Continuation of Tier 3 Kid Buu discussions

[Tarang123]

This is a continuation of this thread, to which has been approved of being continued by Crabwhale as long as things remain civil.

Anyway, let the discussion begin

 

[Hasty12345]

Agree for reasons below (or above I guess?)

 

[Vizer04]

For anyone new to the thread, these are the main counterarguments to the OP at the moment:

Vizer04 said:
So, @Toby020 is saying that Buu should be 3-B by scaling above a Young Beerus who is supposedly 3-B for being able to supposedly "destroy the entire Kaioshin Realm".

The thing is, we don't know how Beerus would exactly destroy the Kaioshin Realm. He could do it with his own AP or via Hakai. If it's the second option, then Buu wouldn't scale to the feat since Hakai is a technique exclusive to the GoDs and GoD Candidates.

StekFence said:
I think that’s quite reasonable actually. Hakai is the signature move of destroyer entities. Beerus is such an entity. Hakai is an in-character move that destroys things, and thus it would make a lot of sense if the guy who often uses hakai to destroy... uses hakai to destroy. It’s not like we are saying someone like goku is gonna hakai something about of existence, we are talking about destroyer gods.

And even then, scaling hakai to its users doesn’t make sense. It’s not like it’s a technique that hits so hard that souls and matter are destroyed. It’s not an AP based attack, it just has the property of destroying things because it does.

StekFence said:
I think Old Kai's statement of Buu being > Beerus is wrong outright. Firstly, we know that Beerus did not seal away Old Kai due to fear as Old Kai said, he was just annoyed. There is no reason to fear Old Kai's ability to power people up anyways, as Beerus wanted to fight strong people. That’s why he sought out a Saiyan God.
Why should we believe Old Kai's statement of Buu being > Beerus, when we know for a fact that he lied in the very next sentence.

 

[MrHazama]

I'm open to 3-B manga Buu. I actually find it odd to see Buu saga DBZ (manga) characters at "4-B"

 

[Thelastmlg]

okay let's see:

1. why are we assuming the hakai can even affect the kaioshin realm again? the largest range feat i recall from it was sindra hakaing a city, but then were assuming he would use a 3-B hakai instead of blowing it up like normal? i mean, he was goign to destroy a bunch of stuff in battle of gods and it was clearly not with the haaki so just the word seems unnecessary.

2. is the signature move of them but not the signature way of them destroyig nstuff, they usually blow it up.

3. i agree that scaling buu to beerus is very contradictory and reaching though, guess is up to the other statements regarding the universe being destroyed

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

should have tagged the author of this thread, lol, but I agree with everything exactly, I hope people don't have the same attitudes

 

[Tarang123]

For anyone new to the thread, these are the main counterarguments to the OP at the moment:

Like I said in the last thread, I disagree with the proposals for the reasons you've listed (if I'm allowed to do that)

 

[Bossbrosish]

Went and looked at the previous thread and personally I can see a 3-B Kid Buu but not a 3-A one. I do have one question (which I hope doesn't derail the thread), isn't Buuhan technically stronger than Kid Buu? Wouldn't that mean Buuhan would be stronger than a young Beerus?

 

[Vizer04]

isn't Buuhan technically stronger than Kid Buu?

Yes, Buuhan is stronger than Kid Buu (at least in the main continuity, the Toeiverse is another story)

Wouldn't that mean Buuhan would be stronger than a young Beerus?

Theorically yes, he would be.

 

[Tarang123]

Theorically yes, he would be.

That would be pretty weird lol.

I think that the whole Kid Buu > Beerus is just a case of taking a word out of context. He's more dangerous doesn't equate to him being more powerful.

 

[Damage3245]

I think the counter-arguments against this proposal looks fine for now.

 

[Godernet]

I'm neutral likely disagreeing for now. I don't think this would contradict scaling too heavily since the Beerus we meet is likely significantly more powerful but there isn't enough evidence for how a younger Beerus would have destroyed the Kaioshin realm.

