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DC Comics - Superman Universal Feats Discussion (Continuation)

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I'm just following the guidelines on statements. If it was the "omniscient narrator," I wouldn't have any issues. In this case, we have Superman narrating the event. With that in mind, how reliable is Superman's statement that everything shook?

Can we take this at face value and say that his senses are also universal in range too?
 
If the other staff determined that this is a reliable self-narration, then I can agree with them.
 
If he didn't later claim to be able to destroy it, I would also default to it being more hyperbolic/flowery.
Thank you for reminding me of that. It would have been helpful to keep those two statements together for support.

@Emirp sumitpo Can you please add the supplementary statement for the Phantom Zone feat in the OP.
 

Post-Crisis​

 
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  • Another belief is that the 80s cast scaled even lower, citing many feats seemingly limiting the Pre-Death Superman to City level to Island level. While higher statistics could already fit in considering the varies tiering he has, there's little reason to limit him in the first place.
  • The feat for Island level from Action Comics #652 really has no reason to be a limit, as it's not Superman intentionally trying to cause damage, nor is he even in a fight, he's just enraged from learning what's been controlling him.
    • No one claimed that it was a limit, not even his profile.
 
Yeah it's obvious since he knows many sciency things like that batman and handles the JL tower but I wanna hear others opinion and that of Firestorm.
 
Just saw in New 52 MMH is very knowledgeable on Mathematical Higher dimensions but the scan on Aztec is Post crisis.
 
Is there anything regarding Superman's scaling to Darkseid, since they share a couple of fights in Post-Crisis
 
H3-A:

Is it normal for "Infinite Power" to be scaled in such a way? At first glance I would dismiss a phrase like that as being unusuable for scaling, but if Wiki convention is to scale it a certain way, then I suppose I'd have to concede to that.

Superman and Steel move a tesseract(Superman: The Man of Steel Vol. 1 #100, May 2000) 〰️
I'm a little iffy on this but I am willing to give it a soft yes for now. My concern is that the iteration of this infinite space -- being inside a finite device -- subjects it to a lot of wonkiness that I don't think should necessarily scale to 3-A. I would be willing to see it as supporting evidence, but in a vacuum I would feel comfortable using this as a 3-A upgrade unto itself.

Superman shakes the Phantom Zone with one punch(Superman (2018) (Rebirth) #6, February 2019) ✔️
I'm also iffy on this. Point blank the description is inaccurate, it doesn't say anything about "one punch" and I think it's really important to describe a scan accurately because most people will just glance at the description and not read the actual scan. What it says is:

"The phantom zone trembles under the weight of this fight."

To me, this is too vague to assign "significantly affects" to Superman, and at best the responsibility is spread out over all participants in the fight. I don't think this is usable in my opinion.

L2-C:

It appears as though Spectre is largely responsible for this, no? "Huh? The big guy is pumping more energy into me! Getting bigger! Cant hold it in!"

The others contributed, but I wouldn't use this as a feat for them, IMO.

Infinite-Man's power can sculpt space-time, could destroy the Universe, including the timestream (Legionnaires Vol. 1 #18, September 1994), and has the energies of space and time (Superboy and the Legion of Super-Heroes Vol. 1 #233, November 1977) ✔️
The only part of this that I would see as being L2-C is "destroy the universe, including the timestream" but the scan doesn't appear to say that. It says that Mordru and Glorith will finally lay claim to the universe, but "lay claim" is not really "destroy" and I am not sure how this scales to Infinite Man?

I don't think Martian Manhunter calling energy "limitless" should be used for a L2-C feat. Phrases like that are too subject to hyperbole for me, personally. The self-destruction clearly wasn't a L2-C feat as all it did was kill a few guys. The chains holding superman aren't damaged, the city he's in isn't completely obliterated. This just clearly isn't an L2-C feat.

Superman survives the collapse of the universe. (Superman: Where Is Thy Sting, 2001) ✔️
This seems less like a durability feat and more like cosmic wonkiness involving Superman. Do we really feel like the best way to assess this situation is that it happened because of Superman's durability? I don't think this is "Superman surviving the collapse of the universe" in a way that involves him being L2-C.

Superman fights and takes hits from the Entropy Aegis while explicitly stated to be holding back. (Superman: The Man of Steel #134, March 2003). The Entropy Aegis is stated to be the power to remake and destroy the universe. (Superman Versus Darkseid: Apokolips Now, March 2003) 〰️
He says "You get to keep John Henry Irons and the Entropy Aegis and the power to remake and destroy the universe." I don't think this scan justifies scaling the armor to L2-C. If you read the whole Entropy Aegis run, you really don't get the impression that it's anything like that.

Superman overpowers Nebula Man, who is stated to be a universe. (JLA Classified #2, March 2005) 〰️
I think this could be 3-A, but frankly, I really don't think Nebula Man and all of his opponents should scale to Tier 2 or 3 just because he's called a living universe.

