To answer your question for changing positions a space can be infinite but still have finite things inside of them like like the distance between a galaxy and another galaxy is still probably however many light years long but unless the distance is infinite it doesn’t really matter
that does answer my point tho? she said that to scan the whole space they need to go to the center, if the said space is infinite moving means nothing
I think it's better explained like this:
Can you rephrase that?
https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-7d9a640b6320f57871c0a46814c2a446-lq here bulma says that the universe is too big to scan the entirety of space from the edge, and that they need to go to the center to scan all of it in search for the super dragon balls, if said space is infinite then why would moving a finite distance matter? better yet, why would she be talking about an specific area of the universe to look for the super dragon balls that scatter through out said universe?
Okay, going back to this there are some things I will correct.When it comes to the mainline Dragon Ball cosmology, it can get really, really confusing. I myself had to do a lot of research just to see exactly how the universe even functioned because I couldn't tell if the Goku-Beerus clash in the Battle of Gods arc feat was simply just a Universe level feat.
Spacing and Structure
So for starters we have the Daizenshuu model of what one of the twelve universes look like, as this was created by Akira Toriyama himself.
I will be using this as a reference to what one of the universes looks like, since it was actually made by Toriyama and has been reinforced by many of the main showrunners and writers (such as Takao Koyama). Toei has made a different looking universe structure in the Dragon Ball Super anime, but it really doesn't matter what it looks like since the illustration is merely just a way to visualize it. What's more important is the contents of the universe.
- (Toriyama illustration)
- (Translated version and upscaled)
Living Realm / Mortal Universe
There are at least three different "realms", or planes of existence in one of these universes.
Now does this mean that the living universe's size is being retconned? Is this just the Daizenshuu books stating hyperbole? Well, no. I'll explain below when I talk about the other sections of the universe.
- There's the mortal universe first. Daizenshuu 4 says it's an endless, expansive space, so this by default should mean the universe is at least infinite.
- However, there is a small problem. In the anime of Dragon Ball Super, it states that there's an edge to the universe.
- Bulma also states that they are at the "edge" of the universe in the manga.
Heavenly Realm / Otherworld
The next part of the universe is the Heavenly Realm, or "Otherworld", which is the realm that Heaven, the four planets of the Kais and Enma/Yemma's check in station is located. Both Heaven and Otherworld are two different things. Heaven is the actual planet where the souls of the dead stay, and Otherworld/Heavenly realm is the entire plane of existence they live on. Heaven is stated to be "as wide as the universe itself", which may seem completely exaggerated based on the visualized universe Toriyama drew, however I will get to why that is.
For anyone who took an astronomy class, you may know that the observable universe in real life is not infinite in size, it's roughly about 46 billion light years wide. When it comes to Dragon Ball, the only possible explanation for both these statements to co-exist and not have any retcons is if the observable universe (as in the galaxies and stars in the universe) are only finite in size, but the plane of existence that the living people reside in is infinite. It can be backed up with how you simply cannot just "fly" all the way to Otherworld as it is a whole different plane of existence, and characters are only actually able to get there by using special spirit techniques such as Instant Transmission or Kai Kai which seems to let you teleport across dimensions (though not the Time Chamber or anywhere sealed off from the universe).
- Heaven (Daizenshuu 4)
- (Translated from above)
Oh also, time flows differently between the Living World and Otherworld as confirmed by Goku in the Buu saga, which should be enough proof they're two different space-time continuums when it comes to fictional dimension tiering.
Kaioshin Realm
Now that we have two universe sized structures out of the way, we go on to the last section of the universe which is the Supreme Kai/Kaioshin Realm. This is the separate space of the universe the Supreme Kais reside in to watch over all of life.
So overall, this would mean that there are at minimum, three space-time continuums when it comes to one universe. There are twelve universes in total, and some even have similar causalities such as Universe 6 and Universe 7 being extremely similar in history yet diverging in some aspects (such as Planet Sadala not being abandoned for Planet Vegeta)
- In the Daizenshuu books, it is stated to be 1/10th the size of both the Living Universe and Otherworld combined. As we know in math, ∞/10 is still just infinity. This would also mean that the Kaioshin Realm is an infinitely sized plane of existence as well.