Also, like Stekfence said, the narrative around the person that sealed Old Kai back in Z doesn't fit the character of Beerus. It's honestly safer to say this was just retconned.

If more convincing arguments come up for it we'll see but even then a Possibly 3-B rating is the best I could see with so little definitive evidence.

 

[Tarang123]

Also, like Stekfence said, the narrative around the person that sealed Old Kai back in Z doesn't fit the character of Beerus. It's honestly safer to say this was just retconned.

I would say that while it's retconned, it clearly still happened. I believe the manga/anime actually mention that Beerus sealed him in the sword over a petty spat.

If more convincing arguments come up for it we'll see but even then a Possibly 3-B rating is the best I could see with so little definitive evidence.

I'd say a "Possibly higher" key is probably better, but Possibly 3B might work.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

I would say that while it's retconned, it clearly still happened. I believe the manga/anime actually mention that Beerus sealed him in the sword over a petty spat.


I'd say a "Possibly higher" key is probably better, but Possibly 3B might work.

I disagree, there are explicit quotes to leave on this scale, even Akira toriyama himself made this happen, it's the same thing as going against the work and the creator, 3-B in the profile would be better, in addition to having sufficient evidence to adhere to the 3-B in the profile.

 

[Vizer04]

I can agree with a Possibly 3-B rating as the best option since we don't know the method Beerus would use to destroy the Kaioshin Realm.

 

[Damage3245]

Elder Kai's statement could just be retconned by now... Beerus didn't even exist as a concept back when the statement originally came out, and the level of power escalation in the series has skyrocketed since then.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

I can agree with a Possibly 3-B rating as the best option since we don't know the method Beerus would use to destroy the Kaioshin Realm.

but we know exactly, have you ever seen hakai affect anything bigger than a city?

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Elder Kai's statement could just be retconned by now... Beerus didn't even exist as a concept back when the statement originally came out, and the level of power escalation in the series has skyrocketed since then.

but it wasn't, Akira toriyama even mentioned Bills' name in an interview, there's no way we're going to go over it for another 6 long years, lol

 

[Tarang123]

but we know exactly, have you ever seen hakai affect anything bigger than a city?

No? But we know that Beerus could, in all likelihood, hakai far more than just that.

 

[Vizer04]

but we know exactly, have you ever seen hakai affect anything bigger than a city?

Are you suggesting
that Hakai only has City level range?

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

No? But we know that Beerus could, in all likelihood, hakai far more than just that.

no lol, beerus back then was inferior and would possibly have hardly any control over hakai, i totally disagree with that.

 

[Vizer04]

beerus back then was inferior and would possibly have hardly any control over hakai

This is literally headcanon, we use facts to decide ratings. Even GoD Candidates can control Hakai.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Are you suggestions that Hakai only has City level range?

I'm not suggesting this, but the hakai only showed long range in the tournament of power, which affected an infinite void in size, but I disagree with your argument wanting to scale that feat to the hakai, being that most of the destruction works through energies

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

This is literally headcanon, we use facts to decide ratings. Even GoD Candidates

I don't see facts in your logic, wanting to apply a feat with hakai, and most feats use energy, lol, not all God of Destruction candidates have full control over the hakai, like Vegeta, he is a supposed God of Destruction candidate, he still doesn't have full control, and he still has a line in the anime where Whis suggested Goku become God of destruction, that's when he didn't even have the hakai, I'm pretty sure Bills only entered the position of God for having a revealing power like Goku.

 

[Alonik]

okay let's see:

1. why are we assuming the hakai can even affect the kaioshin realm again? the largest range feat i recall from it was sindra hakaing a city, but then were assuming he would use a 3-B hakai instead of blowing it up like normal? i mean, he was goign to destroy a bunch of stuff in battle of gods and it was clearly not with the haaki so just the word seems unnecessary.

2. is the signature move of them but not the signature way of them destroyig nstuff, they usually blow it up.

