Well this is my first CRT, I did think of the possibility of it being irrelevant but this was the only topic I could think of that doesn't argue for a major change but is controversial enough to attract attention.
Yeah, I think that's for the best. Would spare both of us the headache. I believe we have both made our points. Let's see what the staff have to say.
Idk why, Raikage's fastest attack is through Teleportation jutsu, that's what Minato dodged and that's what Kcm naruto dodged and its what Ay said was his fastest attack. So the point is that sure they can have relative reaction speed but overall speed they don't as this gets proven from Ay's own words.
Bare minimum? Jugo and Suigetsu all move to Sasuke's position before Darui and Ay can finish their swings, then later on Jugo powers up and reacts to raikage, at this point you're suggesting numerous people now scale to Ay and Minato off of Jugo and Suigestsu. And this isn't a preconceived scaling, it's something we've gone through for years, your scaling suggest a lot of people scale in speed to two of the fastest shinobi ever, and the story blatantly doesn't show that to be the case.
I'm not too knowledgeable on kanjis but from what I can see the kanji meant for strength/power/strong isn't there, 力
eh that looks like she's doing yeah. can see bottom left panel of her surprisewasn't the person that envisioned Minato Tsunade, not Fukasaku?
thats not Tsunade envisioning them ?? those are two separate scenes, it's why the panel is followed by the toads making the comparisonwasn't the person that envisioned Minato Tsunade, not Fukasaku?
It's the same scene. The panel is followed after Naruto beats a Pain in front of Tsunade. Fukasaku isn't even in the scene until Gamabunta makes the comment of Naruto reminding him of Jiraiya and Minato.
It's clearly Tsunade who is envisioning them. If you notice, the panel view is from Tsunade's perspective
But FTG is not his overall speed though. FTG is a special technique that allows Minato to teleport. FTG however would not make Minato's base speed, shunshin or combat speed any faster. Which would imply, via C's statement, V1 A4 would have superior combat and general than Minato.
Can you prove that Jugo and Suigetsu did not shunshin to just to block Darui and A4 in time.
I don't see any problem with them reacting.
I don't honestly see the relevance of this though. If you believe Jugo and Suigetsu scale to V1 Ay then by the scaling I have established for Minato, they would automatically scale to Minato as well. If you don't believe that, then they don't scale either to A4 or Minato. I don't see what you are trying to argue over here. I am not even the one who brought Jugo and Suigetsu up lol. You did. The only thing I tried to prove and am trying to prove here would be Minato's scaling to Base A4. You may not like certain characters scaling to Minato but that's not my problem. I simply cited evidence from the story to show their relativity, I don't see what you mean by 'not supported by the story'. That makes me think I used some Naruto rip-off to prove my argument rolf.
Even if you believe that. That's only Edo Minato who was stuck fighting Kurama for 17 years before being brought back.
"Stuck fighting Kurama for 17 years" what? This is the first I'm hearing of this ... Not to mention, Edo Minato should be inferior to living Minato
Yeah its what makes Minato so fast to everyone, people weren't praising him for his body flickr or reaction speed. And again, C is literally saying he's on par minato not above.
What? I'm saying they moved in time before Raikage could do his full swing, if you think it's shunshin then prove that, I haven't made a claim on if its regular speed or shunshin. And even given it is shunshin, that still means with shunshin they're above one of the fastest Kages.
There is no problem with them reacting, the issue is scaling them to Minato.
Ok I brought up Jugo and Suigetsu to show you that your scaling would suggest the fastest Hokage, Minato, is being matched by two randoms for reacting to Raikage regardless if its shunshin or not, your scaling ignores what the story has portrayed for Minato and Raikage, meaning it shouldn't be used if its not in line with the story. And it is your problem lmao, you can't suggest we remove scaling for one character and not supply scaling for how these other characters are effected by the downgrade, you can't just ignore this, or at the very least you should've addressed it in the thread to show you aren't ignoring that, since your scaling now is portraying characters in a completely different line than what the manga shows us.
You're referring to them being in the belly of the reaper yeah? This perspective seems to be ignored and never mentioned in pt 2, as if Kishi completely forgot about it, the issue also is that the kages talk to one another like they haven't changed in power at all.
Those sealed by the RDS are fated to fight for eternity as long as they are in the Reaper's belly.
For Minato, we have other evidence proving his Edo variant is stronger. Mind you, Living>Edo is a deduction since most shinobi can't grow stronger after death. Tobirama clearly states that they have been brought back close to their Original power, Minato's original power had the opportunity to grow even after death.
Base A4 is on par with Minato which would imply his V1 and V2 variants are faster.
I don't really have much of a problem. I was simply providing an explanation of how they could reach Sasuke and protect him in time.