Superman's clash with his Golden Age counterpart shattered the boundaries of Space-Time and changed timelines (Superman Vol. 2 #226, April 2006, Action Comics Vol. 1 #836, April 2006, Adventures of Superman Vol. 1 #649, April 2006) ✔️
I think this is a decent feat, but might require a bit more examination. Depending on how we assess the other evidence, some of which I think is clearly not supportive of Tier 2 (such as the Aztek explosion), it may not be enough by itself to justify an upgrade.

2-C:

Superman staggered the Red King, made him yell in pain, and survived an attack from him while weakened (JLA Classified Vol. 1 #35, April 2007), and was confident he could fight the Red King for an extended period of time(JLA Classified Vol. 1 #36, May 2007) 〰️
Did some research on this. It seems like this ability was pretty much entirely based on the Materioptikon/Dreamstone. The Dreamstone has part of the power of Dream of the Endless, and can create realities, that much is legit. The question becomes: Is it best to interpret Red King's possession of the stone as translating into a comparable level of combat prowess? Can he channel the dreamstone -- the purpose of which is dreaming realities -- into a blast to hit a single person? I am not so sure, but I'm open to discussion.

Superman separates two worlds(Batman/Superman Vol. 2 #21, October 2021) ✔️
I think the question should be asked: Is Superman able to do this because of 2-C power, or is it a function of being in the Archive of Worlds which has realities in the form of tapes?
Superman one shot Auteur.io(Batman/Superman Vol. 2 #21, October 2021) ✔️
Dr. Atom/Alexander Luthor also injured Auteur.io with a bomb. They also injured him with a tornado cannon. He wore armor and had robots that fought on his behalf. Auteur.io definitely has powerful reality-warping capabilities, but IMO it's clear that this does not translate to his head-to-head combat abilities. I don't think this should be interpreted as 2-C.

2-C, possibly 2-A

Most of this stuff is scaling to other characters so I'd have to more thoroughly examine their profiles and give my opinion.

Overall, unfortunately I have to say I do not find the totality of evidence particularly compelling. It seems a bit like a "throw everything at the wall and see what sticks" approach which is not ideal. The Aztek feat, for example, is so very clearly not L2-C, and feats like that really should've been pruned before making it to the final post.
 
Did you read the debunks in the OP, because some of your arguments are brought up there.
I hadn't, but I did now, and unfortunately I do not find it convincing. I don't think we have enough information to assert that Spectre was "only responsible for a small portion of the big bang energy" and I do not think Nebula Man should necessarily be seen as a 3-A or 2-C opponent just because he's a living universe. I think it's very clear that the Red King's "reality destroying" abilities stem from the Dreamstone and I do not think anything written there meaningfully contradicts that.

Particularly for the Nebula Man thing, he cites a scan in which Nebula Man says he "could have" grown large enough to replace the universe but has a flaw that keeps him small. This is presented as a reason why Nebula Man should be scaled to a full universe, but to me that directly states the opposite, due to the flaw Nebula Man doesn't and shouldn't be scaled to a full universe, because the flaw keeps him small.
 
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@Deagonx

I gave my reasoning that Where is Thy Sting is just the gradual Heat Death of the Universe, not an Infinite Mass Big Crunch.
Yeah. To be honest, independent of what the nature of the universe ending thing is, I just don't see it as being a durability feat in the first place. The fact that Death itself is involved and that this is seen as some kind of triumph over Death, and that Wonder Woman refers to Superman as a "universal constant" suggest that this is more like some kind of cosmic hax rather than a raw durability feat or something like that.
 
I'm also iffy on this. Point blank the description is inaccurate, it doesn't say anything about "one punch" and I think it's really important to describe a scan accurately because most people will just glance at the description and not read the actual scan. What it says is:

"The phantom zone trembles under the weight of this fight."

To me, this is too vague to assign "significantly affects" to Superman, and at best the responsibility is spread out over all participants in the fight. I don't think this is usable in my opinion.
Yes you're correct on that, the OP must have mistakenly said one punch instead of the battle itself making it tremble.

Yeah if they had a profile it would scale to them also since the battle shook an infinite space it's High 3-A.
Depending on how we assess the other evidence, some of which I think is clearly not supportive of Tier 2 (such as the Aztek explosion), it may not be enough by itself to justify an upgrade.
You gave a good point on that so i'd wait to see others opinion.
Did some research on this. It seems like this ability was pretty much entirely based on the Materioptikon/Dreamstone. The Dreamstone has part of the power of Dream of the Endless, and can create realities, that much is legit. The question becomes: Is it best to interpret Red King's possession of the stone as translating into a comparable level of combat prowess? Can he channel the dreamstone -- the purpose of which is dreaming realities -- into a blast to hit a single person? I am not so sure, but I'm open to discussion.
Did Superman tank an attack from the dreamstone? Haven't read the book so i'm not quite sure cause if he did that's 2-C durability feat and Superman's durability scale to AP.
I think the question should be asked: Is Superman able to do this because of 2-C power, or is it a function of being in the Archive of Worlds which has realities in the form of tapes?
@Ehnkr2beboh answered that in one of the threads.
 
