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Really? Huh, alright then.She does. Diana has said, more than once, that she considers herself a pacifist and abhors combat.
But do we have any justification for Wonder Woman suppressing herself that much for a fight against Aquaman?
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Really? Huh, alright then.She does. Diana has said, more than once, that she considers herself a pacifist and abhors combat.
I'm good with this. All the leftover feats can be discussed on this thread.I guess we'll just make one at a time I suppose? Like we cover Superman, then Green Lantern, then the rest.
I think only Supes and the GLs should get their own respective threads since most of the feats come from them.
Not consistently. Which is why it's still only a at most rating.scaling to other characters who hold back less
They’re normally comrades aren’t they? Seems unlikely that Diana would try her hardest to kill him unless context supports that.Really? Huh, alright then.
But do we have any justification for Wonder Woman suppressing herself that much for a fight against Aquaman?
I'm not saying she'd try her hardest, but I'm arguing against Diana holding back an infinite amount to fight Arthur.They’re normally comrades aren’t they? Seems unlikely that Diana would try her hardest to kill him unless context supports that.
Doesn't Arthur also have scaling to other characters who hold back less
It's possible if you look at DB and Marvel profiles not all characters scale to goku and vegeta same with Thor and hulk.I'm not saying she'd try her hardest, but I'm arguing against Diana holding back an infinite amount to fight Arthur.
Because it was going to kill Hippolyta, not because it was going to destroy the universe.Circe fires a bolt, to which Superman explicitly says that the universe is riding on him being able to stop it.
Was due of her raw power or because she had entire pantheons of powerful gods fight each other and causing havoc in the universe? Pretty sure its the latter.The Phantom Stranger directly says that Circe‘s doings will result in the negation of all creation.
Because by making the gods fight each other she was able to **** the universe, she didn't do it with her strength alone.All of the universe destroying statements are attributed to Circe. She’s the one that was going to destroy the universe, nobody else.
I still not fully sold in the idea to make him and TT comparable, he was still losing the fight and it was necessary the power of the entire Legion of Superheroes to put him down momentarily, at best he downscale but i do not believe that he should fully scale.Dosen't refute how the OP said he briefly fights Time Trapper and bonus overpowered him for sometime now tell me how can a lesser tier character briefly fights and overpowers a villian for certain moments and won't scale to the villian even Overpowering such a character says alot already than arguing he won't scale cause the villian began fighting him on-par later.
*Your first scan literally shows superman draws blood from him with a punch and overpowering him that itself is enough.I still not fully sold in the idea to make him and TT comparable, he was still losing the fight and it was necessary the power of the entire Legion of Superheroes to put him down momentarily, at best he downscale but i do not believe that he should fully scale.
The fact Superman damaged and drew blood for him is enough talk more of Overpowering him for sometime.A character with a certain degree of attack potency does not necessarily need to cause destructive feats on that level, but can cause damage to characters that can withstand such forces.
No, the Roman and Greek gods fighting in New Olympus is not what caused the near destruction of the universe. You being “pretty sure it’s the latter” doesn’t mean a whole lot when you haven’t even read the comic.Was due of her raw power or because she had entire pantheons of powerful gods fight each other and causing havoc in the universe? Pretty sure its the latter.
Again, that’s not what happened. Even by reading the summary on DC wiki that you’re getting all your info from, literally nothing says that the battle between the Greek and Roman gods is what caused the near destruction of the universe. The destruction was still going to happen even after the gods stopped fighting each other. Stop making claims that are unsupported by the text, especially when you haven’t actually read the comic.Because by making the gods fight each other she was able to **** the universe, she didn't do it with her strength alone.
I'd actually want to know the reason for this claim here.
- Superman (Kingdom Come) - Universe level+, maybe Low Multiverse level. Is actually weaker than PC Clark, but can be scaled to Power Girl
Livewire doesn’t scale normally, she‘s a 5-A normally. She would only scale with absorption, and that’s mainly because she matched Blue Beetle.for example under no means is Livewire Tier 2
Blue Beetle I also find iffy scaling to Tier 2. He was completely overwhelmed by Guy and has no reason to have a universal rating.She would only scale with absorption, and that’s mainly because she matched Blue Beetle.
He did block an attack from a Guy that’s explicitly trying to kill him, so I wouldn’t say he’s being completely overwhelmed. At the very least, he should be able to scale with shields.Blue Beetle I also find iffy scaling to Tier 2. He was completely overwhelmed by Guy and has no reason to have a universal rating.
