. 1 #7, March 2022)
  • Qawsedf234: Disagree -
    https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5367187
  • Firestorm808: Disagree - The attacks depicted do not correlate to bringing down galaxies all at once

Lanterns​

• Hal Jordan sent tremors across the entire Emotional Spectrum(Hal Jordan and the Green Lantern Corps, September 2016),
  • Firestorm808: Unsure - While I agree that Hal sent tremors through the Spectrum, nothing suggests the effect went past his current universe.
  • Qawsedf234: Limited to Range of effect | https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-co...s-discussion-continuation.147385/post-5377728
• Orion's battle with an Nth Metal Golem destroys a Star System. (Hal Jordan and the Green Lantern Corps Vol 1 #26, October 2017)
  • Firestorm808: Disagree - It wasn't the shockwaves of exchanged attacks. From the scans, it was the Golem that released an energy burst that destroyed the star system and injured Orion.
• Hal also believes he could defeat Dawnbreaker (Dark Multiverse Lantern Batman) who defeated the Guardians(Hal Jordan and the Green Lantern Corps Vol. 1 #32, January 2018)
  • Firestorm808: Agree - Part of his Rebirth Pure Will Ring Boost
• Human Lanterns fought and overpowered the Controllers before being mind-controlled(Hal Jordan and the Green Lantern Corps Vol. 1 #36, March 2018).
  • Firestorm808: Somewhat Agree - I'm assuming that Controllers are still comparable to the standard Guardian by this time.
• Hal Jordan stops a bomb that could affect all matter in the Universe and destroy it(The Green Lantern Vol. 1 #6, June 2019)
  • Context: The U-Bomb's detonation would cause all matter in the universe to bind to a compressed quark core.
  • "We're divering all the power you need from the central battery reserves. Disarm the U-Bomb!"
  • "All we know is this -- prior to his disappearance, an energy output was recorded equivalent to ten-to-the-44th-power joules."
  • The Green Lantern Vol 1 #7 July 2019
    • Using the Central Power Battery, Hal stops the detonation, is shot into deep space, and is miniaturized into his ring.
    • "There was a U-Bomb. I had to disarm it. Guardians diverted the entire output of the Central Battery through my power ring--shot us into deep space-- enough energy to kill me, but the ring-- the ting would to anything to keep me alive--
  • Firestorm808: Unsure - Do we take the context as the Central Power Battery is the limit of his power channeling in this case? Did Hal not have the energy at the time to perform the task on his own?
• Hal Jordan having a Universe inside his ring was brought back up in Rebirth(The Green Lantern Vol. 1 #7, July 2019)
  • Firestorm808: Disagree - Regarding the universe inside the ring, it's a micro-verse as reverse miniaturization is used to get people out of it, so I don't think this qualifies as Tier 3. Ring Worlds are different than Battery Worlds
  • Qawsedf234: Disagree - https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-co...s-discussion-continuation.147385/post-5375863 | https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-co...s-discussion-continuation.147385/post-5375880

Thank you very much for helping out. I personally trust the thorough evaluations of Qawsedf234, Firestorm808, Eficiente, and Deagonx, so it seems like a lot of feats in the opening post of this thread should get strikethroughs or rejected stamps at this point, so we can continue to discuss the more reliable ones.

 

[Antvasima]

Fully agree with these assessments and this effectively underscores my overall impression of the post. There are a lot of nothing-burgers in the OP, and each one undermines the credibility of the CRT. Adding all of these super vague or unverifiable statements makes the discussion a huge slog. Preferably it should've been formatted to emphasize the most clear and strong pieces of evidence so that a more manageable debate could take place.

Agreed. See my last preceding post above.

 

[Vasco]

• Child Brainiac gained the power of an infinite space Tesseract and Superman and Ultraman are capable of taking attacks from him. (Adventures of Superman Vol. 1 #605, August 2002)

Having a power source=/=being able to attack with his full power per blow unless proven, otherwise 1 attack would dry the Tesseract from all that infinite energy I assume it has, and it is an assumption, the thing having infinite space =/= it having infinite energy for CB to take, necessarily.

Though I'm not also convinced but I'd remind you half of infinity is still infinity, he dosen't need to empty his power source for 1 attack if it's infinite plus that goes against the infinite energy also if it can go empty, CB said he can take control of the energy and use it how he likes.
I'm also iffy on this.

