Calc Stacking in Tokyo Revengers

[MorrisHatesYou]

I already showed evidence of her throwing it considering the next panel it was already half way there. That supports my argument. That Senju through it before south turned.

That's not an evidence since you can't properly prove she threw it first.

as for the 4cm away. My point was that south didn’t know it wasn’t an umbrella due to near point being so Danm close. That’s the reason that he didn’t know it wasn’t an umbrella. He could still react to the umbrella. That’s all I’m saying.

Your source LITERALLY said if it was x distance away, he's not gonna notice it.


Ok, since you can't comprehend my point, I'll show you this.



The sound effect of the umbrella being thrown (whoom SFX) was ONLY on Senju's panel and NOT before, that means Senju threw it after south turned around.

 

[Clout5560]

That's not an evidence since you can't properly prove she threw it first.

Your source LITERALLY said if it was x distance away, he's not gonna notice it.


Ok, since you can't comprehend my point, I'll show you this.



The sound effect of the umbrella being thrown (whoom SFX) was ONLY on Senju's panel and NOT before, that means Senju threw it after south turned around.

I understand the point.

Didn’t the bang sound effect happen for the Izana gun feat as well? Despite having shot way before?

 

[Agnaa]

Why do the other members of the calc group refuse to evaluate the verse?

Because of arguments like this, that don't happen with 98% of verses:

The sound effect of the umbrella being thrown (whoom SFX) was ONLY on Senju's panel and NOT before, that means Senju threw it after south turned around.

 

[Clout5560]

Because of arguments like this, that don't happen with 98% of verses:

so me being able to not debunk it makes me not so smart. I think, I’ll leave this to the pros. Cya later.

 

[Lewis]

 

[MorrisHatesYou]

I understand the point.

Didn’t the bang sound effect happen for the Izana gun feat as well? Despite having shot way before?

The first bang effect of the gun being shot was exclusively on Kisaki's panel, meaning the gun was shot first, Izana was only shown during the 2nd and 3rd gun shot.

 

[MorrisHatesYou]

Because of arguments like this, that don't happen with 98% of verses:

Yup, we have to argue about the most basic things in this verse, it's really annoying. It's preferable if only the suporters, neutrals and opposers talk about them with the mods, it'd be better that way

 

[Agnaa]

Yup, we have to argue about the most basic things in this verse, it's really annoying. It's preferable if only the suporters, neutrals and opposers talk about them with the mods, it'd be better that way

I disagree with you xd

For manga in general, a lack of VFX does not mean that literally no sound was made. Especially in contexts like this, where a character (and the audience) doesn't realise something is going to happen; it'd kinda ruin that reveal (and be completely confusing for readers) if VFX for it appeared before it was known about. Some may want to do the reveal like that, but it's not necessarily true.

It's not a rule of manga that everything which makes sound must have VFX drawn the moment that it canonically would. Even 35 years ago, we had manga using VFX when no sound would logically be made (JoJo's Bizarre Adventure).

Plus from context, it really seems like it was already thrown; I think the "!!" and lack of change in expression from that panel indicate that he already saw it at that point.

 

[MorrisHatesYou]

I disagree with you xd

For manga in general, a lack of VFX does not mean that literally no sound was made. Especially in contexts like this, where a character (and the audience) doesn't realise something is going to happen; it'd kinda ruin that reveal (and be completely confusing for readers) if VFX for it appeared before it was known about. Some may want to do the reveal like that, but it's not necessarily true.

It's not a rule of manga that everything which makes sound must have VFX drawn the moment that it canonically would. Even 35 years ago, we had manga using VFX when no sound would logically be made (JoJo's Bizarre Adventure).

Plus from context, it really seems like it was already thrown; I think the "!!" and lack of change in expression from that panel indicate that he already saw it at that point.

Sounds right.

But here, I think it's more reasonable to assume that his reaction was the senju's footstep, I think that's the most reasonable.

What do you think about the Izana gun feat bro? You always give great opinions

 

[Vapourrrrr]

Kakucho is subsonic because of angry, if south has superhuman reaction how did Kakucho lose when he could just blitz him? That calc of the umbrella just contraddicts itself and container calc stacking

By superhuman perception I'm talking about subsonic to supersonic+

 

[Clout5560]

Sounds right.

But here, I think it's more reasonable to assume that his reaction was the senju's footstep, I think that's the most reasonable.

What do you think about the Izana gun feat bro? You always give great opinions

 

[Agnaa]

What do you think about the Izana gun feat bro? You always give great opinions

Maybe more context would change this, but from the scans in the calc, I don't think we really get enough of a view to say that Izana wasn't already running up before the gun was fired.