Yeah if they had a profile it would scale to them also since the battle shook an infinite space it's High 3-A.
Unfortunately, I am not convinced that the phrase "The phantom zone trembles from this fight" is best interpreted as literally physically shaking the space rather than a somewhat flowery/dramatic description of the event. I think we should have a higher standard for what we are willing to scale, and this is too vague in my opinion.

Did Superman tank an attack from the dreamstone?
No, the Dreamstone was used for the reality erasure, but he never directed an attack at Superman with the stone as far as I can tell, and conceptually it doesn't make sense because numerous supermans were erased from the stone's usage when the reality they were in got deleted.
 
Unfortunately, I am not convinced that the phrase "The phantom zone trembles from this fight" is best interpreted as literally physically shaking the space rather than a somewhat flowery/dramatic description of the event. I think we should have a higher standard for what we are willing to scale, and this is too vague in my opinion.
The full narration:

"Earthquakes in the distance. The Phantom Zone trembles under the weight of this fight. Every creature and prisoner must have been alerted to this." - Superman's narration.
 
The full narration:

"Earthquakes in the distance. The Phantom Zone trembles under the weight of this fight. Every creature and prisoner must have been alerted to this." - Superman's narration.
Yeah, IMO this is far too vague to use for such a high tier.
 
My prior question was, how far do these quakes extend? Could we trust Superman's narration and senses to say that the entire realm shook?

Superman's later statement to destroy the Zone is used to support the claim.
 
L2-C:


It appears as though Spectre is largely responsible for this, no? "Huh? The big guy is pumping more energy into me! Getting bigger! Cant hold it in!"

The others contributed, but I wouldn't use this as a feat for them, IMO.
Spectre comes in last second and then helps to create the universe iirc, But before the spectre comes in Hal calls them hypocritical for creating their own universe and the guy funnelling the energy even states that he couldn't hold it in any longer before the spectre came in
 
Spectre comes in last second and then helps to create the universe iirc, But before the spectre comes in Hal calls them hypocritical for creating their own universe and the guy funnelling the energy even states that he couldn't hold it in any longer before the spectre came in
Looking further into this, it appears that the energy that they gave Waverider was absorbed earlier from Parallax's plasma energy universe.
 
Unfortunately, I am not convinced that the phrase "The phantom zone trembles from this fight" is best interpreted as literally physically shaking the space rather than a somewhat flowery/dramatic description of the event. I think we should have a higher standard for what we are willing to scale, and this is too vague in my opinion.
I don't see it as flowery language at all, the battle between them shaking the phantom zone dosen't sound flowery and i'm sure many members would agree to that also It's later stated in the same book superman can destroy the phantom zone.
No, the Dreamstone was used for the reality erasure, but he never directed an attack at Superman with the stone as far as I can tell, and conceptually it doesn't make sense because numerous supermans were erased from the stone's usage when the reality they were in got deleted.
I'm pretty sure it's been established our superman is different from other alternate supermen in DC comic stories.
 
I don't see it as flowery language at all, the battle between them shaking the phantom zone doesn't sound flowery and i'm sure many members would agree to that also It's later stated in the same book superman can destroy the phantom zone.
yeah, there is flowery language and then there is author intent, considering that superman also stated he could destroy the phantom zone, i lean towards author intent
 
Looking further into this, it appears that the energy that they gave Waverider was absorbed earlier from Parallax's plasma energy universe.
yes but superman wasn't absorbing energy, considering that the universe was accepted to be infinite the lowest the feat gets up to is high uni
 
I don't see it as flowery language at all, the battle between them shaking the phantom zone dosen't sound flowery and i'm sure many members would agree to that also It's later stated in the same book superman can destroy the phantom zone.
I think it's definitely flowery, so personally I disagree with it. However I haven't seen the statement that he could destroy it.

yes but superman wasn't absorbing energy, considering that the universe was accepted to be infinite the lowest the feat gets up to is high uni
My objection isn't affected much by that.
 
However I haven't seen the statement that he could destroy it.
main-qimg-48ac4ad6a25d9c3b6393ae14c49e31f9-lq
here you go
 
I think it's definitely flowery, so personally I disagree with it. However I haven't seen the statement that he could destroy it.
Same, that Phantom Zone is as large as Silver City, Apokolips or New Genesis, base superman without any situational solar boost like the one from the world forger, its just hyperbolic
 
That's a f**king godly panel
Bloodlusted Superman kinda looks cool but we hardly see it.
Same, that Phantom Zone is as large as Silver City, Apokolips or New Genesis, base superman without any situational solar boost like the one from the world forger, its just hyperbolic
Isn't Silver city bigger than universes same with New genesis having a room that contains the mortal universes in it iirc.
I don't remotely see how it's hyperbolic.
 
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