Naruto: Minato Downgrade

[Shadyboi0]

Base Minato is nowhere near KCm2's Rival what

i think he means speed. i think?

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

@Shadow_Somnius But Goksparkle is correct about Minato>Orochimaru

Orochimaru stated that if Hiruzen was just ten years younger he would have whooped his ass , and a Jonin Minato whooped an even younger Hiruzen.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

Minato did outspeed Obito twice after using Flying Raijin to counter Kamui. He can't just blitz him normally because of Kamui's incredibly fast activation speed.

Six Paths Madara couldn't even blitz Kamui's activation speed for its intangibility.

Also Kakashi, Lee, and Minato reacting to Juubidara isn't one interaction, it's practically every interaction they have with him before Naruto and Sasuke come back.

• Sixth Gate Lee can grab Guy and move him out of the way the second before he gets hit by TSOs
• Both Kakashi and Lee can throw Kunai at relative speeds to Madara's TSO on two separate occasions.
• Obito with Kakashi's help makes his Kamui 2x as fast and can completely avoid Madara's TSO.
• Minato could again react and move before the TSO hit Guy and teleports away can before their effects even damage him.
• Obito could activate Kamui to protect himself before Juubidara could even touch him in extremely close proximity.

we'd have to assume an entire stretch of chapters are outliers if we're discrediting all of these.

.

tbf you can just counter this by saying Madara's TSB are prob not that fast, if it can get tagged by people demonstratively slower than him.
which prob makes sense given that shooting your balls is mostly a travel speed feat.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

i think he means speed. i think?

okay that makes more sense
but even then not sure if thats really true, a pre sage mode stack KCM2 naruto was keeping with a KCM2 Minato, which would either imply two things.

1. The Speed amp between KCM 1>KCM 2 >KCSM isnt that big (which makes the original point useless )
2. Minato is not an equal to KCM 2 Naruto in Base. (at least without Flying Raijin)

The more solid interpretation is that KCM Naruto >=< Base Minato and KCM2 Minato = KCM2 Naruto

 

[Godernet]

tbf you can just counter this by saying Madara's TSB are prob not that fast, if it can get tagged by people demonstratively slower than him.
which prob makes sense given that shooting your balls is mostly a travel speed feat.

We're never given that impression from any other character though. Naruto's orbs moved at relative speeds to himself and his other abilities, and so did Obito's and Toneri's.

 

[Shadow_Somnius]

@Shadow_Somnius But Goksparkle is correct about Minato>Orochimaru

Orochimaru stated that if Hiruzen was just ten years younger he would have whooped his ass , and a Jonin Minato whooped an even younger Hiruzen.

I agree. I was just challenging it for the sake of it. If such a statement exists, I won't contend that. I have made my argument with full agreement to that.

 

[Shadyboi0]

The more solid interpretation is that KCM Naruto >=< Base Minato and KCM2 Minato = KCM2 Naruto

I agree with this

 

[GTsek]

Thank you for your hardwork! That was truly enlightening. Would you mind if I add you to agree?

Yes, you can add me on agree. I've always agreed with the downgrade itself, but I didn't think there were enough arguments in the OP, However, the course of the discussion brought more arguments.

 

[GTsek]

My interpretation of the scale itself is that Minato Base doesn't have solid feats that would make it scale to KCM Naruto or Ay with lvl2 armor. The most solid statement is that he is comparable to Ay with lvl1 armor. So, Minato base only scales to Ay lvl 1 armor, and with KCM he scales for Naruto KCM2.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

It's not, because the series only gives us 1 minato to work with, the series doesnt tell us that hokage is a power amp lol

Wdym "1 Minato?" As in one form? Cause I mean, technically not true (SM/KCM) but there doesn't need to be a difference in form. We don't grant Hanzo a rating above the Sannin because he defeated them in the past. Why is there a difference here? Less of a time difference? Because years is still a pretty significant difference when you're talking about someone in their early 20s.

False equivalence, we actively see Naruto grow in power, his feats arnt entirely based on off screen assumptions

And we also see Minato has better feats and statement in reference to his Hokage counterpart, so the same logic applies, it's just not as obvious at first glance cause we're not following the whole story from Minato's perspective.

Spoiler: Essay part 2

All this means is that in AP, Minato is superior. You don't need to surpass one in all stats to surpass them overall. This also talks of IA Naruto who would eventually go on to master Rasenshuriken on top of using it with SM. So, it doesn't prove much except for the fact that a far weaker Naruto is relative in AP to Minato? Are you trying to debunk yourself?

I thought you were talking about AP with this, because I recall you agreeing in the past that Minato is faster than SM Naruto. And yes, SM Naruto's Rasenshuriken is stronger than Minato, I'm just talking about Minato being above SM Naruto's normal attacks, considering Fukasaku didn't know about the RS and thus wasn't talking about that.

Furthermore, this could be easily talking of SM Minato's AP as well. Nothing implies it is strictly limited to his base.

Considering he doesn't use SM in regular combat, that's quite unlikely. Rivalling the amount of power that Minato actually uses in battles makes more sense. VSBW rates the other Sannin as relative to Base Jiraiya, not SM Jiraiya despite him having SM when the statements about Sannin relativity were made. While I think that's contentious, it's much less so in Minato's case who's never shown using SM while alive.

Those statements are hyperbolic at best. I can show you a plethora of similar statements for many characters from the same book. Besides, it simply states that no one can withstand it. 'Withstand' means to be undamaged by or to resist. It simply means Tendo won't get away unscathed from Minato's Rasengan (or a superior tech) however it doesn't mean it's anywhere close enough to bring him down.

You can show those if you want, and what makes them invalid? And even if your interpretation is correct, that's still pretty insane considering Tendo took a 6T Naruto Bijuudama with just some mild burns.

"The most powerful" is the most obvious case of hyperbole, especially since its one of the darkened statements. Please.

How is it hyperbolic? How would you want it to be phrased to not be hyperbolic? And that's not the same as the flavor text like things at the top of the page, it's just the header for a subsection. Something being bold doesn't automatically makes it invalid.

Are you genuinely being serious or are you just playing lol? The scans are during IA ie. Prior to SM. The third Databook also came prior to SM.

That's not my point did you read what I said? What I'm saying is that it means Minato is superior to anyone else around at the time, which includes people like OM Obito and Pain, who are in turn superior to PA SM Naruto. Also you could argue it includes the Raikage since he had been mentioned, even if he hadn't been shown.

"There were no shinobi who surpassed that man." You got to be kidding.

It's in past tense because it's about someone who lived in the past. Madara said that Hashirama "was" the ultimate shinobi, but that's not implication for him being surpassed, just that he's not alive anymore so he's not using present tense.

Besides this is blatantly hyperbolic and meant to hype Minato since A4 is knowledgeable both on Madara and Hashirama who are far stronger than him.

Stop calling everything involving high praise hyperbolic You need justification for that, you can't just say it's hyperbolic and leave it at that. And why is he knowledgeable on Hashirama and Madara? They died before he was even born (at least Hashirama did, Madara was alive but was ya know hidden).

Furthermore, A4 has never fought SM Naruto neither is he aware of KCM Naruto's full power - 13 clones who can comfortably hurl FRSs at their target.

I'm not using this statement in reference to Naruto, I'm using it to scale Minato above the 3rd and 4th Raikage, who scale above PA SM Naruto.

In addition to this, the Viz doesn't have him imply that its power he's talking about. His power is a different topic from what he initially started with. He brings up the noble and finer part to show how great a shinobi he was, then Jiraya to back him up, calling him a savior and whatnot, and then brings up his power to essentially say that Minato was mistaken. Finer can simply mean greater or better not necessarily in power. No different from Hashirama's Itachi's greater.

Saying "Even with all his power" was a summary of his descriptions of Minato. He's saying he's faster than him, the best shinobi ever, and the savior, yet still died with all his power. Besides, for Ay to think he's the finest shinobi ever he should be stronger than him anyways, cause power is his main criteria for the quality of a shinobi (I'm getting some serious flashbacks...).

Him just thinking Minato is the greatest shinobi ever because he's wise or nice makes no sense both in general and in respect to Ay's philosophy.

I do not necessarily conform to fan translations (You have no idea how many times I have been bamboozled by that). But I did try to use DeepL to translate it myself and the implications are vague at best.

てあ手合わせは幾度としたものだいくどアレに勝る忍はいないとまで思わされる男だった

I have had many encounters with him, but he was a man who made it seem like there was no one who could match him.

DeepL seems to suggest that it is a subjective opinion than an objective truth which means that it may not necessarily be accurate.

Of course it's his opinion, it's not like he's God. But if he believes it, that means Minato>Everyone he knows the strength of, which would include FKS Sasuke btw, who's obviously >>Taka Sasuke, having the Skeletal Susanoo and Inferno Style Flame Control on top of his hatred amping his stats.

Going by your line of reasoning here, Naruto doesn't know of Minato's capabilities, him not surpassing Minato could be his own opinion which may not necessarily true..

Sure, that was a side point, but it's narrative support at least.

Besides, that's nowhere near enough evidence as he could simply be thinking of the words from his beloved teachers and father since what invoked that memory was finding the answers not surpassing Minato.

Of course it's not enough evidence on its own, that's why I used it in conjunction with several pieces of evidence pointing to Minato>SM Naruto. And he could've thought of many things, why specifically a goal he's already reached?

Btw, another thing I forgot to mention. The Hokage is selected as the strongest in the village, thus Minato is stronger than Kushina, who Naruto said he wants to become more powerful than (not to mention the fact that Naruto in that same speech said he wanted to surpass all other Hokage, meaning he thinks he hasn't, and he only knows Old Hiruzen/Minato/Tsunade, and has definitively surpassed Old Hiruzen/Tsunade at this point, which pretty heavily implies Minato>WA SM Naruto/eKCM Naruto, unless you think he's just assuming Hashirama and Tobirama's strength).

You cannot definitively deny he never saw Minato in action either. Again, Cee stated that with full confidence if he was really lacking in knowledge and the author intended for him to not be knowledgeable, he wouldn't have said something like that. I give weight to Cee's statement because he was explicit in his words. If he had something like A4's the fastest shinobi ever or that no one is comparable to him, I wouldn't be making this argument. Your databook itself supports my position as it clearly calls him an intellectual person making the best use of his brain. So, he isn't talking out of his ass, that we can be sure.

So you find the idea that he was fighting in the war at 7-8 years old more likely than him just hearing stories? Really?

It's not even like he's saying this, it's just a thought he had in his head. Sure he probably got that idea from somewhere, but where? It doesn't have to be from witnessing it firsthand, and if it's not, it's just secondhand testimony. We both don't know where Cee got his knowledge from and have evidence pointing to the idea that he was too young to fight Minato firsthand. It's really suspect at best.

Nerve transmission directly relates to the speed as impulses are transmitted through the motor neurons which lead to the neuro-muscular junction and thus muscle contraction which results in movement. Your nerve transmission is a primary component of movement. Fast nerve transmission = Fast movement. I had explained this previously as well. There's no way around this. We simply lack knowledge of both their body physiology to determine if Minato gains some advantage due to his biology. If anything, A4 who has greater muscle mass would have more of a reason to assume his body is faster.

They're related, but they're not one and the same. That's like saying Ay is stronger than Tsunade because he has bigger muscles. Muscles are correlated to strength, but they're far from the only component.

The statement being of the past is a valid explanation.

It's a very uncharitable interpretation. Why would he bring Minato up in reference to his current speed if he's far surpassed him? It's not like he was using Minato as a benchmark to boast, like "I'm the fastest shinobi, now that the Fourth Hokage's dead and I've trained to surpass even him." He's praising Minato's speed because he wouldn't be the fastest if he was still around.

Again, the statement is not true in a full sense.

You'd also have to prove A4 has fought all out with A3 and is fully aware of his capabilities. Mind you, applying your logic here, A3 died after continuously fighting 10000 shinobi for 72 hours. This is more than enough for A3 to get amped in his last moments.

Bruh. your whole CRT is based on 3 statements from characters with unknown knowledge, and now you're gonna argue that 3A's SON who he fought Gyuki with multiple times doesn't know his ability? Come on, be consistent.

If he did get significantly stronger, you'd think Dodai would've said something, but he just commented on his speed like it was the expected performance from him.

Not to mention the fact that his battles with Gyuki were before that, and the Bijuu are rated as KCM Naruto level (or Sub-Relativistic). And your arguments with Cee/Bee rely on the idea that Minato fighting since the last time they saw him isn't enough for him to get stronger, so again, your arguments aren't logically consistent with each other. Either those 2 points are invalidated or the 3rd Raikage didn't get particularly stronger if at all (although he didn't anyways cause of the lack of commenting from someone who knew his strength). Also do you fr think Base Ay is faster than the 3rd Raikage who Minato's faster than?

Proof that A4 was going all out on his speed? I doubt he'd want to leave Tsunade behind. Besides, one could argue Tsunade has grown faster since the time the other Saanin were alive.

Why would he hold back when attacking Muu? And no, she didn't. Jiraiya died in the Pain Arc, in which she didn't do any fighting, just healing, and then she was in a coma until the WA, when she didn't have time to train and went to war planning immediately after restoring her chakra via food, shortly after which the war started.

That was an A4 who was unaware of Naruto's capability, you and I both know that.

? No, he asked for help after seeing KCM Naruto for a while.

And Tsunade thought she could hold Ay off after the whole battle where she saw him using LCM.

This could easily mean FTG lol.

They had literally just ran to the battlefield, and Hiruzen's talking about speed. Teleportation is clearly referring to Shunshin here. Even if you do think it's about teleportation, that'd just mean Minato was throwing kunai forward and teleporting to it, rinse and repeat faster than Tobirama which equates to faster combat speed, which doesn't help you XD

We have not been given any reason to assume those characters are unreliable. Again, this is a direct statement, I am not using any tangent here. So, we have no reason to doubt them.

We do. Because the databook which has more knowledge than them claims that Ay needs lightning chakra to match Minato's speed, and there are clear scales for Minato>Taka Sasuke/PA SM Naruto.

Yes, I have already said this in our previous debate. Reinterpret the Databook, not the manga. You are taking Databook statements as direct as possible while twisting and outright dismissing manga statements. That's not acceptable. The Databook statement can be easily re-interpreted to mean that V1 A4's speed is comparable to Hokage Minato's Shunshin.

Ok, so V1 Ay is blitzing SM Hashirama, cool. Anyways, The Yellow Flash is Jonin Minato's title so no. The interpretation that fits both the manga and databook is that Jonin Minato's normal speed is V1 Ay level, because the databook compares him to Ay, and he's compared to KCM Naruto in the manga, who was matched by V1 Ay without Shunshin, while his Shunshin is comparable to KCM Naruto's again cause of 2 direct comparisons. The databook statement being about Shunshin doesn't make the most sense cause Shunshin is a very temporary speed amp, a technique. It's not his speed speed. If there was for example a databook statement about Vegeta being far stronger than Saiyan Saga Goku, that's about Base Goku, cause Kaioken isn't his general strength. But Naruto using Shunshin being compared to Minato's usage of it? Now that's reasonable. Also cause Ay specifically says that Minato outran his fastest punch, meaning he used footspeed, not FTG (not to mention the fact that he calls Naruto the savior after this, which was what he thought of Minato as, pretty clear comparison).

This resolves everything and my interpretation unlike yours doesn't declare C unreliable or make imaginary caveats to Fukasaku's statement. My interpretation would be the most straightforward and logically sound. Occum's razor.

