DC Comics - The Legendary DC Heralds Upgrade

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

Also, Belial, Suge and Ruskoff survive sitting in a room with millions of universes crushing around and through them
Phantom Stranger (2012) #6

 

[Eficiente]

Spoiler: Where is Thy Sting

The first thing to cover is the reasoning people say it's not real. First off, Superman suspects he's hallucinating, but this is just his guess. Death seemingly confirms it is, but then compares regular life to hallucinations too, meaning he's essentially saying everything Superman thinks is real is fake, which obviously isn't true. Superman again asks if it's real, though again, this is still him not being sure.

Superman asks Death if it was all a dream, and Death responds that he can choose to believe it if it comforts him, but really it was on planes of reality where mind and matter intersect. Superman says it was a dream, but this is just him choosing to believe it was. And to further clarify what death is describing, he's talking about a place where Superman's psychological demons take physical form, as he says "where which hides in our dreams takes form", meaning what's happening here was physical. On top of this, in Action Comics #1030, we see Lois referencing it as if it did indeed happen.

As for the destruction of the Universe being heat death, this is never implied at all. All we know is it's a black hole that collapsed the Universe, so this comes from nowhere. Also, even if it was a Universal amount of entropy, that's still a Universal durability feat, the same way surviving a fire that can burn down Universes would be Universal and not just heat resistance.

From Death's description, it's very likely a physical feat, though I can see reason to doubt this, so at the very least this should be a strong supporting feat for Low 2-C. As for the Heat Death argument, it's really baseless and mostly irrelevant.

I went over this pretty well as it was proposed as a feat. The conclusions from the info at hand are not surprisingly very disingenuous.

Superman suspects he's hallucinating, but this is just his guess. Death seemingly confirms it is

This bit is abysmally wrong, you don't pretend to devalue what Supes thought due to only being a guess if it's confirmed to be correct, just skip to the part where you say why the confirmation doesn't matter, this thing is indefensible.

just his guess. Death seemingly confirms it is, but then compares regular life to hallucinations too, meaning he's essentially saying everything Superman thinks is real is fake, which obviously isn't true

By context they devalue "seemingly confirms" this due to that, but that has no basis on anything, that just fits what they believe and so this is taken as supporting that. What about whatever sensations caused Supes to think it was a hallucination? What about how he & his costume's molecules passed through a wall in a way that isn't normal, ie w/o using his Intangibility? The take used is that it doesn't matter when it makes perfect sense to recognize it. What about Death seemingly confirming it? The take used is that it doesn't matter when the actual logical take is to recognize it. Death BSing Supes is used to devalue everything before when the actual logical take is to take it on its own as something false, and that therefore the other stuff about about it being a hallucination stand as it is.

Superman again asks if it's real, though again, this is still him not being sure

Death already "seemingly confirmed" that it wasn't, you don't ignore this just because he's not sure, and what about whatever caused Supes to think that?

Superman asks Death if it was all a dream, and Death responds that he can choose to believe it if it comforts him, but really it was on planes of reality where mind and matter intersect.

1) The fact that Death allows Supes to believe that is dismissed as not mattering, when value should be given to the fact that he allowe him to believe that. 2) Like many of cases across this thread, there is a rather silly binary take on things on things in which if you get away with 1 option you're correct and if not you're wrong, w/o actually having the proper understanding of what it's being talked about. This is not "If it's a dream, it's wrong. If it's not a dream, it's correct", let's say it's not a dream, ok, it doesn't matter because it's at least an esoteric state of reality where mind and matter intersect and that which hides in our dreams takes form. The reason why it wouldn't matter as a dream is because a dream isn't reality as its rules of logic (thereby character's stats and the power behind feats happening) are pretty much random, variable and at the bias of the dreamer. Similar bs are the rules apply to the place where this story takes place, even if categorically it's not 100% correct to call it a dream because it's not a dream. (Also it is a dream.)

Superman says it was a dream, but this is just him choosing to believe it was

You have no reason to dismiss him saying that with all the info he had, you remove all the value to all the buildup that make him say that at the end. Either it was a dream or at worst it's basically a dream to the point it's worth saying it's a dream.

And to further clarify what death is describing, he's talking about a place where Superman's psychological demons take physical form, as he says "where which hides in our dreams takes form", meaning what's happening here was physical.

No self-awareness to the fact that the same reasons that invalidates all the powers shown in the story are the same when being from a dream having taken physical form. And no, taking form doesn't necessarily mean physical form, as a real dream is super vague, whereas a place where mind and matter intersect can be a mix between real & fake or a more defined dream can stand on its own as a reality while still being a dream, unlike your real life dreams that don't.

All we know is it's a black hole that collapsed the Universe, so this comes from nowhere. Also, even if it was a Universal amount of entropy, that's still a Universal durability feat, the same way surviving a fire that can burn down Universes would be Universal and not just heat resistance.

My stance is the same as in my other comment that went over the feat, you just assume things you don't know and that are super vague. Surviving a fire that can burn down universe may or may not be Universe level dura, depends on how's the feat. Likewise Environmental Destruction is a thing, a Universe level event may not still have 3-A AP if you remove human-sized parts of it and look at it on their own, and what's Universe level is the whole sum of all the parts of the event, getting weaker and weaker if you remove parts of it.

Spoiler: Superman vs. Time Trapper

Next is Time Trapper. People often say that Trapper was fighting Conner Kent as Superboy Prime in the past, which was shown altering the future. However, this isn’t Conner’s punches literally affecting Trapper through time, just the effects of the fight, such as a wound inflicted still showing. A physical attack landed possibly trillions of years prior won’t have any profound effect on the current state of Trapper. The heat vision is specifically a wound inflicted that never healed.

Even before the reveal and the eventual wounds he suffered, Superman could still survive bloodlusted attacks from Trapper, blitz him and stagger him. The power of Trapper is contentious, as there’s been multiple versions of him according to DC Encyclopedia: New Edition, possible embodying the same being, or possibly hosts more like Spectre. However, this Trapper is at least regarded as a sentient timeline, and would scale off Superboy-Prime.

Side note: Superboy being able to wound Prime also boosts the argument for Superman as well. A lot of people debate Prime’s state, but he was rejuvenated with solar radiation just before encountering Conner. Prime’s rage is debatable and hard to quantify, but before the battle he’s forced to relive the events of Infinite Crisis reversed, with him portrayed as a D list villain, and characters like Superman and Superboy portrayed as heroes. Given that Prime is not only going through the same process as Infinite Crisis, but now attacks against his own status, it’s more logical to say his rage wouldn’t be drastically altered. For context, Alexander Luthor says this in a comic where Prime is back on his home world, with his family and his girlfriend, and is eventually redeemed, something LO3W Prime is explicitly unable to do.

Also for the lack of the suit Prime usually wears, the suit just feeds Prime sunlight, something his cells could already do regardless. He also has arguably his toughest fight without the suit against Sodam Yat as well.

My stance is the same, all his feats are below what we claim. He's not a timeline in any sense that matters, his body is still flesh, bone & blood, he weights the same, no reason for his AP & dura to be affected by this.

Spoiler: Phantom Zone scaling

Next, the Phantom Zone. There’s three main points to tackle.

1. Superman being physically linked to the Phantom Zone
2. Superman being dimensionally amped
3. Superman being unaware of the structure shaking

The first one is fairly simple. It comes from Superman #215, where Clark states that Zod and himself are connected physically to the world Zod was banished into, being the Phantom Zone. However, this is not talking about the Phantom Zone. It’s talking about Metropia, a world born from Jor Els technology created off a question Lois presented. This is the world Superman and Zod are fighting in, as mentioned multiple times.

Now another question may come. Why did Superman say Zod was banished here? Simple. Metropia is made from the clay of the Phantom Zone as stated in Superman #214. Zod was in the Phantom Zone for such a long period, he became engrained in its very fabric and nature, causing him to appear in this world created from it. Essentially, the statement has nothing to do with the Phantom Zone being connected to Superman’s nature and physical body. It’s referring to Metropia, a world made from Superman and Lois’s dialogue made from the clay of the Phantom Zone. The only reason Supes is connected to it is because he specifically made it.


This is kinda weird, because there’s literally zero mention of him warping or remaking the Phantom Zone. It’s explicitly stated many times it’s a world created, not one simply remade. Again, this is all exclusive to the arc and not a general overview of the Phantom Zone. And for the record, the two Zods fighting are not the same, so being part of the clay doesn’t mean much for Rebirth Zod.

The next one is Supes being in a higher dimension. The DC Map states that the Phantom Zone is within the Godsphere, which characters must be dimensionally amped to reside in. However, this doesn’t really change the nature of the Phantom Zone, just its dimensionality. If a higher dimensional being can threaten a higher dimensional Universe, it would still scale to a normal being threatening a normal Universe.

Lastly, people often point out that Superman was unaware that the Phantom Zone could hold a planet, making him not credible on such a statement. Firstly, this doesn’t have much relevance. While he is previously unaware, he has various comics afterwards where he’s living and fighting in it. From there, his credibility can be bolstered due to direct exposure to the capacities of the Phantom Zone. As shown in WITS, Superman is able to tell that the entire Universe and Creation is in its dying stages. This shows how far Superman’s awareness can actually span. We also know stuff like Superman being able to see infinite distances and whatnot, so his awareness spanning this far once within the Phantom Zone is quite plausible. Lastly, it’s sort of a very odd thing to write if it weren’t true. It sorta goes against the intent of a statement that narratively isn’t contingent off being false or exaggerated or ignorant being false. It’s also odd because Superman clearly now knows it’s much larger than Earth, so trying to argue it’s a planetary feat off intent is weird.


Another side point. The refutation that Superman means to destroy the Phantom Zone with gear is very odd. Separate interpretations are completely fine when they have a basis, but this one has pretty much nothing to it. Superman refers to having the power to do it, and the entire context is around Superman’s moral system and his ability to control his power even with tests and tough times. To say it means gear or even hyperbole with no real basis is sort of disingenuous, especially given the context. Another thing noted is he would have destroyed one, which completely misses the point of not only heroes and Superman, but the scan itself. Supes is talking about on normal days he can control and restrain his morals. As a hero, it’s clearly not in character to go around nuking dimensions.

Same stance. Supes can't tell when the entire Universe and Creation is in its dying stages, all the insane P&A he gains from Where is Thy Sting are rejected.

Spoiler: Hal Jordan vs Krona

Next up is Krona scaling. The first thing to note is this refutation:


Just to keep in mind, at this point, Hal has fought Sinestro, Lobo, Atrocitus, Larfleeze, Predator, and Parallax Flash, with some of these being extended fights where Hal is clearly harmed, so it should be fair to say this isn't Hal at his full power, and this would explain why Hal does so much better later in the arc. As for this:


This is quite blatantly not true. We literally see Hal make the plan to contact the entities to remove them from the Guardians, which Hal gets Kyle to do by drawing in Krona's book, with Krona still overriding their usage of the rings. At this point, we see Krona get all the rings, and he seemingly attacks Hal with all the entities on panel. On top of this, the entities are only freed after Hal defeats Krona, so it's pretty clear Krona was still controlling them.

