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DC Comics - The Legendary DC Heralds Upgrade

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Vasco said:
I don't still agree with mentioning outlier when other feats are there to make it reasonable.
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Well, calling something an outlier is the final conclusion of things, easily changeable if things before change too.
Vasco said:
You all are people should know all futures shown to be future in DC are all just possible futures, we've seen different kinds of futures we know about all are just possible future realities and not certain.
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Well, it wasn't portrayed as such in the comic and I give it value due to being shown in the canon universe as where everything else happens.
Vasco said:
I meant SBP was probably scaled to TT probably due to TT is a possible future of SBP and SBP also destroyed him in Legion of 3 worlds which also affected him in a time paradox kinda bullshit way.
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But SBP isn't at his higher levels all the time, and TT was defeated via a paradox activated by SBP, not AP/Dura scaling.
Vasco said:
That's just your headcanon.
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I agree to disagree.
Vasco said:
Definitely true that's why I didn't completely disagree with you cause it's common in fiction.
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Ok.
Vasco said:
He compared her with a Superman who's lost it, not s holding back superman.

Anyways no problem.
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Ok. I hope others see to it.
Vasco said:
How dosen't it sound meaningful? Besides someone already dropped another scan of it not just being called infinite but Endless also.
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There is no gimmick worth pointing out for the PZ based on that.

An Ok for the rest.
 
Eficiente said:
Well, it wasn't portrayed as such in the comic and I give it value due to being shown in the canon universe as where everything else happens.
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I don't think you still get it, we've seen different futures all stated to be the very future, DC futures are never certain all are just possible futures and can be altered at any moment. Besides we don't normally know anything about all these possible future versions they might be stronger or weaker or amped.
Eficiente said:
But SBP isn't at his higher levels all the time, and TT was defeated via a paradox activated by SBP, not AP/Dura scaling.
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Obviously, his power varies by his rage and I can tell you for certain his battle with superboy both infinite crisis and Legion of 3 worlds he was literally angry than he was normally, with the first bout leading to the death of superboy. I can say against the kryptonians his more angry than usual.

TT got defeated by being destroyed/killed by Superboy prime which lead to some paradoxical bullshit that affected SBP also and sent him back to his universe reading the entire event like a comic book.
Eficiente said:
I agree to disagree.
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Eficiente said:
Ok.
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Eficiente said:
Ok. I hope others see to it.
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Okay then.
Eficiente said:
There is no gimmick worth pointing out for the PZ based on that.
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If we use the Grant morrison map of the multiverse it's very possible.
 
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Vasco said:
I don't think you still get it, we've seen different futures all stated to be the future, DC futures are never certain all are just possible futures can be altered at any moment. Besides we don't normally know anything about all these possible future versions they might be stronger or weaker or amped.
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Yeah to my knowledge we consider alternate or possible futures to be inadmissible for Marvel and DC
 
Da_Lunge_Fish said:
99% of the time "agreeing to disagree" is just a way to wiggle out of conceeding
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No, what the hell is this rule? This would be such a disingenuous way to argue things on a regular basis, one would think anyone who does that on a regular basis would have people around calling them out for it and having evidence that they did in fact concede sometimes to f*ck them up.

How do you even measure that 1% (or a fraction of it) being just people being fine that 2 or more sides are disagreeing but are comfortable with what arguments were made up to that point for others to make their own conclusion, and that maybe a side could look back at it and come to have another opinion? What avoids things to simply be honest like that?

There are so many things in this thread that are style without substance, just putting things up that somewhat look presentable but aren't reasonable at all upon inspection. I imagined just going over what was wrong with each thing would do it and imply this, but no. It's reasonable to assume that Guacamolefletcher and Lord Farquaad69420 do not in fact agree to measure how "99% of the time "agreeing to disagree" is just a way to wiggle out of conceeding" and just liked a comment that disagreed hard on something I said.
 
Yes, "agree to disagree" is just a way to try to be polite and get along during subjective disagreements.

Also, Eficiente really has made a great effort to thoroughly analyse these feats. Give him a break please. Even if you like these characters and want upgrades (I also like the older versions a lot), such upgrades need to be based on very reliable or explicit feats and information.
 
NGL the 4-B values seem rather inaccurate.