Is the idea of "The fool really is...just like The Yellow Flash!!" being a speed comparison not straightforward and logically sound as well?

You'd have to prove that there's any quantifiable difference at least there's no evidence of Minato getting drastically stronger. The safest bet would be to argue that he remained the same unless you can quantify the difference between the two since there is no direct statement or feats to ant relevant shinobi to scale off of.

I did. A majority of my first comment was spent showing through scaling that Hokage Minato was significantly stronger than what you're saying.

Besides, all of Bee's statements was in reference to how Naruto was so alike to the Yellow flash now.

...Uh, yes?

This statement is from Anko who doesn't even say that the Fourth could decisively bring down Orochimaru. Furthermore, this was made before facing Orochimaru. So, they were unaware of the arsenal of jutsu and powers he had obtained through experimentation.

You've said you agree with Minato>Orochimaru now so I won't counter this.

Once again, going by your logic here Suigetsu could just be wrong or lack knowledge since we see that he's terrified of Orochimaru despite that statement.

Except that in this case we know Suigetsu knew Orochimaru, unlike Cee who barely knows Minato if at all and even if he did he only knew Jonin Minato, and Bee who stopped fighting him midway through the war, and Fukasaku who's just an unknown. And yeah, he's terrified because he thinks Orochimaru is still a threat even if he's weaker than Sasuke.

We could also argue Suigetsu is talking of a far stronger Orochimaru who is known to enhance himself through experimentation.

??? P1 Orochimaru is his peak before the WA. And it's not like he says he beat Orochimaru cause he hadn't buffed himself, he specifically notes the reason to be his arms.

But its baffling. Why are you so hell-bent on proving Orochimaru is stronger than Sasuke? I never contended that to my knowledge. You seem to have misinterpreted Bee's statement. Bee never claims Sasuke > Minato. All he says is that MS Sasuke was such a tough component that he could possibly compare to no.1 or no.2 of the toughest opponents he has fought. This statement can be at best used to cement relativity between the two ie. the gaps between their strength isn't massive which is why Bee felt they were comparable. Orochimaru can easily fit in this gap. So, taking that line of reasoning provides no contradiction to the set of evidence you have posted.

Uhhhh, wdym hell bent? I literally just used one statement in my post, and one other in a different comment.

Yeah, but you argued relativity, which isn't true because Minato>Orochimaru>Taka Sasuke. And no, that wouldn't work because Bee specified that the reason he went Bijuu Mode and got carried away is because Sasuke was one of his strongest opponents, meaning he was referring to 3T Taka Sasuke, which is the state he was in before BM.

Taka Sasuke was physically weaker than he was in his Hebi state.

So it'd be Minato>Younger Hiruzen>Orochimaru>CM2 Hebi Sasuke>>3T Hebi Sasuke>3T Taka Sasuke.

Even if I were to concede that there's a difference between Jonin and Hokage Minato (it was never shown, stated, or implied), it still wouldn't make much difference since Bee has a clear flashback on Hokage Minato with his Rasengan nonetheless which implies he has fought him or at least seen him fight.

It was implied in Generations.

How? Minato became Hokage after the war. At best he saw him in some sort of meeting or pictures, he couldn't have fought him. And he didn't even know what the Rasengan was prior to Naruto explaining it, so he definitely didn't see Minato using that. Also he was literally forbidden from leaving the village so...

Minato being anywhere close to KCM is contradictory to Minato believing mastering that power would allow him to defeat a potentially stronger Obito.

1. He defeated Obito, so Naruto being able to defeat Obito doesn't mean he's way stronger than Minato.
2. You're literally saying potentially yourself. He doesn't even know how much stronger Obito would get if at all, yet he's sure of the fact that Naruto needs more power to beat him and that he's using Pain. Him making these judgements off of YM Obito's strength is more reasonable than him just assuming how strong Obito would become.

Partially true and partially false. The initial statement by Fukasaku was in preponderance to Naruto surpassing Jiraya as a sage as he clearly cites the lack of toad features as reasoning. He said 'might' for he had yet to see SM Naruto do anything. The second statement however had no such reasoning and thus, was in general.

The context is very important as well. In the first statement, Naruto successfully could enter SM without toad oil, help and without frog-like features. So that statement being in relevance to SM makes sense. However, the second statement was made directly after we see Naruto manhandling Asura Path.

Note Gamabunta's statement in the last panel of the second scan. On the next page, Fukasaku affirms and then mentally notes that he has surpassed his predecessors. With this much context elaborated, still arguing that its exclusive to SM is disingenuous.

@Shadowbokunohero and @Deceived3596 , do you believe this is enough contextual evidence?

Meh, I find that whole thing kinda 50/50, but either it's about SM mastery or Fukasaku doesn't know Minato's strength that well or at absolute worst, it's referring to pure AP and not overall ability, cause Minato's way faster than Naruto. Could also argue a moving goalpost thing like with Beerus, but I doubt that considering 10 chapters later we find out YM Obito>SM Naruto.

That's true however Tobirama wouldn't be aware of Minato's peculiar situation. Minato here had the unique opportunity to grow stronger post-death. So this Minato should canonically be stronger. But I don't see the 'alive-counterparts' bit in the scan. For most of the Hokage, their original power just happened to be one just prior to their death, Minato by virtue of being sealed with the Kyuubi had the ability to further that power.

You know they were all sealed by the RDS right? Hashirama, Tobirama, and Hiruzen were all fighting the whole time according to that lore.

Edo Hiruzen's statement is an expression. "...as...as ever." is used to denote normality. For Hiruzen, Minato being fast is not unusual but this doesn't mean he did not grow faster which wouldn't be unusual either since it's Hiruzen who claims the sealed and the sealer are bound to battle for eternity.

As ever means something is like that all the time, so Minato's speed is like that all the time.

But he has a vague idea of Itachi's strength and is well aware of how Orochimaru was too weak to get Itachi. He wouldn't have been confident in going after Itachi if he didn't feel atleast comparable to him which puts him above Orochimaru.

Weren't you just agreeing with me on Orochimaru>Sasuke? And does he really? The only things he's seen from Itachi has been him beating up random Uchiha and Tsukuyomi.

It's illogical. We don't have any precedence to believe there's any difference between Jonin and Hokage. Furthermore, the narrative parallel for KCM 1 is clearly FTG.

The comparisons to different forms is the precedence (and the statements I showed before). You don't need it to be explicitly stated that Minato is stronger as a Hokage. You just need superior scaling. Let's use an example. Say Teen Sasuke beats Kakashi, and Kakashi beats Kid Sasuke. You don't say Teen Sasuke is below Kakashi cause he lost to him at some point. We eliminate the contradiction by using this scale to assert he got stronger. The same applies for lots of situations, including Minato, just not in as simple and direct a fashion as that.

If that was the case, why was the specific word "outrun" used in reference to what Minato did? There is a parallel here, but that doesn't mean Naruto's speed is comparable to FTG. Minato and Ay fought many times, Bee thought Naruto running Ay was like Minato, probably because he did see that another time. Minato used FTG there cause it was more effective, but that doesn't mean his Shunshin is slower than Ay's or that he never used it against him.

Everyone is making comparisons between Naruto and Minato based on how the latter is blitzing perceptions with his speed not unlike Minato's use of FTG which they cannot track. Kakashi mistaking Naruto for Minato was in direct relation to Hirashin as well as he was perception blitzed by Naruto's sudden new speed.

Idk about him being perception blitzed. He had the MS active in that scene, and even 3T Kakashi can keep up with Rinnegan Obito pretty well. He was probably just massively outsped, not perception blitzed, especially since we see him raise his arms when KCM2 Naruto makes his entrance (I know they were raised in the page prior, but not to that level). Why do you think Kishimoto set up the scene so that Kakashi would have his MS activated, allowing him to perceive Naruto's speed more accurately and then having him mistake Naruto as Minato? Seems pretty arbitrary if not to show their relativity.

@GTsek was right, the Databook does imply his speed is thanks to Hirashin. This is the correct scan, yes GT?

It says he "dashes like a thunder" on that page. And it talks about the speed at which he kills enemies, or his combat speed. FTG is certainly part of his speed in combat, but it's not THE thing.

The latter point sort of works against you. He entrusted Naruto the 9-tails hoping he could defeat a stronger Obito with it. Upsetting the Bijuu balance shouldn't be a greater concern than ridding him of himself when a person he believes to be Madara is out there that he, according to you, should be comparable to. However, granting Naruto the Kyuubi was under the belief that it would make Naruto decisively stronger than him and thereby Obito, that would make much more sense.

Wdym according to me It's pretty much a fact that he's at least relative to YM Obito, he literally matched him if not surpasses him in physical speed, and has his own broken space-time ninjutsu. Not to mention the fact that he injured Obito and forced him to flee, pretty much spelling out that he was stronger.

Nah, he actually implied it would be a tough battle for KCM2 Naruto, not a decisive win, as he said Naruto needed extraordinary strength (in this context meaning Nine Tails power) to stand against and hope to have any chance of defeating him.

And if you really wanna take it that route, I'd just argue it's referring to MKCM2 Naruto, who was stated to far surpass Minato and be the power Minato wanted him to have all along, which wouldn't contradict him being relative to KCM or KCM2 Naruto in speed. Heck, even if you say MKCM2 doesn't exist (it does) and it's just all KCM2, that's fine. Minato can be relative to KCM2 in speed but far inferior in AP/Durability especially with the Kurama Avatar, making him inferior overall, and a while ago now still fits cause the statement is made in 617 and he attained KCM2 in 571.

Another interpretation I can provide to Minato's statement is that he felt Obito grew stronger. Pain was such a powerful foe that he was able to force Naruto to go 1-tail short of the full Kyuubi. Since, Minato believed Obito was superior to Pain, he stated that he needed to master the Kyuubi to face this stronger Obito.

But why did he feel like Obito was superior to Pain? He said it himself. Because of Obito's performance against Minato, he wasn't an ordinary shinobi and was probably controlling Pain. He is very blatantly specifying that "back then," Obito had put up a really good fight against Minato, leading Minato to think he's using Pain. Idk how you can get more direct than that without literally saying "The Masked Man was stronger than Pain even 16 years ago."

@Godernet , I apologize but I'll be focusing on Goku alone. I simply don't have the time nor the energy to address every single one of you.

@GokuSparkle , are you by any chance Alan Jia?

I am indeed, how'd you figure? The Minato simping?

That's essentially what I am saying, I think. Base Naruto isn't superior to Minato but the stat amps provided by SM do put him above. When posters generally mention 'as a sage', they talk about Naruto mastering SM to a better extent.

If Base Naruto<Minato, SM Naruto<SM Minato because they both have Perfect Toad SM, the same amp, the only difference being that Minato's lasts shorter. And considering the context, Fukasaku would be referring to SM Minato, sooooo yeah it doesn't really work.

About the translation of Ay's statement,I ask y'all don't trust 100% on translation tools, they can bring a literal result, but they always ignore the context, not only the context of the series but also of the expressions. An example is the phrase: 眉目秀麗 (Bimoku Shurei) literally means "Beautiful eyebrows", because 眉目 (Bimoku) means eyebrows and 秀麗 (Shurei) means beautiful, however, when they are together to formulate a sentence, the meaning changes to if referring to the beauty of the face in general, it is an expression used to call someone beautiful, in particular, referring to the face, so the translation considering the expression and the context (in Minato's case, since it has the expression in one of the texts I sent about him) would be: "A handsome man". And there is also a problem in the interpretation of Ay's statement, he says:

It's not a translation tool, it was translated by a person.

•"手合わせは幾度としたものだアレに勝る忍はいないとまで思わされる男だった"

Translation: "We had many combats, and he was a man who made me think that there is no shinobi better than him"

In this context, the word "combat" is being used in the sense of a fight or competition. The expression "手合わせ" (teawase) in Japanese usually refers to a confrontation, training, or match in board games, martial arts, or sports. In the given sentence, the author is probably referring to a confrontation in some martial art or ninjutsu. So, for those who said that the statement is in the context of physical attributes or something like that, it's actually wrong, the expression is in the comprehensive sense of "confront", not necessarily physical, it could be in reference to a match in a game for example, it's a way of talking about a fight in general, for example: "I fight someone, and in that fight, we use spells on each other for hours, and then we fight a little hand-to-hand combat, and then we use more spells." So, I reduce all of this to the word: "Combat/Clash/Match/confront", because I'm talking about a general confrontation, not specifying whether it's hand-to-hand combat, spell fighting or even a board game/video game. Basically, Ay's statement is just that he's fight with Minato many times, and there's no indication that it's exclusively physical combat and that Minato somehow keeps up with Ay in physical speed. And about the second part, it's also wrong, Ay says that after fight with Minato many times, he himself (Ay) came to think that no one could beat Minato, that there was no one better than him (Minato). He doesn't confirm anything, is just a personal opinion, an impression he had due to the fact that he never defeated Minato. This impression of is the same as Minato had in relation to Obito, he feels that no one would be able to defeating Obito.

All scans are here:

Uhhhhh, you said a lot without really saying a lot. First of all, the game thing is clearly not what he's referring to and you know that. Secondly, it doesn't matter what he specifically meant, the general idea is that he believes Minato unmatched in combat, and for Minato to be unmatched in combat, his stats need to be at least in the ballpark of Ay. If he couldn't even harm him, it wouldn't matter how good any of his other attributes are. If he doesn't have time to do anything before being blitzed other than teleportation, it doesn't matter how skilled he is, he isn't doing anything to Ay.

?? When did Minato say no one can defeat Obito?

tbf you can just counter this by saying Madara's TSB are prob not that fast, if it can get tagged by people demonstratively slower than him.
which prob makes sense given that shooting your balls is mostly a travel speed feat.

TSOs are fast enough that Kakashi and Obito combining their Kamui barely outsped them from a long distance, while Obito on his own outsped Madara's combat speed from a much shorter distance, meaning TSOs>>Madara's regular combat speed.

Not to mention the fact that even being above Kakashi's Kamui alone is pretty insane.

okay that makes more sense
but even then not sure if thats really true, a pre sage mode stack KCM2 naruto was keeping with a KCM2 Minato, which would either imply two things.

Um...

I assume you're talking about the early Juubito fight when he was mentally nerfed, but well, he was mentally nerfed and also that's MKCM Naruto, not KCM2 Naruto. Anyways Minato blitzed him (it's not FTG, you can see the speed lines indicating he came from above, and the sound effect is different from FTG's trademark "FFT").

1. The Speed amp between KCM 1>KCM 2 >KCSM isnt that big (which makes the original point useless )
2. Minato is not an equal to KCM 2 Naruto in Base. (at least without Flying Raijin)

The more solid interpretation is that KCM Naruto >=< Base Minato and KCM2 Minato = KCM2 Naruto

Idk...Base Minato~KCM2 Naruto (at least speedwise) and KCM Minato~BSM Naruto be pretty cool (if ur gonna point out that BSM/KCM = WA SM Naruto, keep in mind that Minato is Edo nerfed and Naruto has more mastery over Kurama than Minato)

 

[MinatoSparkle]

 

[RoyGundam]

Disagree with this thread because feats>statements

Minato is faster than Tobirama, and he intercepts 6 paths Madara's TSOs mid-flight by teleporting to the location, catching the TSOs on his back and teleporting away in a timeframe where mid-attack 8th gate Gai basically appears to be frozen in place

Speed-wise he is the undisputed goat, and for AP, I think he'd be relative to Hiruzen at least (while alive) and KCM2 Naruto in Edo Tensei

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

Wdym "1 Minato?" As in one form? Cause I mean, technically not true (SM/KCM) but there doesn't need to be a difference in form. We don't grant Hanzo a rating above the Sannin because he defeated them in the past. Why is there a difference here? Less of a time difference? Because years is still a pretty significant difference when you're talking about someone in their early 20s.