That's usually how they do it, they start creating a hakai area that would encompassess de whole macrocosmos of both universes. So Yeah, Beerus hakaing the Kaioshin's realm is a thing and a point.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

That's usually how they do it, they start creating a hakai area that would encompassess de whole macrocosmos of both universes. So Yeah, Beerus hakaing the Kaioshin's realm is a thing and a point.

but that's not hakai per se but the energy of destruction lol

 

[Alonik]

Elder Kai's statement could just be retconned by now... Beerus didn't even exist as a concept back when the statement originally came out, and the level of power escalation in the series has skyrocketed since then.

Pretty much that, however this will go all the way to: "we need to argue how beerus was weaker than Majin Boo coz we can't imagine dragon ball being retconned"

 

[Tarang123]

but it wasn't, Akira toriyama even mentioned Bills' name in an interview, there's no way we're going to go over it for another 6 long years, lol

Yes, his name was mentioned, but the actual level of power he had wasn't set until DBS

 

[Tarang123]

but that's not hakai per se but the energy of destruction lol

Which is what Toppo used in the ToP, which is still a form of Hakai iirc

 

[Alonik]

but that's not hakai per se but the energy of destruction lol

You just said the same thing, Hakai=Energy of Destruction. 破壊 (Hakai) means "Destruction", hakai and energy of hakai are the same thing, your argue is pretty much like "kamehameha is different from energy of kamehameha"

 

[God900]

I disagree, there are explicit quotes to leave on this scale, even Akira toriyama himself made this happen, it's the same thing as going against the work and the creator, 3-B in the profile would be better, in addition to having sufficient evidence to adhere to the 3-B in the profile.

A "likely" rating would be better, becouse it's just an statement that wasn't shown on screen..

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

You just said the same thing, Hakai=Energy of Destruction. 破壊 (Hakai) means "Destruction", hakai and energy of hakai are the same thing, your argue is pretty much like "kamehameha is different from energy of kamehameha"

hakai is focused on your opponent, your energy released passively, I disagree.

 

[Vizer04]

Likely or possibly, i'm open to those two options but not to a full definite rating, it requires too many assumptions.

 

[God900]

Yes, his name was mentioned, but the actual level of power he had wasn't set until DBS

I mean, can't he just grow stronger?....

I don't find that odd, given it was like million years ago....

If you take a look at the absurd power jumps DBS characters have through training, it's not that far fetched.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

A "likely" rating would be better, becouse it's just an statement that wasn't shown on screen..

This one is probably like guesswork, but we're pretty sure it's done lol

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

I mean, can't he just grow stronger?....

I don't find that odd, given it was like million years ago....

If you take a look at the absurd power jumps DBS characters have through training, it's not that far fetched.

yeah, I think I could also use this base to change Bills' profile, and after training they would be his tier than today

 

[Tarang123]

I mean, can't he just grow stronger?....

I don't find that odd, given it was like million years ago....

If you take a look at the absurd power jumps DBS characters have through training, it's not that far fetched.

My point being that an actual level of power wasn't truly set to the character until DBS, so I think any statements before the character was even a thing should be taken with a grain of salt

 

[God900]

Elder Kai's statement could just be retconned by now... Beerus didn't even exist as a concept back when the statement originally came out, and the level of power escalation in the series has skyrocketed since then.

Akira even mentioned the name "Bills/Beerus" back then in an interview as Toby said.

Also, characters can get stronger through training, we see the massive power jumps DBS characters have..... Frieza just training 4 months and reaching Golden, is an example.
There no contradiction or anti feat for that, given it passed millions, and millions of years since the last encounter between Elder Kai and Beerus.

Couldn't the latter just have trained during that period??


However, as I say, and given se don't have much information about, I suggest a "Likely" or "possibly" rating for the 3-B tier.