As for Hal being on this level being an Outlier, he harmed Black Lantern Crispus, and normal Crispus has fought the Butcher, a weaker Hal has taken attacks from a possessed GLC power battery, he fought the Predator, multiple GLs fought the Guardians with the Entities, Atrocitus fought the Butcher, Hal survived Krona attacking him with the Entities, etc. It's pretty consistent for them to scale to this level, especially in Geoff John's run.

Same stance. Krona doesn't seemingly attack Hal with all the entities, those are constructions on the same colors as the rings he has, the entities are still possessing the other Guardians are we saw before and as they come out of them when freed.

Spoiler: DeMatteis saying Superman isn't Universal

This one is a really simple debunk. Basically, DC writer J.M. DeMatteis says Superman destroying the Universe is a stretch. Is this conclusive evidence to Kal not being Universal? Not quite.

First thing to cover is alternate interpretations. The first thing is that Superman destroying the Universe will immediately sound like a stretch to anyone familiar with character, since that's not at all something he would do. As well as this, destroying the Universe generally involves having to defeat anyone who'd try to stop him, which is a tall task in a franchise with such powerful characters. As well as this, even if Superman isn't capable of destroying the Universe, that could be due to his range, and he could still have Universal AP.

As well as this, when asked if Superman could destroy the Universe-sized Phantom Zone (as clarified by the questioner), he said he had no clue. This brings us to an important point, DeMatteis' twitter statements are completely unusable for scaling. According to him, anyone's interpretation of the comic is as important as his own. He's also explained that these vs battle questions aren't up his alley, and aren't things he actively thinks about. This carries on to other things, such as how abilities work and if certain comics are dreams.

This does matter to be listed, it's not to be 100% ignored. "anyone's interpretation of the comic is as important as his own", if that was a real quote he said, doesn't necessarily mean that it's anyone's interpretation is as canon, but that anyone can enojoy the comic while taking what they will from it, not needing to be exact about it, and fearing that being exact can go against people's takes on things & thus part of the way they enjoy things. The real quote he has can be something along those lines. Is his opinion 100% exact authority? No. But it is worth listing and keeping in mind when organizing everything.

He's also explained that these vs battle questions aren't up his alley,

He didn't know the 2nd strongest besides the Presence and has some less care on who's more powerful, that's pretty understandable. It's not shown what he replies to in the second question, it being a generic Vs Dabates quesion is pretty small.

and aren't things he actively thinks about.

Not powerscale to know "who's more powerful"=/=know if 1 character specifically can destroy the universe, it's not 1 to 1. It's loosely related.

Who scales to who?

This scaling is a mess, it's not about how consistently they do against each other but scaling to the higher feats if you're close to it and if you're not then sucks for you. That's not how scaling works, you don't avoid characters scaling because stats are too ridiculous for them if they still do consistently well against those that scale, the stats are ridiculous for everyone who scales, cut off the scaling for no reason doesn't make it less ridiculous.

For the sake of cohesion. Superman feats will be discussed here. Green Lantern feats will be discussed here.

Anything that isn't under Superman or Green Lantern will be discussed in this thread.

That was unprofessional, it divides attention with too many things to talk about whereas they could have just talked about some feats at a time in 1 thread, have them accepted as outliers for a time (or rejected), then later doing another thread for the rest of the feats, and then get over the scaling. That would have been more organized and concentrated.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

I went over this pretty well as it was proposed as a feat. The conclusions from the info at hand are not surprisingly very disingenuous.



This bit is abysmally wrong, you don't pretend to devalue what Supes thought due to only being a guess if it's confirmed to be correct, just skip to the part where you say why the confirmation doesn't matter, this thing is indefensible.



By context they devalue "seemingly confirms" this due to that, but that has no basis on anything, that just fits what they believe and so this is taken as supporting that. What about whatever sensations caused Supes to think it was a hallucination? What about how he & his costume's molecules passed through a wall in a way that isn't normal, ie w/o using his Intangibility? The take used is that it doesn't matter when it makes perfect sense to recognize it. What about Death seemingly confirming it? The take used is that it doesn't matter when the actual logical take is to recognize it. Death BSing Supes is used to devalue everything before when the actual logical take is to take it on its own as something false, and that therefore the other stuff about about it being a hallucination stand as it is.



Death already "seemingly confirmed" that it wasn't, you don't ignore this just because he's not sure, and what about whatever caused Supes to think that?



1) The fact that Death allows Supes to believe that is dismissed as not mattering, when value should be given to the fact that he allowe him to believe that. 2) Like many of cases across this thread, there is a rather silly binary take on things on things in which if you get away with 1 option you're correct and if not you're wrong, w/o actually having the proper understanding of what it's being talked about. This is not "If it's a dream, it's wrong. If it's not a dream, it's correct", let's say it's not a dream, ok, it doesn't matter because it's at least an esoteric state of reality where mind and matter intersect and that which hides in our dreams takes form. The reason why it wouldn't matter as a dream is because a dream isn't reality as its rules of logic (thereby character's stats and the power behind feats happening) are pretty much random, variable and at the bias of the dreamer. Similar bs are the rules apply to the place where this story takes place, even if categorically it's not 100% correct to call it a dream because it's not a dream. (Also it is a dream.)



You have no reason to dismiss him saying that with all the info he had, you remove all the value to all the buildup that make him say that at the end. Either it was a dream or at worst it's basically a dream to the point it's worth saying it's a dream.



No self-awareness to the fact that the same reasons that invalidates all the powers shown in the story are the same when being from a dream having taken physical form. And no, taking form doesn't necessarily mean physical form, as a real dream is super vague, whereas a place where mind and matter intersect can be a mix between real & fake or a more defined dream can stand on its own as a reality while still being a dream, unlike your real life dreams that don't.



My stance is the same as in my other comment that went over the feat, you just assume things you don't know and that are super vague. Surviving a fire that can burn down universe may or may not be Universe level dura, depends on how's the feat. Likewise Environmental Destruction is a thing, a Universe level event may not still have 3-A AP if you remove human-sized parts of it and look at it on their own, and what's Universe level is the whole sum of all the parts of the event, getting weaker and weaker if you remove parts of it.

My stance is the same, all his feats are below what we claim. He's not a timeline in any sense that matters, his body is still flesh, bone & blood, he weights the same, no reason for his AP & dura to be affected by this.

Same stance. Supes can't tell when the entire Universe and Creation is in its dying stages, all the insane P&A he gains from Where is Thy Sting are rejected.

Same stance. Krona doesn't seemingly attack Hal with all the entities, those are constructions on the same colors as the rings he has, the entities are still possessing the other Guardians are we saw before and as they come out of them when freed.

This does matter to be listed, it's not to be 100% ignored. "anyone's interpretation of the comic is as important as his own", if that was a real quote he said, doesn't necessarily mean that it's anyone's interpretation is as canon, but that anyone can enojoy the comic while taking what they will from it, not needing to be exact about it, and fearing that being exact can go against people's takes on things & thus part of the way they enjoy things. The real quote he has can be something along those lines. Is his opinion 100% exact authority? No. But it is worth listing and keeping in mind when organizing everything.



He didn't know the 2nd strongest besides the Presence and has some less care on who's more powerful, that's pretty understandable. It's not shown what he replies to in the second question, it being a generic Vs Dabates quesion is pretty small.



Not powerscale to know "who's more powerful"=/=know if 1 character specifically can destroy the universe, it's not 1 to 1. It's loosely related.

This scaling is a mess, it's not about how consistently they do against each other but scaling to the higher feats if you're close to it and if you're not then sucks for you. That's not how scaling works, you don't avoid characters scaling because stats are too ridiculous for them if they still do consistently well against those that scale, the stats are ridiculous for everyone who scales, cut off the scaling for no reason doesn't make it less ridiculous.

That was unprofessional, it divides attention with too many things to talk about whereas they could have just talked about some feats at a time in 1 thread, have them accepted as outliers for a time (or rejected), then later doing another thread for the rest of the feats, and then get over the scaling. That would have been more organized and concentrated.

You know, you don't have to act so pretentious. You constantly accuse people of being unprofessional, and at the same time, casually address them as frauds and then act like it's ridiculous that this thread even existed. I get that it's how you feel about the feats and that is fine, but you don't have to remind everyone of that on every possible occasion. With statements like "That was unprofessional, it divides attention with too many things to talk about whereas they could have just talked about some feats at a time in 1 thread, have them accepted as outliers for a time (or rejected), then later doing another thread for the rest of the feats, and then get over the scaling. That would have been more organized and concentrated." Now THAT is unprofessional.

 

[Hellbeast]

That was unprofessional, it divides attention with too many things to talk about whereas they could have just talked about some feats at a time in 1 thread, have them accepted as outliers for a time (or rejected), then later doing another thread for the rest of the feats, and then get over the scaling. That would have been more organized and concentrated.

This wasn't suggested by Emirp though right? Or am i misremembering the thread's ebb and flow

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

This wasn't suggested by Emirp though right? Or am i misremembering the thread's ebb and flow

Firestorm's idea, not mine.

 

[Hellbeast]

Yeah so idk why you're getting pulled up by Efi for it though, you simply accommodated a request that got provided and soon turned back.

 

[Firestorm808]

Latest Tally Update: https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5379794

 

[Firestorm808]

That was unprofessional, it divides attention with too many things to talk about whereas they could have just talked about some feats at a time in 1 thread, have them accepted as outliers for a time (or rejected), then later doing another thread for the rest of the feats, and then get over the scaling. That would have been more organized and concentrated.

Place no blame Emirp. I was the one who made the recommendation.

While I personally don't regret recommending that the OP separate the GL and SM feats for discussion, I acknowledge that others may have found it difficult for the final feat verification overview.

As such, I took responsibility and compiled all the staff determinations in one summary post on the original thread.

Moving forward, I will avoid such incidents.

 

[Firestorm808]

@Eficiente

I would refer back to my determinations regarding the context of some of the comics.

• Superman survives the collapse of the universe. (Superman: Where Is Thy Sting, 2001)
  • Firestorm808: Disagree - https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-co...s-discussion-continuation.147384/post-5374004
    • Per the comic panels, the cosmos is going through entropy. Dead stars collapsing inward, their energy sputtering and fading. All things, all matter in creation, dissolving, disintegrating. Stars wink out one by one. In the end, only the black hole from the last star is left with Superman, each nuclear flash weaker than the one before.
    • According to other Staff, surviving the heat death of the universe is a hax feat rather than durability.
    • The point is that Heat Death in general isn't treated as a Tier 3 feat. In the case of Superman, he was with the last black hole from the last star. It's not infinite mass. All other stars have already gone through their black hole phase and faded away to nothingness. Being in the black hole would just be rated Tier 4 AFAIK.
• Starbreaker overpowered the person who merged Universes(Justice League of America Vol. 2 #34, August 2009)
  • Firestorm808: Disagree - Per Dharma, he is not physically holding these universes together. Through his will, he is using the Rift power to merge the universes together.
• A battle between Diana and Cassie makes it seem like the energies of the Universe are erupting and will tear the foundations of reality(Wonder Woman Vol. 2 #156, May 2000)
  • Firestorm808: Somewhat Disagree - That's not Diana or Cassie. That was Amazon Artemis and Devas. Not sure how she got a Godwave sword or if her durability scales to it. Deva did defeat Artemis rather easily.

