Calc Stacking in Tokyo Revengers

[Zefra3011]

So let’s use professional javelin speed.

Agnaa disagreed with it

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Why?

 

[Zefra3011]

Why?

the object is still different and an umbrella isn't made to be thrown as a javelin, he prefers to have an actual speed from a thrown umbrella than assuming the speed based on the javelin's speed

 

[SeijiSetto]

They unironically would. If that wasn't the case then Izana would have never died, his body could have just deflected the bullets and the bullets could have never pierced his skin as they are literally only street level.

I have no dog in this fight but this reasoning was absolutely horrible. A swung katana only has like 300 J of KE but would still kill these characters because it's a sharp object. Bullets are tiny, so all that force into such a small area (basically the definition of pressure which is what matters) would still kill him.

 

[RoggerReggor]

Then Hanma would be relative with Izana which makes no sense whatsoever, and Angry > Izana if what you said is true.

Hanma doesn't equal Izana in any way. Hanma gave Mikey a bit of pressure, Izana was seriously dominating. And there are some people like me who believe that Izana > Mikey (Tenjiku Arc)

What? Takemichi literally went on par with Kakucho in the final arc

Takemichi couldn't defend while Kakucho needed to defend for him when attacked by Sanzu. Kakucho was still having the major share in the fight.

 

[RoggerReggor]

I have no dog in this fight but this reasoning was absolutely horrible. A swung katana only has like 300 J of KE but would still kill these characters because it's a sharp object. Bullets are tiny, so all that force into such a small area (basically the definition of pressure which is what matters) would still kill him.

Completely missed my point?

My entire stuff was to be focused on this:

The muscles of the characters should be comparable to muscles of real humans. It's just that they have an energy level in hundreds of kilojoules and much higher than that of normal humans.

But good job trimming my lines just to get likes.

 

[RoggerReggor]

Why would he not go all out if he was serious? Anime-only scenes should be ignored.

So, your entire point is that Mikey was being serious while being done by Hanma at the same time? If I am not wrong, Mikey's signature attacks are his roundhouse kicks where he even drags the body of his opponents with his kicks.

The anime even shows this. The one-shot roundhouse kick had a great sound while the previous attacks had none. In the same arc as well, Mikey has attacked many people which produced the same amount of sound as previously done confrontation with Hanma. So, the anime itself interprets it like Mikey didn't actually go all-out all the time. And hey, sounds can define intensity as well.

Which is like 60% of their strength. Going to 100% would have the same drawbacks that normal humans have, because the strength increase is the same.

Hey, I am not saying he would be using all the 100%. But comparatively higher than his normal self. Don't take it to 100% directly. We have seen him struggle to attack again, and Takemichi even attacked him when he was in bad-balance. (In the final arc).

He did get a lot stronger. He had to use his signature kick when fighting Hanma for the first time, Hanma just either blocked/dodged it or tanked it. This time he couldn't do either.

Mikey's strength is not increasing, it's still on the par with everyone. He is just 15 years old so his body should become a bit stronger every time. And we know that people are becoming stronger and stronger, like even Takemichi did. Even Taiju tanked many characters. Likewise, Mikey's strength is increasing at the same rate, it's nothing supernatural like strength increase in him. There's no direct indication for it, the only stuff indicated is that Mikey had his DI increasing with time, and that's why he was even afraid that one day he would reach the pinnacle of all the darkness, which he even does.

Not really, you just need to do a bit of an analyzation and research and you can figure it out.

Did it already, thanks for that though.

Takemichi has the best stamina and endurance in the series so you really shouldn't be surprised. He also isn't much weaker than Kakucho, they are comparable, plus Kakucho is actually the second or third strongest there.

Pain tolerance is a different thing, and durability as well. Takemichi has the most motivation to fight and I agree that's endurance. People considered him as strong because "he never gave up". It isn't like everyone in the final arc just gave up.

The only time he significantly gets stronger is during Valhalla.

And that's not enough as his development should be exponentially equal and not sometimes much more and sometimes much less. You are still not agreeing over how Mikey basically discovered who killed his bro. His DI is literally "made out of love", it's obvious that he should reach the pinnacle of darkness for sometime just to do his opponents if something that serious happened.

 

[SeijiSetto]

But good job trimming my lines just to get likes.

Please don't be like that.

You were talking about the whole "you can only use X% of your strength, using 100% will strain your body and do damage" thing. As I said, I am not involved in that argument.