He seems to at least not be in frame, and to have pushed the dude out of the way in that time, so there's probably still a distance of like 2m moved (as a guess; a better one should be measured), which would make the calc land at around ~280 m/s, scaling to combat/attack/reaction speed but not travel speed.

 

[Vapourrrrr]

The first bang effect of the gun being shot was exclusively on Kisaki's panel, meaning the gun was shot first, Izana was only shown during the 2nd and 3rd gun shot.

I find it crazy that you have to explain this

 

[Syncornize]

Sounds right.

But here, I think it's more reasonable to assume that his reaction was the senju's footstep, I think that's the most reasonable.

What do you think about the Izana gun feat bro? You always give great opinions

I find it strange that in more than 200 discussion posts you only find his points right which you can also find in previous posts.... I would like to be friends with everyone here, I don't want hate to be created but it almost seems like there are preferences

 

[Zefra3011]

By superhuman perception I'm talking about subsonic to supersonic+

Then if he has subsonic to supersonic+ why can't he properly percieve something moving at subsonic speed?

The problem of the calc is that as long as you say " South couldn't properly percieve the umbrella" means that umbrella speed>south perception but as result you will always have a speed for South far higher than the one used for the umbrella meaning that realistically South perception>umbrella, or he got somehow buffed during the feat or he could percieve the umbrella from the beggining and "an umbrella?" means something different

 

[MorrisHatesYou]

Maybe more context would change this, but from the scans in the calc, I don't think we really get enough of a view to say that Izana wasn't already running up before the gun was fired.

You can see the entire context in chapter 175-176.

He seems to at least not be in frame, and to have pushed the dude out of the way in that time, so there's probably still a distance of like 2m moved (as a guess; a better one should be measured), which would make the calc land at around ~280 m/s, scaling to combat/attack/reaction speed but not travel speed.

He moved his arms 166 degs and the distance between Kakucho and the tip of the gun was like 41cm, i calced it, the gun used is Beretta m9. With your suggestion the speed would be around high end Supersonic+ and if we include the distance between tip of the gun and Izana, it gets to hypersonic+

 

[MorrisHatesYou]

I find it strange that in more than 200 discussion posts you only find his points right which you can also find in previous posts.... I would like to be friends with everyone here, I don't want hate to be created but it almost seems like there are preferences

I'm not too familiar with other people here. I've seen agnaa's takes enough, they're usually good.

 

[Syncornize]

I'm not too familiar with other people here. I've seen agnaa's takes enough, they're usually good.

the same points he made have already been said in other posts and the answer was different. That's why I said there is preference

 

[RoggerReggor]

I think these speeds for the verse can be used instead:

1. Mikey DI and South DI : superhuman speed
2. God tiers in general: peak human
3. anyone else: athletic human

I am neutral about anything else (because I don't for this verse damn) but would just want to state my opinion on these things:

1. Mikey, Izana, DI South, Senju: FTE Subsonic most of the times when there are trails (Literally known for kicking faster than human perception every time they kick. The three of these are literal three deities who ruled over a city or something. There's no way we can compensate for them to have a lower speed, specially when these people are like supersonic+ or something, and are not known to attack at slower speeds.)
2. Other god tiers: Superhuman to FTE Subsonic with visual information only when the person attacked seriously looks like they aren't able to process it.
3. Some mid tiers: Superhuman (Even some normal delinquents are superhuman. Examples are the one who overpowered Baji for a few seconds in the Valhalla arc. This is the only example I could think of because the normal delinquents became much more fodder-like after the Valhalla arc, and only the main spotlights were higher characters then. And mid tiers include some gang captains, vice captains, etc.)
4. No name detectives: Athletic human to Peak human
5. Takemichi: Immobile (Wouldn't attack a person because he's "kindhearted")

 

[Zefra3011]

I am neutral about anything else (because I don't for this verse damn) but would just want to state my opinion on these things:

1. Mikey, Izana, DI South, Senju: FTE Subsonic most of the times when there are trails (Literally known for kicking faster than human perception every time they kick. The three of these are literal three deities who ruled over a city or something. There's no way we can compensate for them to have a lower speed, specially when these people are like supersonic+ or something, and are not known to attack at slower speeds.)
2. Other god tiers: Superhuman to FTE Subsonic with visual information only when the person attacked seriously looks like they aren't able to process it.
3. Some mid tiers: Superhuman (Even some normal delinquents are superhuman. Examples are the one who overpowered Baji for a few seconds in the Valhalla arc. This is the only example I could think of because the normal delinquents became much more fodder-like after the Valhalla arc, and only the main spotlights were higher characters then. And mid tiers include some gang captains, vice captains, etc.)
4. No name detectives: Athletic human to Peak human
5. Takemichi: Immobile (Wouldn't attack a person because he's "kindhearted")