 

[Hellbeast]

So at this point how many feats do we have that unequivocally fit the standards of the staff? I think I can see 10 or so?

 

[Vasco]

I like this one, it's just a simple, innocent outlier.

Seriously? The thread was meant to upgrade them to such tiers that's why other feats are brought to back them up, mentioning outlier here dosen't make sense.

Mordru criticizes Supes for attacking head-on, Mordru then gets tagged by magic from behind as the attacker brags about how it was an attack from behind (I would think they're trying to justify having been able to achieve this), Supes follows up with a punch. This is just a standard comic outlier, Mordru was taken off-guard, an out load reason was given as to why this was achieved, and he was attacked with magic of unknown effects (could be hax, if so not even an outlier).

He was taken off guard for a little single moment while but is still in battle with superman besides, Superman damaged him easily and made him cough up his teeth same mordru using magic to weaken him still got damaged him easily. She simply attacked him to damage him nothing in the scan indicated hax was used except you've got proof.

Also I don't think Mordru is just always 2-C, possibly 2-A, in his fight with Hector Hall we see a future version of him defeated by regular heroes.

We know nothing about the mordru from the possible future, even you how could you use this as a point to debunk.

Why is it that we claim that SP "Should be as powerful as the original Time Trapper" in his profile?

Probably because he defeated himself since TT is a possible future version of himself.

Back to being disingenuous again, this is a chained up, imprisoned Barbatos, it stands to reason that he would be weaker.

I don't see how being chained and not to be able to anything would seal your durability or have anything on his durability not like any statement was made on it being a magical chain to seal his durability unless you can prove it of course.

This is a black lantern-revived Spectre, he's zombified / rotten / with less durability by the decomposed state he's in.

I'm pretty sure he was stated to be as powerful as when he was alive in this book though this black state seems more like a shell as the real spectre later came out from inside, shown in his battle with parallax.

He could control them as in their actions, he sent them to possess other Guardians. That's not the same as he getting each of their AP added into his own while they also remain their own AP.

A rebunk was made on this, you should check it.

The comparison made is super vague, hit with everything he got can easily refer to the standard levels he works with given how normalized he has to not work with his peak levels.

He also said his going to need some help, and hit her with EVERYTHING his got, I don't understand what you're trying to say here, lmao.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you to all staff and knowledgeable members who are helping out here.

 

[SonicBayo1999]

Geez this is still going on?

 

[Antvasima]

There are a lot of feats to evaluate.

Anyway, which feats have so far been uniformly accepted by all of the staff members who have performed case-by-case evaluations here?

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

There are a lot of feats to evaluate.

Anyway, which feats have so far been uniformly accepted by all of the staff members who have performed case-by-case evaluations here?

Pretty sure Emirp isn't done with defending feats yet

 

[Eficiente]

Now, going over the comments of the thread in order.

Can you post his next appearance where it shows he survived and the page that showed he took the big bang?

I love this bit, that's a standard, reasonable reaction to seeing Kyle Rayner's Zero Hour Big Bang feat.

I can't respond to the rest as I'm not home, so I can't type a proper reply, but here are the scans for Hal and Kyle surviving it and where Hal and Kyle took it.

Ok so he got the same scans I used to dismiss the feat but didn't read them, ig. That would have been understandable as he implied to be busy, but his contributions much later on imply he stopped being busy and nobody else read the scans to know the feat was wrong.

Big Bangs are Low 2-C

Big Bangs are 3-A unless proven otherwise, see the Big Bang page. The BBs that created a timeline are good.

The infinite power fireball is literally stated to have touched Diana's skin, and in Rebirth her bracelets were destroyed by Cheetah with the Godkiller sword, which Diana could endure attacks from, so I'm not sure where that comes from.

No, that's not what it says. "The furious fireball smashes against crossed bracelets buttressed by Amazon muscle..." It says that it reached the bracelets. WW's own strength complements how the bracelets are used, as in with lesser power she would be blown away. "... transmuted by the touch of Amaltheia's skin..." I don't think this user knows who Amalthea is? It says in the comic, she's not WW or the fireball, the text is clearly saying that either the bracelets, WW's muscles when using the bracelets for this feat, or both are "transmuted" (amped) by "Amaltheia's skin" (her powers), it's a tiny bit poetic, perfectly understandable.

Scans and sources for Cheetah doing that? If I just assume everything there is correct then the durability of the Bebirth bracelets is lower, it's that simple with all the power they took.

Kyle being blasted by the Big Bang isn't shown on panel, but it's literally stated they were blown too far away by it, and next time we see Kyle, he's mostly undamaged fighting Parallax.

Idk if the issue is that they didn't read the pages they link or they did read but don't see the things that ruin the feat.

You might think that, but that’s not what the text actually says. It says her muscle reinforced the bracelets, so her durability should scale.

Glad he saw that.

That's never stated anywhere for Cap though. Unless you can provide examples.

Well, in Avengers Vol 3 78 a young adult woman with no powers blocked attacks from Thunderball with Cap's shield (It's actually someone impersonating him with his same powers) to defend an unconscious Cap from being killed. She did badly at that, worst than how Cap would have been able to do it, she was badly damaged regardless of having blocked the attacks, then hospitalized but she couldn't make it and died like a hero. In Avengers Vol 3 79 it's implied that Thunderball held back out of sadism.

Big Bangs are Tier 3 if time existed independently from the Big Bang and Tier 2 if time is dependent on the Big Bang. A Big Bang that creates a timeline will be Low 2-C, one that creates matter will be 3-A to High 3-A if the universe it made is comparable to the IRL one.

Well, that's not how it works. Big Bangs create time, but, in short, time can refer to the present time (Like if you ask what time it is?) or all of time from start to finish (The timeline), if the time created by the Big Bang goes as in the former, it's 3-A. And one really needs to be careful about it as if characters are teleported to "the present" then it will look like the timeline was created, when it's just time having happened on its own since the Big Bang.

No, the Roman and Greek gods fighting in New Olympus is not what caused the near destruction of the universe. You being “pretty sure it’s the latter” doesn’t mean a whole lot when you haven’t even read the comic.

Again, that’s not what happened. Even by reading the summary on DC wiki that you’re getting all your info from, literally nothing says that the battle between the Greek and Roman gods is what caused the near destruction of the universe. The destruction was still going to happen even after the gods stopped fighting each other. Stop making claims that are unsupported by the text, especially when you haven’t actually read the comic.

I'm glad I went over the feat as I did in my comment about it.

- In discussion

Huh, I imagined it meant "Dubious feat". Ok.

“Infinite power” by itself means at least High 3-A power assuming the statement isn’t poetic or just an arrogant character boasting.

According to how our Tiering System works you don’t need to be the strongest character in your series to have infinite power, either.

Well yeah but the standard is to assume it's poetic due to how common of a hyperbole it is, not to mention how it can mean that power can always be used w/o ending as a resource.

Though I'm not also convinced but I'd remind you half of infinity is still infinity, he dosen't need to empty his power source for 1 attack if it's infinite plus that goes against the infinite energy also if it can go empty, CB said he can take control of the energy and use it how he likes.
I'm also iffy on this.

Ok so this is a common error when truely infinite things are dealt and a verse does something that affects parts of it, users always assume it had to be as in a percentage, thus meaning that it was an infinite part as a percentage of infinite is infinite. But often time there is no proof of this. Child Brainiac has this power source, thus he uses part of its power, nowhere does it say that it has to be half of all of it. If our universe was infinite and you could draw power from its infinite space then you wouldn't necessarily be able to attack with High 3-A AP by using an infinite amount of power gained from that, you would gain some unknown amount of power while always being able to draw more.

Isn't a Phantom Zone/Underworld a realm in the sphere of gods? That alone makes it bigger than universes.

Anything of any size can be in the Sphere of Gods or any h. dimensional realm, doesn't mean they're as complex as the place they're in.

Most of the Phantom zone is nothingness but you're right it wasn't due to s single punch but rather the fight between him and Zaar plus Superman later states he can destroy the dimension.

Wait, how many statements of the PZ being mostly nothingness are they? Maybe if we cover them all it turns out that the amount of matter in it is way to little next to its full size, as a worry for future reference.

It's possible, since Ion a cosmic force that's connected to the infinite multiverse as it's will itself of the DC multiverse.
And we know what lanterns have done with this will.

Further proof or supprting evidence ion indeed has infinite power, "The power of the Universe flowing through me" statement made just by having Ion's power.

Well, I said in another comment what I think of supporting evidence like that.

We know wally is powerful enough even wally himself should know how powerful he is already and MT was talking based on potential and standard

No, he told him that he doesn't understand how powerful he is and Flash's reply was to ask what was he talking about, this is clearly a potential not reached yet, not standard, Wally clearly doesn't know about this.

besides it's already established the speed force contains infinite energy

This in no way refutes how further talk about this may still refer to the Speed Force.

plus wally few issues before the book had a new special connection to the Speed Force called the "surge" iirc, and stomped a full speed force amped savitar by having his own special raw connection to it(same Savitar can cause an environmental destruction that can destroy the Omniverse).

Having a powerup refutes nothing, maybe Mr Terrific refers that his base can become even more powerful or that Flash with the powerup has more power to unleash. There is always more power to gained if someone says "you can become even stronger".

Of course moving at lightspeed grants infinite mass but MT wasn't talking about that but Power,

Infinite joules is power though.

and made it clear Wally can destroy the world then mention countless lives, he didn't say billions if the world end up destroyed so it's safe to assume he meant the Universe and not earth.

No, this is completely unreasonable.

Could this work? This scan might be a little too flowery but still better than nothing

Not bad at all. Yes it definitely seems like a flowery hyperbole, but I'm willing to say it possibly isn't, and thus it possibly stands on its own as an outlier.

Reading the comic the narration is shown to be poetic at a few parts, which diminishes the credibility of the feat even more.

In physics the mass of an object becomes infinite when at lightspeed, same thing here at accelerating towards lightspeed his mass also approaches infinity, so at lightspeed it's infinite.

Replace infinity in the text with a place, any place; accelerating towards X place doesn't mean you reached it, just that you're a bit closer than how you were before.

I was told in this thread Universes are accepted as infinite.

Well, you don't understand. Power with relation of an infinite universe=/=High 3-A, too. Because power with relation of anything doesn't share its same tier or the tier needed to one-shot it unless proven.

Can I see scans of this, for future purposes.

No I meant DC's rules on paradoxes and contradictions in a timeline established by the comic where the "feat" happens, not something taken from other comics. This is on its own the universe destroying itself by its own comic rules.