My issue was when you said that 9-B (kilojoule-ish range) characters would be able to tank/deflect bullets off their skin because the energy is below their dura, at which point I stepped in and said what I said. In your own words:

They unironically would. If that wasn't the case then Izana would have never died, his body could have just deflected the bullets and the bullets could have never pierced his skin as they are literally only street level. The muscles of the characters should be comparable to muscles of real humans. It's just that they have an energy level in hundreds of kilojoules and much higher than that of normal humans.

Now I've quoted the entire post and highlighted the part I have an issue with so people can better read the entire context, is that more to your liking?

Swords and sharp/high-pressure objects like bullets inherently have """dura neg""" (not exactly, hence the triple quotes) on account of their sharpness, so the argument about bullets (typically 9-C) not being able to harm Izana (At least 9-B) makes literally no sense and I felt obligated to call you out on it.

Even in real life, when people wear bulletproof vests and such then get shot in the chest, they often get broken ribs. This further goes to show that normal humans could tank the KE (albeit damaged) but the piercing is the entire problem here. TR characters' muscles are not bulletproof vests.

I did not trim your lines for likes, you made a bad argument and I felt the need to correct you.

 

[RoggerReggor]

Please don't be like that.

Was not intending to say it like you might have read it. Apologies.

You were talking about the whole "you can only use X% of your strength, using 100% will strain your body and do damage" thing. As I said, I am not involved in that argument.

My issue was when you said that 9-B (kilojoule-ish range) characters would be able to tank/deflect bullets off their skin because the energy is below their dura, at which point I stepped in and said what I said. In your own words:

Now I've quoted the entire post and highlighted the part I have an issue with so people can better read the entire context, is that more to your liking?

It was all "hypothetically ironical". I was arguing with someone and with the logic they gave me, accordingly, it should happen like that to be honest. And I even mentioned that muscles of these characters and their bodies would be comparable to the real-life humans in this matter (I did mention it).

Even I can read the durability page:

Swords and sharp/high-pressure objects like bullets inherently have """dura neg""" (not exactly, hence the triple quotes) on account of their sharpness, so the argument about bullets (typically 9-C) not being able to harm Izana (At least 9-B) makes literally no sense and I felt obligated to call you out on it.

I did not trim your lines for likes, you made a bad argument and I felt the need to correct you.

It's something I already understand. I have a habit of talking with taunting people, whether they be friends or some strangers online. So I myself write stuff with sarcasm but sometimes people do misunderstand it.

Sorry for that.

 

[MorrisHatesYou]

Hanma doesn't equal Izana in any way. Hanma gave Mikey a bit of pressure, Izana was seriously dominating. And there are some people like me who believe that Izana > Mikey (Tenjiku Arc)

Let me tell you why it still doesn't make sense.
So,
Angry> Mucho low diff
Mucho> Mid tiers low diff
Hanma> mid tiers mid diff
So, Mucho > Hanma like mid-high diff.
Hanma = Moebius Mikey
So Angry > Mikey very low diff.

This doesn't make a lot of sense if you ask me. The only conclusion is that, like I said, Mikey physical capabilities grows at a very fast rate.

Takemichi couldn't defend while Kakucho needed to defend for him when attacked by Sanzu. Kakucho was still having the major share in the fight.

I'm just saying Takemichi is on par with Kakucho in the final arc.

 

[RoggerReggor]

Let me tell you why it still doesn't make sense.
So,
Angry> Mucho low diff
Mucho> Mid tiers low diff
Hanma> mid tiers mid diff
So, Mucho > Hanma like mid-high diff.
Hanma = Moebius Mikey
So Angry > Mikey very low diff.

This doesn't make a lot of sense if you ask me. The only conclusion is that, like I said, Mikey physical capabilities grows at a very fast rate.

Mikey seriously had beaten those mid-tiers. Another conclusion would be that Mikey was not blood-lusted and didn't have the killing intent like he does with DI. There's not only one conclusion to this.

I'm just saying Takemichi is on par with Kakucho in the final arc.

Kakucho has a major share though. Likely 60-40.

 

[RoggerReggor]

And guys, stop arguing about Mikey being FTE in the final arc as the calc done previously had POV and distances problems and Takemichi doesn't get past subsonic as calculated by Zefra. It's highly debatable and it would be just like Izana saving Kakucho from bullets calc.

There's a lot of debating about protection of supersonic+ feats. So, you should seriously focus on protecting them.

 

[MorrisHatesYou]

Mikey seriously had beaten those mid-tiers. Another conclusion would be that Mikey was not blood-lusted and didn't have the killing intent like he does with DI. There's not only one conclusion to this.