And we also see Minato has better feats and statement in reference to his Hokage counterpart, so the same logic applies, it's just not as obvious at first glance cause we're not following the whole story from Minato's perspective.

Spoiler: Essay part 2

I thought you were talking about AP with this, because I recall you agreeing in the past that Minato is faster than SM Naruto. And yes, SM Naruto's Rasenshuriken is stronger than Minato, I'm just talking about Minato being above SM Naruto's normal attacks, considering Fukasaku didn't know about the RS and thus wasn't talking about that.

Considering he doesn't use SM in regular combat, that's quite unlikely. Rivalling the amount of power that Minato actually uses in battles makes more sense. VSBW rates the other Sannin as relative to Base Jiraiya, not SM Jiraiya despite him having SM when the statements about Sannin relativity were made. While I think that's contentious, it's much less so in Minato's case who's never shown using SM while alive.

You can show those if you want, and what makes them invalid? And even if your interpretation is correct, that's still pretty insane considering Tendo took a 6T Naruto Bijuudama with just some mild burns.

How is it hyperbolic? How would you want it to be phrased to not be hyperbolic? And that's not the same as the flavor text like things at the top of the page, it's just the header for a subsection. Something being bold doesn't automatically makes it invalid.

That's not my point did you read what I said? What I'm saying is that it means Minato is superior to anyone else around at the time, which includes people like OM Obito and Pain, who are in turn superior to PA SM Naruto. Also you could argue it includes the Raikage since he had been mentioned, even if he hadn't been shown.

It's in past tense because it's about someone who lived in the past. Madara said that Hashirama "was" the ultimate shinobi, but that's not implication for him being surpassed, just that he's not alive anymore so he's not using present tense.

Stop calling everything involving high praise hyperbolic You need justification for that, you can't just say it's hyperbolic and leave it at that. And why is he knowledgeable on Hashirama and Madara? They died before he was even born (at least Hashirama did, Madara was alive but was ya know hidden).

I'm not using this statement in reference to Naruto, I'm using it to scale Minato above the 3rd and 4th Raikage, who scale above PA SM Naruto.

Saying "Even with all his power" was a summary of his descriptions of Minato. He's saying he's faster than him, the best shinobi ever, and the savior, yet still died with all his power. Besides, for Ay to think he's the finest shinobi ever he should be stronger than him anyways, cause power is his main criteria for the quality of a shinobi (I'm getting some serious flashbacks...).

Him just thinking Minato is the greatest shinobi ever because he's wise or nice makes no sense both in general and in respect to Ay's philosophy.

Of course it's his opinion, it's not like he's God. But if he believes it, that means Minato>Everyone he knows the strength of, which would include FKS Sasuke btw, who's obviously >>Taka Sasuke, having the Skeletal Susanoo and Inferno Style Flame Control on top of his hatred amping his stats.

Sure, that was a side point, but it's narrative support at least.

Of course it's not enough evidence on its own, that's why I used it in conjunction with several pieces of evidence pointing to Minato>SM Naruto. And he could've thought of many things, why specifically a goal he's already reached?

Btw, another thing I forgot to mention. The Hokage is selected as the strongest in the village, thus Minato is stronger than Kushina, who Naruto said he wants to become more powerful than (not to mention the fact that Naruto in that same speech said he wanted to surpass all other Hokage, meaning he thinks he hasn't, and he only knows Old Hiruzen/Minato/Tsunade, and has definitively surpassed Old Hiruzen/Tsunade at this point, which pretty heavily implies Minato>WA SM Naruto/eKCM Naruto, unless you think he's just assuming Hashirama and Tobirama's strength).

So you find the idea that he was fighting in the war at 7-8 years old more likely than him just hearing stories? Really?

It's not even like he's saying this, it's just a thought he had in his head. Sure he probably got that idea from somewhere, but where? It doesn't have to be from witnessing it firsthand, and if it's not, it's just secondhand testimony. We both don't know where Cee got his knowledge from and have evidence pointing to the idea that he was too young to fight Minato firsthand. It's really suspect at best.

They're related, but they're not one and the same. That's like saying Ay is stronger than Tsunade because he has bigger muscles. Muscles are correlated to strength, but they're far from the only component.

It's a very uncharitable interpretation. Why would he bring Minato up in reference to his current speed if he's far surpassed him? It's not like he was using Minato as a benchmark to boast, like "I'm the fastest shinobi, now that the Fourth Hokage's dead and I've trained to surpass even him." He's praising Minato's speed because he wouldn't be the fastest if he was still around.

Bruh. your whole CRT is based on 3 statements from characters with unknown knowledge, and now you're gonna argue that 3A's SON who he fought Gyuki with multiple times doesn't know his ability? Come on, be consistent.

If he did get significantly stronger, you'd think Dodai would've said something, but he just commented on his speed like it was the expected performance from him.

Not to mention the fact that his battles with Gyuki were before that, and the Bijuu are rated as KCM Naruto level (or Sub-Relativistic). And your arguments with Cee/Bee rely on the idea that Minato fighting since the last time they saw him isn't enough for him to get stronger, so again, your arguments aren't logically consistent with each other. Either those 2 points are invalidated or the 3rd Raikage didn't get particularly stronger if at all (although he didn't anyways cause of the lack of commenting from someone who knew his strength). Also do you fr think Base Ay is faster than the 3rd Raikage who Minato's faster than?

Why would he hold back when attacking Muu? And no, she didn't. Jiraiya died in the Pain Arc, in which she didn't do any fighting, just healing, and then she was in a coma until the WA, when she didn't have time to train and went to war planning immediately after restoring her chakra via food, shortly after which the war started.

? No, he asked for help after seeing KCM Naruto for a while.

And Tsunade thought she could hold Ay off after the whole battle where she saw him using LCM.

They had literally just ran to the battlefield, and Hiruzen's talking about speed. Teleportation is clearly referring to Shunshin here. Even if you do think it's about teleportation, that'd just mean Minato was throwing kunai forward and teleporting to it, rinse and repeat faster than Tobirama which equates to faster combat speed, which doesn't help you XD

We do. Because the databook which has more knowledge than them claims that Ay needs lightning chakra to match Minato's speed, and there are clear scales for Minato>Taka Sasuke/PA SM Naruto.

Ok, so V1 Ay is blitzing SM Hashirama, cool. Anyways, The Yellow Flash is Jonin Minato's title so no. The interpretation that fits both the manga and databook is that Jonin Minato's normal speed is V1 Ay level, because the databook compares him to Ay, and he's compared to KCM Naruto in the manga, who was matched by V1 Ay without Shunshin, while his Shunshin is comparable to KCM Naruto's again cause of 2 direct comparisons. The databook statement being about Shunshin doesn't make the most sense cause Shunshin is a very temporary speed amp, a technique. It's not his speed speed. If there was for example a databook statement about Vegeta being far stronger than Saiyan Saga Goku, that's about Base Goku, cause Kaioken isn't his general strength. But Naruto using Shunshin being compared to Minato's usage of it? Now that's reasonable. Also cause Ay specifically says that Minato outran his fastest punch, meaning he used footspeed, not FTG (not to mention the fact that he calls Naruto the savior after this, which was what he thought of Minato as, pretty clear comparison).

Is the idea of "The fool really is...just like The Yellow Flash!!" being a speed comparison not straightforward and logically sound as well?

I did. A majority of my first comment was spent showing through scaling that Hokage Minato was significantly stronger than what you're saying.

...Uh, yes?

You've said you agree with Minato>Orochimaru now so I won't counter this.

Except that in this case we know Suigetsu knew Orochimaru, unlike Cee who barely knows Minato if at all and even if he did he only knew Jonin Minato, and Bee who stopped fighting him midway through the war, and Fukasaku who's just an unknown. And yeah, he's terrified because he thinks Orochimaru is still a threat even if he's weaker than Sasuke.

??? P1 Orochimaru is his peak before the WA. And it's not like he says he beat Orochimaru cause he hadn't buffed himself, he specifically notes the reason to be his arms.

Uhhhh, wdym hell bent? I literally just used one statement in my post, and one other in a different comment.

Yeah, but you argued relativity, which isn't true because Minato>Orochimaru>Taka Sasuke. And no, that wouldn't work because Bee specified that the reason he went Bijuu Mode and got carried away is because Sasuke was one of his strongest opponents, meaning he was referring to 3T Taka Sasuke, which is the state he was in before BM.

Taka Sasuke was physically weaker than he was in his Hebi state.

So it'd be Minato>Younger Hiruzen>Orochimaru>CM2 Hebi Sasuke>>3T Hebi Sasuke>3T Taka Sasuke.

It was implied in Generations.

How? Minato became Hokage after the war. At best he saw him in some sort of meeting or pictures, he couldn't have fought him. And he didn't even know what the Rasengan was prior to Naruto explaining it, so he definitely didn't see Minato using that. Also he was literally forbidden from leaving the village so...

1. He defeated Obito, so Naruto being able to defeat Obito doesn't mean he's way stronger than Minato.
2. You're literally saying potentially yourself. He doesn't even know how much stronger Obito would get if at all, yet he's sure of the fact that Naruto needs more power to beat him and that he's using Pain. Him making these judgements off of YM Obito's strength is more reasonable than him just assuming how strong Obito would become.

Meh, I find that whole thing kinda 50/50, but either it's about SM mastery or Fukasaku doesn't know Minato's strength that well or at absolute worst, it's referring to pure AP and not overall ability, cause Minato's way faster than Naruto. Could also argue a moving goalpost thing like with Beerus, but I doubt that considering 10 chapters later we find out YM Obito>SM Naruto.

You know they were all sealed by the RDS right? Hashirama, Tobirama, and Hiruzen were all fighting the whole time according to that lore.

As ever means something is like that all the time, so Minato's speed is like that all the time.

Weren't you just agreeing with me on Orochimaru>Sasuke? And does he really? The only things he's seen from Itachi has been him beating up random Uchiha and Tsukuyomi.

The comparisons to different forms is the precedence (and the statements I showed before). You don't need it to be explicitly stated that Minato is stronger as a Hokage. You just need superior scaling. Let's use an example. Say Teen Sasuke beats Kakashi, and Kakashi beats Kid Sasuke. You don't say Teen Sasuke is below Kakashi cause he lost to him at some point. We eliminate the contradiction by using this scale to assert he got stronger. The same applies for lots of situations, including Minato, just not in as simple and direct a fashion as that.

If that was the case, why was the specific word "outrun" used in reference to what Minato did? There is a parallel here, but that doesn't mean Naruto's speed is comparable to FTG. Minato and Ay fought many times, Bee thought Naruto running Ay was like Minato, probably because he did see that another time. Minato used FTG there cause it was more effective, but that doesn't mean his Shunshin is slower than Ay's or that he never used it against him.

Idk about him being perception blitzed. He had the MS active in that scene, and even 3T Kakashi can keep up with Rinnegan Obito pretty well. He was probably just massively outsped, not perception blitzed, especially since we see him raise his arms when KCM2 Naruto makes his entrance (I know they were raised in the page prior, but not to that level). Why do you think Kishimoto set up the scene so that Kakashi would have his MS activated, allowing him to perceive Naruto's speed more accurately and then having him mistake Naruto as Minato? Seems pretty arbitrary if not to show their relativity.

It says he "dashes like a thunder" on that page. And it talks about the speed at which he kills enemies, or his combat speed. FTG is certainly part of his speed in combat, but it's not THE thing.

TSOs are fast enough that Kakashi and Obito combining their Kamui barely outsped them from a long distance, while Obito on his own outsped Madara's combat speed from a much shorter distance, meaning TSOs>>Madara's regular combat speed.

Spoiler: Essay part 2

This is Juubidara after absorbing the god tree tree

I assume you're talking about the early Juubito fight when he was mentally nerfed,

mental nerf's lower your battle sense not you pure stats

your the only person i know who can take someone being nerfed as proof to wank them , Dont change

Anyways Minato blitzed him (it's not FTG, you can see the speed lines indicating he came from above, and the sound effect is different from FTG's trademark "FFT").

that isnt KCm2 Naruto, also no? flying Raijin doesnt have a distinct onomatopoeia,

Idk...Base Minato~KCM2 Naruto (at least speedwise) and KCM Minato~BSM Naruto be pretty cool (if ur gonna point out that BSM/KCM = WA SM Naruto, keep in mind that Minato is Edo nerfed and Naruto has more mastery over Kurama than Minato)

Base Minato =KCM Naruto, supported by many sources, Minato earlier in the fight was caught off guard by Tobirama's flying Raijin, who himself was blitzed by obito who couldn't blitz KCM2 Naruto the same way.

KCM 2 Minato= KCM2 Naruto.

 

[GTsek]

Uhhhhh, you said a lot without really saying a lot. First of all, the game thing is clearly not what he's referring to and you know that. Secondly, it doesn't matter what he specifically meant, the general idea is that he believes Minato unmatched in combat, and for Minato to be unmatched in combat, his stats need to be at least in the ballpark of Ay. If he couldn't even harm him, it wouldn't matter how good any of his other attributes are. If he doesn't have time to do anything before being blitzed other than teleportation, it doesn't matter how skilled he is, he isn't doing anything to Ay.

I was refuting a mistranslation, the intent of your message was to try to validate a personal point of view using a mistranslation, it doesn't matter if it was a tool or a person, the translation is wrong. And what is the meaning of that? I can calmly fight a person who uses teleportation to dodge and attack and think that no one can defeat this person due to the fact that I, who have super speed, have never been able to hit him. There are literally several possibilities to interpret Ay's statement, and you are claiming that only yours is correct without having any support I already have support, in addition to the fact that the fight we saw on screen literally shows Minato having only reaction to Ay and using Hiraishin, we have SEVERAL statement that all the fame of Minato's speed is thanks to Hiraishin, and EVERY time he fights his approach method is Hiraishin, that's his fighting style, the only time he used Shunshin on screen was when he stopped Kakashi from killing Obito.

?? When did Minato say no one can defeat Obito?

Can I use your argument against you? Minato says:

•"あの時九尾を操り里を襲わせた黒幕がいるそれもかなりの力を持つ忍だ特別な力がなければ到底太刀打ちできない.

Translation: There is a mastermind who manipulated the Nine-Tails and attacked the village. He is a powerful ninja, and without special abilities, we can't compete with him."

The expression "特別な力がなければ到底太刀打ちできない" (tokubetsu na chikara ga nakereba toutou tachiauchi dekinai) means "not able to compete" or "not a match" for the Obito without special abilities. In other words, Minato is saying that Obito is very powerful, and without special abilities, they would have no chance of facing or stopping him. Basically, the statement is in the sense that Minato claims he has no chance against Obito, and saw no way to defeat him without some special trump card. Look, even if he did well in the battle and managed to free Kurama from Obito's control, Minato still thinks Obito is too strong and wasn't able to defeat him, it's extremely the same situation with Ay, We know that statement is thanks to Obito's intangibility, that is, Ay's statement could be because of Hiraishin, after all, in the first fight between them, we see that he can't even touch Minato thanks to Hiraishin, so, after several battles and he couldn't even touch Minato, it's completely plausible that, Ay who thought he (Ay) is the fastest and couldn't touch Minato, so no one could, thanks to Hiraishin. Now, what are my arguments regarding Hiraishin? Simple:

•His fame is thanks to Hiraishin.
•The secret of his speed is the Hiraishin.
•His greatest feats are thanks to Hiraishin.
•His nickname is thanks to Hiraishin.
•His fighting style is completely based on Hiraishin.
•EVERY time he moves forward to attack he uses Hiraishin.
•In the fight against Ay that we saw on the screen, he only uses the Hiraishin.