I thought destruction of a Universe and recreating it also is Low 2-C since you are destroying and recreating time as well.

I went above in this comment over "time".

Low 2-C: Universe level+

Characters or objects that are capable of significantly affecting[1], creating and/or destroying an area of space that is qualitatively larger than an infinitely-sized 3-dimensional space. Common fictional examples of spaces representing such sizes are space-time continuums (the entire past, present and future of 3-dimensional space) of a universal scale. However, it can be more generally fulfilled by any 4-dimensional space that is either:

They shattered the boundaries of space-time and changed timelines.
●Easily Low 2-C.

Edit: Affecting timelines is infact 2-C.

This is like the 7º time I have to explain this on the wiki. What the ref of that text means is that any manipulation in the [universe, multiverse, whatever] needs evidence to be comparable to destroy or create the [universe, multiverse, whatever] to gain a tier for it, I was going to change it but I never had the time to finish that, the many big time changes for the wiki that came after it not helping.

"Shattered the boundaries of space-time" is nothing, you don't even know what that is. A tiny change in a timeline changes the whole thing via butterfly effect, changing what people do & how places are in the whole planet Earth and even events in the whole universe is bigger stuff, but it still takes an infinitesimal space next to the rest of the universe.

This is how you could get a tier from something like that: "Character A creates Cosmic Changes. A Cosmic Change has enough power to detroy the timeline. A week later, character B became able to do a Cosmic Change." So since it's the same made up thing established to have that set power, it has that set power. There is likely going to be a bunch of poetic and/or meaningless text about how the nature of the universe could change, which is all worthless tier wise if it doesn't give us anything to work with.

Regarding the space and time feat...

How do you explain them hitting each other so hard they're seeing events from the others life not shattering the boundaries of space and time, given the context?

Like, I haven't seen anyone try to brush it off as weird space-time hax. It's legitimate AP, this is all from them hitting one another.

Even if the universe was destabilized, how can you assume it's to the point where 4-B characters can affect it?

I hope this user read my comments about the feat.

Superman did admit he was afraid to fight Manhunter, so, that should be worth something.

I always wanted to comment on the topic of MMH's power compared to Supes'; A one point MHH fought Doomsday and the latter catched a punch as he said "You have power. But you are no Superman." as he overpowered him. So, solid portrayal of MMH<Supes. We 100% know this is about power. What about that known scan of Supes not wanting to fight MMH? Does it contradict by making them even or even with MMH being superior? Well, no, they are already comparable, and MMH's basic P&A are OP AF. What Supes said is perfectly understandable with MMH being a bit weaker.

The scan shows he is near it.

Looking and the scan again and reading the comic my stance changes 100%. I got it wrong, the little dude wasn't there taking the Big Bang with a shield as I read in this thread and just accepted, he's using a time-viewer (as it says in the scan) to view the event as it was all around himself.

also, the universe is infinite, it would be high uni

Yeah I'm pretty sure when you reach the ranges of High 3-A distance doesn't matter anyway

I as said, idk what thread accepted that and I asked for a link. Idk what are the rules on this, in the rejected Marvel thread that aimed to do the same they used some bs video claiming how a universe can be infinite and finite at once, and we know DC's universe has edges and a center (I got so many of those statements from evaluating this thread alone), meaning that yes, distance does matter if the same thing was claimed for DC. You still can't have your cake and eat it too unless the way we do things was to ignore all finite things about the DC universe as outliers.

3-A: Universe level
Characters or objects that can create or destroy all celestial bodies within a finite 3-D space

Also, assuming they are 'pocket universes' would just be headcannon, unless you have anything that backs it up.

This, Creation isn't always equivalent to AP but in cases where there's a UES or if it's equivalent to AP it can be used iirc.

My bad, I meant it's a Creation feat in AP, in a way that regular attacks and durability doesn't scale to. This was a recognizable mistake.

Its Circe, not Cirge.

Idk why I changed her name regardless of the times I read it, that was a silly mistake from my part.

Could this count? Now, it would sound like a hyperbole on its own, but note that Clark explicitly states he's stronger than he ever was, and the pre crisis continuity got returned for the multiverse. Not to mention that iirc one of the authors said they're bringing Superman back to his more silver age iteration
Action Comics 1050

He's not wrong to say that, it doesn't mean he's as strong as a version of himself from another universe.

In the same panel, he quite literally states that he is control over the energy, and proceeds to elaborate further that he can mold it, shape it and even expand it at will, etc.

Yes, he has control over it.

I don't see how a character who talks odd would change anything. The fact it's stated to be an Anti-Universe would make it High 3-A in size, as we already accept the DC universe to be High 3-A in size as well. Furthermore, in Adventure Comics 11 (July, 2010), Mon states the Phantom Zone to be endless, and the Phantom Zone is called endless once again, in Action Comics Vol 1 Annual 11 (July, 2008)

Superman literally states "The Phantom Zone" to be the one that's shaking, not just the area surrounding him. It's very straightforward. And even if it took multiple punches, it's still be High 3-A, as you can't divide such a thing.

Ok but what's an "unregion"? That first "endless" claim is particularly hyerbolic.

You can say that something refers to something X and actually refer to a smaller area within it rather than the whole of something X, we can tell those cases by context. I said that Supes likely did as much by the context of the earthquakes in the distance.

1) Why would it be poetic? 2) It's referring to the Green Lantern rings being conduits to the Green Power, which are stated to be Infinite. 3) Why would them having limits debunk them having High 3-A power, when we know High 3-A is far from the strongest thing in DC. Also Lantern rings can also be affected depending on how much willpower the user has or their own ring charge. 4) What has that got to do with anything? The comic is literally all caps.

1) "I'm only a man. Finite and imperfect. But the third finger of my right hand is a conduit to infinity. And as long as the green power flows along that conduit, I will always be something more, and something less, than a man. But man or no man, I'll never be completely alone... ...as long as I have the road."

"I'm only a man. Finite and imperfect." States the obvious, he means to look in shame for his flaws, "finite" goes as in his inability to do more. Also nobody talks like this.

"But the third finger of my right hand is a conduit to infinity" Again nobody talks like this. Rather than give an exact, easy-to-follow description of his gimmick, he wastes time to be overcomplicated about it. "Infinity" refers the the more power the ring gives him.

"And as long as the green power flows along that conduit," Again nobody talks like that and he's being overcomplicated about it.

"I will always be something more, and something less, than a man. But man or no man," As before. He's going to be more due to having more power and less flaws, and idk why he's going to be less, ig he thinks it sounds cool.

"I'll never be completely alone... ...as long as I have the road." He will be alone in a literal sense if he has the road, the road will only make him feel not alone.

Imagine a voice actor is going to say this and somebody pays you to give them direction, what tips and insight can you contribute?

2) I meant that even if the full GL energy was infinite, being a conduit to it=/=having High 3-A AP. 3) Showing finite uses debunks being infinite, simple as that. It doesn't matter if they're far from the strongest thing in DC. Standard portrayals of their power matter, if at random doing non-AP things with the ring makes it tire its energy then no infinite power, if the infinite power is pointed to cases when the user has more will then we should be able to recognize that, if the infinite power is pointed to cases where the ring had a higher % of its power then we should be able to recognize which % is below their infinite power. 4) Had to say it as some point, it's too bad I only said it once. Comics are not always all in caps, and we mostly talk w/o caps minus exceptions, but what those were for this thread was made up rather than leaving things as they were.

The comic is referring to the power Mogo has finally gotten back and had once possessed, not anything to do with his self sustenance.

Looking back at it, all the text around is super poetic. I could have made the reply to the "feat" better.

We've covered that in here. And their creation feats absolutely scale to their AP. They literally fight others with the same energy they use to build things.

I disagree, no reason for all the energy used to create the universe to grow in real-sized rather than the real-sized ring using real-sized energy to create something smaller that is more detailing when shrinking inside it. Those rings create things with green energy, those things have their own powers & stuff, creating a universe isn't the same.

Why would it being a casual conversation even matter.

It lessens the care and precision put to it down to potentially whatever is understood by both friends and to keep the flow.

Nero states he could bend the universe to his will in that same panel, which would imply the power in relation to the universe would scale to AP.

I take more likely that he means that he can bend/control the power of the universe that is now flowing in his body, as in that he doesn't just have it but he can control it, not that "it" means the universe. I don't think he wants to literally bend the universe, that's dumb. Poetically doing so isn't, and the next bit is "The gods cry out for me to ascend to my throne!", so.

He's using powerful in the same context as he's describe Superman being powerful, and him being uncertain doesn't matter. He's certain Wally has infinite power, but isn't certain he's above Superman, therefore Superman must be at least somewhat comparable and can't be infinitely weaker

They are even in power when Supes' at peak and Flash's at that level, so yeah.

1. WW being superior to the gods here wouldn't contradict much as the Gods themselves can vary in power depending on how much belief they have.
2. The scans stated that the braces were buttressed by Amazon muscle, Diana clearly helped with the feat.

1. This tells us nothing, you also need to prove that at that point on that their power was weaker than WW's, you can't just say that they vary and therefore it doesn't contradict.
2. I went over this above. It's not binary, WW helped in a way that it still doesn't scale to her own physical stats. I obviously don't believe that if you place the bracelets along where WW used them then they will do the job fine w/o her, I believe that this godly made things have the mechanic of needing force from a user that will be weaker than their durability as the bracelets' purpose is protection.

Approaching infinity, while approaching lightspeed would mean that Infinity and lightspeed are interchangeable in this context. And Zoom literally punches Diana at lightspeed.

The other things I said on this feat cover this.

There's a reason called downscaling you know, also "Low 2-C divided is still Low 2-C, so the fractions of it shown don't matter" is literally the standard. It's something you simply cannot divide no matter what.

We literally explained this in the OP.

In part I went over this before. I'm aware of downscaling, what I said is what I find more sensical.

All the damage to the timestream before was done by Infinite Man's power as well, it's not that the timestream was weakened by something else, it's all attributable to him. That's what the whole comic is about. The Paradox point seems irrelevant and I'm not sure what you're trying to prove with it.

It's not binary, this is meaningless to the fact that paradoxes and contradictions cause the universe to f*ck itself up.

 

[Swerzye29038]

Big Bangs are Low 2-C

Question, why are big bangs Low 2-C? Is this how big bangs are portrayed in DC Comics? Because from a scientific perspective the big bang is certainly not Low 2-C.

 

[Swerzye29038]

This thread sure moved on a bit since I went to sleep. I'll respond to a few key points above since I have a few things to do.

As explained before, Universe stuff is H3A due to the high amounts of Infinite Universe statements. The Big Bang stuff is put in L2C because it created space and time (Zero Hour #0), and in ZH, it recreated the entire timeline.

I see

 

[Firestorm808]

Big Bang

To quote from Wikipedia: "The Big Bang is the cosmological model of the universe, originally conceived to describe its origins, that is best supported by all cosmological observations. The essential idea is that the universe has expanded from a primordial hot and dense initial condition at some...

vsbattles.fandom.com

"Surviving a Low 2-C Big Bang isn't a Universe level+ feat in durability due to the non-physical nature of such an event."