I don't see any issue.
My friend, if you think they scale to A4 that's your problem. Once again, I did not make this CRT to discuss about Suigetsu and Jugo's standing. You do realize this wiki prioritizes feats over portrayal. So, if you think what Suigetsu and Jugo accomplished put them at A4's level by all means think so. I am not here and have no obligation to address that. The story itself is what gave these feats to these characters so, we have no reason but to accept them. If you feel it is not correct, feel free to make a downgrade thread on Suigetsu and Jugo.
And I agree as stated above. They don't have the feats to contend with FTG Minato or V2 A4.
My scaling does not ignore anything lol. Minato is a great and powerful shinobi. Your flaw is in thinking that Jugo and Suigetsu are some randos, they are not and even then they do not scale. There's no statement from any valid source that puts him above everyone else atleast no sources exist that cannot be interpreted differently to accommodate the statements in the OP.
That's not an argument. We have an explicit statement that was never stated or shown to be incorrect. Just because it comes from P1 is not a valid reason to reject it.
Bruh, C is saying V1 is on par with Minato, not base. Am I missing something?
We do prioritize feats, but as you can see on Minato's page, he has a possibly rating which uses a lot of statements and not only feats. And yeah the story gave those feats but I'm saying you're ignoring overall the story to present scaling that doesn't map onto the story. I don't see the disconnect you're having with my argument. And suigetsu and jugo aren't scaled to Raikage on their pages so I have no need to make a downgrade.
Then why are you using a V1 statement to limit Minato when he's also stated to be one of the people who dodged Raikage's fastest attack?
I guess you just have a terrible interpretation of Minato's status within the story, he's not just some great and powerful shinobi, he's a shinobi that surpassed Ay, stated by Ay himself, which goes against your scaling.
I really don't think knowing what Minato looks like means much about his knowledge. A random shinobi from another village could know what Hokage Naruto looks like, but not know his power. Bee also envisioned Hokage Minato despite not fighting him as Hokage, and as others brought up, it's Tsunade who saw Hokage Minato anyways.
I'm just gonna leave this here (+alternate translation)
That's that boi WinatoI really don't think knowing what Minato looks like means much about his knowledge. A random shinobi from another village could know what Hokage Naruto looks like, but not know his power. Bee also envisioned Hokage Minato despite not fighting him as Hokage, and as others brought up, it's Tsunade who saw Hokage Minato anyways.
I'm just gonna leave this here (+alternate translation)
全忍随一の神速を誇る武勇の誉れは、他里の猛者をも魅了する！
Its base though. He brings up Raiton manipulation after.
It does map into the story. I don't get your what exactly is the issue you have here.
Because he dodged it by FTG??
You have not read the fierce battle between Goku and me, have you? I have already seen that scan lol. Milly and I had already re-translated that statement since it wasn't exactly true. The translated statement imply that Minato being unsurpassable is a subjective opinion than an objective one. Other than that, I had given other interpretations of that statement even one in the OP.
Both you and I know that I believe that speed is in reference to FTG, lol.I'm just gonna leave this here (+alternate translation)
全忍随一の神速を誇る武勇の誉れは、他里の猛者をも魅了する！
My guy, if u think Minato's reaction speed is only relative to base Raikage, but he's also stated to have dodged Raikage's fastest attack then your argument falls apart.
A subjective opinion by Raikage?
You're aware that any character statement is subjective right.
That's a debatable interpretation if you take the first translation cause you could say people mistake FTG for speed, but saying that WoG would refer to FTG as Minato's speed is just not true. If that was so, why would Ay be compared to Minato's speed? He's not as fast as teleportation is he? Also speed is your rate of movement, which FTG doesn't have, because it pops you from one place to another, there's no literal movement to be had.
Sort of yeah, if you wanna get technical. But made you think/makes you think/made it seem etc. are being subjective as he's simply saying what he feels. They do not necessitate actually being. A4 here is not taking an objective viewpoint which we can understand from the usage of such terms. I know you are smart enough to know the difference between a person being subjective and objective, Alan.
Dude, its quite literally the second Databook that states that Minato's speed is renowned due to FTG. If you think databook statements are WOG, then the author has already said otherwise. You are technically right about how FTG work but it can't be helped if the author thinks differently of it.
You cannot dismiss C like that. C was not subjective since he took an impartial position on this and used a factual base to make his assertion, he was not expressing his perspective or feeling on this. A4 being subjective matters alot because subjective statements open the chance for them to be wrong even when the person has not been portrayed as unreliable like C. 'making it seem/making you think etc. does not necessitate actually being.
