The KCM Minato upgrade y'all knew was coming

[Damage3245]

Chakra arms > FCRF > Juubidamas

Just to address this part, I don't think that Juubito's chakra arms necessarily scale above the earlier Biju Bomb that failed to break through the barrier.

When Juubito breaks the barrier, Killer B questions if Juubito is stronger than when it was just the Juubi and Eight-Tails provides the explanation that before it was just throwing power around whereas now it is focusing it.

This makes sense as the single Biju Bomb that detonated inside the barrier earlier essentially had less than a quarter of its power directed at each of the four walls of the Four Crimson Ray Formation (since part of the omnidirectional explosion will be aimed upwards and downwards and not contribute to the majority of the force which is going outward to the four walls). Whereas each of Juubito's four chakra arms are focused specifically on a tiny part of the barrier; drawing it inwards and forcing it to collapse. It's like the difference between a bullet and a shockwave; an explosive shockwave may have more energy overall but its spread over a much wider area compared to the bullet which is focused on a surface area the size of the tip of the bullet.

So just because Juubito was able to collapse the barrier with his chakra arms doesn't mean the raw power of the chakra arms surpasses the earlier Biju Bomb explosion; so we shouldn't treat Minato slapping away one of these arms as being comparable to the entire AP of the Biju Bomb explosion.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Tsk. Shouldn't have made that promise.

You never go back on your word cause that's your scaledo, your scaling way

This is all well and good, but there's a very important thing you're forgetting. Kurama Mode just does not work like that.

You see Bijuu Mode is not really 'Jinchuriki + Bijuu' or 'Jinchuriki's base amped by Bijuu chakra added on top of it'.

It's more like 'Jinchuriki replacing their chakra with that of the Bijuu's'. The Jinchuriki shelves their own chakra away, and transform into their Bijuu in a pseudo-literal sense. Their chakra gets replaced with that of the Bijuu's. This mechanic has been set up fairly early on in the series, since we always knew they were two separate chakra pools that Jinchuriki can tap into. They've just been repeatedly hammered home as separate.

Yeah nah KCM isn't the same as Kurama Mode. With KCM he hasn't truly mastered Kurama and they're separate, whereas their chakra is merged in Kurama Mode. The databook refers to it as Naruto and Kurama's power.
九喇嘛とナルトが心を通わせ、全力を解放した、“九尾チャクラモード"の完成型!
This is the perfect version of the "Kyuubi Chakra Mode," in which Kurama and Naruto communicate with each other and unleash their full power!

Also Naruto using BSM, which by your argument would be Kurama's chakra on its own plus Sage Mode, beat Toneri, and I don't think Toneri being like 2x stronger than WA BSM Naruto is particularly consistent.

Won't get into Ten Tails Jinchuriki (or even pseudo Ten Tails Jinchuriki) because they're kinda different and have different mechanics. But basic Bijuu Mode works like I mentioned above. So yes, them having the same amount of chakra means they would be equal, provided they have a similar level of control over that chakra of course.

First of all, you're a goofball.
This is obviously wasn't added as an anti-feat for Minato. It was literally there as a feat for Minato...
I have no idea how you can read that and come to the conclusion that it was written as an anti-feat.

I didn't think it was, was just saying as an aside

With that being said, it's not really compelling support for Minato being superior to KM Naruto. For that to be the case, Naruto would need to have zero Kurama chakra left for that comparison to be possible, but we know he didn't have zero chakra. It just wasn't enough to enter perfect KM given how drained he was then due to many reasons.

Yeah but like Naruto was low enough on chakra that he couldn't even properly maintain KCM1 which both inverse and especially via the wiki stats is vastly weaker than KCM2 (tens of thousands of times by my calculations), so compared to FP KCM2 Naruto he pretty much had no Kurama chakra left.