 

[It_is_i_wyatt]

"due to the non-physical nature of such an event."

huh?

 

[SonicBayo1999]

There are a lot of feats to evaluate.

I can see that lmfao

 

[Guacamolefletcher]

This does matter to be listed, it's not to be 100% ignored. "anyone's interpretation of the comic is as important as his own", if that was a real quote he said, doesn't necessarily mean that it's anyone's interpretation is as canon, but that anyone can enojoy the comic while taking what they will from it, not needing to be exact about it, and fearing that being exact can go against people's takes on things & thus part of the way they enjoy things. The real quote he has can be something along those lines. Is his opinion 100% exact authority? No. But it is worth listing and keeping in mind when organizing everything.

This is really bad.

What he's saying is it's OUR JOB to create an interpretation based on the story. Holding him on a false pedestal that he doesn't want to be held to for the sake of downplaying strong characters is actually wrong.

 

[Guacamolefletcher]

This scaling is a mess, it's not about how consistently they do against each other but scaling to the higher feats if you're close to it and if you're not then sucks for you. That's not how scaling works, you don't avoid characters scaling because stats are too ridiculous for them if they still do consistently well against those that scale, the stats are ridiculous for everyone who scales, cut off the scaling for no reason doesn't make it less ridiculous.

No argument as to why so hitchen's razor.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

Now, going over the comments of the thread in order.

I love this bit, that's a standard, reasonable reaction to seeing Kyle Rayner's Zero Hour Big Bang feat.

Ok so he got the same scans I used to dismiss the feat but didn't read them, ig. That would have been understandable as he implied to be busy, but his contributions much later on imply he stopped being busy and nobody else read the scans to know the feat was wrong.

Big Bangs are 3-A unless proven otherwise, see the Big Bang page. The BBs that created a timeline are good.

No, that's not what it says. "The furious fireball smashes against crossed bracelets buttressed by Amazon muscle..." It says that it reached the bracelets. WW's own strength complements how the bracelets are used, as in with lesser power she would be blown away. "... transmuted by the touch of Amaltheia's skin..." I don't think this user knows who Amalthea is? It says in the comic, she's not WW or the fireball, the text is clearly saying that either the bracelets, WW's muscles when using the bracelets for this feat, or both are "transmuted" (amped) by "Amaltheia's skin" (her powers), it's a tiny bit poetic, perfectly understandable.

Scans and sources for Cheetah doing that? If I just assume everything there is correct then the durability of the Bebirth bracelets is lower, it's that simple with all the power they took.

Idk if the issue is that they didn't read the pages they link or they did read but don't see the things that ruin the feat.

Glad he saw that.

Well, in Avengers Vol 3 78 a young adult woman with no powers blocked attacks from Thunderball with Cap's shield (It's actually someone impersonating him with his same powers) to defend an unconscious Cap from being killed. She did badly at that, worst than how Cap would have been able to do it, she was badly damaged regardless of having blocked the attacks, then hospitalized but she couldn't make it and died like a hero. In Avengers Vol 3 79 it's implied that Thunderball held back out of sadism.

Well, that's not how it works. Big Bangs create time, but, in short, time can refer to the present time (Like if you ask what time it is?) or all of time from start to finish (The timeline), if the time created by the Big Bang goes as in the former, it's 3-A. And one really needs to be careful about it as if characters are teleported to "the present" then it will look like the timeline was created, when it's just time having happened on its own since the Big Bang.

I'm glad I went over the feat as I did in my comment about it.

Huh, I imagined it meant "Dubious feat". Ok.

Well yeah but the standard is to assume it's poetic due to how common of a hyperbole it is, not to mention how it can mean that power can always be used w/o ending as a resource.

Ok so this is a common error when truely infinite things are dealt and a verse does something that affects parts of it, users always assume it had to be as in a percentage, thus meaning that it was an infinite part as a percentage of infinite is infinite. But often time there is no proof of this. Child Brainiac has this power source, thus he uses part of its power, nowhere does it say that it has to be half of all of it. If our universe was infinite and you could draw power from its infinite space then you wouldn't necessarily be able to attack with High 3-A AP by using an infinite amount of power gained from that, you would gain some unknown amount of power while always being able to draw more.

Anything of any size can be in the Sphere of Gods or any h. dimensional realm, doesn't mean they're as complex as the place they're in.

Wait, how many statements of the PZ being mostly nothingness are they? Maybe if we cover them all it turns out that the amount of matter in it is way to little next to its full size, as a worry for future reference.

Well, I said in another comment what I think of supporting evidence like that.

No, he told him that he doesn't understand how powerful he is and Flash's reply was to ask what was he talking about, this is clearly a potential not reached yet, not standard, Wally clearly doesn't know about this.

This in no way refutes how further talk about this may still refer to the Speed Force.

Having a powerup refutes nothing, maybe Mr Terrific refers that his base can become even more powerful or that Flash with the powerup has more power to unleash. There is always more power to gained if someone says "you can become even stronger".

Infinite joules is power though.

No, this is completely unreasonable.

Not bad at all. Yes it definitely seems like a flowery hyperbole, but I'm willing to say it possibly isn't, and thus it possibly stands on its own as an outlier.

Reading the comic the narration is shown to be poetic at a few parts, which diminishes the credibility of the feat even more.

Replace infinity in the text with a place, any place; accelerating towards X place doesn't mean you reached it, just that you're a bit closer than how you were before.

Well, you don't understand. Power with relation of an infinite universe=/=High 3-A, too. Because power with relation of anything doesn't share its same tier or the tier needed to one-shot it unless proven.

No I meant DC's rules on paradoxes and contradictions in a timeline established by the comic where the "feat" happens, not something taken from other comics. This is on its own the universe destroying itself by its own comic rules.

I went above in this comment over "time".

This is like the 7º time I have to explain this on the wiki. What the ref of that text means is that any manipulation in the [universe, multiverse, whatever] needs evidence to be comparable to destroy or create the [universe, multiverse, whatever] to gain a tier for it, I was going to change it but I never had the time to finish that, the many big time changes for the wiki that came after it not helping.

"Shattered the boundaries of space-time" is nothing, you don't even know what that is. A tiny change in a timeline changes the whole thing via butterfly effect, changing what people do & how places are in the whole planet Earth and even events in the whole universe is bigger stuff, but it still takes an infinitesimal space next to the rest of the universe.

This is how you could get a tier from something like that: "Character A creates Cosmic Changes. A Cosmic Change has enough power to detroy the timeline. A week later, character B became able to do a Cosmic Change." So since it's the same made up thing established to have that set power, it has that set power. There is likely going to be a bunch of poetic and/or meaningless text about how the nature of the universe could change, which is all worthless tier wise if it doesn't give us anything to work with.

I hope this user read my comments about the feat.

I always wanted to comment on the topic of MMH's power compared to Supes'; A one point MHH fought Doomsday and the latter catched a punch as he said "You have power. But you are no Superman." as he overpowered him. So, solid portrayal of MMH<Supes. We 100% know this is about power. What about that known scan of Supes not wanting to fight MMH? Does it contradict by making them even or even with MMH being superior? Well, no, they are already comparable, and MMH's basic P&A are OP AF. What Supes said is perfectly understandable with MMH being a bit weaker.

Looking and the scan again and reading the comic my stance changes 100%. I got it wrong, the little dude wasn't there taking the Big Bang with a shield as I read in this thread and just accepted, he's using a time-viewer (as it says in the scan) to view the event as it was all around himself.


I as said, idk what thread accepted that and I asked for a link. Idk what are the rules on this, in the rejected Marvel thread that aimed to do the same they used some bs video claiming how a universe can be infinite and finite at once, and we know DC's universe has edges and a center (I got so many of those statements from evaluating this thread alone), meaning that yes, distance does matter if the same thing was claimed for DC. You still can't have your cake and eat it too unless the way we do things was to ignore all finite things about the DC universe as outliers.


My bad, I meant it's a Creation feat in AP, in a way that regular attacks and durability doesn't scale to. This was a recognizable mistake.

Idk why I changed her name regardless of the times I read it, that was a silly mistake from my part.

He's not wrong to say that, it doesn't mean he's as strong as a version of himself from another universe.

Yes, he has control over it.

Ok but what's an "unregion"? That first "endless" claim is particularly hyerbolic.

You can say that something refers to something X and actually refer to a smaller area within it rather than the whole of something X, we can tell those cases by context. I said that Supes likely did as much by the context of the earthquakes in the distance.

1) "I'm only a man. Finite and imperfect. But the third finger of my right hand is a conduit to infinity. And as long as the green power flows along that conduit, I will always be something more, and something less, than a man. But man or no man, I'll never be completely alone... ...as long as I have the road."

"I'm only a man. Finite and imperfect." States the obvious, he means to look in shame for his flaws, "finite" goes as in his inability to do more. Also nobody talks like this.

"But the third finger of my right hand is a conduit to infinity" Again nobody talks like this. Rather than give an exact, easy-to-follow description of his gimmick, he wastes time to be overcomplicated about it. "Infinity" refers the the more power the ring gives him.

"And as long as the green power flows along that conduit," Again nobody talks like that and he's being overcomplicated about it.

"I will always be something more, and something less, than a man. But man or no man," As before. He's going to be more due to having more power and less flaws, and idk why he's going to be less, ig he thinks it sounds cool.

"I'll never be completely alone... ...as long as I have the road." He will be alone in a literal sense if he has the road, the road will only make him feel not alone.

Imagine a voice actor is going to say this and somebody pays you to give them direction, what tips and insight can you contribute?

2) I meant that even if the full GL energy was infinite, being a conduit to it=/=having High 3-A AP. 3) Showing finite uses debunks being infinite, simple as that. It doesn't matter if they're far from the strongest thing in DC. Standard portrayals of their power matter, if at random doing non-AP things with the ring makes it tire its energy then no infinite power, if the infinite power is pointed to cases when the user has more will then we should be able to recognize that, if the infinite power is pointed to cases where the ring had a higher % of its power then we should be able to recognize which % is below their infinite power. 4) Had to say it as some point, it's too bad I only said it once. Comics are not always all in caps, and we mostly talk w/o caps minus exceptions, but what those were for this thread was made up rather than leaving things as they were.

Looking back at it, all the text around is super poetic. I could have made the reply to the "feat" better.

I disagree, no reason for all the energy used to create the universe to grow in real-sized rather than the real-sized ring using real-sized energy to create something smaller that is more detailing when shrinking inside it. Those rings create things with green energy, those things have their own powers & stuff, creating a universe isn't the same.

It lessens the care and precision put to it down to potentially whatever is understood by both friends and to keep the flow.

I take more likely that he means that he can bend/control the power of the universe that is now flowing in his body, as in that he doesn't just have it but he can control it, not that "it" means the universe. I don't think he wants to literally bend the universe, that's dumb. Poetically doing so isn't, and the next bit is "The gods cry out for me to ascend to my throne!", so.