Mikey wasn't at DI state against Hanma and Izana.

 

[RoggerReggor]

Mikey wasn't at DI state against Hanma and Izana.

Personally, Izana > Mikey (Tenjiku arc).

Against Hanma, he might very well be.

 

[MorrisHatesYou]

Personally, Izana > Mikey (Tenjiku arc).

Against Hanma, he might very well be.

And my point is, Tenjiku Mikey > Moebius Mikey

 

[RoggerReggor]

And my point is, Tenjiku Mikey > Moebius Mikey

I mean, of course.

His dark impulse is growing with every moment, but his physical stats are growing at the same rate as other characters.

 

[CorbinMLG]

The anime even shows this. The one-shot roundhouse kick had a great sound while the previous attacks had none. In the same arc as well, Mikey has attacked many people which produced the same amount of sound as previously done confrontation with Hanma. So, the anime itself interprets it like Mikey didn't actually go all-out all the time. And hey, sounds can define intensity as well.

He is serious, he is in a hurry, there is no reason for him not to go all out and use his signature kick. The anime-only fight scene really doesn't matter.

Hey, I am not saying he would be using all the 100%. But comparatively higher than his normal self. Don't take it to 100% directly.

Well that's different yes, but even 80 to 90% would have its drawbacks, just weaker. You also still need to prove it because it has no basis.

We have seen him struggle to attack again, and Takemichi even attacked him when he was in bad-balance. (In the final arc).

Takemichi just simply adapted to Mikey's attack pattern and attacked him when he was open.

Mikey's strength is not increasing, it's still on the par with everyone. He is just 15 years old so his body should become a bit stronger every time. And we know that people are becoming stronger and stronger, like even Takemichi did. Even Taiju tanked many characters. Likewise, Mikey's strength is increasing at the same rate, it's nothing supernatural like strength increase in him. There's no direct indication for it, the only stuff indicated is that Mikey had his DI increasing with time, and that's why he was even afraid that one day he would reach the pinnacle of all the darkness, which he even does.

His strength did increase massively. Hanma was able to put up a fight against Mikey during Mobius, and then during Tenjiku a weakened version of himself was comparable to Izana. He had to get a lot stronger at some point, because otherwise Hanma would be comparable to Izana. Also, other characters aren't becoming stronger and stronger, only arguably Takemichi with Resolution, since his willpower gets stronger and stronger.

Pain tolerance is a different thing, and durability as well. Takemichi has the most motivation to fight and I agree that's endurance. People considered him as strong because "he never gave up". It isn't like everyone in the final arc just gave up.

Takemichi's endurance is just far better by a huge margin. You can't even knock him out because of his willpower. He can quite literally fight until death.

And that's not enough as his development should be exponentially equal and not sometimes much more and sometimes much less.

He had to become a lot stronger during Valhalla because he was able to blitz and one-shot Hanma. Even if you argue that it was somehow thanks to his dark impulses, at minimum he had to get far stronger during Black Dragon because he blitzed and one-shot Taiju without dark impulses. Valhalla just makes a lot more sense because there you can at least connect it to something, as nothing out of ordinary happened to him during Black Dragon.

 

[MorrisHatesYou]

I mean, of course.

His dark impulse is growing with every moment, but his physical stats are growing at the same rate as other characters.

But it doesn't really matter since he wasn't on Di on both occasions.

 

[RoggerReggor]

He is serious, he is in a hurry, there is no reason for him not to go all out and use his signature kick. The anime-only fight scene really doesn't matter.

Hanma did actually take a little time to recover from his kicks. In the ohko too, he was still talking if I am not wrong.

Well that's different yes, but even 80 to 90% would have its drawbacks, just weaker. You also still need to prove it because it has no basis.

He has shown it. Takemichi succeeded in attacking Mikey and even observed that Mikey took time between his kicks.

Takemichi just simply adapted to Mikey's attack pattern and attacked him when he was open.

The outcome I said is highly probable as well. A serious kick is above 70% strength already if I am not wrong, likely much higher to 80% as you thrown your entire bodyweight.

His strength did increase massively. Hanma was able to put up a fight against Mikey during Mobius, and then during Tenjiku a weakened version of himself was comparable to Izana. He had to get a lot stronger at some point, because otherwise Hanma would be comparable to Izana. Also, other characters aren't becoming stronger and stronger, only arguably Takemichi with Resolution, since his willpower gets stronger and stronger.