If Ay's statement assumes that Minato had physical attributes comparable to him, then it means that 14 year old Obito was comparable to Minato in attributes as well... This leaves the scale very inconsistent.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

@GTsek
There is a mastermind who manipulated the Nine-Tails and attacked the village. He is a powerful ninja, and without special abilities, we can't compete with him."

just kinda proves that Minato isnt talking about strength lmao

 

[GTsek]

@GTsek
There is a mastermind who manipulated the Nine-Tails and attacked the village. He is a powerful ninja, and without special abilities, we can't compete with him."

just kinda proves that Minato isnt talking about strength lmao

Yes, that's my point, you can fight someone and think that person is undefeated and that doesn't mean you're talking about strength and physical attributes. Ay's statement could mean the same thing.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Spoiler: essay part 3

Spoiler: Essay part 2

This is Juubidara after absorbing the god tree tree

Are you talking about the TSO thing? Cause that just helps my case. He didn't have the God Tree when he shot TSOs at Obito and Kakashi, but did when he threw a rod at Sakura.

mental nerf's lower your battle sense not you pure stats

In most series' I could see that but not in Naruto where chakra, the source of your power, literally comes from your body and mind. Also we see mental amps boosting stats, like when Naruto blitzed Kaguya, why can't they nerf stats?

your the only person i know who can take someone being nerfed as proof to wank them , Dont change

??? So many people use the Minato mental nerf thing to argue against his antifeats

that isnt KCm2 Naruto, also no? flying Raijin doesnt have a distinct onomatopoeia,

Yeah, I just assumed that's the form of Naruto you meant cause a lot of ppl call MKCM KCM2 and he never fights Juubito in pure KCM2, unless you count him cloaking the Shinobi Alliance and helping teleport them out of Juubito's barrier?

From the Ay flashback onwards, FFT is basically always used when someone appears at their destination with FTG. The 3 surrounding times of that moment all use it, seems more consistent for it to just be movement, especially cause I'm pretty sure the FMP sound effect has never been used for FTG.

Base Minato =KCM Naruto, supported by many sources, Minato earlier in the fight was caught off guard by Tobirama's flying Raijin, who himself was blitzed by obito who couldn't blitz KCM2 Naruto the same way.

KCM 2 Minato= KCM2 Naruto.

There are lots of things for JONIN Minato~KCM Naruto, and many things for Hokage Minato~KCM2 Naruto. The Kakashi comparison, Minato wanting Naruto to master Kurama's power to defeat Obito (which is confirmed to be about KCM2 and not KCM1 by both Kurama and Minato)

Minato outsped 100% Kurama who should be significantly faster than KCM Naruto as all of Naruto's speed comes from a fraction of half Kurama's chakra (and because he can fire Bijuudamas at a relative speed to SM Hashirama's Shinsuu Senju and is compared to the Base Hashirama's Wood Golem in combat ability (which is definitely faster than KCM1 Naruto).

Minato tagteamed BZ Obito alongside WA Kakashi for several chapters and planned to do a combat attack with their Rasengan and Chidori and BZ calling both of them persistent, which heavily implies their relativity, Kakashi showing speed feats close to KCM2 Naruto

Dazed Minato again, and Juubito didn't really BLITZ Tobirama considering he placed an FTG tag on him mid attack and anyways when did Juubito try to attack KCM2 Naruto? Also you didn't respond to the very direct showing of KCM Minato and BSM Naruto fighting Juubito side by side.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Spoiler: sigh

I was refuting a mistranslation, the intent of your message was to try to validate a personal point of view using a mistranslation, it doesn't matter if it was a tool or a person, the translation is wrong. And what is the meaning of that? I can calmly fight a person who uses teleportation to dodge and attack and think that no one can defeat this person due to the fact that I, who have super speed, have never been able to hit him. There are literally several possibilities to interpret Ay's statement, and you are claiming that only yours is correct without having any support I already have support, in addition to the fact that the fight we saw on screen literally shows Minato having only reaction to Ay and using Hiraishin, we have SEVERAL statement that all the fame of Minato's speed is thanks to Hiraishin, and EVERY time he fights his approach method is Hiraishin, that's his fighting style, the only time he used Shunshin on screen was when he stopped Kakashi from killing Obito.

Do you speak Japanese fluently?

Why are you putting words in my mouth? I'm not saying mine is the only interpretation, just that I believe it's the most likely one given the context. Also the raws literally use the word surpass/exceed/be superior/other stuff like that in Ay's statement about Minato, it certainly seems to be about his ability rather than simply a matchup thing of Ay not being able to hit Minato.

He didn't only react with FTG, he threw his kunai to Ay's side from point blank range (note that Minato's kunai is completely at his side when Ay's fist is already centimeters from his face, yet he has time to throw it all the way to Ay's back before teleporting).

No the statement are not ONLY about FTG. It's stated that Minato "dashes" like a thunder, and that the Yellow Flash title comes from FTG AND "the figure of him mowing down and killing enemies in an instant, just like a flash of lightning." It's very plainly and blatantly stating that his title is from the speed at which he dashes, AKA movement speed, kills, which is combat speed, AND teleports.

The 2nd and 4th databook both using the term god-like speed does not in any way shape or form prove they're referring to the same thing. That's a pretty common phrase. Ay was stated to have god-like speed too, but he doesn't have FTG.

Yes it's his fighting style because FTG is better than Shunshin, that doesn't mean he's not proficient at the latter, which we saw in the war. And no, he has used Shunshin many more times than that.

Can I use your argument against you? Minato says:

•"あの時九尾を操り里を襲わせた黒幕がいるそれもかなりの力を持つ忍だ特別な力がなければ到底太刀打ちできない.

Translation: There is a mastermind who manipulated the Nine-Tails and attacked the village. He is a powerful ninja, and without special abilities, we can't compete with him."

The expression "特別な力がなければ到底太刀打ちできない" (tokubetsu na chikara ga nakereba toutou tachiauchi dekinai) means "not able to compete" or "not a match" for the Obito without special abilities. In other words, Minato is saying that Obito is very powerful, and without special abilities, they would have no chance of facing or stopping him. Basically, the statement is in the sense that Minato claims he has no chance against Obito, and saw no way to defeat him without some special trump card. Look, even if he did well in the battle and managed to free Kurama from Obito's control, Minato still thinks Obito is too strong and wasn't able to defeat him, it's extremely the same situation with Ay, We know that statement is thanks to Obito's intangibility, that is, Ay's statement could be because of Hiraishin, after all, in the first fight between them, we see that he can't even touch Minato thanks to Hiraishin, so, after several battles and he couldn't even touch Minato, it's completely plausible that, Ay who thought he (Ay) is the fastest and couldn't touch Minato, so no one could, thanks to Hiraishin. Now, what are my arguments regarding Hiraishin? Simple:

Minato has FTG which is a special ability. And are you sure it says we and not you? That's what translators seem to say (depending on the website it seems to say something along the lines of without special power, you can't compete with him at all, which makes a lot more sense in this context since Minato is dead and can't fight him and he's talking about Naruto fighting Obito in the future, and it lines up with VIZ more).

Uhhhhhh, he melted off Obito's arm, stabbed him in the gut, forced him into retreat, is stated by WoG to have overwhelmed him, and still had a mark on Obito to which he could offguard him at any time. Pretty clear he won that battle, and would've killed him if Kurama wasn't around.

? Why is that statement purely because of intangibility? The sucking aspect of it is pretty lethal.

That would allow Minato to survive against Ay, but why would that make him view Minato as his superior? Also if Ay was really so much faster than Minato, then in subsequent encounters, he could've blitzed Minato before he has time to spread kunai, because according to you he can only keep up with Ay due to FTG right? Or Ay could've just ran around getting rid of Minato's markers one by one, and if Minato doesn't have the AP to damage him, then he couldn't have stopped him. There are far too many holes in the argument that Minato's only way of keeping up is FTG and his stats are far inferior.

•His fame is thanks to Hiraishin.

And movement/combat speed.

•The secret of his speed is the Hiraishin.
•His greatest feats are thanks to Hiraishin.

Of course, it's instant teleportation. Even if his physical speed was like BSM Naruto level, FTG would still allow him to perform faster feats in combat than his base speed. ANYONE attaining FTG would have their best speed feats with it. Sasuke's best speed feats are with Amenotejikara, like almost tagging K2 Jigen and blitzing Juubidara (at least the best speed feat for early Rinnegan Sasuke), yet that doesn't mean he's anywhere near slow without it.

•His nickname is thanks to Hiraishin.
•His fighting style is completely based on Hiraishin.
•EVERY time he moves forward to attack he uses Hiraishin.
•In the fight against Ay that we saw on the screen, he only uses the Hiraishin.

Ninja have specialized moves, that's just a thing. Kakashi has Sharingan and Raikiri, Naruto has Rasengan and Shadow Clones (for most of the series), Mei has her Kekkai Genkai, Minato has FTG and Rasengan. Characters specializing in a few things doesn't equal them being lacking in other areas.

If Ay's statement assumes that Minato had physical attributes comparable to him, then it means that 14 year old Obito was comparable to Minato in attributes as well... This leaves the scale very inconsistent.

Well Obito is close to Minato in physical speed and strength, but anyways those two statements are really not the same. Ay's talking about how Minato is the best shinobi ever, and Minato's talking about how Naruto needs special power to take Obito on. Context is key.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

Spoiler: essay part 3

Are you talking about the TSO thing? Cause that just helps my case. He didn't have the God Tree when he shot TSOs at Obito and Kakashi, but did when he threw a rod at Sakura.

Spoiler: essay part 3

how does that help your case???

In most series' I could see that but not in Naruto where chakra, the source of your power, literally comes from your body and mind. Also we see mental amps boosting stats, like when Naruto blitzed Kaguya, why can't they nerf stats?

because the degree to the nerf isnt quantifiable

Yeah, I just assumed that's the form of Naruto you meant cause a lot of ppl call MKCM KCM2 and he never fights Juubito in pure KCM2, unless you count him cloaking the Shinobi Alliance and helping teleport them out of Juubito's barrier?

no your thinking of post bond KCM, or KCM 1.5 (which is dumb because people think naruto having his coat high means his between KCM and KCm 2 , when the only reason that visual exists is because base naruto's coat is up, but i digress)

From the Ay flashback onwards, FFT is basically always used when someone appears at their destination with FTG. The 3 surrounding times of that moment all use it, seems more consistent for it to just be movement, especially cause I'm pretty sure the FMP sound effect has never been used for FTG.

thats because kishi doesnt always draw the sound, sometimes he just draws the sound of minato landing, which is what you see with the FMP thumps ect

and many things for Hokage Minato~KCM2 Naruto. The Kakashi comparison

You and I both know this is a stretch lmao
the reason the comparison is made isnt because they =, it's because Kakashi is caught off guard by Naruto who appears like Minato because of the golden speed lines and cloak.

, Minato wanting Naruto to master Kurama's power to defeat Obito (which is confirmed to be about KCM2 and not KCM1 by both Kurama and Minato)

No lol, Minato's statement isnt referring to any specific form, it's a holistic statement about mastering Kurama's powers in general, Minato doesnt actually know the difference in strength between half, KCM naruto ect because him sealing the fox was something he did as a last ditch effort that resulted in his death. also we know it's very unlikely Minato was talking about strength anyway, because once again at that momemt in time Minato thought Obito was Madara Uchiha, the guy who commanded the nine tails fought the first hokage ect, as well as the fact that he had a space time ninjutsu that scared Minato. also a much weaker Naruto was performing very well against a Much stronger Obito.

Minato outsped 100% Kurama who should be significantly faster than KCM Naruto as all of Naruto's speed comes from a fraction of half Kurama's chakra (and because he can fire Bijuudamas at a relative speed to SM Hashirama's Shinsuu Senju and is compared to the Base Hashirama's Wood Golem in combat ability (which is definitely faster than KCM1 Naruto).

Nah lmao, Kurama has a ridiculous amount of Anti feats that make him even slower than KCM 1 Naruto, but i dont want to touch that here because i dont want the thread to turn into a kurama cucking one.

Minato tagteamed BZ Obito alongside WA Kakashi for several chapters and planned to do a combat attack with their Rasengan and Chidori and BZ calling both of them persistent, which heavily implies their relativity, Kakashi showing speed feats close to KCM2 Naruto

No War Arc Kakashi is much closer in speed to KCM 1 Naruto based on their performance against white masked Obito, which extends for multiple and mean multiple chapters as oppose to a one off panel, also this just kinda supports my point for Base Minato ~ KCM Narut

Also you didn't respond to the very direct showing of KCM Minato and BSM Naruto fighting Juubito side by side.

Because that isnt just KCM 2 Minato, Thats KCM 2 Minato being amped by Naruto's Senjutsu lol.

 

[GTsek]

Do you speak Japanese fluently?

Why are you putting words in my mouth? I'm not saying mine is the only interpretation, just that I believe it's the most likely one given the context. Also the raws literally use the word surpass/exceed/be superior/other stuff like that in Ay's statement about Minato, it certainly seems to be about his ability rather than simply a matchup thing of Ay not being able to hit Minato.

I'm a Japanese student, and yes, the tools translate wrongly, I already explained why, you are taking the Literal translation of a kanji and ignoring the context of the scene, and you are also is ignoring how the Japanese construct sentences, I literally explained everything in my comment. Do you think that fans who translate manga and anime do how? they take the text and throw it into a tool and translate? of course not, just like me, they know the meanings of the kanjis, but they need to look carefully at the construction of the sentence because kanji has X isolated meaning, but when it is in a sentence it has Y meaning, and it can even have a third meaning if the sentence is specific, that's why translations take hours or even days. It would be a lot easier if they just put the kanji in deepL, but they don't because it's unreliable.

I won't go into the merits of answering the rest, you didn't refute anything I actually said, I would just be repeating what I already said and that sucks, this whole thread is, it looks like it's going nowhere, unless Damage comes out and gives his opinion. We're just going around in circles.

 

[RoyGundam]

this whole thread is, it looks like it's going nowhere

This thread is going nowhere because first of all, it is not proposing any concrete changes

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Why are you putting words in my mouth? I'm not saying mine is the only interpretation, just that I believe it's the most likely one given the context. Also the raws literally use the word surpass/exceed/be superior/other stuff like that in Ay's statement about Minato, it certainly seems to be about his ability rather than simply a matchup thing of Ay not being able to hit Minato.

I got the scan in question translated by a friend, which is pretty much 1:1 with what you’re describing.

手合わせは幾度としたものだ。アレに勝る忍はいないとまで思わされる男だった。

We had fought many times. He was a man who'd make you think there was no Shinobi who could surpass him.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Spoiler: 4th time's the charm

how does that help your case???