He took one from a Berserk Guy, got over powered right after and was going to have a drill smash him to pieces. It's not good scaling evidence in my view.He did block an attack from a Guy that’s explicitly trying to kill him
Not for AP, no, but it’s pretty blatant for his durability.He took one from a Berserk Guy, got over powered right after and was going to have a drill smash him to pieces. It's not good scaling evidence in my view.
Does he have any other showings besides almost dying to Guy?from someone explicitly trying to kill.
I'm confused here. I'm not saying Supes should scale to Godhead Darkseid. What I'm saying is this. The state of the gods is dependent on the reality they're in. If they're in the Universe, they're 3D, if they're in the Godsphere, they're 5D. So, if New Gods can destroy these higher dimensional Universes, when they get nerfed proportionately to go to the Universe, they should be capable of destroying normal Universes. We see this with how Superman can fight in-Universe Darkseid, and then when Clark gets amped to go to the Godsphere, he's on par with Apok Darkseid. So as has been the point my whole time, the change in dimensionality would be proportional to the change in power.Considering you're dealing with depowered avatars of other beings, I disagree. There's too much separation between true forms and what the heroes typically fight.
If the heroes energy for the Big Bang was enough (as Waverider was confident) and they're mainly credited (speaking of that, I'm still not sure why you're disregarding the DDW statement), it's likely Spectre gave the last bit the heroes could've given had Parallax not interfered.That's my point. He got bigger but it wasn't until Spectre pumped more into him that he actually exploded.
Just because he can absorb it doesn't mean it amps him, Clark can also absorb Red Solar Radiation. We even literally see it harm him in both cases, it's literally anti-sunlight, the opposite of the thing that gives him powers.It did, Superman mentions that he would try to absorb anti-sunlight to survive the explosion and did. He was amped by both normal light and anti-light.
I don't think this proves that the Big Bang doesn't create time. If anything, before the Big Bang, it's said they're literally running out of time and at the end of time. I'm not even sure if he's running through time at this point anyways, at this point he's trying to get back into the Speed Force.Flash ran far into the future until the Big Bang happened. Then once the Big Bang happened he kept running further into time until he could save his wife, meaning it existed in the same time loop.
As such the Big Bang and time are independent of each other. Since you can go forward or backward from it.
Yeah, I know your point isn't that they're like the Probes. My point is that they're like the Probes, because it's literally a reprogrammed Probe, there's no reason say it acts like Imperiex Prime.IMy comparison wasn't that it was like the probes, but that like Imperiex people don't scale to the Low 2-C feat. The Aegis was designed to channel and control energy, as it did against Imperiex. Darkseid was going to use that to rewrite the universe, which isn't something that scales to its punching power.
What? Nothing you said here is mutually exclusive, like yeah, he is controlling the rift. That is the power he has in this arc, the power he was using to merge and hold the Universes together, and the power that still lost to Starbreaker.Oh, it all came back now.
So that is Dharma. From the Dakatoverse. This is important because he himself is not holding these universes together. He controls the Rift who's power is what holds the universe together. The event World's Collide was about this topic. In fact the end of this comic literally mentions him controlling the Rift and using that power to hold Dakatoverse/DC together.
Killing Dharma is not a Tier 2 feat, because Dharma is not the one holding the universes together.
Essentially the argument is that PC Superman was beating up Earth-One Gog until he was weakened, and Earth One Gog defeated KC Clark when he had help. There's also the Leatherjacket Superboy vs KC Supes fight from Convergence, where they fought for like an hour. KC Clark's scales aren't too strong, since it's him punching off-guard PC Supes when they're near Kryptonite with PC being fine after, and scaling with Hercules, someone weaker than Diana early on. I'd rather save all these scaling discussions for later though.I'd actually want to know the reason for this claim here.
They get nerfed by an infinite amount by shrinking down to the real universe. That nerf means in no one can you scale them to the 4th world forms or scale them back in a way that implies a universal showing.So, if New Gods can destroy these higher dimensional Universes, when they get nerfed proportionately to go to the Universe, they should be capable of destroying normal Universes.
Damage didn't explode until Spectre pumped it into him and his size expanded as well. The energy they contributed doesn't mean anything in my view. Scaling Kyle to it is fine, but I'm not seeing the power output being valid.But again, even if Spectre gave 90% of the energy, the heroes would still have to be giving a portion, and a portion of Low 2-C is still 2-C.
That doesn't work at all in context. Superman says outright he can absorb sunlight so he'll try anti-sunlight and it works. A being working for the God of Light blasted Superman with light. It shows that Superman's power absorption works on 4D things, but blasting someone with energy that makes them stronger isn't a durability feat.. We even literally see it harm him in both cases
Which then loops back to the beginning of time
Again, I was using it as a comparison. Like how no one scales to Imperiex Prime's self-detonation when connected to B13, no one scales to that aspect of the Aegis.there's no reason say it acts like Imperiex Prime.