1. The Alan Scott Statement probably doesn't suggest that he would take out the solar system in a fashion similar to Cell. Cell is a solid solar system buster and they're guidebooks that support it. Alan on the other hand is just based on one statement and is treated as a possibility.

2. The IMP calc done by Matthew seems odd since he's assuming that Wally has a pretty big hand for his body. Wally is 79 kg and the calc assumes that his hand is 5 kg, which is roughly 16% of his total body weight, pretty big hand since human hands take up only 0.58% of a normal humans body weight.

I plan on making a CRT to downgrade these values.
 
TimeTrapperFanBoy said:
The Alan Scott Statement probably doesn't suggest that he would take out the solar system in a fashion similar to Cell. Cell is a solid solar system buster and they're guidebooks that support it. Alan on the other hand is just based on one statement and is treated as a possibility.
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How? The statement made It clear that if Alan Scott died then the his willpower flame would have been unleashed and destroyed the solar system, i don't see how you can interpretate in any other way.
 
Vasco said:
Is there anything left to be done with this thread?
The staffs seem to be done with what they agreed and disagreed with.
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The staff that gave blanket agrees haven’t returned to give detailed evaluation, and Firestorm hasn’t updated the vote tally with my re-evaluation yet.
 
Vasco said:
Is there anything left to be done with this thread?
The staffs seem to be done with what they agreed and disagreed with.
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Well, the staff and knowledgeable members who evaluated these feats one by one need to reach an agreement regarding which of them that are reliable enough to be used.
 
LordTracer said:
I mean, go ahead, but that really doesn’t have anything to do with this thread when it’s already taking the characters out of 4-B.
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I was going to say if these discussions come to a conclusion where we keep 4-B but add in the upgrades ie "4-B, up to 2-C, possibly 2-A"? If this happens then I'll get started on the CRT. Anyways I'll stop derailing this thread.
 
The following Staff have either given blanket agrees or limited verifications: @KLOL506 @Planck69 @Maverick_Zero_X, @Matthew_Schroeder

If you have time, please make case-by-case judgments while also considering the other's determinations and reasonings.

Current case-by-case judgments are on this post and will be updated accordingly.

https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5379794

Please notify us if you wish to revise or add any feat verifications below.

Once more votes are garnered, we can begin the second round of discussion.

Current Feats w/ 3+ Agree Leanings:

Post Crisis​

Others​

Gods​

Wonder Woman​

Superman​

Lanterns​

Rebirth​

Superman​

 
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The Barbados debate Eficiente said his debate on that is weak but will leave it to other staffs to decide and agreed to disagree.
The Captain Atom debate also I think he was unsure or Somewhat agreed but needed other staffs to look at it.
 
Thank you very much for listing the accepted feats here. 🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏

However, would anything involving "herald-tier" characters fighting Superboy Prime be considered as standard "everybody can fight everybody" plot-induced stupidity for western superhero comic books, given how inconsistent SBP tends to be, and is an unproven claim from Superman about being able to destroy the Phantom Zone in an unspecified manner truly be sufficient as a reliable basis for such a massive upgrade?
 
Antvasima said:
Thank you very much for listing the accepted feats here. 🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏

However, would anything involving "herald-tier" characters fighting Superboy Prime be considered as standard "everybody can fight everybody" plot-induced stupidity for western superhero comic books, given how inconsistent SBP tends to be
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It depends because he was weakened when his suit was destroyed against superman but still upscales universes his original retcon punch which should be uni+
 
Eficiente said:
First of all it says "you have limitless 4-Dimensional energy at your disposal", it might very easily be a pool from where to draw from indefinitely. On top of that, if he were to simply blow up with limitless 4-Dimensional energy he would have destroyed the universe. We know for a fact the explosion had the purpose to hack the planetoid-sized machine villain, it's likely that the explosion was to have the energy reach all his body rather than it being a simple explosion, and every part of the blast being designed to stop that villain means that there was control put into it, which makes too unlikely that it would have harmed Supes like that, as they're allies.
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They're inside Mageddon's body so obviously it wasn't reaching the entire universe, and even then, they were at the epicenter of the thing. Even if it was just about his energy reserves, it wouldn't matter because it being self destruction would likely mean using up all of his energy reserves.

Eficiente said:
The fact that Death and Lois know it happened is worthless because you're portraying that as if it was binary; as if either A) it happened or B) it was a dream & didn't happen. It is a dream and it did happen at the same time, and the disingenuous way this was portrayed completely neglects the rules for the dream established in the story that make all the feats there inapplicable.
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Lois was talking referring to physical things being able to kill Supes, I don't know why she'd just bring up what was just a "mental illusion" as an example.

