MinatoSparkle
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Uh who is that? I searched up thier name but didn't find it.
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BM Minato should be Relativisitic+
- Thread starter MinatoSparkle
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Aside from the fact that this is an entirely different verse and has literally nothing to do with what I said, the English dub isn’t even used here. And that’s aside from the fact that the DB profiles are from the manga, not the anime.
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Let's just request it be translated, no sense in arguing in the officiality of what viz said if the original says something else.
MinatoSparkle
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The english dub of Naruto also calls shunshin teleportation sometimes, like calling Shisui Shisui of teleportation not Shisui of the Body Flicker like he's supposed to be. I think the same is true for the viz manga but don't quote me on that.
Where to ask that?
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We don't add multipliers unless the character in question is stated to have them. and reading through the entire thread i disagree for now
MinatoSparkle
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Not sure why the AP upgrade got rejected when I had almost proved the Kurama fight was valid but oh well...
It isn't a multiplier. It's just a boost from Kurama's chakra. It's linear. I really don't understand why it's so controversial to say 0.28+0.28=0.56. If I pulled these numbers out of nowhere I'd get it but BM gave Naruto a 0.28 SoL boost so it's just logical to assume Minato would get a similar boost since he has also has half of Kurama. The only debatable thing is whether Base Minato is faster than Tobirama which I've been proving. Tobirama's movement speed is relativistic since he got the ball before it exploded and Juubito expected it to be too fast for multiple Relativistic characters (well Minato is Rel+ but at that point his reactions were only Rel cuz "Obito is Madara!?") and Minato is faster than him when he's not dazed, if the translation is indeed shushin or body flicker than that's that. (even if it's not there are the implications that can be used but that's a bridge to cross when and if we get there)
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I've never seen addition be abused to this level.
You wanna tell me Minato's 2x as fast as Tobirama's combat speed because his travel speed was stated to be superior. Hilarious
You wanna tell me Minato's 2x as fast as Tobirama's combat speed because his travel speed was stated to be superior. Hilarious
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It got closed because the best scaling you had happened in Naruto's mind, in my mind I can be tier 10 to tier 1, Yah think I'm suddenly tier 1? No.
That is thought-out ill give you that, but since when have we given people more speed just because they have half the power of some relativistic guy? Even then it's case-by-case and this seems like some real folly.
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Yeah, something's definitely not right here.
MinatoSparkle
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No I'm saying it because BM gives a 0.28 SoL addition to movement speed and he has a base movement speed of 0.28+ SoL. One of Kurama chakra main attributes is movement speed considering the focus on it with kcm, so if he's Edo Madara combat speed in BM his movement speed is most likely on that level too.
Besides, there is the thing about Tobirama saying Minato is quick at strikiing and the implication that it was faster than Tobirama could see and that likely translates to combat speed but that's less solid so I'm using movement speed which is a much more clear cut argument.
Even if it's in the mind, the fact that everything that happened in there could plausbily happen makes me think it's not that flexible.
Not half the power. Half the power of Kurama is already Relativistic. And could you explain the folly?
Please don't close this again before I get the chance to prove Tobirama said Minato is faster.
And again, where do we ask translators for help?
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Nobody in this series has .28 SoL movement speed. That is COMBAT.
And until I see Tobirama say "You punch faster than me", Tobirama > Minato's combat speed.
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I could PLAUSIBLY pull of a star bust if I got some iron into a star, doesnt mean I'm tier 4.
The folly is that this breaks scaling left and right along with proof that characters that you claim Minato blitzes reacting to his combat speed just fine.
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This, this, so much this. The Relativistic calc for this series comes from Madara moving his arm and his reactions. That’s combat and reaction speed, and only that.
MinatoSparkle
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Why would you reply to everything I said in that AP thread then not give me the chance to respond? Seems pretty fishy to me.
And why pray tell is it faster? No dazed Minato feats. Besides that time, there is only implication that Minato>Tobirama in all speed related categories.
Yes because Minato...for the dozenth time, was dazed! Even the databook confirms this. I know the databooks can be unreliable, but they're helpful as supporting evidence, like in this case.
I just explained that Tobirama used movement speed to intercept a relativistic speed exploding blast. Prove that Tobirama marked somewhere near the area first then I'll back down on that point.
And why pray tell is it faster? No dazed Minato feats. Besides that time, there is only implication that Minato>Tobirama in all speed related categories.