The Rift is a person who is in a permeant state of slumber. He's using his power to fuse the worlds and isn't actively holding it back himself.What? Nothing you said here is mutually exclusive, like yeah, he is controlling the rift.
I'm literally saying Darkseid gets infinitely weaker (from Tier 1 to Tier 2), but proportionate to the Dimension he's in, so if Higher D Darkseid can destroy Higher D Universes, normal Darkseid can destroy normal ones. I even just displayed that with how Clark's fights with Darkseid's go.They get nerfed by an infinite amount by shrinking down to the real universe. That nerf means in no one can you scale them to the 4th world forms or scale them back in a way that implies a universal showing.
Yeah, I know he didn't explode until Spectre pumped energy into him. They still gave enough energy to be the main ones credited, and Waverider was confident they had enough energy with the heroes alone, with the reason he didn't get all of that being Parallax's interference, which I already said.Damage didn't explode until Spectre pumped it into him and his size expanded as well. The energy they contributed doesn't mean anything in my view. Scaling Kyle to it is fine, but I'm not seeing the power output being valid.
I agree he can absorb anti-sunlight. But what I'm saying is it's like how he absorbs red solar radiation.That doesn't work at all in context. Superman says outright he can absorb sunlight so he'll try anti-sunlight and it works. A being working for the God of Light blasted Superman with light. It shows that Superman's power absorption works on 4D things, but blasting someone with energy that makes them stronger isn't a durability feat.
...Because of the Big Bang happeningWhich then loops back to the beginning of time
And what I'm saying is the comparison to Imperiex Prime is unsubstantiated because he's basically just an amped Imperiex Probe. All Probes do is shoot out entropy, there's no reason to say Entropy Aegis' works like that, that's a random assumption.Again, I was using it as a comparison. Like how no one scales to Imperiex Prime's self-detonation when connected to B13, no one scales to that aspect of the Aegis.
I was not saying they were the same thing.
I was making a comparison that both are examples of something that doesn't scale to AP.
I this means it doesn't correlate to AP. Yeah, I know who the Rift is, and yeah, I know Dharma was using his power. That's the version of Dharma Starbreaker fought. Also, wdym by "isn't holding it back himself"? Holding the Universes together? If so, he was.The Rift is a person who is in a permeant state of slumber. He's using his power to fuse the worlds and isn't actively holding it back himself.
Its not a AP feat he would scale to.
But you're not scaling correctly. Darkseid not only as aspects in the 4th world, but those aspects are further nerfed when going through a boom tube. Let alone other New Gods with similar issues. What they do cannot be downscaled.I'm literally saying Darkseid gets infinitely weaker (from Tier 1 to Tier 2), but proportionate to the Dimension he's in, so if Higher D Darkseid can destroy Higher D Universes, normal Darkseid can destroy normal ones
The only time he exploded was after Spectre dumped energy into him and he notes it as being a notable amount of energy. I don't see them scaling.Waverider was confident they had enough energy with the heroes alone,
Aztek broke Superman free of his mind control and allowed Superman to shatter his shackles. Being hit by something that amps you isn't a good durability feat, especially when right after he's shown to be able to absorb other forms of esoteric light radiation.And again, we literally see Superman struggling to talk after getting hit by Aztek,
Because he ran to the Big Bang and then ran after the Big Bang and both events happened, that means they share one timeline....Because of the Big Bang happening
You're just not getting the comparison.And what I'm saying is the comparison to Imperiex Prime is unsubstantiated
Dharma is not holding back the universes with his own strength, as the story itself stated.Also, wdym by "isn't holding it back himself"?
Rift was, not Dharma. Dharma does not scale to Rift.Holding the Universes together? If so, he was.
I don't think Darkseid using aspects in the 4th World is relevant, since those would be the ones performing the feats in the OP.But you're not scaling correctly. Darkseid not only as aspects in the 4th world, but those aspects are further nerfed when going through a boom tube. Let alone other New Gods with similar issues. What they do cannot be downscaled.
I know he exploded after the Spectre, stuff, I addressed that. Aand again, it's attributed to the 4 heroes mainly in a comic written by Dan Jurgens, who wrote Zero Hour. I don't see a way around this.The only time he exploded was after Spectre dumped energy into him and he notes it as being a notable amount of energy. I don't see them scaling.