They are even in power when Supes' at peak and Flash's at that level, so yeah.

1. This tells us nothing, you also need to prove that at that point on that their power was weaker than WW's, you can't just say that they vary and therefore it doesn't contradict.
2. I went over this above. It's not binary, WW helped in a way that it still doesn't scale to her own physical stats. I obviously don't believe that if you place the bracelets along where WW used them then they will do the job fine w/o her, I believe that this godly made things have the mechanic of needing force from a user that will be weaker than their durability as the bracelets' purpose is protection.

The other things I said on this feat cover this.

In part I went over this before. I'm aware of downscaling, what I said is what I find more sensical.

It's not binary, this is meaningless to the fact that paradoxes and contradictions cause the universe to f*ck itself up.

He's not wrong to say that, it doesn't mean he's as strong as a version of himself from another universe.

First of all, the pre-crisis has been long restored. Second of all, he literally states he's beyond space-time now. And no, this isn't even a flowery statement, in the same sentence, he says that he can cross distances that cease to be distance, which he immediately proves by coming back from Lex's BFR with a wormhole

 

[Firestorm808]

Let's not get ahead of ourselves. Post-Death Metal is another bag of worms to deal with.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

Let's not get ahead of ourselves. Post-Death Metal is another bag of worms to deal with.

Yeah, I prefer we try avoid Infinite Frontier era stuff for now since we don't have enough info on whether guys like Supes scale to their Pre Crisis selves or not

 

[Vasco]

Anything of any size can be in the Sphere of Gods or any h. dimensional realm, doesn't mean they're as complex as the place they're in.

Phantom Zone/Underworld isn't smaller than a universe, most statements make it atleast comparable to other realms in the sphere though.

Wait, how many statements of the PZ being mostly nothingness are they? Maybe if we cover them all it turns out that the amount of matter in it is way to little next to its full size, as a worry for future reference.

So far i've seen just 2 statement of it mentioned to be nothingness, 2 mentioned to be endless one was even posted above and 1 of it being called a dimension without dimensions and in the sphere of gods literally the realms are shown to be the same size according to the map.

Well, I said in another comment what I think of supporting evidence like that.

You agree with supporting evidences like that or not? Sorry if I didn't see it since I just skim through the thread time to time.

No, he told him that he doesn't understand how powerful he is and Flash's reply was to ask what was he talking about, this is clearly a potential not reached yet, not standard, Wally clearly doesn't know about this.

Just so you know, there's also another statement by Wally after defeating a Vampire superman he said if its his own universe superman, he isn't sure if he'd win if they were to fight despite easily folding that other version of superman.

MT told him he might actually be more powerful than Superman then wally said what are you talking about. Do you expect Wally to reply with of course or i agree with you? That's definitely the obvious reply to the question.

Besides at the end of everything MT said Wally agreed with him, also what he mentioned isn't about potential since Wally can legit do all those things.

This in no way refutes how further talk about this may still refer to the Speed Force.

We all know Speedsters powers are from the Speed Force or most of them, so when he said he had incalculable power and infinite power in him we all know he meant the raw speed force energy he gained in Flash annual that made him even more powerful than an amped savitar with almost full power of the speed force.

Having a powerup refutes nothing, maybe Mr Terrific refers that his base can become even more powerful or that Flash with the powerup has more power to unleash. There is always more power to gained if someone says "you can become even stronger".

Wally isn't a type of saiyan with multiple forms, surge is just a special raw connection only Wally has, also its funny cause even superman has this statement about being stronger also in post rebirth.

No, this is completely unreasonable.

Nop it's the most reasonable that's why I made it my final comment, you just don't have a counter to it.

Replace infinity in the text with a place, any place; accelerating towards X place doesn't mean you reached it, just that you're a bit closer than how you were before.

Yes, and read my comment above again.

Well, you don't understand. Power with relation of an infinite universe=/=High 3-A, too. Because power with relation of anything doesn't share its same tier or the tier needed to one-shot it unless proven.

Agreed.

"Shattered the boundaries of space-time" is nothing, you don't even know what that is.

I personally interpreted it as affecting beyond the normal universe's space-time or shattering the limits of the known universe space-time or another interpretation ,basically what hold them together.

Shattered the boundaries of space-time" is nothing, you don't even know what that is. A tiny change in a timeline changes the whole thing via butterfly effect, changing what people do & how places are in the whole planet Earth and even events in the whole universe is bigger stuff, but it still takes an infinitesimal space next to the rest of the universe.

Agnaa said distortion and warping qualifies as affecting, didn't they distort the space-time?

He's not wrong to say that, it doesn't mean he's as strong as a version of himself from another universe.

He has all previous histories of himself as 1 and the pre-crisis universe was revived.

Where's @Ehnkr2beboh ? He hasn't seen available since last week.

 

[Lord_Farquaad69420]

I as said, idk what thread accepted that and I asked for a link. Idk what are the rules on this, in the rejected Marvel thread that aimed to do the same they used some bs video claiming how a universe can be infinite and finite at once, and we know DC's universe has edges and a center (I got so many of those statements from evaluating this thread alone), meaning that yes, distance does matter if the same thing was claimed for DC. You still can't have your cake and eat it too unless the way we do things was to ignore all finite things about the DC universe as outliers.

https://vsbattles.com/threads/infinite-sized-dc-comics-universes.137199/ this one

 

[Mariogoods]

I have a little question: most of the justifications have stated things like "infinite power", but I'm not sure if such statement alone is enough for High 3-A.

 

[Vasco]

I have a little question: most of the justifications have stated things like "infinite power", but I'm not sure if such statement alone is enough for High 3-A.

Some of them were probably meant to used for supporting evidence.

 

[Eficiente]

Another potential feat - Raven claims her powers are enough to destroy a universe

New Teen Titans (1988) issue #66

Well, I'm naturally skeptical as I watched the show version where white Raven is an amp and she's like a portal to summon Trigon to threaten the universe, and here she says "within me were contained foces great enough to destroy a universe.". She says "were", she doesn't have that anymore.

Looking into this she used to be possessed by Trigon and have his power, then she got possessed by Azar, but she got back to a relatively normal state.

Also, Belial, Suge and Ruskoff survive sitting in a room with millions of universes crushing around and through them
Phantom Stranger (2012) #6

I remember this feat being rejected, hopefully somebody remembers the reasons.

You know, you don't have to act so pretentious. You constantly accuse people of being unprofessional, and at the same time, casually address them as frauds and then act like it's ridiculous that this thread even existed. I get that it's how you feel about the feats and that is fine, but you don't have to remind everyone of that on every possible occasion. With statements like "That was unprofessional, it divides attention with too many things to talk about whereas they could have just talked about some feats at a time in 1 thread, have them accepted as outliers for a time (or rejected), then later doing another thread for the rest of the feats, and then get over the scaling. That would have been more organized and concentrated." Now THAT is unprofessional.

I'm gonna go over why this is a poor way to take criticism. It's fine if you don't talk back, but please don't be dismissive about my comment and do analyze what I have to say:

You know, you don't have to act so pretentious.

You don't end up backing up how you think I act pretentious in any meaningful way. It's not just being critical and annoying, to be pretentious I actually have to have no idea of what I'm talking about, otherwise this just a vague feeling/thing that sounds like it could be said against me.

You constantly accuse people of being unprofessional

1) I called things unprofessional like 4 times, and I don't remember calling any user that rather than a specific action I cover at the moment. 2) That is something anyone's allowed to do, freely. Heck you even do so in your own comment but ig only me doing it is bad as I did so more times. Again anyone's free to call things unprofessional, and I went over like 40 things here, do you believe that anyone should just keep quiet about everything they find unprofessional if they cover things that long? No, that's a horrible normalization to support, people should able to call things out unprofessional even if they were to find half of everything unprofessional. It's not a me thing/a thing that "it can be done, but you're an asshole if you do it", it's just standard. I conclude things and I say them with the reasons that made me conclude them being shown in a clear way.

and at the same time, casually address them as frauds

I did that once. Also define "casually", if you meant like the effort to type the word, sure, if you meant anything else, which you most likely did, then you're wrong. I read over the comic where the feat happens, I found the portrayal of the feat to be missing of a lot of context that happens in the comic that, to put it simply, is what we would write in a profile if the feat has accepted, and I concluded that no genuine user would submit the feat w/o actively, purposely ignoring the info that ruins the feat. Big of a claim as it might be, you do realize that real frauds aren't always caught up with solid evidence of them being frauds and need to be understood as such by context? And that people need to called them out first? I apologized for calling X user who submitted the feat a fraud, but at the same time, I consider that the reaction to it was an overreaction that would fit better if my reasons to say that were nonsensical.

then act like it's ridiculous that this thread even existed

Well, no I didn't. I was underwhelmed by the premise of the 2-A upgrade by the thread so far but that's not the same. If feats are correct then great, if consistent stuff happens, if not they stay archived as outliers, maybe to be used later. I gave "no"s to things individually, I didn't expect to give that many, and even then they still have value in being archived. Also, imagine I say that someone acts like it's ridiculous that something I did even existed, like 5 comments would go over how I have no reason to say that, that I shouldn't/can't assume that and that it's uncalled for.

I get that it's how you feel about the feats and that is fine, but you don't have to remind everyone of that on every possible occasion.

Well, minor but I conclude things rather than feeling them, which may be what you meant. This thread isn't "1 big thing" to be analyzed", this thread is "like 40 things to be analyzed"; if it were the former, what you say would make perfect sense, but it isn't, this is you expressing that most of the criticism I had to give should rather not exist, in part if not entirely because it makes people feel bad. I conclude (not a vague feeling) based on what I read here that it would be news to say that I don't just copy-paste mean criticism over and over in the like 40 things I went over, each thing that I deemed worth criticizing was its own world, I put care to be detailed in what their separated issues were. I'm not gonna put in a text doc all the criticism that's similar, avoid saying it, and then later say that X, X, X, X & X things have Z thing wrong so that the bad feelings it gives having dared to say that only come out once, that would be nonsensical and vague due to generalizing, and there is no reason to do it because those bad feelings are just an unhealthy reaction that needs to be overcome.

With statements like "That was unprofessional, it divides attention with too many things to talk about whereas they could have just talked about some feats at a time in 1 thread, have them accepted as outliers for a time (or rejected), then later doing another thread for the rest of the feats, and then get over the scaling. That would have been more organized and concentrated." Now THAT is unprofessional.

You might have noticed this by the comments below yours but that was a perfectly rational thing to criticize; a big decision was done that affects the way we did things in a negative way in a way that was fairly foreseeable. I didn't know who made the decision but it was read, understood, and it likely won't happen again, simple as that. Idk what your issue is with that bold part of the text; if a feat is wrong, it doesn't matter, if it's an outlier, it's correct, but it isn't consistent enough to be added at least yet. It's still a pretty big deal.
---
How many people had the same or a comparable reaction to what I said? (Misremembering things, don't liking how I point the issues on things, having personal opinions not based that worsens me.) They're not gonna like it but if an equivalent of a sequel of this thread ever comes out an equivalent of the same comments I gave will follow, fitting to what I conclude at the time. Remember the 2 questions about frauds I gave above? Replace "fraud" with any of the other things I did say a lot (like something being disingenuous) and the same applies. That is something anyone can say they understand, but if they're relatively young it's understood even better over time. This is just a feeling I have that I don't take as factual, but people might have built a community with a toxic realationship to claims like that in how they react to them, whereas it's immensely important to over time have normalized to understand them in a rational and not overly emotional way. Note that I said community rather than "X user specifically", with Vs Debates obviously being for anyone of any age and capabilities. Just a little bit of truth to that makes things immensely f*cked up.