Not what I mean and you know it...
Yes because Minato...for the dozenth time, was dazed! Even the databook confirms this. I know the databooks can be unreliable, but they're helpful as supporting evidence, like in this case.
Yes but Juubito has Relativistic combat speed. The ball he attached to Minato was too fast for everyone. The only one who sorta reacted was EMS Sasuke. And even then BM Minato had Relativistic reactions, so that means Tobirama's movement speed>Juubito's ball's attack speed, so Tobirama's movement speed=relativisitic.
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Oh I know, but why should events Naruto's mind, especially portrayed as it is, be useful for scaling?
Then bring me some combat speed feats that has Minato blitzing people comparable to Madara with proof of NOT using Shunshin.
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I didn't respond to a single thing. That was another member who requested it to be opened.
You didn't listen at all here either. Stop scaling to projectiles.
Gaara lifting Kakashi moved quicker than Madara's orbs. Lee carried Guy before orbs could hit Guy.
Stop scaling to projectiles.
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Nah projectile scaling is fine, cause obviously base Neji scales to KN0 in the chūnin exams since their shuriken clashed with each other. And obviously Sasori’s Hiruko puppet is > KN0 because it blocked his shuriken.
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Could you not be a condescending dick?
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I mean, Naruto won with that cheap shot.
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I apologize, I couldn’t help it.
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MinatoSparkle
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Because he wasn't able to effect Kurama at all in Base. That proves he can't just be as strong as he wants.
(Well I mean he did blitz "Madara" without FTG when he tried to stab baby Naruto) What do you mean without shunshin? I'm saying his shunshin is relativistic vis scaling to Tobirama. Why do you think body flicker is the same as FTG? They're clearly different. Body flicker or shunshin is something all ninja have access to. It's just using chakra to amp your speed.
I wrote that above the part I replied to you for that reason. Also you closed it before I could respond so...
wdym it moved quicker than Madara's orbs? Gaara said his sand wasn't fast enough against Madara. And we don't know how long before they hit him Lee started moving Guy.
All of the things with Madara's TSO were far less precise than Minato teleporting between them and Guy. Anyways we're not talking about TSO. It's a fact that mastered kcm Naruto and dazed BM Minato couldn't react to Juubito's attack, so that means it is relativistic.
They did scale to each other though. They almost knocked each other out. Naruto only won cause he used a shadow clone. And Sasori is indeed above KN0. He's masively underrated. And anyways those are not the same thing as speed scaling. So 0/10 burn, try again.
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Neji only scales to KN0 with his Kaiten. His base stats just scale above base Naruto.
He’s above KN0 with the Third Kazekage and his main body, I specified with the Hiruko puppet.
MinatoSparkle
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Well above Base Naruto actually.
Anyways that's irrelevant because power of projectiles and speed are very different subjects.
XSOULOFCINDERX
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That wasn't even KN0 Naruto that fought Neji, that was just Naruto with the smallest sliver of Kurama's Chakra ever considering his Features didn't even change like every other time KN0 comes out.
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Still not the best source considering we saw a head deflate like a balloon...
MinatoSparkle
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Ok but why is that relevant? XD
Like I said, Bee's partial transformation is very flexible. But probably best to stay on topic so this thread doesn't get prematurely closed too.
MinatoSparkle
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bump
MinatoSparkle
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This thread seems to be at an impasse so I'm gonna summarize some of the points I've made throughout.
Tobirama with raw movement speed, not FTG, ran to Juubito's exploding TSO and grabbed it before it blew up. This ball was fast enough that Mastered kcm Naruto and dazed BM Minato couldn't react, both of whom have relativistic reactions. Tobirama came from somewhere off panel, and he likely moved a fair distance given he wasn't involved in the battle at all for the whole chapter, and no he does NOT have an FTG marker anywhere there, he places a mark on Minato later to perform FTG recriprocal round robin. This shows he has Relativistic movement speed and of course Rel reactions. At prime condition, Base Minato moved faster than Tobirama to arrive at the battlefield. This means Base Minato has Relativistic Movement speed. Supporting evidence of Base Minato's speed generally being greater than Tobirama's and being Rel is Tobirama commenting that he strikes fast only after Minato confirmed he had struck, implying he struck too fast for Tobirama to see. There's also Tobirama being stated faster than EMS Madara and SM Hashirama, and while they don't have Rel movement feats, they are Rel in reactions, so it's decent support at the very least. Minato catching Madara's TSO and SM Minato swinging his arm 90 degrees before Madara could react are further implications that Minato is faster than Tobirama in combat speed and reaction speed. And of course there are the general implications throughout the series that Minato is the fastest shinobi that ever lived.