When Madara used TSOs, he was weaker than when he used his own combat speed against Kamui, yet his TSOs were still far faster.

because the degree to the nerf isnt quantifiable

The fact that it's unquantifiable means nothing. The point is that it's unquantifiable on both ends, meaning that using mental nerfed antifeats is fallacious cause you can't prove the mental nerfed version scales close to the normal version. Conversely, (most) people don't use resolve amped feats to scale someone normally. All you can really say for situations in which a character's mental state is out of the ordinary is that their normal ability is less than when they're amped, and more than when they're nerfed, and anything else is just headcanon unless there's a specific way to prove the degree of the nerf.

no your thinking of post bond KCM, or KCM 1.5 (which is dumb because people think naruto having his coat high means his between KCM and KCm 2 , when the only reason that visual exists is because base naruto's coat is up, but i digress)

Regardless of what you call it, the point is that Juubito never fought KCM2 Naruto.

thats because kishi doesnt always draw the sound, sometimes he just draws the sound of minato landing, which is what you see with the FMP thumps ect

It's possible sure, but there's still nothing that particularly suggests it's FTG.

You and I both know this is a stretch lmao
the reason the comparison is made isnt because they =, it's because Kakashi is caught off guard by Naruto who appears like Minato because of the golden speed lines and cloak.

From a writing standpoint that really doesn't make sense. Naruto's always been compared to Minato with his progressions throughout the series. Having his final progression in comparison with Minato being the reaching of his speed just fits. Especially because Guy's commenting on his speed in the panel right before Kakashi makes his comparison. And does Minato's Shunshin even have golden speedlines? KCM Minato's does, but I'm pretty sure we've never seen that on Base Minato. Also pretty convenient how Kakashi just happened to be set up to have his MS active in that scene, letting him see Naruto's speed more accurately.

No lol, Minato's statement isnt referring to any specific form, it's a holistic statement about mastering Kurama's powers in general, Minato doesnt actually know the difference in strength between half, KCM naruto ect because him sealing the fox was something he did as a last ditch effort that resulted in his death. also we know it's very unlikely Minato was talking about strength anyway, because once again at that momemt in time Minato thought Obito was Madara Uchiha, the guy who commanded the nine tails fought the first hokage ect, as well as the fact that he had a space time ninjutsu that scared Minato. also a much weaker Naruto was performing very well against a Much stronger Obito.

It really is. Every time someone talks about KCM1, they talk about how Naruto's in control or command (or something like that) of Kurama's power, and only when he reaches KCM2, Kurama specifically flashbacks to Minato saying he'd master his power and makes the same statement using the same word, talking about how this power was meant to take Obito down.

Talk about me being nitpicky all you want, but it's pretty sus that Minato's saying he wants Naruto to master Nine Tails power, and not ONCE is the word mastery used in reference to KCM1 but is to KCM2.

Nah lmao, Kurama has a ridiculous amount of Anti feats that make him even slower than KCM 1 Naruto, but i dont want to touch that here because i dont want the thread to turn into a kurama cucking one.

Sure that's not the most important point don't have to start a whole other debate (hard disagree tho)

No War Arc Kakashi is much closer in speed to KCM 1 Naruto based on their performance against white masked Obito, which extends for multiple and mean multiple chapters as oppose to a one off panel, also this just kinda supports my point for Base Minato ~ KCM Narut

Are you saying WM Obito~KCM Naruto? Cause naaaaaaaaaaaah, he's clearly KCM2 level. 3T Obito reacted to Naruto's chakra arm which is faster than himself, ejected a rod from the Kamui dimension faster than Naruto could reach Obito, reacts to his Bijuudama, physically reacts to chains thrown by Naruto's chakra tails, blitzes Naruto with Wood Style, reacts to Naruto hurling Kakashi, reacts to his chakra arm at a much closer distance (and runs a distance before Naruto's able to punch at him), and reacts to his Rasenshuriken.

Reacting to the Rasenshuriken and Bijuudama is insane, cause they scale a Susanoo Arrow amp above the user in speed.

MKCM Naruto and Obito only show relativity when Obito still had the 3T Sharingan on rather than the MS, which he switches to at the start of Chapter 598, at which point he shows clear relativity to KCM2.

The only time after this that MKCM Naruto and MS Obito interact is when Naruto reacts to him from long distance which I don't really think counts, and dodges Obito falling from the Kamui dimension. But we don't know if that's equal to his physical speed since Obito had to come out of the Kamui dimension before attacking, in addition to the fact that Kakashi warned him before Obito exited the portal and he moves slower than Obito anyways given the respective distances travelled. And he may have been in 3T, given that we see he has the 3T Sharingan active in the next page.

Btw not speed, but another thing that helps suggest Kakashi being KCM2 level (though him tagging Obito faster than Naruto despite being farther is pretty blatant) is that his physical strikes seem to do comparable if not greater damage to Obito than KCM2 Naruto's headbutt.

Because that isnt just KCM 2 Minato, Thats KCM 2 Minato being amped by Naruto's Senjutsu lol.

Uh what are you talking about? The only thing Naruto amps is the Rasengan, not Minato's Avatar.

Spoiler: why'd i bring up the raws

I'm a Japanese student, and yes, the tools translate wrongly, I already explained why, you are taking the Literal translation of a kanji and ignoring the context of the scene, and you are also is ignoring how the Japanese construct sentences, I literally explained everything in my comment. Do you think that fans who translate manga and anime do how? they take the text and throw it into a tool and translate? of course not, just like me, they know the meanings of the kanjis, but they need to look carefully at the construction of the sentence because kanji has X isolated meaning, but when it is in a sentence it has Y meaning, and it can even have a third meaning if the sentence is specific, that's why translations take hours or even days. It would be a lot easier if they just put the kanji in deepL, but they don't because it's unreliable.

Words can have different meanings depending on the context, but the word's still gonna be part of the sentence, no? Something about surpassing is in that statement. If for example the phrase "you're great" is in a sentence, that suggests someone is complimenting another person, but the full sentence could be "You're great at screwing things up." The meaning isn't the same as the phrase in isolation, but the phrase is still in the sentence.

Yeah, but these translators all seem to think the statement is about Minato surpassing everyone else, given that's what the VIZ states, and the two most popular fan translations, none of them imply Ay is saying he specifically can't beat him cause of a matchup disadvantage or anything like that (and now a 3rd fan's translation also lines up with this, there's certainly a preponderance of evidence for that position).

I won't go into the merits of answering the rest, you didn't refute anything I actually said, I would just be repeating what I already said and that sucks, this whole thread is, it looks like it's going nowhere, unless Damage comes out and gives his opinion. We're just going around in circles.

Uhhhhh, if you say so.

I got the scan in question translated by a friend, which is pretty much 1:1 with what you’re describing.

W

Ngl I kinda wanna make another Minato upgrade CRT after this thread, the downplaying has gone too far

 

[Shadow_Somnius]

Spoiler: Essay part 2

I thought you were talking about AP with this, because I recall you agreeing in the past that Minato is faster than SM Naruto. And yes, SM Naruto's Rasenshuriken is stronger than Minato, I'm just talking about Minato being above SM Naruto's normal attacks, considering Fukasaku didn't know about the RS and thus wasn't talking about that.

I honestly lost you. Where does Fukasaku factor into this? The statement you brought up talks of IA Naruto though. Not SM.

Considering he doesn't use SM in regular combat, that's quite unlikely. Rivalling the amount of power that Minato actually uses in battles makes more sense. VSBW rates the other Sannin as relative to Base Jiraiya, not SM Jiraiya despite him having SM when the statements about Sannin relativity were made. While I think that's contentious, it's much less so in Minato's case who's never shown using SM while alive.

The statement you brought blatantly says 'The Fourth Hokage's power'. They did not say battle power or combat strength. Power generally means whatever is in their arsenal. You'd have to prove that when they talked of power, it was strictly referring to Base.

You can show those if you want, and what makes them invalid?

Contradictory feats? Lack of feats? Conflicting statements etc. Generally, statements such as those aren't supposed to be taken at face value so no without further context. You are well aware that's against wiki standards.

And even if your interpretation is correct, that's still pretty insane considering Tendo took a 6T Naruto Bijuudama with just some mild burns.

My interpretation is correct. Withstand means to be unscathed by so not withstand would mean to be damaged but getting a scratch would also count as damage.

Evidence that he tanked the TBB?

Spoiler

Looking at the prior page we can see that the direction of the bijuu Bomb isn't directly at Pain who still has his arm stretched. It is likely he used Shinra Tensei to deflect the bijuu bomb. He was likely somewhere at the edge for if he was really at the brunt of it, his clothes should have completely burned away at the very least even if he isn't damaged considering we see Paper bombs were enough to taint Obito's clothes.

How is it hyperbolic?

Because the bolded statements are always hyperbolic.

How would you want it to be phrased to not be hyperbolic?

Have corroborating feats. Have some knowledgeable characters in the manga affirm.

And that's not the same as the flavor text like things at the top of the page, it's just the header for a subsection. Something being bold doesn't automatically makes it invalid.

You misunderstand. Hyperbolic doesn't mean wrong or invalid. It just means exaggerated. RS is a powerful jutsu but at the same time, it needs more than a databook statement that too one that's more credible. Non-hyperbolic statements of similar nature have elucidation on why this technique or jutsu is the most powerful or unbeatable.

That's not my point did you read what I said? What I'm saying is that it means Minato is superior to anyone else around at the time, which includes people like OM Obito and Pain, who are in turn superior to PA SM Naruto. Also you could argue it includes the Raikage since he had been mentioned, even if he hadn't been shown.

Hashirama and Madara have been referenced all the way back as Part-1. Even the legendary Sage of the Six Paths had been referred prior so yeah, nope. Kakashi and Naruto's statements during IA are made before SM and lack knowledge of characters like Pain and Obito. The Databook statement, unfortunately, doesn't aid you either for we see in the future, multiple shinobi surpass Minato and grow stronger.

But even then the statement fails to support you. I ask you to read the databook statement carefully. It only claims that Naruto is the only shinobi who can surpass Minato, this however doesn't mean Minato is stronger than any other shinobi introduced at the time. I don't see how you got such a strange interpretation. The statement clearly refers to shinobi who are weaker than Minato at the time and among them, Naruto is the only one who can surpass him. This however does not account for shinobi at that time who are already stronger than Minato. Because the statement is only in reference to having the ability to exceed.

Besides, the statement is from the 3rd Databook, I assume. The Databooks work with the information provided in the manga for the chapters it covers. It doesn't go for future information beyond the designated chapters. By the making of Databook III, they won't have information of Obito or the full capabilities of Pain. So, they might have very well been speaking with everything shown about those characters until then and not any feats they showcase in the future which might put them at a higher level.

It's in past tense because it's about someone who lived in the past. Madara said that Hashirama "was" the ultimate shinobi, but that's not implication for him being surpassed, just that he's not alive anymore so he's not using present tense.

False equivalence. Hashirama for starters never had anti-statements to his power. Edo Hashirama came back and still proved superior to 99% of the verse in a nerfed state at that. Even the flashback of a Prime Hashirama gives him feats that nearly none in the world can hold a candle to. Unfortunately, this is not the case for Minato who has contradictory statements and whose flashbacks don't put him anywhere near the level you are proposing.

Stop calling everything involving high praise hyperbolic You need justification for that, you can't just say it's hyperbolic and leave it at that. And why is he knowledgeable on Hashirama and Madara? They died before he was even born (at least Hashirama did, Madara was alive but was ya know hidden).

Once again, Hyperbole=/= wrong. Because he most definitely would have heard legends about them. Besides the entire world including the Kages were frightened by the name Madara and went off to war because of it. Tsunade even highlights that name itself was power. Madara had already established a powerful reputation that chilled the world to its bone. Unfortunately, Minato has nowhere near the hype or portrayal contending that.

I'm not using this statement in reference to Naruto, I'm using it to scale Minato above the 3rd and 4th Raikage, who scale above PA SM Naruto.

Saying "Even with all his power" was a summary of his descriptions of Minato. He's saying he's faster than him, the best shinobi ever, and the savior, yet still died with all his power.

Exactly. They are independent but interconnected assertions to build up Minato. They aren't all referring to his power. The final one, "Even with all his power" can be also thought of as an acknowledgment that Minato's power is great but great does mean unreach(able/ed) or unsurpass(able/ed).

Besides, for Ay to think he's the finest shinobi ever he should be stronger than him anyways, cause power is his main criteria for the quality of a shinobi (I'm getting some serious flashbacks...).

Him just thinking Minato is the greatest shinobi ever because he's wise or nice makes no sense both in general and in respect to Ay's philosophy.

This doesn't help you either. If he was only judging based on action and power, he would have immense respect for those like Madara. You don't think that, do you? The finer statement means Minato is greater as a concept, don't try to twist it up or I'll be forced to do another CRT declaring Itachi>Hashirama. A4 obviously respects Minato and the power he boasts. I never said Minato is weak or a loser but arguing that means Minato is the most powerful is a stretch.

Of course it's his opinion, it's not like he's God. But if he believes it, that means Minato>Everyone he knows the strength of, which would include FKS Sasuke btw, who's obviously >>Taka Sasuke, having the Skeletal Susanoo and Inferno Style Flame Control on top of his hatred amping his stats.

No, if he's subjective, it means he's not looking at it from an objective viewpoint. Being subjective implies he can be wrong in even his own knowledge. Because 'making someone think' or 'making it seem' doesn't necessitate 'actually being'. I could 'think' the strange figure in my dark room is a demon but looking at it objectively, it's likely to be a coat rack taking that form in the darkness. Being subjective takes a great hit to its veracity.

Sure, that was a side point, but it's narrative support at least.

Of course it's not enough evidence on its own, that's why I used it in conjunction with several pieces of evidence pointing to Minato>SM Naruto. And he could've thought of many things, why specifically a goal he's already reached?

You'd have to prove that there was any relevance to him thinking of that. It might have simply been what came to Naruto's head at that point. Nothing more, nothing less.

Btw, another thing I forgot to mention. The Hokage is selected as the strongest in the village, thus Minato is stronger than Kushina, who Naruto said he wants to become more powerful than (not to mention the fact that Naruto in that same speech said he wanted to surpass all other Hokage, meaning he thinks he hasn't, and he only knows Old Hiruzen/Minato/Tsunade, and has definitively surpassed Old Hiruzen/Tsunade at this point, which pretty heavily implies Minato>WA SM Naruto/eKCM Naruto, unless you think he's just assuming Hashirama and Tobirama's strength).

Double standards much? If you can confidently claim Naruto surpassed Tsunade and Hiruzen then going by that vein, I can also claim as per the evidence I have posted, Naruto surpassed Minato as well and was likely referring to Hashirama who was superior to Madara whom Minato himself accepts was a significant trouble for and who has threatened the entire world into a war.

This is not accounting for the fact that the statement is blatantly contradicted. Naruto surpassed Tsunade which you yourself just claimed. Yet Naruto wasn't declared Hokage. Even when Tsunade went into a coma, the Hokage candidates were Kakashi and Danzo, two other people of varying power standing. Even after Danzo's death, Naruto's name wasn't even mentioned once and they were fully ready to appoint Kakashi as the 6th. Okay, let's leave that. Post War, Tsunade relinquishes her position, do I need to tell you who took that mantle when two unbelievably strong re-incarnations of Ninja Gods were present within the village?

This proves that you need to be more than just the strongest to be appointed Hokage. If my memory serves me right, Naruto was tasked to study the various shinobi system and the fundamentals of running the village before he can be eligible to take up that mantle. Something identical can be argued for Kushina as well who might be stronger than Minato but lacking in other aspects to become Hokage. Naruto only saying that he has to become more powerful than his mother but makes nothing similar of his father serves to drive this point even further.

So you find the idea that he was fighting in the war at 7-8 years old more likely than him just hearing stories? Really?

One cannot draw a comparison between two people's reactions and nerve transmission by simply hearing stories of one or both. Once again, you are casting unfounded doubt on an explicit statement that we have no reason to believe is incorrect.