Eficiente said:
Death says that in defeating it, Super was defeating psychological demon in his mind, which can easily mean that doing the latter (defeating poetic psychological demons) leads to the former (defeating Death), so this again supports how Supes wins by overcoming the way he was feeling about certain things.
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Death clearly wasn't being serious, given how he follows it with "Fine, go on believing that, if it gives you comfort"

Eficiente said:
Death asks to consider that there might be a place where mind and matter intersect; where that which hides in your dreams takes form, implying that is the place where they were before. Dreams & mind-based things becoming real at random is pretty clear on how this had no solid rules, and that nothing from this comic should scale in reality. It really is as simple as "it's just a dream", this is just the long version.
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I think you're mistinterpreting the statement, as given how Death states that what happened before wasn't purely psychological, and that follows it with "But have you considered that there might be a place where mind and matter intersect", as well as also stating that "Where that hides in our dreams -- takes form?". Implying everything prior to be physical.

Eficiente said:
The feat's not even Low 2-C, what was destroyed has no reason to be the timeline rather than the universe and Supes even drifts through time right after it, and we had no context of the specifics of the feat like how the universe was destroyed, it might have easily been in a way that 1 human-sized body taking it is not taking the full tier of the event, like the black hole being too big, or if the black hole even caused the end of the universe and it wasn't Death instead.
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While you could just see the "Universe last moments" as in-context to entropy taking everything out, this is unlikely as we see this is when everything actually just goes blank. This clearly isn't any normal Black Hole either, as it has affected time, either making there no time at all (implying the space-time was destroyed) or merging all time together. Clark is still at the core of this dying sun for a while, and to return, he has to push through the barriers of space and time. Could be used to further imply space and time being gone.

Eficiente said:
Didn't read the story, but those wailings called my attention to check just how much does it take me to find that he's in variable control of his action or in great pain. And it was the former as soon as he shows up. John Henry is constantly trying to regain control while his Imperiax part does the same, hence he screams things like "I AM the POWER!" and "...I AM IMPERIEX REBORN!", he's kinda gaslighting himself to make things easier. This again is very disingenuous as this key fact isn't pointed out while Supes do holding back is. The thing about scaling is that 2 characters going all out against each other is a standard assumption if it isn't stated or implied and nothing else contradicts that idea. Here the idea is contradicted, so no scaling. It should be that easy.
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The Aegis is certainly not holding back, I mean he even tried to kill his own daughter here with no hesitation. He's not trying to gaslight, it is just the Aegis being in control.

Eficiente said:
Omnipresence in a smaller body to the thing you're Omnipresent over=/=Equal AP, Durability & weight to the whole thing you're Omnipresent over, logically. Even then, it would be 3-A.
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We've addressed this before, but Nebula Man is a compressed universe. As far as him being a mini-Universe goes, well obviously yeah. No one argues he's literally Universal in size. The point is he's a compressed Universe, we know this since it's said he's a supermatter (Seven Soldiers: Frankenstein #4), something like a Supersolid, which relates to condensed matter physics. This makes sense since he's no longer a baby Universe like as Qwewq, but now is an adult.

Eficiente said:
Furthermore, "shattered the boundaries of Space-Time and changed timelines" isn't Low 2-C, it would be 3-A for destroying the universe, which they didn't do nor could do at once, the over time thing they did do was to f*ck up the planet.
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Affecting space and time on a universal scale is blatantly Low 2-C.

Eficiente said:
All of this happens due to conceptual things; the ways the character should have acted being wrong in the eyes of the other character, rather than physical strength. For example Supes thinks Supes killed Lois by the way he handled his Earth, even though he saw her die of natural causes/for no reason right in front of him. It's not AP, and yes, it's at the same time dictated by their fight, such as punches. It's not binary, ok?
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I'm not sure how it's just "conceptual things" when blatant things like shattered the boundaries of space and time, as well as the book stating they were bending reality.

Eficiente said:
At one point when the Supermans are beating each other they do so while changing forms as suits/forms Superman have had over the years, throwing out of the question the state in which they are being standard.
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Can you prove any of these forms are stronger than base Superman? Some of them like Blue Superman are actually weaker than normal Superman so I don't see how this changes anything.