Base Naruto is MHS+. BM Naruto is Relativistic. Ask yourself why that is. It's not because his Base became faster. It's because mastering half of Kurama's chakra gives you a Relativistic boost in speed. One could argue BM Naruto is only Rel in reactions and combat speed since his justification is being able to fight Edo Madara, but you should remember that one of the biggest aspects of Kurama's chakra is movement speed. This is especially highlighted with kcm where he blitzed Ay and Kisame with movement speed, and that's his justification for sub rel movement speed, not reaction speed. So it'd be more of a stretch than not to say BM Naruto doesn't have movement speed that scales to his reactions.
Adding up the two 0.28~ speeds, and that makes BM Minato about 0.56 SoL, AKA Rel+. In summary: If you're talking about movement speed, Minato>Tobirama who has a rel feat, and BM probably gives a rel movement buff. If you're talking about combat speed, there's Minato striking with his kunai and Tobirama saying he's fast and the implications that Minato is superior and him being halfway to hitting Juubidara in SM and BM Naruto fighting at Madara's level who can move his arms at Relativistic speeds. If talking about reactions, Minato has to have reactions at least on par with his movement and he could catch TSO as mentioned, and Minato is implied faster than Tobirama in all aspects other than in the Juubito fight when he was nerfed, and BM Naruto can react to Edo Madara so BM gives a Rel reaction buff.
One counterarguments I've rebutted is the fact that projectile scaling is bad because of Lee Kakashi and Gaara reacting to the TSO. First, the Juubito and Juubidara situation aren't the same. Second, Minato's TSO feat required far more skill and precision than the others' feats did, which I discussed in more detail in comment 10 and 62. The only thing I got wrong was that Juubito didn't also attack with a TSO.
Another is the fact that BM Minato performed worse than Tobirama against Juubito. This is entirely ignoring the context of Minato finding out Obito was the masked man. Another argument is that Teen Obito reacted to Minato, and no he didn't. The time he did at the monument wasn't a fair situation. Obito was completely prepared for an attack and the direction Minato would attack from and Minato spinning to attack makes it slower. He also moved his hand as fast as Minato with a rasengan, but Minato intentionally had to not strike too fast cause he even said he needed to attack the instant Obito materialized to touch him. Besides those two moments Obito had his ass handed to him. Something concrete that proves Minato>>Obito is that literally right after Obito said he couldn't let his guard down around Minato he got stabbed. So even on guard expecting an attack he got stabbed and had his contract removed. So yeah whoever argued Obito ~ Minato, try again.
BM Minato's speed likely scales to or below BSM Naruto EMS SM Sasuke and Juubito, plus any other character below FTL but well above normal Relativistic characters like the founders. I can't think of any, but if there are others please mention them. Maybe Base Adult Naruto.
All this justification said, I recognize there is some small level of assumption in a few of my arguments, so I wouldn't object to "At least Relativistic (Superior to Bijū Mode Naruto), possibly Relativistic+ (he should get a boost similar to Bijū Mode Naruto)." And of course the necessary adjustments to Base Minato's justifications, because his only justification right now implies FTL reactions because there isn't anything said in his profile about TSO being shown as slower than the user, and as much as I love Minato I know he's not that fast, especially not in Base.