What makes you so certain he wasn't fighting in the war at those ages? He could have simply been a precocious shinobi sent to the battlefield due to a personnel shortage. Or he could have simply been a young lad commuting between villages when he happened upon Minato. Or it could be an LoW situation where Genin C and his team were dispatched on what was thought to be a D-rank mission that turned A or S-rank. Multiple ways exist he could have acquired that knowledge but what remains inarguably true is that he possesses it and he made an explicit comment based on that.

It's not even like he's saying this, it's just a thought he had in his head. Sure he probably got that idea from somewhere, but where? It doesn't have to be from witnessing it firsthand, and if it's not, it's just secondhand testimony. We both don't know where Cee got his knowledge from and have evidence pointing to the idea that he was too young to fight Minato firsthand. It's really suspect at best.

Its only suspect to Minato wankers. The author never went on to call or imply that Cee was an unreliable person instead he had the databook hype him up to be the brains behind Raikage's group and an all-around rational intellectual. You are trying hard to dismiss the statement but unless you can provide solid proof no matter how much you try this will remain true.

They're related, but they're not one and the same. That's like saying Ay is stronger than Tsunade because he has bigger muscles. Muscles are correlated to strength, but they're far from the only component.

Once again, false equivalence. Tsunade has shown the ability to use her expert chakra control on her fists to enhance her strength. Minato and A4 don't have anything similar for their speed other than FTG and RCM. Nerve transmission is fundamental to movement. Why do you think some people are faster than you, why do you think some people can dodge or physically react better? Its because their nerve conduction is faster than yours. Other factors that determine movement are genetics, body type, muscle fibers etc. We lack any information on these factors to determine if Minato has any advantage in any of these. If anything, A4 who was stated to have a strong lineage by Minato himself and a more muscular and well-built body would have more basis to assume a greater speed than Minato.

Spoiler

A soccer player, for example, can improve his running or kicking. In doing so, his knee jerk might get faster. But those kinds of improvements are specific to the activity. A soccer player's feet and legs might develop faster nerve conduction than average. But if that same soccer player were to have a contest of finger speed with a classical pianist, the pianist would win, hands down.

A Quick Look at Reflexes - Health Encyclopedia - University of Rochester Medical Center

www.urmc.rochester.edu

It's a very uncharitable interpretation. Why would he bring Minato up in reference to his current speed if he's far surpassed him? It's not like he was using Minato as a benchmark to boast, like "I'm the fastest shinobi, now that the Fourth Hokage's dead and I've trained to surpass even him." He's praising Minato's speed because he wouldn't be the fastest if he was still around.

That's not an interpretation I disagree with, actually. Minato is a talented shinobi so if he were not to die that day, him being stronger than A4 is quite obvious atleast in my opinion but alas, he did not survive and due to that A4 got 17 years to close and surpass that gap. My interpretation is pretty sound if you ask me. He only said that there has been no shinobi faster than him ever since the fourth died, which is a valid statement. No one faster (in his knowledge) came around. A4 growing faster during that time would have little to no bearing on that statement.

Bruh. your whole CRT is based on 3 statements from characters with unknown knowledge,

Unknown=/=insufficient/unreliable. You also conveniently omitted that my CRT contains explicit statements that the author never even hinted were incorrect.

and now you're gonna argue that 3A's SON who he fought Gyuki with multiple times doesn't know his ability? Come on, be consistent.

You got me here. I concede.

If he did get significantly stronger, you'd think Dodai would've said something, but he just commented on his speed like it was the expected performance from him.

That does not prove he did not grow faster though. Since Dodai doesn't deny that possibility. You yourself stated that you don't need explicit statements to suggest that a character grew stronger.

Not to mention the fact that his battles with Gyuki were before that, and the Bijuu are rated as KCM Naruto level (or Sub-Relativistic).

Bijuu hosted by Jinchuuriki who can utilize their power are stronger than just wild bijuu or hosts without control.

Spoiler

And your arguments with Cee/Bee rely on the idea that Minato fighting since the last time they saw him isn't enough for him to get stronger, so again, your arguments aren't logically consistent with each other. Either those 2 points are invalidated or the 3rd Raikage didn't get particularly stronger if at all (although he didn't anyways cause of the lack of commenting from someone who knew his strength). Also do you fr think Base Ay is faster than the 3rd Raikage who Minato's faster than?

It isn't contradicting. I actually conform with your claim that fighting makes one stronger. The problem is you cannot quantify how much Minato fought or how many he fought. You cannot gauge the difference between the Hokage and Jonin. But that's not the case with A3, he went from potentially weaker than Minato to contending with KCM Naruto so we have a good scaling between the two variants.

But even in the event, I wasn't of this opinion. There's still nothing that suggests A3 is inferior to Minato except that finer statement you have brought up, which I have sufficiently debunked. The other one also doesn't imply Minato is faster than A3.

Spoiler

"Ever since..." still leaves the possibility of a shinobi faster than Minato to exist before him and A3 could be that shinobi. So, the scaling would be:
A3>Young Minato>Young A4 but A3 died before Minato so A4 wouldn't be wrong.

Why would he hold back when attacking Muu?

That can be easily explained as a coordinated attack. If A4 had moved in faster than Tsunade and taken down Mu, Madara would have reacted to that and guarded himself better and might have even counterattacked. To preserve the element of surprise granted by their dramatic arrival, they chose to attack together and that was the best option as Madara as well as Mu were knocked back.

And no, she didn't. Jiraiya died in the Pain Arc, in which she didn't do any fighting, just healing, and then she was in a coma until the WA, when she didn't have time to train and went to war planning immediately after restoring her chakra via food, shortly after which the war started.

Fighting is not the only way to grow stronger.

? No, he asked for help after seeing KCM Naruto for a while.

That's true, I was mistaken about the timeline. But again, that doesn't mean much as she doesn't need to have the same speed to help. She could help in other ways like shattering the ground beneath them making it harder for them to move around. All she would need to do is keep up with them.

And Tsunade thought she could hold Ay off after the whole battle where she saw him using LCM.

Again, doesn't require the same raw speed to do something. Just need to be comparable or able to sufficiently react to their speed. That could even be Tsunade's obligation to Naruto speaking than her confidence to face A4.

But maybe I am a bit dense but I don't see where you are going with this. I had already proved the databook statement doesn't put Minato above Orochimaru. They can all be relative. It would make sense also since the person Minato wants to fight is Jiraya which means he believes his master to at least be of some challenge to him.

Spoiler

Do you have any other statement other than the Databook and Anko's assertion putting Minato over the Saanin?

They had literally just ran to the battlefield, and Hiruzen's talking about speed. Teleportation is clearly referring to Shunshin here.

Or Tobirama teleported them here.

Even if you do think it's about teleportation, that'd just mean Minato was throwing kunai forward and teleporting to it, rinse and repeat faster than Tobirama which equates to faster combat speed, which doesn't help you XD

Forgot about the Gyuki mark again?

Spoiler

Its a funny thing also. Kishimoto's attention to certain details is truly impeccable.

Spoiler

Isn't it the most incredible? The Juubi Bomb gets teleported away right in front Gyuki, the same person Minato had marked decades ago.

We do. Because the databook which has more knowledge than them claims that Ay needs lightning chakra to match Minato's speed,

That can be easily re-interpreted to mean V1 Ay's speed=Hokage MInato's Shunshin as averred previously.

and there are clear scales for Minato>Taka Sasuke/PA SM Naruto.

Proven wrong by Bee and Pa.

Ok, so V1 Ay is blitzing SM Hashirama, cool.

Do not compound me with your wank takes, Alan.

Anyways, The Yellow Flash is Jonin Minato's title so no.

'The Yellow Flash' is a moniker given to Minato. Being Hokage doesn't magically make that title disappear. The burden would be on you to prove if you think that's the case. Especially when Hiruzen has been called The Professor, God of Shinobi and The Third all interchangeably.

The interpretation that fits both the manga and databook is that Jonin Minato's normal speed is V1 Ay level,

That's contradicted by B, C and F's explicit statements from the manga so, no, it doesn't fit the manga. A safer assumption would be Hokage Minato shunshin (the fastest Minato he could have fought) to V1 Ay speed (the variant shown). My interpretation doesn't have B, C and F being any wrong. They are credible sources whom the author hadn't even hinted are unreliable. This requires the least assumptions and is more consistent with manga information. Unlike you, I don't have characters that contradict my scaling declared unreliable without good reason. You also have yet to quantify the difference between Jonin and Hokage Minato.

because the databook compares him to Ay, and he's compared to KCM Naruto in the manga, who was matched by V1 Ay without Shunshin, while his Shunshin is comparable to KCM Naruto's again cause of 2 direct comparisons. The databook statement being about Shunshin doesn't make the most sense cause Shunshin is a very temporary speed amp, a technique. It's not his speed speed.

Quantifiers such as 'speed speed' are fanfic restrictions that you yourself are applying. The databook simply calls it a high-speed technique that's a part of the the users speed. Unless you can prove that the book was talking about the speed outside of Shunshin, I have no reason to believe you.

If there was for example a databook statement about Vegeta being far stronger than Saiyan Saga Goku, that's about Base Goku, cause Kaioken isn't his general strength.

There might be a special context or implication for such an answer. Or you might be interpreting it wrong, just like you and I have differences in how we interpret the databook statements in Naruto. I don't even read DB. But regardless this is not DB, what may apply in that verse may not necessarily apply here.

If that was the case, why was the specific word "outrun" used in reference to what Minato did? There is a parallel here, but that doesn't mean Naruto's speed is comparable to FTG. Minato and Ay fought many times, Bee thought Naruto running Ay was like Minato, probably because he did see that another time. Minato used FTG there cause it was more effective, but that doesn't mean his Shunshin is slower than Ay's or that he never used it against him.

But Naruto using Shunshin being compared to Minato's usage of it? Now that's reasonable.

If that was reasonable, the author wouldn't draw of a visual parallel of Naruto dodging with Shunshin while Minato with FTG. If he wanted to imply physical speed, it would have been just as easy enough for Kishimoto to draw Minato outrunning physically. Seems rather redundant, doesn't it? The author goes through the trouble of drawing Minato dodging via FTG and then goes on to draw a parallel to that with KCM Naruto outrunning via Shunshin just to have the two people commenting on it who were also in the flashback talk of a completely different time when Minato apparently outran him with speed.

The flashback was shown to the reader specifically to draw the parallel between KCM Naruto speed and Minato FTG. The word "outrun" is used in reference to someone outdoing his top speed, whether they did that through pure speed or teleportation the flashback doesn't discriminate. Minato also never showed V2 + speeds. Even steel manning your interpretation of the databook statement, it says he is V1 level and he could not blitz Base Bee.

Also cause Ay specifically says that Minato outran his fastest punch, meaning he used footspeed, not FTG (not to mention the fact that he calls Naruto the savior after this, which was what he thought of Minato as, pretty clear comparison).

Naruto being called a savior doesn't serve much for his speed. You are forgetting that Teleportation is often confused with speed and people have the tendency to use it interchangeably. Even the 2nd Databook calls his technique that of super speed despite it on the very same page recognizing it as a space-time technique.

I felt a little odd about this statement so, I asked around and ran it through multiple online translators and ended up with the word dodge/escape/evade/avoid never outran. This is the DeepL translation.

このワシの最速パンチをかわしたのはお前で二人目だ
You're the second person to dodge my fastest punch.

Is the idea of "The fool really is...just like The Yellow Flash!!" being a speed comparison not straightforward and logically sound as well?

Well if this Yellow Flash you speak of had notable flash step/speed feats and did not possess a jutsu that is often confused with speed and did not have the databook claiming that his alias and speed are all thanks to said jutsu then yes. But since this all is undeniably true, it doesn't.

I did. A majority of my first comment was spent showing through scaling that Hokage Minato was significantly stronger than what you're saying.

Your scaling included statements from the IA and the Third Databook that has no bearing on SM Naruto.

...Uh, yes?

You've said you agree with Minato>Orochimaru now so I won't counter this.

Except that in this case we know Suigetsu knew Orochimaru,

How much? Does he know him in combat prowess? If I am not wrong Suigetsu was there as a lab rat so at most he would have seen Orochimaru when the man was experimenting on him. Do you have any evidence to assume? I might sound hypocritical but just using your own logic here.

unlike Cee who barely knows Minato if at all

Proof he barely knows anything about Minato. The databook clearly portrays him as the brains of the group and the author never once hinted him as being unknowledgeable. You'd be going against the manga here. Mind you, at the end of the day the one who drew C and wrote that statement in that thought bubble was the man himself — Kishimoto who never bothered to state Cee was wrong so you'd be capping to dismiss his statement.

and even if he did he only knew Jonin Minato, and Bee who stopped fighting him midway through the war,

Based on what? Yet Bee knows of a Hokage Minato as per the man himself.

and Fukasaku who's just an unknown.

Once again, Pa is shown to be a sensible man or rather a toad and he has never been stated or implied to be incorrect. For Gamabunta to ask if Naruto reminds him of the two (Jiraya and Minato) and Fukasaku to confidently assert that Naruto has surpassed them, he must have had knowledge of him. As I said, their statement remains apodictic the finer details as to how exactly can be filled in with different assumptions.

And yeah, he's terrified because he thinks Orochimaru is still a threat even if he's weaker than Sasuke.

??? P1 Orochimaru is his peak before the WA. And it's not like he says he beat Orochimaru cause he hadn't buffed himself, he specifically notes the reason to be his arms.

Uhhhh, wdym hell bent? I literally just used one statement in my post, and one other in a different comment.

Yeah, but you argued relativity, which isn't true because Minato>Orochimaru>Taka Sasuke. And no, that wouldn't work because Bee specified that the reason he went Bijuu Mode and got carried away is because Sasuke was one of his strongest opponents, meaning he was referring to 3T Taka Sasuke, which is the state he was in before BM.

Taka Sasuke was physically weaker than he was in his Hebi state.

So it'd be Minato>Younger Hiruzen>Orochimaru>CM2 Hebi Sasuke>>3T Hebi Sasuke>3T Taka Sasuke.

This doesn't necessarily work. First, you'd have to prove the gaps between CM2, CM1, 3T Hebi and 3T Taka are massive.

Second, it could simply be that CM1 and CM2 Sasuke generally scale above Orochimaru. If you refer to your own scan, and as you yourself claim in the quoted, about Orochimaru by Suigetsu, he states that Sasuke could only beat him because his arms were sealed. This could imply Orochimaru with access to his vast arsenal of crazy and powerful ninjutsu would be able to put such a Sasuke down but otherwise can't. Moreover, it doesn't mean with ease either, it can also mean Sasuke would have stalemated Orochimaru or that the latter would win extreme-diff.

Spoiler

Younger Hiruzen being above Orochimaru is a misled claim. If you read the scan, the context is clear that he's stating that in reference to having the strength to pull Orochimaru's soul out. But even if I were to steelman you, it wouldn't mean much as the gap between this Orochimaru and 10 years younger Hiruzen been very small but enough to give him the win.

I assume Minato>Younger Hiruzen is from the Databook that claims the strongest Shinobi is the Hokage. I'll continue addressing that here even though its blatantly contradicted. Plenty of interpretations of that statement exist lol.

• The gap between Minato and Hiruzen might be very, very small, they could even be relative with Minato holding a slightly upper edge which would be more than enough to grant him victory. This would not contradict the Databook statement.
• Minato and that young Hiruzen could even be equals with Hiruzen passing on the torch since he believes it's time for the next generation to take over.
• It could even be Minato was stronger than Hiruzen but in the two years Minato was dead, Hiruzen grew stronger as well.