Miscellaneous Realms
Now there are other places stated in Daizenshuu such as the "Enma Realm" and the Demon Realm, but based on what we know these are likely part of Otherworld and the Living Universe respectively. If anyone has any proof of these two being separate planes of existence then I would like to see the evidence.
- The Time Chamber is about the size of Earth, stated by Goku when him and Gohan trained in it in the Cell arc.
- A Daizenshuu 4 page stating the formation of the universe. Keep in mind that the "Galaxies" are more correctly just quadrants, as Jaco does state in the Dragon Ball Super manga that there are countless amounts of galaxies in the universe, not really a retcon but just better stated as to what the "four galaxies" actually are.
Other Places in the Multiverse
I'll also talk about Zeno's Realm and the Null Realm (also known as "World of Void"), since both seem to be existing entirely outside the Multiverse structure itself as said in the anime.
- We see with Zeno's Realm, it has universes floating around the palace. Now I don't know exactly how big the Zeno World is so I won't factor this into the size of the multiverse, but I will say that based on it's appearance, it seems to be egregiously larger than the already above infinite sized universes.
- But we do know how large the Null Realm is, as it's stated to be "infinite nothingness" and isolated outside the multiverse. Again, this world is stated to have no time or space, reinforcing what I said earlier about the different planes of existence. The realm seems to also exist in every alternate timeline as well.
Timelines
But here comes a tricky part: There are multiple timelines that can be created when travelling through time. The way time works in Dragon Ball is far different than real life, since the universal structure is way larger and different than most modern theories of the multiverse.
Time Travel in Dragon Ball
Now we know how they're created: You alter the past and the time axis spins into a whole different stream of events.
In the Black arc, new timelines are created by both Trunks and Zamasu due to actions that alter the past. There are six timelines as of now based on the amount of rings Gowasu has. This was formerly seven before Future Zeno erased the entirety of Trunks' timeline.
Scaling of Timelines
Does this mean that the 4D scaling I mentioned earlier for the universes is invalidated because the new timelines contain the entire existence of the Dragon World within them? Does this mean that this puts characters like Zeno up to Multiversal+ because the concept of time is above the structure of space-time continuums in multiverse theory? Nope, not at all.
Assuming there are at least 12 universes, each with their three planes of existence, this would mean that there are at least 36 different space-time continuums, and adding the Null Realm makes this 37. As said above I won't factor in Zeno's Realm as I can't find any material that verbally tells us it's size, for all we know they could just be decorations made by the Grand Priest.
In total, we know that there are at minimum, 222 space-time continuums in the mainline Dragon Ball canon. If we assume that some of these timelines never experienced Zeno erasing the other six universe, this number could jump up to 500+. This means that the Dragon Ball cosmology stays mostly around Low Multiverse level when it comes to power scaling.
Feat Examples
With this cosmology revision I stated above, here is what the appropriate scaling for some major feats in Dragon Ball Super should really be.
Most of the reference material in this thread is from the Daizenshuu books or the actual anime/manga itself. There are other Dragon Ball guidebooks I reference as well since most of them were approved by Toriyama.
- Goku-Beerus Universe Destroying Clash - Low Multiverse level
- Infinite Zamasu's existence spreading across timelines - At least Low Multiverse level
- Future Zeno erasing the entirety of Trunks' timeline - At least Low Multiverse level
If there are any arguments for scaling Dragon Ball any higher I would like to hear them, though I am not very active on the forums much due to my personal life getting in the way (I debunked some Sonic scaling once and I haven't checked any replies).
they are not alternate space times tho, like, the scan you use to say that in afterlife time flows differently doesn't evens say that, also the whole "scan for the super dragon balls problem"
Not as in timelines, but more as in "Alternate Infinite 3D Universes". We already know the Living World is indeed infinite in size.
It's different bodies of 4D so it would definitely be 2-C.
Yeah the illuminated universe has a center and edge. It's visually depicted as the edge of the celestial bodies. The infinite space beyond can't even be reached by light and there are unknown creatures that live there. So there's no reason why Bulma would even be able to detect anything beyond the illuminated universe. Nothing would show up on her instruments so of course she'd think it's the edge of the whole universe
This isn’t relevant to the thread at all and I personally do agree with Low Multi macrocosm but this isn’t the topic of the thread so unless it’s infinite sized universe discussion I recommend not mentioning this again
They aren't 4D tho, that was my point that i explained earlier
They are not space times period, i believe i already explained why
you know that this isn't my point right? There would be celestial bodies on the edge of the universe yes, this is again not relevant to my point
To scan something doesn't require light, she straight up says that she can do a full scan of the entire space if she goes to the center of the universe
headcanon, a scan doesn't require light, plus she said that she could and the whole point was to look for the super dragons scatered around the universe, why would she scan only an infinitesimal part of it?