Eficiente said:
It turns out that Alex was messing up the multiverse all along, which he was hiding from Superman. To achieve his multiverse-related goal Alex says that Superman is the key and that everything comes from him, he messes him up along many versions of him across the multiverse, similar to how the 2 Supes were changing forms before. Alex's actions are messing up alt. Earths/universes.
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He only messes the multiverse only after the feat even happens. He wouldn't even be attacking GA Superman if that happened prior to the feat since GA Superman was on his side.

Eficiente said:
Edit!: Right after the battle was over Earth-Two Supes explains that the multiverse is unstable, that the Earths will become weaker and weaker as they're divided (Their current state), and if they aren't brought ack together soon the entire universe will explode in a new big bang & everything will be destroyed. He just knew this after being calmed down, at first both Sups blamed each other for the chaos because they didn't know any better, but they were wrong, the Earths were divided (visible from the sky) from before the battle started, and that is a state that, on its own, messes up the universe bedly & will destroy it. Superman having a vague conceptual thing going on over this related to how writers do things in comics is not something that matters to his AP at all.
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"that the Earths will become weaker and weaker as they're divided (Their current state), and if they aren't brought ack together soon the entire universe will explode in a new big bang & everything will be destroyed" is talking about something will happen, not something that has happened yet.

Eficiente said:
Many things wrong here, this too is very disingenuous. The GLC Central Battery can do that, but it's not that simple, you portray it as if its average attack was that strong, when it's not. It first needs to siphon all GL energy back to itself, this alone meaning that it can't do the feat w/o doing that yet. After that it will overload, have a power builtup & destroy itself, meaning that the feat's more than it can handle, hence it happens after an overload (It having more power than it can load), a power builtup (leads to the latter), and it destroys itself doing the feat (Your regular punches, kicks, blasts, etc. don't scale to some feat where you self-destruct).

Even then, being amped by a power source =/= having a Tier=to that power source, obligatory. Otherwise one attack alone would cause the thing to be drained into having 0 power, it needs to be proven that their stats are the same.

Hal Jordan got stomped by Sinestro with those powers, who considered himself godlike despite already scaling to Hal's level in base. Sinestro was enjoying attacking Hal immensely, so you have 3 solid reasons to dismiss that feat, that being before Hal got healed & a powerup to match Sinestro on that level.

Those scans don't show that Molly has all that, just that something has it, and it doesn't show that they have the full power of those things, just access to it. All that power is also spreading through time, so there is no reason for the full sum of it to be in the present where she's using it.
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The battery still connects to all rings and control of the battery gives control of them. Control of the green also gave Cyborg Supes control of the rings, and Hal has even fought this Cyborg.

Eficiente said:
See the Big Bang page, the Big Bang is 3-A unless stated otherwise and shielding from it not from the center isn't Universe level durability.
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Tanking a portion of an infinite universe sized big bang would still be High 3-A, and Ganthet wasn't that far from the epicenter.

I'll reply to the rest later.
 
Antvasima said:
Thank you very much for listing the accepted feats here. 🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏

However, would anything involving "herald-tier" characters fighting Superboy Prime be considered as standard "everybody can fight everybody" plot-induced stupidity for western superhero comic books, given how inconsistent SBP tends to be, and is an unproven claim from Superman about being able to destroy the Phantom Zone in an unspecified manner truly be sufficient as a reliable basis for such a massive upgrade?
Click to expand...
While the feats are better off being secondary feats to help support the Heralds Upgrade, I don't think they should be ignored outright. Superboy Prime has always been portrayed -- at least from what I've seen -- as a monster who could easily mow down large groups of Heroes and Villains, and generally cannot be stopped by our main-cast alone, the fact that Superman could still harm and trade blows with him speaks volumes.
Superman already has some Pre-Crisis scaling w/ matching Golden Age Superman, so would it really be so far-fetched that he'd be able to duke it out with Superboy Prime? Not really, no.

Destroying the Phantom Zone is still Superman believing himself able to destroy the infinite-sized zone with his own power. He gets angry, real angry, and starts charging up his Heat Vision and gets the meanest look on his face we've probably seen in a good while. He knows the power he wields, knows he could wipe the Phantom Zone off the face of the DCU -- but he also knows that he shouldn't.
He knows Ma and Pa Kent raised him better, which is why that flashback, remembering what they've said, snaps him out of it. There needs to be limits on them, especially him -- as Shazam put it so beautifully in Injustice. A big part of Superman's character is that -- despite the power he wields -- he still chooses to be a force of good, and doesn't let it get to his head.
 