If you don't think likely reasoning like this is enough, remember that Samehada fusion Kisame is considered sub-relativistic because he outsped V2 Bee in water even though battles don't normally take place in water, and of course someone who's body is not made for swimming would be slower in water than on land. This is far from the weakest justification for a characters's speed in the verse
Tobirama with raw movement speed, not FTG, ran to Juubito's exploding TSO and grabbed it before it blew up. This ball was fast enough that Mastered kcm Naruto and dazed BM Minato couldn't react, both of whom have relativistic reactions. Tobirama came from somewhere off panel, and he likely moved a fair distance given he wasn't involved in the battle at all for the whole chapter, and no he does NOT have an FTG marker anywhere there, he places a mark on Minato later to perform FTG recriprocal round robin. This shows he has Relativistic movement speed and of course Rel reactions. At prime condition, Base Minato moved faster than Tobirama to arrive at the battlefield. This means Base Minato has Relativistic Movement speed. Supporting evidence of Base Minato's speed generally being greater than Tobirama's and being Rel is Tobirama commenting that he strikes fast only after Minato confirmed he had struck, implying he struck too fast for Tobirama to see. There's also Tobirama being stated faster than EMS Madara and SM Hashirama, and while they don't have Rel movement feats, they are Rel in reactions, so it's decent support at the very least. Minato catching Madara's TSO and SM Minato swinging his arm 90 degrees before Madara could react are further implications that Minato is faster than Tobirama in combat speed and reaction speed. And of course there are the general implications throughout the series that Minato is the fastest shinobi that ever lived.
Base Naruto is MHS+. BM Naruto is Relativistic. Ask yourself why that is. It's not because his Base became faster. It's because mastering half of Kurama's chakra gives you a Relativistic boost in speed. One could argue BM Naruto is only Rel in reactions and combat speed since his justification is being able to fight Edo Madara, but you should remember that one of the biggest aspects of Kurama's chakra is movement speed. This is especially highlighted with kcm where he blitzed Ay and Kisame with movement speed, and that's his justification for sub rel movement speed, not reaction speed. So it'd be more of a stretch than not to say BM Naruto doesn't have movement speed that scales to his reactions.
Adding up the two 0.28~ speeds, and that makes BM Minato about 0.56 SoL, AKA Rel+. In summary: If you're talking about movement speed, Minato>Tobirama who has a rel feat, and BM probably gives a rel movement buff. If you're talking about combat speed, there's Minato striking with his kunai and Tobirama saying he's fast and the implications that Minato is superior and him being halfway to hitting Juubidara in SM and BM Naruto fighting at Madara's level who can move his arms at Relativistic speeds. If talking about reactions, Minato has to have reactions at least on par with his movement and he could catch TSO as mentioned, and Minato is implied faster than Tobirama in all aspects other than in the Juubito fight when he was nerfed, and BM Naruto can react to Edo Madara so BM gives a Rel reaction buff.
One counterarguments I've rebutted is the fact that projectile scaling is bad because of Lee Kakashi and Gaara reacting to the TSO. First, the Juubito and Juubidara situation aren't the same. Second, Minato's TSO feat required far more skill and precision than the others' feats did, which I discussed in more detail in comment 10 and 62. The only thing I got wrong was that Juubito didn't also attack with a TSO.
Another is the fact that BM Minato performed worse than Tobirama against Juubito. This is entirely ignoring the context of Minato finding out Obito was the masked man. Another argument is that Teen Obito reacted to Minato, and no he didn't. The time he did at the monument wasn't a fair situation. Obito was completely prepared for an attack and the direction Minato would attack from and Minato spinning to attack makes it slower. He also moved his hand as fast as Minato with a rasengan, but Minato intentionally had to not strike too fast cause he even said he needed to attack the instant Obito materialized to touch him. Besides those two moments Obito had his ass handed to him. Something concrete that proves Minato>>Obito is that literally right after Obito said he couldn't let his guard down around Minato he got stabbed. So even on guard expecting an attack he got stabbed and had his contract removed. So yeah whoever argued Obito ~ Minato, try again.
BM Minato's speed likely scales to or below BSM Naruto EMS SM Sasuke and Juubito, plus any other character below FTL but well above normal Relativistic characters like the founders. I can't think of any, but if there are others please mention them. Maybe Base Adult Naruto.
All this justification said, I recognize there is some small level of assumption in a few of my arguments, so I wouldn't object to "At least Relativistic (Superior to Bijū Mode Naruto), possibly Relativistic+ (he should get a boost similar to Bijū Mode Naruto)." And of course the necessary adjustments to Base Minato's justifications, because his only justification right now implies FTL reactions because there isn't anything said in his profile about TSO being shown as slower than the user, and as much as I love Minato I know he's not that fast, especially not in Base.
If you don't think likely reasoning like this is enough, remember that Samehada fusion Kisame is considered sub-relativistic because he outsped V2 Bee in water even though battles don't normally take place in water, and of course someone who's body is not made for swimming would be slower in water than on land. This is far from the weakest justification for a characters's speed in the verse
MinatoSparkle
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Oh and I forgot about the fact that Tobirama catching Juubito's TSO was with a clone, so his real self would be even faster. He stated his clones' FTG isn't as fast as him which implies his clones are slower than him.