I'm disagreeing on if it amps him though, and you still haven't given reasons the light amps him. It's not like it's sunlight, and we've literally seen Supes get hurt by light-based attacks from Doctor Light (Justice League of America #14).Aztek broke Superman free of his mind control and allowed Superman to shatter his shackles. Being hit by something that amps you isn't a good durability feat, especially when right after he's shown to be able to absorb other forms of esoteric light radiation.
I addressed him probably not even running through time here, as he was trying to get into the speed force. I think the fact time literally ended and only came back when the Big Bang happened would support the Big Bang creating time.Because he ran to the Big Bang and then ran after the Big Bang and both events happened, that means they share one timeline.
Which is High 3-A.
As I've been saying, this comparison is unsubstantiated. He is just a reprogrammed Imperiex Probe, and while he does channel entropy, there's no reason to say this is anything other than AP. I don't think it's ever stated or implied the Aegis can rewrite timelines in this sort of sense, so this just seems arbitrary.You're just not getting the comparison.
The Aegis was made to channel energy, such as time and space altering energy to change the universe. Darkseid was planning on using that ability to rewrite reality. Its not something someone scales to by just punching hard.
He wasn't mentally controlling him, he tapped into the power source, and as we see in the bottom left panel, he was merging the Universes himself, and in the bottom right panel he says, and I quote, "I hold it all together with Rift's creative energy and the force of my will".Dharma is not holding back the universes with his own strength, as the story itself stated.
Dharma is mentally controlling the person who is actively fusing those two universes. Killing Dharma means nothing, as all Dharma was doing was telling a dreaming kid "Fuse the two universes". When he died, the command telling the kid "Fuse the two universes" stopped being transmitted. Which is what Icon was talking about.
Rift was, not Dharma. Dharma does not scale to Rift.
Exactly. His will is controlling the Rift. The actual power of combining the universes is the Rift. This is important because the Rift when awake and not under his control already fused the two universes together. After the Rift was put to sleep, Dharma had him keep up the universal fusion so that their universe wouldn't have been destroyed by Darkseid."I hold it all together with Rift's creative energy and the force of my will"
That's not him saying he mind controlled the Rift. It's saying he used the Rift's power and his own force of will, not that he used his will to control Rift's power. The power merging the Universes was Rift's, but Rift's being used by Dharma (the same Dharma Starbreaker defeated), as, and I cannot stress this enough, Dharma is shown on panel merging the Universes himself.Exactly. His will is controlling the Rift. The actual power of combining the universes is the Rift. This is important because the Rift when awake and not under his control already fused the two universes together. After the Rift was put to sleep, Dharma had him keep up the universal fusion so that their universe wouldn't have been destroyed by Darkseid.
This is not a AP feat Dharma or Starbreaker scale to. This is the Rift and they don't scale to the Rift's power.
Dharma is using the Rift's power to merge the universe. The scan is a representation of what he's doing with the Rift. Before you come and say that's just wrong, note that its referencing a scene of the Rift literally doing this feat when its awake.
Yes. We should treat it like how we treat Thor scaling. Not everyone, even if they've fought Superman before, should scale to Tier 2. Especially when the bulk of these heroes will hold back to the point where they'll kill themselves at times.your current stance is that Tier 2 at peak for certain characters is fine, but the scaling has to be treated carefully, right?
I finished sortingShould I go through with Firestorm's suggestion for the sake of cohesiveness.
Also I'll probably sort the list for feats that:
- Rejected
- In discussion
- Accepted
I recommend that we make the separate threads for cohesiveness.Should I go through with Firestorm's suggestion for the sake of cohesiveness.
Also I'll probably sort the list for feats that:
- Rejected
- In discussion
- Accepted
The Flodo Span feat is still in discussion. I don't think anyone replied to my post regarding it not being a physical feat.I finished sorting
That's pretty well constructed. So yeah, I don't think using it is a good idea then.The Flodo Span feat is still in discussion. I don't think anyone replied to my post regarding it not being a physical feat.
Aquaman. Where's he gonna fall under?I also updated the OP.
Anything that isn't under Superman or Green Lantern will be discussed in this thread.
Scaling discussion comes after the feat discussion.Aquaman. Where's he gonna fall under?
What's the King of the Sea's best feats?
Scaling comes later.This is a Hal Jordan being mind controlled in thinking superman was being possessed by parallax, After a battle between the both superman knocks him back to his senses, This scan shows both are comparable, Since Superman said he held back so he wouldn't break his head and also saying he'd hate to be hit by Hal Jordan in his right senses.
Shouldn't this prove both are comparable to each other?