As I said a number of interpretations are possible.

Hiruzen also claims that the main reason he couldn't select Orochimaru as the fourth was because of his ideals not that he believed he lacked power to do it. But this is a minor supporting point.

Spoiler

Oh and there's no reason Bee couldn't have been thinking of MS Taka Sasuke. Sasuke had brought out his MS to genjutsu Bee and the man goes BM soon after breaking so, he could also have gone BM realizing the threat of the MS. If he had the power of the MS in his mind while going BM which is likely because he immediately did it, the statement would be referring to MS Sasuke.

It was implied in Generations.

I am gonna need more context on this. Can you link the YT video from which this is taken? My counter can change depending on the context.

But let's say this is objectively true. Can you quantify this difference? Him becoming stronger could also mean he went from 42 to 43 points. That would still be valid to call himself stronger.

How? Minato became Hokage after the war.

Does A4 imply that they only fought during the war?

At best he saw him in some sort of meeting or pictures, he couldn't have fought him.

Based on what? Nice headcanon about the pictures, didn't know Minato was a model. A4 and Bee have been never noted to meet Minato outside battles. Prove that it was from a meeting. But even if I were to concede to that claim, it wouldn't change much since a meeting that had Minato boast a serious face with his signature Kunai around him and holding the Rasengan in a battle stance is a meeting gone south.

And he didn't even know what the Rasengan was prior to Naruto explaining it, so he definitely didn't see Minato using that.

Incorrect. He failed to recognize the Rasengan from its name. It simply suggests that he either forgot or didn't know what the jutsu's name was. Because immediately after Naruto claims the jutsu was created by the fourth, he recounts that Minato with the Rasengan. Initially, he wasn't sure if his jutsu was similar to the TBB or not and then after hearing the Fourth's name, he became sure of it. You are literally arguing with the manga.

Also he was literally forbidden from leaving the village so...

Do you know if he respected A4's wishes and stayed considering this is the same guy who tricked his village into thinking he was abducted by the Akatsuki just so that he could get some breather? What if he was dispatched on a mission that required his expertise and skill? But more so, what makes you think he needs to go out of the village to fight Minato? What if some dangerous mission brought Minato close to the Cloud village and Bee went along with A4 in an attempt to protect the village? This wouldn't count as leaving the village either. He could have even witnessed them fight from the border of the village.

Bee remembering Hokage Minato is apodictic. You cannot refute that. We can only make assumptions about how they met but their encounter remains absolute.

1. He defeated Obito, so Naruto being able to defeat Obito doesn't mean he's way stronger than Minato.

It doesn't mean whatever mode or power that Naruto uses to defeat said Obito would be same as Minato's power level either.

2. You're literally saying potentially yourself. He doesn't even know how much stronger Obito would get if at all, yet he's sure of the fact that Naruto needs more power to beat him and that he's using Pain. Him making these judgements off of YM Obito's strength is more reasonable than him just assuming how strong Obito would become.

He's making the judgment out of YM and scaling it to a stronger Obito. If he believed mastering the Kyuubi only made him barely strong enough to face YM Obito then he most definitely wouldn't be any confident Naruto could face a stronger Obito. Minato as you said doesn't know how much stronger Obito would get or even if he would thus, Minato being a smart man would play it safe and prefer Naruto master it completely so that he could face against Obito in the event that he did grow stronger and he wasn't wrong. The man would go on to get the Rinnegan and soon the Juubi itself.

Meh, I find that whole thing kinda 50/50, but either it's about SM mastery or Fukasaku doesn't know Minato's strength that well or at absolute worst, it's referring to pure AP and not overall ability,

The manga and the author disagree by virtue of not portraying Fukasaku as an unreliable source. And its 100 to 0, mind you. Naruto's showing against Asura Path combined with Gamabunta's question (which refers to the two in general and not in any specific stat or status such as AP or Sagehood) followed by Fukasaku's agreement and internal monologue leaves no room for any other interpretation than overall ability.

cause Minato's way faster than Naruto.

Baseless.

Could also argue a moving goalpost thing like with Beerus, but I doubt that considering 10 chapters later we find out YM Obito>SM Naruto.

Correction: Future Obito bringing problems greater than the Kyuubi and going to destroy the future > SM Naruto

Spoiler

You know they were all sealed by the RDS right? Hashirama, Tobirama, and Hiruzen were all fighting the whole time according to that lore.

You cannot keep on doing this, dismissing statements just because they contradict your scaling. That's not how it works.

It would make sense. It depends if the sealed can act on their own in the belly of the Death God. But that would explain Edo Hiruzen coming back and comfortably mentally reacting to Juubito's attacks.

As ever means something is like that all the time, so Minato's speed is like that all the time.

Yes, however "as...as ever." is an expression that denotes normality. Hiruzen simply means it is not a surprise or it's not unusual for Minato to be fast this however does not deny the possibility for growth.

Weren't you just agreeing with me on Orochimaru>Sasuke? And does he really? The only things he's seen from Itachi has been him beating up random Uchiha and Tsukuyomi.

The comparisons to different forms is the precedence (and the statements I showed before). You don't need it to be explicitly stated that Minato is stronger as a Hokage. You just need superior scaling.

People comparing different variants with no implied difference is not an accurate scaling especially when said person possesses a space-time technique that's often confused with speed and is blatantly stated by the Databook to be the reason behind his phenomenal speed. FTG Minato can be compared with any Naruto that is too fast for the eye since the jutsu is essentially moving in 0 time.

Let's use an example. Say Teen Sasuke beats Kakashi, and Kakashi beats Kid Sasuke. You don't say Teen Sasuke is below Kakashi cause he lost to him at some point. We eliminate the contradiction by using this scale to assert he got stronger. The same applies for lots of situations, including Minato, just not in as simple and direct a fashion as that.

False equivalence yet again. Teen Sasuke has plenty of feats, explicit statements and outright narrative that hammers it down that Sasuke has grown stronger and surpassed Kakashi. Some of these feats/statements being relative or superior to characters scaling above Kakashi. Minato unfortunately has nothing holding even a fraction of that level of solid credibility. Vague comparisons are rarely valid scaling especially when alternate interpretations and explicit anti-statements exist.

Idk about him being perception blitzed. He had the MS active in that scene, and even 3T Kakashi can keep up with Rinnegan Obito pretty well. He was probably just massively outsped, not perception blitzed, especially since we see him raise his arms when KCM2 Naruto makes his entrance (I know they were raised in the page prior, but not to that level). Why do you think Kishimoto set up the scene so that Kakashi would have his MS activated, allowing him to perceive Naruto's speed more accurately and then having him mistake Naruto as Minato? Seems pretty arbitrary if not to show their relativity.

The very fact that Kakashi mistook Naruto for Minato shatters this argument. If he could have traced Naruto's movement he would have never mistaken him and confused him with his Master. Let alone the fact that the only reason Naruto was mistaken for Minato was because of the former's sudden burst in speed combined with the riled-up dust cloud obscuring vision and the fact that Naruto had developed a cloak. This once again, being in relation to FTG is a valid assertion given our other evidence.

It says he "dashes like a thunder" on that page. And it talks about the speed at which he kills enemies, or his combat speed. FTG is certainly part of his speed in combat, but it's not THE thing.

The entire databook page goes on commending his speed only for the page itself to acknowledge that his speed is thanks to a technique which is a space-time jutsu. So usage of other speed-related terms when it's not even speed is expected. Besides, the databook does not say Ay's speed is equal to Minato's combat speed or anything of the sort. So, it wouldn't help you even if I were to steel man you.

Wdym according to me It's pretty much a fact that he's at least relative to YM Obito, he literally matched him if not surpasses him in physical speed, and has his own broken space-time ninjutsu. Not to mention the fact that he injured Obito and forced him to flee, pretty much spelling out that he was stronger.

Nah, he actually implied it would be a tough battle for KCM2 Naruto, not a decisive win, as he said Naruto needed extraordinary strength (in this context meaning Nine Tails power) to stand against and hope to have any chance of defeating him.

And if you really wanna take it that route, I'd just argue it's referring to MKCM2 Naruto, who was stated to far surpass Minato and be the power Minato wanted him to have all along, which wouldn't contradict him being relative to KCM or KCM2 Naruto in speed. Heck, even if you say MKCM2 doesn't exist (it does) and it's just all KCM2, that's fine. Minato can be relative to KCM2 in speed but far inferior in AP/Durability especially with the Kurama Avatar, making him inferior overall, and a while ago now still fits cause the statement is made in 617 and he attained KCM2 in 571.

You can argue its KCM, mKCM, KCM2, mKCM2 or even freaking Baryon Mode all you want. Going by that route, I could simply argue that the guy has absolutely no idea where KCM2 would end up scaling. For all Minato knew, a mastered Kyuubi would simply be slightly stronger than YM Obito. He has no way to know how powerful of a jump Kyuubi will be but yeah, I have already proven that the statement is of a future Obito which is further confirmed by Naruto.

But why did he feel like Obito was superior to Pain? He said it himself. Because of Obito's performance against Minato, he wasn't an ordinary shinobi and was probably controlling Pain. He is very blatantly specifying that "back then," Obito had put up a really good fight against Minato, leading Minato to think he's using Pain. Idk how you can get more direct than that without literally saying "The Masked Man was stronger than Pain even 16 years ago."

An alternative interpretation is that he thought Obito was using Pain because:
1) He knew Obito was a member of the Akatsuki, he blatantly mentions this on-panel.
2) It was Pain who attacked the village this time, and Obito has a habit of manipulating big boys to destroy the leaf, as he did with Kurama 16 years ago.

So based on those details Minato reached the conclusion that Obito is stronger than Pain and is using him as a puppet, a puppet who can almost force 50% Kurama out. So it stands to reason that Obito, at the very worst, would require comparable strength to Kurama to be overwhelmed. When Minato said "back then", he is not mandatorily implying YM Obito was already stronger than Pain. All he is saying is that even 16 years ago he was strong enough to cause him issues, as in cause issues to someone stated weaker than PA Naruto if we go by statements.

Minato even refers to YM Obito in the past, so there's no way he can know and confidently assert that Obito is just as strong as he was back then 16 years later. He doesn't even have a reason to believe YM Obito is equal to a 16 year older Obito given Naruto's already impressive growth in less than 16 years, let alone someone who wants to bring terror to the world which I have proven by Minato, and later confirmed by Naruto. So in order to remain consistent with Fukusaku's statement, Minato suspected Obito is using Pain due to reasons 1 and 2, and is able to use him because he got much stronger over those 16 years, not because Minato > YM Obito ~ OM Obito >> Pain, which is contradicted by Fukusaku. This explanation requires fewer assumptions and is more consistent with the characters' statements.

I am indeed, how'd you figure? The Minato simping?

There are only 3 people I know who wanks Minato to this extent and two of them are incapable of coherent argumentation so, I had a good hunch already. What hammered it down even further was your debating style and arguments which were very familiar. It seems this isn't our second debate after all.

If Base Naruto<Minato, SM Naruto<SM Minato because they both have Perfect Toad SM, the same amp, the only difference being that Minato's lasts shorter. And considering the context, Fukasaku would be referring to SM Minato, sooooo yeah it doesn't really work.

Unlikely, the parallel put up by the manga shows an Hokage Minato not SM Minato. Besides, Fukasaku made the comment after seeing SM Naruto's performance in battle and Minato admits he never used it in battle. So yeah, there's more reason to believe Fukasaku's referring to Base Minato and SM Naruto.

But I don't have any problem agreeing with that. Afterall, the only reason we can't put Base Naruto over Minato is due to the lack of feats not the existence of contradictory ones. So, if Fukasaku was referring to SM Minato, then by reverse scaling, we can put Base Minato inferior to Post-SM training Base Naruto.

 

[Damage3245]

Wow, I've not seen Walls of Text like that in a while...

 

[Godernet]

this is the most I've ever seen someone work to get a likely rating removed.

Honestly feel like Minato's current rating is fine.

Minato's H7A Rating comes from being stronger than Orochimaru and Old Hiruzen(which he is). His possibly H7A+ rating comes from there being a lot of room for interpretation in his lore and the people he should have been stronger than.

Hiruzen being the strongest Kage in Part 1 should also mean he's stronger than Part 1 Ay and Perfect Jinchuuriki Yagura(They were still considered the Blood Mist Village in Part 1 and Zabuza was working as a mercenary to gain funds to try killing Yagura so yeah Yagura was Mizukage in Part 1).

Minato is stated a few times to be stronger than a younger Hiruzen so him being stronger than Yagura, Part 1 Ay, and potentially a Perfect Jinchuuriki Bee is a strong possibility(if Bee had Gyuki tamed at the time which is very likely)

Given that we don't know the full strength of the people he fought at the time that he fought them I think the possibly rating is justified. There's plenty of lore and statements to support both sides.

 

[Deceived3596]

I honestly lost you. Where does Fukasaku factor into this? The statement you brought up talks of IA Naruto though. Not SM.

The statement you brought blatantly says 'The Fourth Hokage's power'. They did not say battle power or combat strength. Power generally means whatever is in their arsenal. You'd have to prove that when they talked of power, it was strictly referring to Base.

Contradictory feats? Lack of feats? Conflicting statements etc. Generally, statements such as those aren't supposed to be taken at face value so no without further context. You are well aware that's against wiki standards.

My interpretation is correct. Withstand means to be unscathed by so not withstand would mean to be damaged but getting a scratch would also count as damage.

Evidence that he tanked the TBB?

Spoiler

Looking at the prior page we can see that the direction of the bijuu Bomb isn't directly at Pain who still has his arm stretched. It is likely he used Shinra Tensei to deflect the bijuu bomb. He was likely somewhere at the edge for if he was really at the brunt of it, his clothes should have completely burned away at the very least even if he isn't damaged considering we see Paper bombs were enough to taint Obito's clothes.

Because the bolded statements are always hyperbolic.

Have corroborating feats. Have some knowledgeable characters in the manga affirm.

You misunderstand. Hyperbolic doesn't mean wrong or invalid. It just means exaggerated. RS is a powerful jutsu but at the same time, it needs more than a databook statement that too one that's more credible. Non-hyperbolic statements of similar nature have elucidation on why this technique or jutsu is the most powerful or unbeatable.

Hashirama and Madara have been referenced all the way back as Part-1. Even the legendary Sage of the Six Paths had been referred prior so yeah, nope. Kakashi and Naruto's statements during IA are made before SM and lack knowledge of characters like Pain and Obito. The Databook statement, unfortunately, doesn't aid you either for we see in the future, multiple shinobi surpass Minato and grow stronger.

But even then the statement fails to support you. I ask you to read the databook statement carefully. It only claims that Naruto is the only shinobi who can surpass Minato, this however doesn't mean Minato is stronger than any other shinobi introduced at the time. I don't see how you got such a strange interpretation. The statement clearly refers to shinobi who are weaker than Minato at the time and among them, Naruto is the only one who can surpass him. This however does not account for shinobi at that time who are already stronger than Minato. Because the statement is only in reference to having the ability to exceed.

Besides, the statement is from the 3rd Databook, I assume. The Databooks work with the information provided in the manga for the chapters it covers. It doesn't go for future information beyond the designated chapters. By the making of Databook III, they won't have information of Obito or the full capabilities of Pain. So, they might have very well been speaking with everything shown about those characters until then and not any feats they showcase in the future which might put them at a higher level.