• Superman shakes the Phantom Zone with one punch(Superman (2018) (Rebirth) #6, February 2019)
  • The Phantom Zone is an anti-Universe (Action Comics Vol. 2 #11, September 2012) and has been called Infinite (JLA Vol. 1 #36 December, 1999)

It wasn't called "Infinite" but "unregion of infinitely compressed space" by a character that talks odd. Idk what "unregion" means, I think she means region, as in the PZ being limited, but more significantly she is clearly being hyperbolic on how compressed the PZ is in size, and calling a universe infinite is a common hyperbole, so the feat would only be shaking a universe at best.

The shaking also likely refers to the earthquakes in the distance, which would intuitively be the area around rather than every area of the anti-universe that could have earthquakes. Also also, it wasn't due to a punch, the punch happened, then more fighting was happening, and among it the fear happened. It was by the fight in general rather than that 1 punch seen the page before.

Isn't a Phantom Zone/Underworld a realm in the sphere of gods? That alone makes it bigger than universes.

Most of the Phantom zone is nothingness but you're right it wasn't due to s single punch but rather the fight between him and Zaar plus Superman later states he can destroy the dimension.

This is meaningless due to their size contained in a smaller space. Even then, it would be a Creation feat.

I also disagreed more like Pocket Reality Manipulation.

• Ion has Infinite Power (Green Lantern Vol. 3 #146, March 2002)

This is just a casual conversation, it can't possibly be used.

It's possible, since Ion a cosmic force that's connected to the infinite multiverse as it's will itself of the DC multiverse.
And we know what lanterns have done with this will.

• Nero with Ion's power also had the power of the Universe (Green Lantern Vol. 3 #145, February 2002)

Power with relation of the universe=/=High 3-A.

Further proof or supprting evidence ion indeed has infinite power, "The power of the Universe flowing through me" statement made just by having Ion's power.

 

[Deagonx]

Though I'm not also convinced but I'd remind you half of infinity is still infinity

Sure, but infinity doesn't need to be thought of exclusively in fractions. If you have infinite grains of sand and remove 10 of them, 10 is still a finite number. The fact is that you can pull finite amounts from infinity.

Isn't a Phantom Zone/Underworld a realm in the sphere of gods? That alone makes it bigger than universes.

Realms in the sphere aren't necessarily greater than universes. The Sphere is a broad category of a variety of different unrelated realms, not all of these realms are the same in quality or in their relationship to the Orrery.

 

[Eficiente]

• Wonder Woman withstands and deflects a fireball with infinite power. (Wonder Woman Vol. 2 #21, October 1988)

I could tell from those scans that the feat was taken out of context and read the comic. The gods live on Mount Olympus and need to move on from there, doing so is a classic comicbook cosmic event that follows its own made up rules; They need to destroy Olympus first, so they harness "the greatest power in all Olympus", prayers from the only people that believe on them, put it along "the amassed strength of the entire pantheon (of gods)" and use all that to shoot the fireball at Diana, whose pointed out to be helped by the protective power of her bracelets, that they were part of Zeus' mightly aegis itself, that the impenetrable shield formed from the hide of the great goat Amaltheia, who wet-nursed the infant Zeus & this provided the energy from which Olympus sprung, that it has the power of the aegis, that Amaltheia's power formed the corner stone of Olympus and her power will destroy it. Diana will charge a cosmic force, the accumulated energies of the gods intensified by Amazon prayer, and deflect it with her bracelets, the "fireball" will receive Amaltheaia's kiss (touch the bracelets) and be transformed into a burst more awesome than before. (Note!: Amalthea is the foster-motehr of Zeus, "Aegis" is a device carried by Athena and Zeus, the modern concept of doing something "under someone's aegis" means doing something under the protection of a powerful, knowledgeable, or benevolent source. One of its meanings is "The shield of a deity", which is pretty objectively its use here)

So,

• The "fireball" has the accumulated power of all the gods in that comic (all of them minus Ares) intensified by prayers, which itself is a greater power than any one god that lives in Olympus. Note that even 1 god is more powerful than WW.
• WW did this solely due to their bracelets, her bracelets scale, not her at all. Even then she was pretty overwhelmed by doing this.
  • WW has the ability to amp cosmic/godly energies deflected by her bracelets, so very situational Stats Amp for her.
• Whoever submitted this feat sounds like such a fraud. To anyone with less experience in Vs Debates I say this in terms of results shown, not intentionality, never intentionality, nobody is ever doing to "do things wrong on purpose" in their own word, let alone admit it. At worst they do things wrong while lacking the care to improve upon the flaws that led to that, so they consistency keep on doing things wrong in the future, and if an OP thing they propose fails then it doesn't matter the reasoning behind why it's wrong so much as the fact that it was rejected currently, some other OP thing may be proposed tomorrow, it's fun. I say this in the hopes that it may positively help should anything close to this be recognized by anyone, as this worst case scenario is to be avoided or grow out of, but if you don't personally believe it applies then great for you, but that's that.