So it's less of a 'Minato gave an out of chakra Naruto a handout and it made him stronger than he was with his own chakra' situation, and more of a 'Minato's Kurama chakra in addition to some of Naruto's Kurama chakra made the cloaks stronger than ever because there was simply more Kurama chakra than ever before'.

More like Minato's Kurama chakra + inconsequential amount of Naruto's Kurama chakra made the cloaks significantly stronger than ever

Again, you're completely misinterpreting what that justification is saying.

It is referring to the Rasengan, obviously, because the Rasengan is the thing that performed the feat in question. Basically, what the justification is saying is that both of them pooled in their combined chakra to create that Rasengan, but then Naruto added Senjutsu chakra to it, enhancing it beyond what it would normally be (98 + 98 = 196 Teratons) and making it match Juubito (200 TT) to an extent. So that's why it's not very good support for Minato being equal to KSM Naruto or above KM Naruto.

But I think the wording should be improved to make it abundantly clear that it's talking about the Rasengan, even though that should have been obvious already.

Yeah Arc elaborated on that earlier but that wasn't my main basis for KCM Minato~BSM Naruto anyways. Although it is true that 198 TT shouldn't be enough to destroy Juubito's chakra arms and TSO shield combined considering his base stats are 200 TT, so that should at least give Minato 100 TT with the Massive Rasengan and Bijuudama by extension

I mean, it's not like Minato having KCM or not would improve his chakra control lmao. Minato's still the same as he was. And the narrative implication is clearly that Naruto just has a better grasp and control over that chakra. At best you could say it's not a point against Minato, but it definitely can't be one for him either. Either way, it's minor support that doesn't mean much on its own, especially because we're not using it to say 'Naruto > Minato' or anything.

That's not my point though. I'm saying chakra transfer =/= holistic chakra control skill. And it's pretty clear that's not the implication considering this isn't even something Minato could do at this point as he died before he could ever make use of Kurama's power as a jinchuriki.

I don't think it's a point toward Minato, I'm just saying it's weak evidence to hold him back.

Uh, yeah.......that's because it's literally the same attack lmao...
As I went over before, they pooled their chakra into the Rasengan and then Naruto enhanced it with Senjutsu, but they obviously attacked in tandem since it's.....the same attack.

But the pushing of the attack into Juubito's chakra arms is portrayed as being with comparable force. Particularly around the hands.

No, actually, he's exactly 100 TT, since he's rated as half of Juubito (who's 200 TT) due to Juubito casually matching both Naruto and Sasuke simultaneously.
Of course, he could've gotten to a 100 TT via upscaling as well, but it's one of those situations where both upscaling and concrete scaling coincide perfectly. Both would lead to a 100 TT.

And why is Juubito exactly 200 TT? He's just unquantifiably above Unstable Juubito/Edo Hashirama. And it's really not perfect. 2x is one thing (the thing I argued about in a previous thread), but Sage Mode being less than a 2% boost is just irreconcilable with its feats and portrayal. It doesn't even mechanically make sense when it involves increasing your chakra level by 50% with energy that's probably more potent than regular energy.

So, yeah, I think given that the difference between 100 and 98 is very minute, all of the things you brought up here would still work with Minato being 98 and Naruto being a 100 TT.

Unless you're suggesting that Minato scales to Juubito (as a clone, and without his Avatar mind you) and should have 196 TT dura, I'm not sure how this helps in any way.

I think that it's at least a downscaling feat, along the lines of Kakashi downscaling to 7-B+ from Kisame's 7-A or Deidara's durability downscaling to baseline 7-A from taking Hebi Sasuke's mid 7-A punch with damage. I certainly don't think it should just be ignored.

I will say this is a feat I kinda completely overlooked tbh. Don't have much to say, I just think it's sorta legit. At a minimum, the chakra arms should upscale 100 TT because: Chakra arms > FCRF > Juubidamas = 98 TT. So, yeah. This is the one thing I agree with, I guess.