The invitation to talk things privately I gave before still stands, it would it have been nice to cover things about this thread and other things in a more personal way freely. I take this as a reaction.

Seriously? The thread was meant to upgrade them to such tiers that's why other feats are brought to back them up, mentioning outlier here dosen't make sense.

I'm confused as to why it doesn't make sense. I disagreed with most of the feats, with the consistent left that mostly correct feat would be an outlier, if I just say the feat's correct I'm saying that Supes should scale, which is not consistent. Why am I expected to not say outlier?

He was taken off guard for a little single moment while but is still in battle with superman besides, Superman damaged him easily and made him cough up his teeth same mordru using magic to weaken him still got damaged him easily. She simply attacked him to damage him nothing in the scan indicated hax was used except you've got proof.

I'm aware this realistically makes him scale, with "standard comic outlier" I meant this was the type of set up used when outliers happen in DC comics, giving some value to it.

We know nothing about the mordru from the possible future, even you how could you use this as a point to debunk.

It's not a "possible future", Fate said that will happen, and Mordru from Final Crisis: Legion of Three Worlds #4 from the 31st century.

Probably because he defeated himself since TT is a possible future version of himself.

Please elaborate.

I don't see how being chained and not to be able to anything would seal your durability or have anything on his durability not like any statement was made on it being a magical chain to seal his durability unless you can prove it of course.

Yes, there are no statements that say so, it's just intuitive by the context he's in.

I'm pretty sure he was stated to be as powerful as when he was alive in this book though this black state seems more like a shell as the real spectre later came out from inside, shown in his battle with parallax.

Ok. You can be as powerful as when alive when undead/zombie yet have a lower durability with a higher resistance to pain, it's fairly common.

A rebunk was made on this, you should check it.

I went over everything here, where did I skip it?

He also said his going to need some help, and hit her with EVERYTHING his got, I don't understand what you're trying to say here, lmao.

Ok, we need better evidence on how he holds back. The way this usually goes is that we can pinpoint foes and timeframes where he's holding back, and when doing he ends up saying things like that anyway. Like Thor.

I leave that work to the rest of the staff. Otherwise my argument is super weak there.

huh?

Time

This is really bad.

What he's saying is it's OUR JOB to create an interpretation based on the story. Holding him on a false pedestal that he doesn't want to be held to for the sake of downplaying strong characters is actually wrong.

As my "if that was a real quote he said" implies, he didn't actually said "anyone's interpretation of the comic is as important as his own", that was just conjecture. Reading what the links lead to it I concluded that there were some things he would rather not be asked about, some=/=all. Let's see the links:

• "sir one question would you say flash barry allen could reach nigh omnipresence with reaching his full potential", "because in the scan it was said he actually broke all endless realitys sir??", he replies "These kinds of "cosmic questions" are best left up to the individual to work out because they can be interpreted many ways."
• " does the Living Tribunal exist beyond The Void, As in The Void Of Which Creation/Everything Sprung? Where does The Tribunal Exist? According to the Pictures he seems to transcend the Void within one of his faces. ?", he replies "Again, these questions really aren't for me. My answer is basically the same to all of them: Whatever you come up with is as valid an answer as any other. : )"
• "Can Obvilion Affect Our World? with comic logic. And is Obvilion transcendent to overdimension", he replies "I'm not really interested in these kinds of questions. You'd be better off coming up with your own answers... as I'm sure I've said before. : )"
• "Is it true that the multiverse is infinite? And is it true that Creatures from the realm of the gods see the multiverse like paper?" (Nov 29, 2020)
• I think the last link is dead

He specifically doesn't know about questions about cosmic things and if they are particularly super complex, to what standard we can't say since he's a real life person, whatever he thinks fits that standard fits that standard. It's understandable to not talk about what you aren't sure about or if you think others may come up with a better take. The Supes question doesn't obligatorily fit to as the same kind of things he didn't talk about as he was sure enough to give a response, you can't affirm that this is something that he would rather let others tackle and that it's something he doesn't know, because we don't know that for sure. You could argue this a topic a bit less complex to all the other stuff he was asked, and even if it wasn't, again, a person puts their own standards on what's too much for them to answer. So as I said before, "Is his opinion 100% exact authority? No. But it is worth listing and keeping in mind when organizing everything."

Also you say "for the sake of downplaying strong characters" like that's my purpose, I say what I say out of making logical conclusions and wanting to be accurate, if that makes characters weaker, stronger or everything remains the same that's up to what I'm being presented with.

No argument as to why so hitchen's razor.

We already had scaling in our profiles.

Phantom Zone/Underworld isn't smaller than a universe, most statements make it atleast comparable to other realms in the sphere though.

Well, we would need to evaluate that.

So far i've seen just 2 statement of it mentioned to be nothingness, 2 mentioned to be endless one was even posted above and 1 of it being called a dimension without dimensions and in the sphere of gods literally the realms are shown to be the same size according to the map.

Doesn't sound meaningful. Ok if there isn't more to it.

You agree with supporting evidences like that or not? Sorry if I didn't see it since I just skim through the thread time to time.

I went over how supporting evidence in the sense used by the thread (minus scaling) that wouldn't for example be in a profile's AP doesn't contribute anything, it fits any stat.

Just so you know, there's also another statement by Wally after defeating a Vampire superman he said if its his own universe superman, he isn't sure if he'd win if they were to fight despite easily folding that other version of superman.

MT told him he might actually be more powerful than Superman then wally said what are you talking about. Do you expect Wally to reply with of course or i agree with you? That's definitely the obvious reply to the question.

Besides at the end of everything MT said Wally agreed with him, also what he mentioned isn't about potential since Wally can legit do all those things.

Alt. versions of characters may vary in power, or the way he fights may make him easier to defeat. It's neat but it doesn't bring up anything that can be used.

It's what MT said what makes him talk about Wally's potential, not Wally's concussion at first. It would change nothing if he said "I agree" immediately, it would just mean that he knows of this potential, that he agrees later just means just that, that he came to agree to it later. The initial concussion still contributes though, it's new info to him.

We all know Speedsters powers are from the Speed Force or most of them, so when he said he had incalculable power and infinite power in him we all know he meant the raw speed force energy he gained in Flash annual that made him even more powerful than an amped savitar with almost full power of the speed force.

Could be.

Wally isn't a type of saiyan with multiple forms, surge is just a special raw connection only Wally has, also its funny cause even superman has this statement about being stronger also in post rebirth.

You don't need to compare it to a type of saiyan, the Speed Force gives all kinds of boosts over time, by putting more effect or asking more from it, it has super alterable rules.

Nop it's the most reasonable that's why I made it my final comment, you just don't have a counter to it.

I agree to disagree.

Yes, and read my comment above again.

Going over this again, it's likely that he did reach lightspeed as he says that he would appear as a continuous beam of light, so I agree to this:

likely up to High Universe level (After having relativistic effects taking over his body as he approached litghtspeed & his body's mass increased towards infinity, he then described his speeds as appearing "as a continuous beam of light" to a slower Speedster, implying he reached lightspeed & had infinite mass rather than approaching both qualities)

I personally interpreted it as affecting beyond the normal universe's space-time or shattering the limits of the known universe space-time or another interpretation ,basically what hold them together.

Well, the boundaries of many things can be destroyed w/o affecting the things themselves that had those boundaries. A thing may also not have boundaries that cover them in all sides like aura, it can be of any size really as long as someone decides "Ok so this is the boundary of this thing".

Agnaa said distortion and warping qualifies as affecting, didn't they distort the space-time?

Affecting as in significantly affecting, the term we made up for practicality? And I assume it's not distortion and warping on its own, but distortion and warping proven to be on the level of significantly affecting, in which case yeah but it doesn't matter here.

He has all previous histories of himself as 1 and the pre-crisis universe was revived.

I'm not well kept up with that, but it was said that's for later.

https://vsbattles.com/threads/infinite-sized-dc-comics-universes.137199/ this one

I can see the issues there. XXKINGXX69's logic on how infinite can be finite was very rejectable, nobody did disagree with it as they didn't see what was wrong with it. The rest rolls smoothly on its own as no amount of anti-evidence matters anymore.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

Well, I'm naturally skeptical as I watched the show version where white Raven is an amp and she's like a portal to summon Trigon to threaten the universe, and here she says "within me were contained foces great enough to destroy a universe.". She says "were", she doesn't have that anymore.

Looking into this she used to be possessed by Trigon and have his power, then she got possessed by Azar, but she got back to a relatively normal state.

I remember this feat being rejected, hopefully somebody remembers the reasons.

I'm gonna go over why this is a poor way to take criticism. It's fine if you don't talk back, but please don't be dismissive about my comment and do analyze what I have to say:



You don't end up backing up how you think I act pretentious in any meaningful way. It's not just being critical and annoying, to be pretentious I actually have to have no idea of what I'm talking about, otherwise this just a vague feeling/thing that sounds like it could be said against me.



1) I called things unprofessional like 4 times, and I don't remember calling any user that rather than a specific action I cover at the moment. 2) That is something anyone's allowed to do, freely. Heck you even do so in your own comment but ig only me doing it is bad as I did so more times. Again anyone's free to call things unprofessional, and I went over like 40 things here, do you believe that anyone should just keep quiet about everything they find unprofessional if they cover things that long? No, that's a horrible normalization to support, people should able to call things out unprofessional even if they were to find half of everything unprofessional. It's not a me thing/a thing that "it can be done, but you're an asshole if you do it", it's just standard. I conclude things and I say them with the reasons that made me conclude them being shown in a clear way.



I did that once. Also define "casually", if you meant like the effort to type the word, sure, if you meant anything else, which you most likely did, then you're wrong. I read over the comic where the feat happens, I found the portrayal of the feat to be missing of a lot of context that happens in the comic that, to put it simply, is what we would write in a profile if the feat has accepted, and I concluded that no genuine user would submit the feat w/o actively, purposely ignoring the info that ruins the feat. Big of a claim as it might be, you do realize that real frauds aren't always caught up with solid evidence of them being frauds and need to be understood as such by context? And that people need to called them out first? I apologized for calling X user who submitted the feat a fraud, but at the same time, I consider that the reaction to it was an overreaction that would fit better if my reasons to say that were nonsensical.