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PapiSavitar5025 said:
While the feats are better off being secondary feats to help support the Heralds Upgrade, I don't think they should be ignored outright. Superboy Prime has always been portrayed -- at least from what I've seen -- as a monster who could easily mow down large groups of Heroes and Villains, and generally cannot be stopped by our main-cast alone, the fact that Superman could still harm and trade blows with him speaks volumes.
Superman already has some Pre-Crisis scaling w/ matching Golden Age Superman, so would it really be so far-fetched that he'd be able to duke it out with Superboy Prime? Not really, no.
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Maybe, maybe not. But wasn't SBP severely weakened when Superman fought him?
PapiSavitar5025 said:
Destroying the Phantom Zone is still Superman believing himself able to destroy the infinite-sized zone with his own power. He gets angry, real angry, and starts charging up his Heat Vision and gets the meanest look on his face we've probably seen in a good while. He knows the power he wields, knows he could wipe the Phantom Zone off the face of the DCU -- but he also knows that he shouldn't.
He knows Ma and Pa Kent raised him better, which is why that flashback, remembering what they've said, snaps him out of it. There needs to be limits on them, especially him -- as Shazam put it so beautifully in Injustice. A big part of Superman's character is that -- despite the power he wields -- he still chooses to be a force of good, and doesn't let it get to his head.
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That doesn't change the fact that it sounded like hyperbole speculation (with unspecified circumstances), given that this incarnation of Superman does not have any explicit raw power feats remotely of this scale, and we demand considerably more reliability from our upgrades than that.
 
PapiSavitar5025 said:
While the feats are better off being secondary feats to help support the Heralds Upgrade, I don't think they should be ignored outright. Superboy Prime has always been portrayed -- at least from what I've seen -- as a monster who could easily mow down large groups of Heroes and Villains, and generally cannot be stopped by our main-cast alone, the fact that Superman could still harm and trade blows with him speaks volumes.
Superman already has some Pre-Crisis scaling w/ matching Golden Age Superman, so would it really be so far-fetched that he'd be able to duke it out with Superboy Prime? Not really, no.
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In general I wonder how Pre-Crisis stacks up in terms of general Superman scaling. Like the Post 5G version is apparently a composite Supes and we have PC fighting someone who had scaling to Silver Age

we might need to think on that
 
Antvasima said:
Maybe, maybe not. But wasn't SBP severely weakened when Superman fought him?

That doesn't change the fact that it sounded like hyperbole speculation (with unspecified circumstances), given that this incarnation of Superman does not have any explicit raw power feats remotely of this scale, and we demand considerably more reliability from our upgrades than that.
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I would not know, if you could give me the sources for their fight I could look through it myself when I have time.

This incarnation of Superman is merged with Post-Crisis, who, as being discussed, has possibly many feats around or on this level. However, I do agree with you in that it is too ambiguous to warrant an upgrade ON ITS OWN.

Which is why it should be strictly supporting evidence.
 
Hellbeast said:
In general I wonder how Pre-Crisis stacks up in terms of general Superman scaling. Like the Post 5G version is apparently a composite Supes and we have PC fighting someone who had scaling to Silver Age

we might need to think on that
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I think scaling Post Crisis to Silver Age is its own can of worms for another time. However, we can downscale via scaling to an elder Golden Age Superman who fought SA Superman when he was younger.
 
The Golden Age Superman did suddenly go from tier 4 (in his own old stories) to tier 2 when somehow matching the Silver Age Superman in combat, yes. However, given how inconsistent it was with his earlier appearances, we might have to consider it as a standard "everybody can fight everybody" plot convention for western superhero comic books.
 
Antvasima said:
The Golden Age Superman did suddenly go from tier 4 (in his own old stories) to tier 2 when somehow matching the Silver Age Superman in combat, yes. However, given how inconsistent it was with his earlier appearances, we might have to consider it as a standard "everybody can fight everybody" plot convention for western superhero comic books.
Click to expand...
Golden Age Superman is a whole can of worms. In the original stories he was essentially a small building supersonic+ SJW
 
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