Other characters are becoming stronger. Chifuyu is becoming stronger and stronger. Koko and his bud (I don't remember his name) became stronger. Taiju likely also became stronger, and just because only these characters have a stuff like that doesn't mean others are not evolving. A person's physical prime is not really shown in their teenage, it is actually at 25. Teenage is a time of drastic development. Using real-world logics, there strengths should and will increase.

Takemichi's endurance is just far better by a huge margin. You can't even knock him out because of his willpower. He can quite literally fight until death.

Well, endurance is not actually physical strength in any way. It's just pure will power. We have seen characters like Taiju and others rise up as well, but at a lot weaker state, while Takemichi actually did acquire some good stuff. Not to mention that he even managed to block/dodge his kicks.

He had to become a lot stronger during Valhalla because he was able to blitz and one-shot Hanma. Even if you argue that it was somehow thanks to his dark impulses, at minimum he had to get far stronger during Black Dragon because he blitzed and one-shot Taiju without dark impulses. Valhalla just makes a lot more sense because there you can at least connect it to something, as nothing out of ordinary happened to him during Black Dragon.

Moebius and Valhalla are almost simultaneous arcs. Christmas Showdown arc has at least some gap in between. But, I would say that Valhalla arc Mikey was purely strong because of his dark impulses ngl.

And rejoice, thanks to one of my friends for pointing out that a person with seriousness or dedication about something can do anything in the TR verse. For example, Takemichi seeking to fight people till death while not being injured (that's a question for durability) and Shinichiro punching the walls while severely bleeding. Shinichiro and Mikey are the same blood. Though qualities don't come hereditarily, Shinichiro being in his environment might be like that for him. So, Mikey might not even care about small drawbacks if he goes serious, and we see that how Takemichi attacks him.

 

[RoggerReggor]

But it doesn't really matter since he wasn't on Di on both occasions.

Against Hanma, he was blood-lusted as he discovered who killed Shin, that's arguable.

 

[MorrisHatesYou]

Against Hanma, he was blood-lusted as he discovered who killed Shin, that's arguable.

I'm referring to the moebius fight.

 

[RoggerReggor]

I'm referring to the moebius fight.

And I am doing it for the Valhalla arc...

 

[MorrisHatesYou]

And I am doing it for the Valhalla arc...

I literally mentioned Moebius Mikey.

 

[RoggerReggor]

I literally mentioned Moebius Mikey.

Beh, I agreed with the Tenjiku Mikey > Moebius Mikey stuff already.

But the gap between Moebius Mikey and Valhalla Mikey normal keys shouldn't be astronomical like you said.

 

[MorrisHatesYou]

Beh, I agreed with the Tenjiku Mikey > Moebius Mikey stuff already.

But the gap between Moebius Mikey and Valhalla Mikey normal keys shouldn't be astronomical like you said.

That doesn't refute my premise though.

 

[RoggerReggor]

That doesn't refute my premise though.

It does. Most of the strength of Mikey we see in the Valhalla arc is when he should be DI.

 

[MorrisHatesYou]

It does. Most of the strength of Mikey we see in the Valhalla arc is when he should be DI.

No, I'm referring to his physical capabilities growing at a very fast rate. The gap between Tenjiku and Moebius isn't that huge.

 

[RoggerReggor]

No, I'm referring to his physical capabilities growing at a very fast rate. The gap between Tenjiku and Moebius isn't that huge.

The gap between Tenjiku and Moebius is huge, Moebius and Valhalla should be as exponential as the previous one.

 

[MorrisHatesYou]

The gap between Tenjiku and Moebius is huge, Moebius and Valhalla should be as exponential as the previous one.

I meant to say the gap isn't huge considering how fast Mikey got stronger.

Like the scaling chain I've given, in Moebius arc you can say Angry> Moebius Mikey low diff.

But in Tenjiku, it's clear that Mikey > Kakucho, and Kakucho low diffed Angry.

See how stronger Mikey gets?

 

[RoggerReggor]

I meant to say the gap isn't huge considering how fast Mikey got stronger.

Like the scaling chain I've given, in Moebius arc you can say Angry> Moebius Mikey low diff.

But in Tenjiku, it's clear that Mikey > Kakucho, and Kakucho low diffed Angry.

See how stronger Mikey gets?

Nice, but I already agreed over how Mikey's strength increases as his impulses are growing stronger. But the growth should be equal in respect to time. For example, he would grow stronger in 2 years more than he does in 2 months of course.

 

[MorrisHatesYou]

Nice, but I already agreed over how Mikey's strength increases as his impulses are growing stronger. But the growth should be equal in respect to time. For example, he would grow stronger in 2 years more than he does in 2 months of course.