Well, no I didn't. I was underwhelmed by the premise of the 2-A upgrade by the thread so far but that's not the same. If feats are correct then great, if consistent stuff happens, if not they stay archived as outliers, maybe to be used later. I gave "no"s to things individually, I didn't expect to give that many, and even then they still have value in being archived. Also, imagine I say that someone acts like it's ridiculous that something I did even existed, like 5 comments would go over how I have no reason to say that, that I shouldn't/can't assume that and that it's uncalled for.



Well, minor but I conclude things rather than feeling them, which may be what you meant. This thread isn't "1 big thing" to be analyzed", this thread is "like 40 things to be analyzed"; if it were the former, what you say would make perfect sense, but it isn't, this is you expressing that most of the criticism I had to give should rather not exist, in part if not entirely because it makes people feel bad. I conclude (not a vague feeling) based on what I read here that it would be news to say that I don't just copy-paste mean criticism over and over in the like 40 things I went over, each thing that I deemed worth criticizing was its own world, I put care to be detailed in what their separated issues were. I'm not gonna put in a text doc all the criticism that's similar, avoid saying it, and then later say that X, X, X, X & X things have Z thing wrong so that the bad feelings it gives having dared to say that only come out once, that would be nonsensical and vague due to generalizing, and there is no reason to do it because those bad feelings are just an unhealthy reaction that needs to be overcome.



You might have noticed this by the comments below yours but that was a perfectly rational thing to criticize; a big decision was done that affects the way we did things in a negative way in a way that was fairly foreseeable. I didn't know who made the decision but it was read, understood, and it likely won't happen again, simple as that. Idk what your issue is with that bold part of the text; if a feat is wrong, it doesn't matter, if it's an outlier, it's correct, but it isn't consistent enough to be added at least yet. It's still a pretty big deal.
---
How many people had the same or a comparable reaction to what I said? (Misremembering things, don't liking how I point the issues on things, having personal opinions not based that worsens me.) They're not gonna like it but if an equivalent of a sequel of this thread ever comes out an equivalent of the same comments I gave will follow, fitting to what I conclude at the time. Remember the 2 questions about frauds I gave above? Replace "fraud" with any of the other things I did say a lot (like something being disingenuous) and the same applies. That is something anyone can say they understand, but if they're relatively young it's understood even better over time. This is just a feeling I have that I don't take as factual, but people might have built a community with a toxic realationship to claims like that in how they react to them, whereas it's immensely important to over time have normalized to understand them in a rational and not overly emotional way. Note that I said community rather than "X user specifically", with Vs Debates obviously being for anyone of any age and capabilities. Just a little bit of truth to that makes things immensely f*cked up.

The invitation to talk things privately I gave before still stands, it would it have been nice to cover things about this thread and other things in a more personal way freely. I take this as a reaction.

I'm confused as to why it doesn't make sense. I disagreed with most of the feats, with the consistent left that mostly correct feat would be an outlier, if I just say the feat's correct I'm saying that Supes should scale, which is not consistent. Why am I expected to not say outlier?

I'm aware this realistically makes him scale, with "standard comic outlier" I meant this was the type of set up used when outliers happen in DC comics, giving some value to it.

It's not a "possible future", Fate said that will happen, and Mordru from Final Crisis: Legion of Three Worlds #4 from the 31st century.

Please elaborate.

Yes, there are no statements that say so, it's just intuitive by the context he's in.

Ok. You can be as powerful as when alive when undead/zombie yet have a lower durability with a higher resistance to pain, it's fairly common.

I went over everything here, where did I skip it?

Ok, we need better evidence on how he holds back. The way this usually goes is that we can pinpoint foes and timeframes where he's holding back, and when doing he ends up saying things like that anyway. Like Thor.

I leave that work to the rest of the staff. Otherwise my argument is super weak there.

Time

As my "if that was a real quote he said" implies, he didn't actually said "anyone's interpretation of the comic is as important as his own", that was just conjecture. Reading what the links lead to it I concluded that there were some things he would rather not be asked about, some=/=all. Let's see the links:

• "sir one question would you say flash barry allen could reach nigh omnipresence with reaching his full potential", "because in the scan it was said he actually broke all endless realitys sir??", he replies "These kinds of "cosmic questions" are best left up to the individual to work out because they can be interpreted many ways."
• " does the Living Tribunal exist beyond The Void, As in The Void Of Which Creation/Everything Sprung? Where does The Tribunal Exist? According to the Pictures he seems to transcend the Void within one of his faces. ?", he replies "Again, these questions really aren't for me. My answer is basically the same to all of them: Whatever you come up with is as valid an answer as any other. : )"
• "Can Obvilion Affect Our World? with comic logic. And is Obvilion transcendent to overdimension", he replies "I'm not really interested in these kinds of questions. You'd be better off coming up with your own answers... as I'm sure I've said before. : )"
• "Is it true that the multiverse is infinite? And is it true that Creatures from the realm of the gods see the multiverse like paper?" (Nov 29, 2020)
• I think the last link is dead

He specifically doesn't know about questions about cosmic things and if they are particularly super complex, to what standard we can't say since he's a real life person, whatever he thinks fits that standard fits that standard. It's understandable to not talk about what you aren't sure about or if you think others may come up with a better take. The Supes question doesn't obligatorily fit to as the same kind of things he didn't talk about as he was sure enough to give a response, you can't affirm that this is something that he would rather let others tackle and that it's something he doesn't know, because we don't know that for sure. You could argue this a topic a bit less complex to all the other stuff he was asked, and even if it wasn't, again, a person puts their own standards on what's too much for them to answer. So as I said before, "Is his opinion 100% exact authority? No. But it is worth listing and keeping in mind when organizing everything."

Also you say "for the sake of downplaying strong characters" like that's my purpose, I say what I say out of making logical conclusions and wanting to be accurate, if that makes characters weaker, stronger or everything remains the same that's up to what I'm being presented with.

We already had scaling in our profiles.

Well, we would need to evaluate that.

Doesn't sound meaningful. Ok if there isn't more to it.

I went over how supporting evidence in the sense used by the thread (minus scaling) that wouldn't for example be in a profile's AP doesn't contribute anything, it fits any stat.

Alt. versions of characters may vary in power, or the way he fights may make him easier to defeat. It's neat but it doesn't bring up anything that can be used.

It's what MT said what makes him talk about Wally's potential, not Wally's concussion at first. It would change nothing if he said "I agree" immediately, it would just mean that he knows of this potential, that he agrees later just means just that, that he came to agree to it later. The initial concussion still contributes though, it's new info to him.

Could be.

You don't need to compare it to a type of saiyan, the Speed Force gives all kinds of boosts over time, by putting more effect or asking more from it, it has super alterable rules.

I agree to disagree.

Going over this again, it's likely that he did reach lightspeed as he says that he would appear as a continuous beam of light, so I agree to this:

likely up to High Universe level (After having relativistic effects taking over his body as he approached litghtspeed & his body's mass increased towards infinity, he then described his speeds as appearing "as a continuous beam of light" to a slower Speedster, implying he reached lightspeed & had infinite mass rather than approaching both qualities)

Well, the boundaries of many things can be destroyed w/o affecting the things themselves that had those boundaries. A thing may also not have boundaries that cover them in all sides like aura, it can be of any size really as long as someone decides "Ok so this is the boundary of this thing".

Affecting as in significantly affecting, the term we made up for practicality? And I assume it's not distortion and warping on its own, but distortion and warping proven to be on the level of significantly affecting, in which case yeah but it doesn't matter here.

I'm not well kept up with that, but it was said that's for later.

I can see the issues there. XXKINGXX69's logic on how infinite can be finite was very rejectable, nobody did disagree with it as they didn't see what was wrong with it. The rest rolls smoothly on its own as no amount of anti-evidence matters anymore.

Well, I'm naturally skeptical as I watched the show version where white Raven is an amp and she's like a portal to summon Trigon to threaten the universe, and here she says "within me were contained foces great enough to destroy a universe.". She says "were", she doesn't have that anymore.

Raven saying that powers to destroy a universe were contained inside her doesn't necessarily mean they still aren't. It could easily mean that they were giving to her from birth by Trigon

 

[Firestorm808]

There are a lot of feats to evaluate.

Anyway, which feats have so far been uniformly accepted by all of the staff members who have performed case-by-case evaluations here?

I will draft a list of feats with at least 3 individuals agreeing.

 

[Firestorm808]

So, it turns out that we don't have any feats with at least 3 individual agreement ratings at the moment.

https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5379794

 

[LordTracer]

So, it turns out that we don't have any feats with at least 3 individual agreement ratings at the moment.

https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5379794

… is there a reason you’re not acknowledging the blanket agrees?

 

[Firestorm808]

… is there a reason you’re not acknowledging the blanket agrees?

This is what's been requested.

I still greatly appreciate the staff and knowledgeable members who are taking the time to thoroughly/properly evaluate all of the parts of these feat lists instead of saying blanket "agree with everything" or "disagree with everything" statements, as that kind of approach is downright dangerous for the reliability of our wiki as a whole for this type of revision with a massive number of feats to evaluate, and as such seems irresponsible to me.

There are a lot of feats to evaluate.

Anyway, which feats have so far been uniformly accepted by all of the staff members who have performed case-by-case evaluations here?

 

[Eficiente]

Raven saying that powers to destroy a universe were contained inside her doesn't necessarily mean they still aren't. It could easily mean that they were giving to her from birth by Trigon

Well, no that doesn't make sense. "Within me were contained forces great enough to destroy a universe." means that she had that in the past. If you randomly say that you had something then that means you don't have it anymore (or you don't have it in the same way), otherwise you would say that you have something, which still means you had it since an unknown amount of time in the past. I mean you can say in real life that something was the case and the next time the topic is touched say that it's still presently the case, you would be inaccurate and maybe need to apologize if it was something that matters. This being given to her from birth by Trigon doesn't connect in any way to the sentence, which is really simple as that. That would go like this; she had the potential for that since baby, because that strong since being Herald level, said that this power was the case for her (when baby), and then from then on she still had it?

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

Well, no that doesn't make sense. "Within me were contained forces great enough to destroy a universe." means that she had that in the past. If you randomly say that you had something then that means you don't have it anymore (or you don't have it in the same way), otherwise you would say that you have something, which still means you had it since an unknown amount of time in the past. I mean you can say in real life that something was the case and the next time the topic is touched say that it's still presently the case, you would be inaccurate and maybe need to apologize if it was something that matters. This being given to her from birth by Trigon doesn't connect in any way to the sentence, which is really simple as that. That would go like this; she had the potential for that since baby, because that strong since being Herald level, said that this power was the case for her (when baby), and then from then on she still had it?

Were contained is practically the same as werr put. Let's take this sentence: "The books were out into the bag". The word "put" is in past tense because somebody put the books there in the past. Yet the books still remain in the bag unless somebody took them out. Raven never specified her powers being taken away

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

...why would Raven "kick Trigon's teeth in" Roth have lost those powers contained within her? She's pretty darned consistently portrayed as cosmic.

 

[Eseseso]

Are there any Tier 3/2 upgrades that actually have been agreed upon and accepted?

Because if not, it kinda feels like this is a waste of time.