 

[Alonik]

but it wasn't, Akira toriyama even mentioned Bills' name in an interview, there's no way we're going to go over it for another 6 long years, lol

Akira quoting Beerus in an interview one year before Dragon Ball Super anime and manga version releasing doesn't mean anything, first of all:

• Dragon Ball Z: Battle of Gods - March 30, 2013 (Japan)
• Saikyō Jump June 2014 Issue (02 May 2014) - Where Akira Toriyama quotes Beerus
• Dragon Ball Super anime: Jul 5, 2015
• Dragon Ball Super Manga: June 20, 2015

Even if Akira had not released Dragon Ball the Battle of the Gods 1 year before this interview, he released this interview 1 year before DBS, which shows that his intentions were already to retcon the several things Dragon Ball chronology anyway.

And I'll just copy and paste some notes made by Speedster at Kazenshuu noticing some retcons regarding these events:

2014 interview: full interview here

• Q. The Kaiōshin are said to have the highest status in the universe, but how can you become a Kaiōshin?
  • Toriyama: No one can. Kaiōshin are born as Kaiōshin. There are three of them, and they work in shifts. Though there are two of them on duty now, if one of the Kaiōshin were to die in an accident, then the currently-inactive Kaiōshin would grow in the Kaiōshin Realm like a plant. If there aren’t any accidents, then it’s said their lifespans are about 75,000 years.

The above goes directly against the original manga itself where there are direct references and panels to Kaioshins of the North, South and West and that the current Kaioshin was serving as the East Kaioshin at the time. Or that Buu absorbed the West Kaioshin and Dai Kaiōshin. It also contradicts their lifespans as the current Kaioshin we know existed for over 5 million years.

It also retcons the 2009 interview in the Super Exciting guide about the origin of the Kaioshins:

2009 interview: full interview here

• Q. Is Kaiō-sama a hereditary position?
  • Toriyama: Inside the big ball I mentioned before, there is a planet, called the World Core [Kaishin-sei] where the Kaiō are born and raised. It’s a world like a gigantic Planet Kaiō, and Kaiō-sama and his peers are born as Core People [Shin-jin] from the fruit of the World Core’s giant World Tree [Kaiju]. The planet’s population is about 80. Core People are neither male nor female, and their average lifespan is said to be about 75,000 years. At a castle that’s like a school, they learn a variety of things, and live an easygoing life; however, if a Kaiō dies on one of the Kaiō Planets, the next Kaiō is chosen from among them by lottery. However, a Kaiōshin is chosen only from Core People who are born from a special golden fruit, which rarely occurs. In addition, there are occasionally delinquent Core People with evil hearts; these ones fall under the Makaiō.

In this interview the 75,000 years lifespan was for the regular Kaios. That of Kaioshins was meant to be 1000x longer (75 million years).

Also the 2014 interview says that the Kaioshins and Gods of Destructions are holding a meeting every 1000 years.

• Q. Who was it that sealed the Elder Kaiōshin away in the Z Sword?
  • Toriyama: The Kaiōshin (who create planets) and the Gods of Destruction (who destroy them) have never gotten along that well, but once every 1,000 years they go to each other’s realms and hold a coordination meeting. At this time, they got into an argument over some trifling thing, and a certain short-tempered God of Destruction sealed Elder Kaiōshin away inside a sword. Naturally, it wouldn’t have been proper for him to destroy the Kaiōshin Realm itself. By the way, that God of Destruction was Beerus.

So how in episode 3 of Dragonball Super, Kibitoshin not met Beerus but only Elder Kaioshin was really aware of him (Kibitoshin just heard of him)?

Seems to me that the timeline is somewhat compressed. Like the events of Buu killing the Kaioshins happened only 500 years ago (instead of 5 million years ago). Which makes sense for those events to be more recent as how could King Cold know about Buu (and warn Freeza about him too) if he was a being that existed 5 million years ago and never anyone heard from him again ever since. If Cold had such knowledge and Buu really appeared 5 million years ago it would be like a legend/rumour like the Super Saiyan one (which is supposedly once every 1000 years). Yet Beerus not knowing Buu? Oh well, Toriyama doesn't give a flying f*** about consistency and continuity.

 

[Alonik]

hahaha, julio

wassup, and who you are?