Nice

In conclusion, I didn't find the debunks very convincing at all. The feats used for support either don't work for me, or are simply reconcilable with Minato being 98 TT. The exception to this being the chakra arm feat, which is why I might be open to a 'Possibly/Likely High 6-B' rating for Minato.

I do like not full rejections

Sorry for the delay on this, btw. I was swamped, and I still am tbf. I probably won't be available to argue a whole lot here, but I feel like I did a good job of conveying my thoughts in any case, so that shouldn't be necessary. I suggest pinging a bunch of staff and getting this concluded.

I shall try. Also I think the fact that there have been so many (8-12) agreements is something worth taking into account

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Neutral for now, may change later.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Just to address this part, I don't think that Juubito's chakra arms necessarily scale above the earlier Biju Bomb that failed to break through the barrier.

When Juubito breaks the barrier, Killer B questions if Juubito is stronger than when it was just the Juubi and Eight-Tails provides the explanation that before it was just throwing power around whereas now it is focusing it.

I think this is more about chakra control than anything considering Juubito while pretty mindless, is still able to do more advanced stuff than the Juubi. It'd be very logical that this focusing of power would include being able to concentrate the scattered power of a Juubidama into compact chakra arms. There's also the fact of Juubito crushing Hashirama's Deity Gates with those chakra arms

This makes sense as the single Biju Bomb that detonated inside the barrier earlier essentially had less than a quarter of its power directed at each of the four walls of the Four Crimson Ray Formation (since part of the omnidirectional explosion will be aimed upwards and downwards and not contribute to the majority of the force which is going outward to the four walls). Whereas each of Juubito's four chakra arms are focused specifically on a tiny part of the barrier; drawing it inwards and forcing it to collapse. It's like the difference between a bullet and a shockwave; an explosive shockwave may have more energy overall but its spread over a much wider area compared to the bullet which is focused on a surface area the size of the tip of the bullet.

So just because Juubito was able to collapse the barrier with his chakra arms doesn't mean the raw power of the chakra arms surpasses the earlier Biju Bomb explosion; so we shouldn't treat Minato slapping away one of these arms as being comparable to the entire AP of the Biju Bomb explosion.

I mean besides scaling to the Deity Gates and FCRF, Juubito himself is just 200 Teratons.

 

[Damage3245]

I think this is more about chakra control than anything considering Juubito while pretty mindless, is still able to do more advanced stuff than the Juubi. It'd be very logical that this focusing of power would include being able to concentrate the scattered power of a Juubidama into compact chakra arms.

Focusing his power doesn't necessarily mean focusing the power of the Biju Bombs into his chakra arms though, is my point.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

I mean you're right it's not specifically the power of his Bijuudamas, it's his power holistically. If he can focus power better than he could before he can generate more power than with the Juubi's Bijuudamas

 

[LordTracer]

legit. At a minimum, the chakra arms should upscale 100 TT because: Chakra arms > FCRF > Juubidamas = 98 TT. So, yeah. This is the one thing I agree with, I guess.

Slayer FRA.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Slayer FRA.

Do you mean specifically to that part or the possibly/likely rating?

 

[LordTracer]

Do you mean specifically to that part or the possibly/likely rating?

To be completely honest, I don’t really care that much. I don’t think the feat is exactly irreconcilable with Minato’s current rating, but I’m not vehemently opposed to a ‘possibly High 6-B‘ rating (although, 98 TT, possibly 100 TT is like… splitting hairs to the highest degree)

 

[MinatoSparkle]

(That's why I proposed the full 100 TT rating)

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

To be completely honest, I don’t really care that much. I don’t think the feat is exactly irreconcilable with Minato’s current rating, but I’m not vehemently opposed to a ‘possibly High 6-B‘ rating (although, 98 TT, possibly 100 TT is like… splitting hairs to the highest degree)

Seems like a reasonable compromise.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Ok seems like possibly High 6-B is the staff consensus I shall update the OP to reflect the changes in time

 

[MinatoSparkle]

What should I do about this statement? Slayer didn't seem to think it was too important.