I said this before, unless you show evidence from the series itself, you cannot use secondary cannon to force and very specific interpretarion of a main cannon statement since they are all secondary cannon
This, very much this
Why would there be shown celestial bodies beyond the edge im trying to say it’s depicted at the end of stars which is consistent with all the previous statements and an endless space encompassing celestial bodies
headcanon how? Universe can refer too many things and have different interpretations without context the Sdb’s are consistently shown only in the living universe which makes sense the Sdb’s are never shown to go beyond the living realm into the afterlife or kaioshin realm
This is FROM AN RPG GUIDE!!! Why are people still using it in 2023, smh
you are focusing on the wrong thing, that is said to be the edge of the universe, that is the important part
1 the "Nothing would show up on her instruments" is the headcanon that i am refering to,
it is secondary cannon, therefore to use in the way you are saying you need evidence from the main cannon first, that is how secondary cannon works
i don't see how can there be multiple interpretations, she says that they are on the edge of the universe and need to go to the center to scan all of said universe in search of the super dragon balls, it is very clear cut
you can say anything but that i am using headcanon, i am using logic of how secondary cannon is used, the contradiction exists
read my responses to it then
non sequitur, that is not a logical conclusion, specially when she is making a machine specifically to scan the entire universe in search of the dragon balls
i feel like we are repeating ourselves endlessly at this point, seriosly, i have said why this is not important for my point numerous times already
no, you can use, but it has to be hinted or presented in the main cannon in question first for you to force an interpretation of a statement and clear cut plot point into a specific meaning, i hope i expressed myself in a clear way
again, as in my original response, i don't see how any of those examples can be applied here, this is not another realm, this you proposing that an infinitesimal part of an infinite universe is being refered as an entire universe, where did something like that ever happened?
same
as a support on an already hinted hypotesis, mostly, it depends on various factors, but for the sake of this thread, the daizenshuu statement of an "infinite darkness" being used to say that a statement made a decade later in super about an edge and center that the characters need to go to, to use that to say that they are refering to an specific, infinitecimal part of the supposed "infinite universe" is really skecth, since it is secondary cannon, any apparent clear cut interpretation would take precedence over it, unless there is evidence in the actual series itself that would hint about the concept introduced in the said secondary cannon, i am not saying that secondary cannon cannot be used, just that they need to be used very carefully, got it?
Sure that sounds fine
yeah, that i will do, but tommorow, it is night and i am really tired for today, good night
Alright sounds good also make sure to include your stances on all 3 continuities once you send your summary
There isn't, so far maverick zero x disgreed with the universe being infinite and firestorm is making a blog archiving all the cosmology statements, both sides agreed to make an extensive sumarry of their points and then have the thread closed to stop it from getting clogged with messages or derail and let staff read both summarries with calm and attention so that we can reach an conclusion
Also we’re probably gonna make a new thread I was chatting with Pineapple and he said it’s better to make a new crt because this is too clogged and the crt will be a continuation of your crt removing the calcs from the macrocosm map so this thread will be remade as it’s cluttered
explain this better please? also yeah, maybe better a new thread with only the summaries and exclusively staff only, or else everything will happen again
Basically we let your crt pass and make a continuation of your thread which is also technically a continuation of this thread
i believe that it will be better if we don't mix two things into one, that would be confusing, let us focus on one thing at a time
To simplify it I’m just basically saying we’re making a new infinite universe thread after your crt is done because Pineapple said it’s better that way
Oh, then just to be clear, it will just cover the "infinite universe" stuff, correct?
Yes that’s it I was just explaining when the new crt would be made
no, we are waiting for both sides to do summaries, mine is not close to being ready due to irl stuff, and to another crt about the structure of the universe to end
Fam ikr! Bias and downplay will always be visceral for db.
Pretty much, for some reason a lot of people on VSBW tend to downplay Dragon Ball's scaling.
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