Using subsonic would still be calc statcking since you take the speed from feats I already stated my opinion about it

 

[Syncornize]

I am neutral about anything else (because I don't for this verse damn) but would just want to state my opinion on these things:

1. Mikey, Izana, DI South, Senju: FTE Subsonic most of the times when there are trails (Literally known for kicking faster than human perception every time they kick. The three of these are literal three deities who ruled over a city or something. There's no way we can compensate for them to have a lower speed, specially when these people are like supersonic+ or something, and are not known to attack at slower speeds.)
2. Other god tiers: Superhuman to FTE Subsonic with visual information only when the person attacked seriously looks like they aren't able to process it.
3. Some mid tiers: Superhuman (Even some normal delinquents are superhuman. Examples are the one who overpowered Baji for a few seconds in the Valhalla arc. This is the only example I could think of because the normal delinquents became much more fodder-like after the Valhalla arc, and only the main spotlights were higher characters then. And mid tiers include some gang captains, vice captains, etc.)
4. No name detectives: Athletic human to Peak human
5. Takemichi: Immobile (Wouldn't attack a person because he's "kindhearted")

the thread is really based on not using subsonic for calc as it would be calc stacking...... subsonic speed can only be used if the context of that action or hit has strong evidence that it is subsonic. hitting someone without them being able to raise their guard is not automatically an FTE feat. A person skilled in martial arts or combat sports could do it, Without too much context I think it is at best a superhuman feat.

 

[CorbinMLG]

Using subsonic would still be calc statcking since you take the speed from feats I already stated my opinion about it

I don't think it is exactly. You can use Athletic Human speed for example for a character that has been consistently portrayed as that fast throughout a story. It's just the same but to a higher degree.

 

[RoggerReggor]

Using subsonic would still be calc statcking since you take the speed from feats I already stated my opinion about it

I am pretty sure calc stacking is when you use literal supersonic+ or smth speeds to calculate speeds for other feats.

We should likely see more information to at least declare the speed (while using projectile formula or something). There's no damn way you use a slower speed than 34.3 m/s for Senju throwing an umbrella. She took a whole runup, almost touched the ground while throwing it, and even the author showed trails.

These characters are supersonic+, so when they extend their whole arms, show like they are actually trying while kicking (or at least have reasons to), we should likely use FTE speeds because these characters are around that speed while being casual and attacking normal delinquents.

 

[MorrisHatesYou]

A person skilled in martial arts or combat sports could do it, Without too much context I think it is at best a superhuman feat.

Not if the other person has subsonic reactions

 

[MorrisHatesYou]

There's no damn way you use a slower speed than 34.3 m/s for Senju throwing an umbrella. She took a whole runup, almost touched the ground while throwing it, and even the author showed trails.

I agree, the panel portrays that she was using all of her strength, and she's like the top 5 of the verse

 

[Syncornize]

I am pretty sure calc stacking is when you use literal supersonic+ or smth speeds to calculate speeds for other feats.

We should likely see more information to at least declare the speed (while using projectile formula or something). There's no damn way you use a slower speed than 34.3 m/s for Senju throwing an umbrella. She took a whole runup, almost touched the ground while throwing it, and even the author showed trails.

These characters are supersonic+, so when they extend their whole arms, show like they are actually trying while kicking (or at least have reasons to), we should likely use FTE speeds because these characters are around that speed while being casual and attacking normal delinquents.

this thread is questioning supersonic + calculations, so using it as an assumption for FTE i don't find it reasonable for now. calc stacking doesn't only apply on certain speeds but only in certain "contexts"

 

[Agnaa]

I don't think it is exactly. You can use Athletic Human speed for example for a character that has been consistently portrayed as that fast throughout a story. It's just the same but to a higher degree.

Yeah, because that's within the realm of what's possible for humans.

I am pretty sure calc stacking is when you use literal supersonic+ or smth speeds to calculate speeds for other feats.

We should likely see more information to at least declare the speed (while using projectile formula or something). There's no damn way you use a slower speed than 34.3 m/s for Senju throwing an umbrella. She took a whole runup, almost touched the ground while throwing it, and even the author showed trails.