 

[MeidoIzayoi]

What should I do about this statement? Slayer didn't seem to think it was too important.

energy manipulation + poison manipulation for Naruto ig?
considering Kurama is listed on his profile to have poison manipulation for his poisonous chakra

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Uh I'm talking about in relation to Minato's justification

 

[MeidoIzayoi]

not too important as slayer said ig

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Bump, I've made some changes to OP (didn't change speed cause Slayer said that KCM Minato would definitely be rated as ~BSM Naruto in speed even if not AP a while ago)

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Oh btw I just remembered something about Juubito's chakra arms' scaling. After using those and nothing else, Hashirama said Juubito was stronger than him, meaning the chakra arms are above 196 TT.

 

[Damage3245]

Oh btw I just remembered something about Juubito's chakra arms' scaling. After using those and nothing else, Hashirama said Juubito was stronger than him, meaning the chakra arms are above 196 TT.

That produces some circular scaling if you're arguing:

Hasirama's Wood Release < Juubito's Chakra Arms ~ 50% Kurama <---2x--- 100% Kurama ~ Hasirama's Wood Release

 

[MinatoSparkle]

That produces some circular scaling if you're arguing:

Hasirama's Wood Release < Juubito's Chakra Arms ~ 50% Kurama <---2x--- 100% Kurama ~ Hasirama's Wood Release

I think it's more like Hashirama's Mokuton<Juubito's Chakra Arms>(but not far above) KCM Minato>50% Kurama

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

It's unrelated to the topic, but I have a suggestion about Minato. On the cover of Manga 238, there is the phrase "Unrivalled strength" for Minato. I think it can be added to the Ap description on his profile.

 

[Damage3245]

It's unrelated to the topic, but I have a suggestion about Minato. On the cover of Manga 238, there is the phrase "Unrivalled strength" for Minato. I think it can be added to the Ap description on his profile.

That isn't in the volumes. We don't add in editor notes such as that.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

One of the greatest tragedies

 

[Padaruyos]

That statement would just mean Minato's stronger than old Hiruzen, Orochimaru, Tsunade, Jiraiya, and some others, which is already true.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

That statement would just mean Minato's stronger than old Hiruzen, Orochimaru, Tsunade, Jiraiya, and some others, which is already true.

Itachi and Kisame

 

[MinatoSparkle]

So...do staff have thoughts on the updated proposal?

Attack Potency: At least Country level+ with Kurama Mode (Should be comparable in strength to Kurama Mode Naruto, as he has the other half of Kurama’s power.[46] Additionally, he should only be as strong as BM Naruto, since Naruto is confirmed to have better control over Kurama's chakra[49][50][Note 3]), possibly Large Country level (Fought in tandem with Kurama Sage Mode Naruto to repel and destroy Juubito's Chakra Arms, as well as crack his TSO shield, and was called a powerful support to Naruto[48]. When he lent some of his chakra to Naruto, the Kyuubi cloaks were noted to be bigger and stronger than ever before despite Naruto needing chakra from Minato to even enter Kurama Mode[47]. However, it's unclear how much of Kurama's power Naruto had at this point)

Speed: At least Sub-Relativistic...far higher with Kurama Mode (Fought in tandem with Kurama Sage Mode Naruto and countered Juubito's Chakra Arms. He and his clone reacted to Unstable Juubito's kicks)

Lifting Strength: At least Class G (Should be comparable to Kurama Mode Naruto), possibly higher (Might be comparable to Kurama Sage Mode Naruto)

Striking Strength: At least Country level+ with Kurama Mode (Should be comparable to Kurama Mode Naruto), possibly Large Country level (Might be comparable to Kurama Sage Mode Naruto and repelled Juubito's Chakra Arms)

Durability: At least Country level+, possibly Large Country level with Kurama Mode (Comparable to his striking strength. Tanked the explosion caused by his and Kurama Sage Mode Naruto's combined Rasengan. He and his clone withstood Unstable Juubito's kicks)

 

[Damage3245]

I disagree with "possibly Large Country level" for Minato for the reasons I outlined earlier.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

@UchihaSlayer96 @LordTracer @DarkDragonMedeus

So...do staff have thoughts on the updated proposal?