But based on what evidence is C a credible source on Minato? C was a 9-year-old when Minato died. He had no known ties to Minato that we know of or credible battles with him like Ay and Bee did. His opinion should be taken as nothing more than an opinion not factual information used to discredit Minato.
Why does the way he worded it change the fact that he believes Minato is unsurpassed. The fact that he's expressing it in an opinion can simply be because he knows he doesn't know everyone in the world so he's being on the safe side by saying he thinks it's true rather than stating it as a fact. Level of "objectivity" with which a statement is made doesn't change how valid their opinion is when we know the validity of their opinion from who they've seen in combat. You can use the fact that it's a subjective statement to argue that Minato isn't stronger than absolutely anyone else, and that Kishimoto's specifying it as Ay's opinion to not make it seem like Minato's stronger than Hashirama or Madara. I believe you've said yourself that Kishimoto uses characters as ways to express his opinion, and that most statements should be taken as true even if someone's knowledge is unknown because why would he have them say it otherwise. Then if Kishimoto's breaking that philosophy for this one statement because he knows those characters that are stronger than Minato, then it all makes sense why he'd have Ay word it that way.
It says FTG is why he was given the name "The Yellow Flash." That doesn't mean any statement about his speed is in reference to FTG, because of the Ay example I outlined earlier, which is from the same databook as the one about Minato being the fastest shinobi, making it a more valid reference in suggesting what speed is referring to in this context than one from 2 databooks earlier.
That's one interpretation. I simply proposed my other interpretation which remains logically consistent with my other arguments. A4's level of objectivity being less in that statement does open for the possibility of it being incorrect, I am simply using that possibility to support my overall argument which is based on explicit statements.
It also makes little to no distinction between his speed and FTG. The book goes on hyping his speed, only for it at the end to attribute it to FTG as per the second Databook.
So far so good.
That does not work since the second book blatantly refers to FTG as speed. So, speed in the context of both Minato and A4 in the fourth Databook could easily be interpreted as referring to Hirashin when it comes to Minato.
My interpretation also remains logically consistent with my other arguments. But besides that, you haven't explained why your interpretation is any more valid than mine, and if they're equal interpretations, then we're at a standstill, and your argument wouldn't go through.
And you know what else is speed? Actual, physical speed.
Jus accept it. Minato's fast.
I have already stated this earlier. You do not have any evidence that he did not see the man in battle. The author never portrayed him as an unreliable source and even had the databook hype his competence.
His is not a simple opinion for he states the reason as to why that is. Nerve conduction speed being the same in base and A4 augmenting that with Raiton. C must have credible information to make such a technical monologue otherwise it simply goes against the portrayal given by the author himself as the brains behind Ay's group.
You don't really have any evidence for that, do you? I mean, this would have some credibility if he was stating that aloud but this was inside his mind which means we are seeing his genuine belief here which we have no reason to believe is incorrect. But 'impartial' was a silp of the tongue or the hand. It seems impartial does not have the meaning I intended it to. What I meant was 'purely based on analysis of information by observation and verified facts'.
The very fact it is in his head makes it subjective, and one's genuine belief is in itself also subjective. What are you actually talking about rn.
I had explained that a bunch of times before though. My interpretation doesn't have making fanfic caveats to Fukasaku's statement, dismissing C or blatantly ignoring Bee. Since my argument fully accepts these apodictic statements for what they are and only reinterprets the other's statements (only in the room they have allowed) so that they remain logically consistent with them, my argument would be more valid based on Occam's razor. I keep the stronger statements intact and use the others to support.
I actually have no problem believing that though. To remain consistent with the statements from the manga, it would simply mean, as stated prior, Hokage Minato's shunshi=V1 Ay's speed.And you know what else is speed? Actual, physical speed.
Bruh, no, you're shooting yourself in the foot. You're never gonna win the point that Ay's physical speed is on par with space-time teleportation
In other words, you take any and all character statements at face value and don't question them as long as they're confident about it, despite the fact that that would create irreparable contradictions if applied on a universal scale. Also how come you didn't have this same mindset to Kakashi and Naruto saying Naruto's the only shinobi who can surpass the Fourth Hokage? They didn't express any unsureness in it. Also surpass doesn't have to refer to a future thing like you argued in your last large post, it just means being superior. If Naruto's the only one who can surpass the Fourth Hokage, that means no other shinobi surpassed him at the time.
Uh........That's not what you said. You said Ay can be comparable to FTG, because his title and speed are praised for FTG. Now you're backtracking and ignoring your previous point.
Well idt Somnius was trying to downgrade Minato's FTG for the second thing anyways (until just now at least)
no counters his reaction speed point, the ap point is clear Minato scales that high in ap, idk why its a possibly on his page.