These characters are supersonic+, so when they extend their whole arms, show like they are actually trying while kicking (or at least have reasons to), we should likely use FTE speeds because these characters are around that speed while being casual and attacking normal delinquents.

Not if the other person has subsonic reactions

Fair enough if you think that, but the line we draw for assumptions on these sorts of feats is "something that humans can do". Everything else has to be derived from within that scene itself. So them having Supersonic+ feats elsewhere is irrelevant, in our eyes. They could have half a dozen FTL statements, and in a scene that doesn't have them, we'd assume them to be peak human.

 

[Zefra3011]

I don't think it is exactly. You can use Athletic Human speed for example for a character that has been consistently portrayed as that fast throughout a story. It's just the same but to a higher degree.

Mikey is only subsonic against Taiju, before he has no feats, the second comes from Angryin tenjiku, these are the only feats subsonic, where is the cosistency? For Osanai and Hanma base superhuman speed is enough in fact I suggested it to use for Mikey, for other kicks you have no context for saying they are subsonic

 

[Vapourrrrr]

Yeah, because that's within the realm of what's possible for humans.


Fair enough if you think that, but the line we draw for assumptions on these sorts of feats is "something that humans can do". Everything else has to be derived from within that scene itself. So them having Supersonic+ feats elsewhere is irrelevant, in our eyes. They could have half a dozen FTL statements, and in a scene that doesn't have them, we'd assume them to be peak human.

TR characters aren't normal humans though I don't get the problem

 

[Vapourrrrr]

Mikey is only subsonic against Taiju, before he has no feats, the second comes from Angryin tenjiku, these are the only feats subsonic, where is the cosistency? For Osanai and Hanma base superhuman speed is enough in fact I suggested it to use for Mikey

Mikey is subsonic in the Valhalla arc to, not only that but characters like Angry are subsonic+ without scaling, theres also multiple more FTE feats like after images and many more, this shouldn't be a big problem, I think you haven't read the manga

 

[MorrisHatesYou]

Everything else has to be derived from within that scene itself

The umbrella feat should be fine then

 

[Zefra3011]

Mikey is subsonic in the Valhalla arc to, not only that but characters like Angry are subsonic+ without scaling, theres also multiple more FTE feats like after images and many more, this shouldn't be a big problem, I think you haven't read the manga

After images? I can do one in this moment still im not even peak human in speed

 

[Agnaa]

TR characters aren't normal humans though I don't get the problem

That applies to almost all other cases like this in fiction.

You can think our standards are dumb! A lot of people do. But it aims to avoid issues of chaining a bunch of different feats together to get way higher ratings than anything shown individually.

The umbrella feat should be fine then

From what I've seen of it, I don't think so. We're pretty careful with what we're willing to give Subsonic over.

 

[Vapourrrrr]

After images? I can do one in this moment still im not even peak human in speed

Bro you CANNOT create an after image with your speed what are you talking about..

 

[CorbinMLG]

where is the cosistency?

Mikey blitzing dozens of random delinquents in literally every conflict, him blitzing Osanai, Hanma (not just once either), Kazutora, Taiju, and a bunch of other characters. Every time he appears in a fight he blitzes at least one person not including Tenjiku because he only fought Izana who is comparable to him.

 

[Zefra3011]

Bro you CANNOT create an after image with your speed what are you talking about..

Move your hand fast in front of you

 

[Syncornize]

I personaggi TR non sono umani normali anche se non ho il problema

is not a valid reason. however wanting down a human spike or superhuman is definable as not being a normal human. this reasoning is similar to what would be cacl stacking If a speed fte applied.

 

[Zefra3011]

Mikey blitzing dozens of random delinquents in literally every conflict, him blitzing Osanai, Hanma (not just once either), Kazutora, Taiju, and a bunch of other characters. Every time he appears in a fight he blitzes at least one person not including Tenjiku because he only fought Izana who is comparable to him.

Blitzing Osanai and Hanma is subsonic?
Is barely superhuman

 

[Syncornize]

Mikey blitzing dozens of random delinquents in literally every conflict, him blitzing Osanai, Hanma (not just once either), Kazutora, Taiju, and a bunch of other characters. Every time he appears in a fight he blitzes at least one person not including Tenjiku because he only fought Izana who is comparable to him.

if you want to read the message I sent just now, I talked about it right there

 

[Vapourrrrr]

Move your hand fast in front of you

Are you cooked, Senju and other characters did it metres away from the camera or whatever, moving your hand only blurs your hand it does NOT create after images