I can definitely agree with that, it's just that, in comparison to other characters, he grows faster.

 

[RoggerReggor]

I can definitely agree with that, it's just that, in comparison to other characters, he grows faster.

F, don't tell me we were arguing about just the amount of growth during Valhalla arc and its gap when none of the feats here include the Valhalla arc lol. But we certainly can get to a conclusion that Mikey with DI/100% Series should be FTE.

@Zefra3011 do tell us your views on this one.

 

[RoggerReggor]

Also, we should target big sparrows like the supersonic+ feats for discussion. The premises of the feats has been a problem. I certainly don't think Agnaa alone would be able to declare everything (though he can because he's Agnaa). The previous thread also had a big discussion but never reached a conclusion. We should target one feat at once.

Zefra already put his stuff, the supporters should argue for one feat at a time.

 

[CorbinMLG]

Hanma did actually take a little time to recover from his kicks. In the ohko too, he was still talking if I am not wrong.

He has shown it. Takemichi succeeded in attacking Mikey and even observed that Mikey took time between his kicks.

The outcome I said is highly probable as well. A serious kick is above 70% strength already if I am not wrong, likely much higher to 80% as you thrown your entire bodyweight.

I honestly have no clue what you are arguing for here.

Other characters are becoming stronger. Chifuyu is becoming stronger and stronger. Koko and his bud (I don't remember his name) became stronger. Taiju likely also became stronger, and just because only these characters have a stuff like that doesn't mean others are not evolving. A person's physical prime is not really shown in their teenage, it is actually at 25. Teenage is a time of drastic development. Using real-world logics, there strengths should and will increase.

From the beginning of the series to Tenjiku none of them showed any increase in strength. The 2 year time skip is far longer, but definitely won't cause massive strength increases, especially since they are out of shape and rusty.

But, I would say that Valhalla arc Mikey was purely strong because of his dark impulses ngl.

Dark impulses making Mikey stronger can be easily debunked because a non-weakened Tenjiku Arc Mikey scales right exactly where Final Arc Mikey scales with dark impulses.

So, Mikey might not even care about small drawbacks if he goes serious

Sure, but him becoming stronger with dark impulses still has no basis.

 

[RoggerReggor]

I honestly have no clue what you are arguing for here.

read it again-

From the beginning of the series to Tenjiku none of them showed any increase in strength. The 2 year time skip is far longer, but definitely won't cause massive strength increases, especially since they are out of shape and rusty.

Beh, they became stupidly strong. They were like low-mid tiers of the verse and jumped up to mid-high tiers of the verse, and seriously battled with some crazy shoots.

Dark impulses making Mikey stronger can be easily debunked because a non-weakened Tenjiku Arc Mikey scales right exactly where Final Arc Mikey scales with dark impulses.

Already said that dark impulses don't make him stronger, it's his bloodlust and dedication to kill people.

Sure, but him becoming stronger with dark impulses still has no basis.

...

 

[Fikriskps]

this definetely is a verse thread discussion

 

[Fikriskps]

1k message is insane, yall better get a conclution soon.

Even owari no seraph discussion is wayless than this thread message’s

 

[CorbinMLG]

Hanma did actually take a little time to recover from his kicks.

When?

Mikey took time between his kicks.

That's natural. You can't continuously attack someone with absolutely no delay.

The outcome I said is highly probable as well. A serious kick is above 70% strength already if I am not wrong, likely much higher to 80% as you thrown your entire bodyweight.

What are you arguing for here? His kicks are stronger than his punches yes, that's obvious. Strength percentage doesn't increase though just because there is more body mass behind a strike.

Beh, they became stupidly strong. They were like low-mid tiers of the verse and jumped up to mid-high tiers of the verse, and seriously battled with some crazy shoots.

Mitsuya and Hakkai for example stayed exactly where they were before strength wise. Same with Chifuyu, just this time he was able to finish his fight. Inui and Kokonoi just finally got to showcase their level of strength, it wouldn't make sense for them to get massively stronger if the others didn't either.

it's his bloodlust and dedication to kill people.

And whether that makes him stronger or not is arguable.

 

[RoggerReggor]

@CorbinMLG Please don't debate about arguable stuff. You are as correct as I am. And what we are debating right now is only appliable to Takemichi dodging kicks, which are basically going to get downgraded anyways. It would be much better if you argue about the "going to be downgraded" supersonic+ feats. That would be more productive. Whether DI makes him stronger or AD does can be done in a different thread as well.