 

[LordTracer]

@UchihaSlayer96 @LordTracer @DarkDragonMedeus

You know normal users can’t ping, right?

So...do staff have thoughts on the updated proposal?

My thoughts are the same as before. I’m not necessarily against the possibly rating, but I also think the new feats can work just fine with his current rating. Plus, with so small of a difference between it and the proposed possibly rating, I don’t see much of a reason to bother changing it.

Basically, I really don’t care, I think the current rating is fine but I’m not gonna oppose the possibly rating if that’s what the other staff prefer.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

You know normal users can’t ping, right?

Yes I'm a fraud

My thoughts are the same as before. I’m not necessarily against the possibly rating, but I also think the new feats can work just fine with his current rating. Plus, with so small of a difference between it and the proposed possibly rating, I don’t see much of a reason to bother changing it.

Basically, I really don’t care, I think the current rating is fine but I’m not gonna oppose the possibly rating if that’s what the other staff prefer.

Ite

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Hm I just had an idea that fixes the reduncancy issue but it might be a little bold. Considering the chakra arms being 196 TT+, maybe BSM Naruto, KCM Minato, and Senjutsu/Perfect Susanoo Sasuke should scale to 196 TT, just to a lesser degree than Hashirama and Madara since there are statements for them >Naruto and Sasuke. This would upscale Stable Juubito to 393 TT. This is also in line with Minato's clone tanking an attack from a 196 TT character.

 

[Damage3245]

You'd end up scaling 50% of Kurama to being on par with 100% of Kurama.

And just because Juubito is currently a "196 Teraton" character doesn't mean that every single action and attack of his is that strong; especially just random kicks of his.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

You'd end up scaling 50% of Kurama to being on par with 100% of Kurama.

The fact that they have the same amount of chakra amping them does not mean they're comparable amps linearly. Chakra volume isn't the only factor in strength, manipulation matters too, and as we see with the Juubi, you can be more than the sum of your parts, and this power of chakra combination applies to even a mindless monster, letalone someone with high intelligence and chakra control like Minato. An obvious example from around this point in the story is Sasuke. Both his Senjutsu Susanoo and Perfect Susanoo are comparable to BSM Naruto, with the only difference other than stage being that Jugo amped Sasuke in the former situation. Obviously Jugo's power is a literal speck to BSM Naruto, so if the mix didn't provide a Susanoo greater than the sum of its parts, the Perfect Susanoo would logically be much stronger than SEMS Sasuke and thus BSM Naruto, but it's not presented as such.

There's also evidence that KCM specifically is a nonlinear boost as it's a significant amp for even Six Paths Naruto, allowing him to fight 2E Juubidara when he previously couldn't overwhelm injured Pre-God Tree Juubidara physically, a difference vastly greater than what would be provided by 50% Kurama's base power plus a little chakra from the other Bijuu.

The whole point of this thread is KCM Minato being above 50% Kurama on his own.

And just because Juubito is currently a "196 Teraton" character doesn't mean that every single action and attack of his is that strong; especially just random kicks of his.

Sure (although tbf his striking strength is currently 196 TT), just saying it serves as support for the notion

 

[Golden_Void]

bump

 

[MinatoSparkle]

It's the MinatoSparkle curse.

 

[Golden_Void]

It's the MinatoSparkle curse.

Maybe if you upgrade your pfp to KCM

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Maybe if you upgrade your pfp to KCM

Maybe if the thread goes through some time in the next month

 

[MinatoSparkle]

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Oh brother I even got pseudo staff agrees already why is this so difficile

 

[MinatoSparkle]

.

.

So...do staff have thoughts on the updated proposal?

Birthday bump