P.S. and also the fact that even Dazed BM Minato teleported Naruto and Sasuke away before Uncontrolled Juubito could finish his attack that had already started.
P.S. and also the fact that even Dazed BM Minato teleported Naruto and Sasuke away before Uncontrolled Juubito could finish his attack that had already started.
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MinatoSparkle
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Look, if no one has any arguments to make against this, just let it be implemented already. This has gone on long enough.
@KingTempest
@Damage3245
@LordTracer
@DaReaperMan
@XSOULOFCINDERX
@Planck69
@Fastestthingalive50
? Anything solidly against a possibly or likely Relativistic+? For BM Minato, BSM Naruto, SM EMS Sasuke, Juubito, DMS Kakashi in that his speed should be at least rel+, likely FTL instead of just at least Rel, likely FTL, Base Six Paths Naruto/8 gates Guy/complete Juubi/Juubidara/Kaguya/Base Jigen would be the same.
@KingTempest
@Damage3245
@LordTracer
@DaReaperMan
@XSOULOFCINDERX
@Planck69
@Fastestthingalive50
? Anything solidly against a possibly or likely Relativistic+? For BM Minato, BSM Naruto, SM EMS Sasuke, Juubito, DMS Kakashi in that his speed should be at least rel+, likely FTL instead of just at least Rel, likely FTL, Base Six Paths Naruto/8 gates Guy/complete Juubi/Juubidara/Kaguya/Base Jigen would be the same.
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you can't ping people, you have to message them directly. I still don't agree with it, but I both hate Naruto and don't think those statements are enough to put Minato above everyone else.
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and the other thing you should consider is that people don't humor stone wallers for very long on this site, I'm probably the person who humors people the longest.
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I have a problem with the Relativist classification.
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This thread is based on the false premise that we hand out the "+" rating without a solid, stated, multiplier or accepted calculation to put the value there, but we do not. The most you can get for Minato is "Relativistic" scaling to the other Top tiers, which he already has. As such this thread is quite pointless and needs to be closed.
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Yeah, DMS Kakashi is absolutely likely ftl by this wiki's scaling, blitzing Kaguya and all.
MinatoSparkle
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What is 'everyone else' referring to?
Why am I not cooperating though? There are plenty of people in this thread that are far more uncooperative than me, refusing to reply to parts of messages when they didn't have an argument against it.
What do you mean?
Why is scaling not viable? And that's why I'm saying don't solidly hand out a +, just making it possible is fine. Because in the course of this thread I have proved that it's at least possible, and no one has argued against the points I collected to form a conclusion in the summary. Or if not that, at the very least "At least Relativistic," without the + part added at the end makes sense doesn't it? I really feel like I'm being fairly conservative in my arguments and even still it's being brushed aside as an illogical highball. Honestly At least Relativistic+ is what Minato should realistically have considering it's not known how much faster he is than Tobirama or how much faster Tobirama is than Edo Madara, but apparently even At least Relativistic from all these arguments isn't ok? Like...what?
Yeah, but Kaguya herself is listed as At least Relativistic, likely FTL.
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The calculation
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this page will help you.
Maybe its because your using statements but not feats, which the ladder takes preference over the former and will be accepted a whole lot more easily, but the NAIL in the coffin of this ENTIRE Content revision thread? Minato needs to be AT LEAST 50% the speed of light to get Relativistic+, unless there is an absolutely absurd speed scaling chain from 32% the speed of light then no staff would ever accept this. even if what you say is 100% true, Minato would only be an unquantifiable amount above everyone else he currently scales to and would not be getting Relativistic+ from pretty much just over halfway into Relativistic.
if that issue goes through it would turn this CRT completely on its head.
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Because we don't assign the "+" value without a calc or a multiplier as I've said, especially for speed. It's simply a wiki standard, we can't do much about it. In cases where a character has shown great superiority to another, we assign them with the "At least" and "likely higher" ratings.
The problem here is that nobody finds the evidence you've provided to be sufficient proof of Minato being that far above Tobirama, Madara, or Naruto in speed. His feats simply don't support the notion, and he has failed to blitz or outperform any of these characters. Dazed or not, we simply can't assume a speed value for him, and apply it.
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