Wonder Woman has survived lightspeed attacks from Zoom (Wonder Woman Vol. 2 #214, May 2005), with lightspeed in DC being Infinite Mass (JLA Vol. 1. #3, March 1997)

I have rejected that scan in the past, Flash's body mass incresing towards infinity doesn't mean he has infinite mass as in High 3-A, but that he has an ever-incresing mass the more he reaches lightspeed, with no limit to it. He didn't reach infinity as in High 3-A, the scan doesn't say that. The rules for this are variable anyway, a Speedster going at lightspeed can also make them have enough mass to destroy themselves uncontrollably as they become a singularity (See here the last feat in AP and Note 2)

• Dreggs have the power of a Universe(New Gods Vol. 3 #26, May 1991)

Power with relation of the universe=/=High 3-A. This is completely unpresentable and it shows a massive lack of standards, it's wrong, not .

• Superman, Captain Atom, Darkstar and the Ray contribute to the energy of a Big Bang. (Zero Hour: Crisis in Time #0, September 1994)

This is such anti-feat for Low 2-C. If any one of them was Low 2-C, one quick attack would do it, yet they have have to continually shoot for a long time, not only is this something they can't do alone, but even if it was 1 character doing this the fact that it's over some time means their every regular blow would be lower than this & thus wouldn't scale. There is a small, actually dumb logic tangle to this; "Low 2-C divided is still Low 2-C, so the fractions of it shown don't matter", right? Wrong, it's wanting to have your cake and eat it, under that own (correct) logic the fact that 1 character alone couldn't do it means 1 alone isn't Low 2-C, as they should be as that stat can't be divided, making it mean that their combined attacks being channeled by someone that controls energy has it greater than the individual sum of its parts, because again, 1 Low 2-C attack alone would do it otherwise. Same with the time it took them to charge this, if their every punch, kick, energy blast, etc. at their peak was Low 2-C then 1 quick blast would do it, as since it has to be continuous for some time that means what can be acquired doing that is greater than their every punch, kick, energy blast, etc. at their peak. "Low 2-C can't be divided" is used as a tool, what serves of it is used, and what contradicts things is literally inconceivable, that is being disingenuous.

The Spectre is the one that fills what they were accumulating into what turned into a new universe anyway, I don't think I need to say what this means.

• Infinite-Man's power can sculpt space-time, could destroy the Universe, including the timestream (Legionnaires Vol. 1 #18, September 1994), and has the energies of space and time (Superboy and the Legion of Super-Heroes Vol. 1 #233, November 1977)

Sculpt space-time are abilities, I know it's there "for context", but it shouldn't, as no profile's AP would say that. Similar with having "the energies of space and time".

I went to see the comic for context, after all "We thought we could find answers about our past in the past-- --and gave no thought to how badly the timescream was damaged before we took a deep plunse!" clearly implies the timescream was damaged beforehand and that what they do is otherwise inoffensive thing that's only causing issues due to that damage the timescream already had, and what I found was laughable. Legit the first scan; "The thirtieth century is crumbling. Each new second brings with another paradox... Each heartbeat, another contradiction in chronal continuity. Heroes thought long dead reappear without warning...while champions cherished as vital and alive vanish just as suddenly... ...and with each such entrance and exist the temporal fabric that knits the universe frays chllingly further." The timescream was already pretty f*cked up, Infinite-Man's power was a push further that would destroy it. This is following DC's rules on paradoxes and contradictions in a timeline that on their own damage a timeline, not AP.

That same first scan also says that Infinite-Man's power "might have contained the carnage", which means he might have been able to fix the paradoxes and contradictions talked about in that page, which is unqualifiable as they don't destroy the timeline or universe on its own, it's those 2 villains further f*cking things up that would cause that, and it's Space-Time hax anyway that fixes some things here and there that aren't meant to be a certain way (People being in points in time where they're not meant to, use Space-Time hax to fix that is pretty worthless).

I'll go over the rest soon.