False equivalence. Hashirama for starters never had anti-statements to his power. Edo Hashirama came back and still proved superior to 99% of the verse in a nerfed state at that. Even the flashback of a Prime Hashirama gives him feats that nearly none in the world can hold a candle to. Unfortunately, this is not the case for Minato who has contradictory statements and whose flashbacks don't put him anywhere near the level you are proposing.

Once again, Hyperbole=/= wrong. Because he most definitely would have heard legends about them. Besides the entire world including the Kages were frightened by the name Madara and went off to war because of it. Tsunade even highlights that name itself was power. Madara had already established a powerful reputation that chilled the world to its bone. Unfortunately, Minato has nowhere near the hype or portrayal contending that.

Exactly. They are independent but interconnected assertions to build up Minato. They aren't all referring to his power. The final one, "Even with all his power" can be also thought of as an acknowledgment that Minato's power is great but great does mean unreach(able/ed) or unsurpass(able/ed).

This doesn't help you either. If he was only judging based on action and power, he would have immense respect for those like Madara. You don't think that, do you? The finer statement means Minato is greater as a concept, don't try to twist it up or I'll be forced to do another CRT declaring Itachi>Hashirama. A4 obviously respects Minato and the power he boasts. I never said Minato is weak or a loser but arguing that means Minato is the most powerful is a stretch.

No, if he's subjective, it means he's not looking at it from an objective viewpoint. Being subjective implies he can be wrong in even his own knowledge. Because 'making someone think' or 'making it seem' doesn't necessitate 'actually being'. I could 'think' the strange figure in my dark room is a demon but looking at it objectively, it's likely to be a coat rack taking that form in the darkness. Being subjective takes a great hit to its veracity.

You'd have to prove that there was any relevance to him thinking of that. It might have simply been what came to Naruto's head at that point. Nothing more, nothing less.

Double standards much? If you can confidently claim Naruto surpassed Tsunade and Hiruzen then going by that vein, I can also claim as per the evidence I have posted, Naruto surpassed Minato as well and was likely referring to Hashirama who was superior to Madara whom Minato himself accepts was a significant trouble for and who has threatened the entire world into a war.

This is not accounting for the fact that the statement is blatantly contradicted. Naruto surpassed Tsunade which you yourself just claimed. Yet Naruto wasn't declared Hokage. Even when Tsunade went into a coma, the Hokage candidates were Kakashi and Danzo, two other people of varying power standing. Even after Danzo's death, Naruto's name wasn't even mentioned once and they were fully ready to appoint Kakashi as the 6th. Okay, let's leave that. Post War, Tsunade relinquishes her position, do I need to tell you who took that mantle when two unbelievably strong re-incarnations of Ninja Gods were present within the village?

This proves that you need to be more than just the strongest to be appointed Hokage. If my memory serves me right, Naruto was tasked to study the various shinobi system and the fundamentals of running the village before he can be eligible to take up that mantle. Something identical can be argued for Kushina as well who might be stronger than Minato but lacking in other aspects to become Hokage. Naruto only saying that he has to become more powerful than his mother but makes nothing similar of his father serves to drive this point even further.

One cannot draw a comparison between two people's reactions and nerve transmission by simply hearing stories of one or both. Once again, you are casting unfounded doubt on an explicit statement that we have no reason to believe is incorrect.

What makes you so certain he wasn't fighting in the war at those ages? He could have simply been a precocious shinobi sent to the battlefield due to a personnel shortage. Or he could have simply been a young lad commuting between villages when he happened upon Minato. Or it could be an LoW situation where Genin C and his team were dispatched on what was thought to be a D-rank mission that turned A or S-rank. Multiple ways exist he could have acquired that knowledge but what remains inarguably true is that he possesses it and he made an explicit comment based on that.

Its only suspect to Minato wankers. The author never went on to call or imply that Cee was an unreliable person instead he had the databook hype him up to be the brains behind Raikage's group and an all-around rational intellectual. You are trying hard to dismiss the statement but unless you can provide solid proof no matter how much you try this will remain true.

Once again, false equivalence. Tsunade has shown the ability to use her expert chakra control on her fists to enhance her strength. Minato and A4 don't have anything similar for their speed other than FTG and RCM. Nerve transmission is fundamental to movement. Why do you think some people are faster than you, why do you think some people can dodge or physically react better? Its because their nerve conduction is faster than yours. Other factors that determine movement are genetics, body type, muscle fibers etc. We lack any information on these factors to determine if Minato has any advantage in any of these. If anything, A4 who was stated to have a strong lineage by Minato himself and a more muscular and well-built body would have more basis to assume a greater speed than Minato.

Spoiler

A Quick Look at Reflexes - Health Encyclopedia - University of Rochester Medical Center

www.urmc.rochester.edu

That's not an interpretation I disagree with, actually. Minato is a talented shinobi so if he were not to die that day, him being stronger than A4 is quite obvious atleast in my opinion but alas, he did not survive and due to that A4 got 17 years to close and surpass that gap. My interpretation is pretty sound if you ask me. He only said that there has been no shinobi faster than him ever since the fourth died, which is a valid statement. No one faster (in his knowledge) came around. A4 growing faster during that time would have little to no bearing on that statement.

Unknown=/=insufficient/unreliable. You also conveniently omitted that my CRT contains explicit statements that the author never even hinted were incorrect.

You got me here. I concede.

That does not prove he did not grow faster though. Since Dodai doesn't deny that possibility. You yourself stated that you don't need explicit statements to suggest that a character grew stronger.

Bijuu hosted by Jinchuuriki who can utilize their power are stronger than just wild bijuu or hosts without control.

Spoiler

It isn't contradicting. I actually conform with your claim that fighting makes one stronger. The problem is you cannot quantify how much Minato fought or how many he fought. You cannot gauge the difference between the Hokage and Jonin. But that's not the case with A3, he went from potentially weaker than Minato to contending with KCM Naruto so we have a good scaling between the two variants.

But even in the event, I wasn't of this opinion. There's still nothing that suggests A3 is inferior to Minato except that finer statement you have brought up, which I have sufficiently debunked. The other one also doesn't imply Minato is faster than A3.

Spoiler

"Ever since..." still leaves the possibility of a shinobi faster than Minato to exist before him and A3 could be that shinobi. So, the scaling would be:
A3>Young Minato>Young A4 but A3 died before Minato so A4 wouldn't be wrong.


That can be easily explained as a coordinated attack. If A4 had moved in faster than Tsunade and taken down Mu, Madara would have reacted to that and guarded himself better and might have even counterattacked. To preserve the element of surprise granted by their dramatic arrival, they chose to attack together and that was the best option as Madara as well as Mu were knocked back.

Fighting is not the only way to grow stronger.

That's true, I was mistaken about the timeline. But again, that doesn't mean much as she doesn't need to have the same speed to help. She could help in other ways like shattering the ground beneath them making it harder for them to move around. All she would need to do is keep up with them.

Again, doesn't require the same raw speed to do something. Just need to be comparable or able to sufficiently react to their speed. That could even be Tsunade's obligation to Naruto speaking than her confidence to face A4.

But maybe I am a bit dense but I don't see where you are going with this. I had already proved the databook statement doesn't put Minato above Orochimaru. They can all be relative. It would make sense also since the person Minato wants to fight is Jiraya which means he believes his master to at least be of some challenge to him.

Spoiler

Do you have any other statement other than the Databook and Anko's assertion putting Minato over the Saanin?

Or Tobirama teleported them here.

Forgot about the Gyuki mark again?

Spoiler

Its a funny thing also. Kishimoto's attention to certain details is truly impeccable.

Spoiler

Isn't it the most incredible? The Juubi Bomb gets teleported away right in front Gyuki, the same person Minato had marked decades ago.

That can be easily re-interpreted to mean V1 Ay's speed=Hokage MInato's Shunshin as averred previously.

Proven wrong by Bee and Pa.

Do not compound me with your wank takes, Alan.

'The Yellow Flash' is a moniker given to Minato. Being Hokage doesn't magically make that title disappear. The burden would be on you to prove if you think that's the case. Especially when Hiruzen has been called The Professor, God of Shinobi and The Third all interchangeably.

That's contradicted by B, C and F's explicit statements from the manga so, no, it doesn't fit the manga. A safer assumption would be Hokage Minato shunshin (the fastest Minato he could have fought) to V1 Ay speed (the variant shown). My interpretation doesn't have B, C and F being any wrong. They are credible sources whom the author hadn't even hinted are unreliable. This requires the least assumptions and is more consistent with manga information. Unlike you, I don't have characters that contradict my scaling declared unreliable without good reason. You also have yet to quantify the difference between Jonin and Hokage Minato.

Quantifiers such as 'speed speed' are fanfic restrictions that you yourself are applying. The databook simply calls it a high-speed technique that's a part of the the users speed. Unless you can prove that the book was talking about the speed outside of Shunshin, I have no reason to believe you.


There might be a special context or implication for such an answer. Or you might be interpreting it wrong, just like you and I have differences in how we interpret the databook statements in Naruto. I don't even read DB. But regardless this is not DB, what may apply in that verse may not necessarily apply here.



If that was reasonable, the author wouldn't draw of a visual parallel of Naruto dodging with Shunshin while Minato with FTG. If he wanted to imply physical speed, it would have been just as easy enough for Kishimoto to draw Minato outrunning physically. Seems rather redundant, doesn't it? The author goes through the trouble of drawing Minato dodging via FTG and then goes on to draw a parallel to that with KCM Naruto outrunning via Shunshin just to have the two people commenting on it who were also in the flashback talk of a completely different time when Minato apparently outran him with speed.

The flashback was shown to the reader specifically to draw the parallel between KCM Naruto speed and Minato FTG. The word "outrun" is used in reference to someone outdoing his top speed, whether they did that through pure speed or teleportation the flashback doesn't discriminate. Minato also never showed V2 + speeds. Even steel manning your interpretation of the databook statement, it says he is V1 level and he could not blitz Base Bee.

Naruto being called a savior doesn't serve much for his speed. You are forgetting that Teleportation is often confused with speed and people have the tendency to use it interchangeably. Even the 2nd Databook calls his technique that of super speed despite it on the very same page recognizing it as a space-time technique.

I felt a little odd about this statement so, I asked around and ran it through multiple online translators and ended up with the word dodge/escape/evade/avoid never outran. This is the DeepL translation.

このワシの最速パンチをかわしたのはお前で二人目だ
You're the second person to dodge my fastest punch.


Well if this Yellow Flash you speak of had notable flash step/speed feats and did not possess a jutsu that is often confused with speed and did not have the databook claiming that his alias and speed are all thanks to said jutsu then yes. But since this all is undeniably true, it doesn't.

Your scaling included statements from the IA and the Third Databook that has no bearing on SM Naruto.

How much? Does he know him in combat prowess? If I am not wrong Suigetsu was there as a lab rat so at most he would have seen Orochimaru when the man was experimenting on him. Do you have any evidence to assume? I might sound hypocritical but just using your own logic here.

Proof he barely knows anything about Minato. The databook clearly portrays him as the brains of the group and the author never once hinted him as being unknowledgeable. You'd be going against the manga here. Mind you, at the end of the day the one who drew C and wrote that statement in that thought bubble was the man himself — Kishimoto who never bothered to state Cee was wrong so you'd be capping to dismiss his statement.

Based on what? Yet Bee knows of a Hokage Minato as per the man himself.

Once again, Pa is shown to be a sensible man or rather a toad and he has never been stated or implied to be incorrect. For Gamabunta to ask if Naruto reminds him of the two (Jiraya and Minato) and Fukasaku to confidently assert that Naruto has surpassed them, he must have had knowledge of him. As I said, their statement remains apodictic the finer details as to how exactly can be filled in with different assumptions.

This doesn't necessarily work. First, you'd have to prove the gaps between CM2, CM1, 3T Hebi and 3T Taka are massive.

Second, it could simply be that CM1 and CM2 Sasuke generally scale above Orochimaru. If you refer to your own scan, and as you yourself claim in the quoted, about Orochimaru by Suigetsu, he states that Sasuke could only beat him because his arms were sealed. This could imply Orochimaru with access to his vast arsenal of crazy and powerful ninjutsu would be able to put such a Sasuke down but otherwise can't. Moreover, it doesn't mean with ease either, it can also mean Sasuke would have stalemated Orochimaru or that the latter would win extreme-diff.

Spoiler

Younger Hiruzen being above Orochimaru is a misled claim. If you read the scan, the context is clear that he's stating that in reference to having the strength to pull Orochimaru's soul out. But even if I were to steelman you, it wouldn't mean much as the gap between this Orochimaru and 10 years younger Hiruzen been very small but enough to give him the win.

I assume Minato>Younger Hiruzen is from the Databook that claims the strongest Shinobi is the Hokage. I'll continue addressing that here even though its blatantly contradicted. Plenty of interpretations of that statement exist lol.

• The gap between Minato and Hiruzen might be very, very small, they could even be relative with Minato holding a slightly upper edge which would be more than enough to grant him victory. This would not contradict the Databook statement.
• Minato and that young Hiruzen could even be equals with Hiruzen passing on the torch since he believes it's time for the next generation to take over.
• It could even be Minato was stronger than Hiruzen but in the two years Minato was dead, Hiruzen grew stronger as well.

As I said a number of interpretations are possible.

Hiruzen also claims that the main reason he couldn't select Orochimaru as the fourth was because of his ideals not that he believed he lacked power to do it. But this is a minor supporting point.

Spoiler

Oh and there's no reason Bee couldn't have been thinking of MS Taka Sasuke. Sasuke had brought out his MS to genjutsu Bee and the man goes BM soon after breaking so, he could also have gone BM realizing the threat of the MS. If he had the power of the MS in his mind while going BM which is likely because he immediately did it, the statement would be referring to MS Sasuke.


I am gonna need more context on this. Can you link the YT video from which this is taken? My counter can change depending on the context.

But let's say this is objectively true. Can you quantify this difference? Him becoming stronger could also mean he went from 42 to 43 points. That would still be valid to call himself stronger.

Does A4 imply that they only fought during the war?

Based on what? Nice headcanon about the pictures, didn't know Minato was a model. A4 and Bee have been never noted to meet Minato outside battles. Prove that it was from a meeting. But even if I were to concede to that claim, it wouldn't change much since a meeting that had Minato boast a serious face with his signature Kunai around him and holding the Rasengan in a battle stance is a meeting gone south.

Incorrect. He failed to recognize the Rasengan from its name. It simply suggests that he either forgot or didn't know what the jutsu's name was. Because immediately after Naruto claims the jutsu was created by the fourth, he recounts that Minato with the Rasengan. Initially, he wasn't sure if his jutsu was similar to the TBB or not and then after hearing the Fourth's name, he became sure of it. You are literally arguing with the manga.

Do you know if he respected A4's wishes and stayed considering this is the same guy who tricked his village into thinking he was abducted by the Akatsuki just so that he could get some breather? What if he was dispatched on a mission that required his expertise and skill? But more so, what makes you think he needs to go out of the village to fight Minato? What if some dangerous mission brought Minato close to the Cloud village and Bee went along with A4 in an attempt to protect the village? This wouldn't count as leaving the village either. He could have even witnessed them fight from the border of the village.

Bee remembering Hokage Minato is apodictic. You cannot refute that. We can only make assumptions about how they met but their encounter remains absolute.

It doesn't mean whatever mode or power that Naruto uses to defeat said Obito would be same as Minato's power level either.

He's making the judgment out of YM and scaling it to a stronger Obito. If he believed mastering the Kyuubi only made him barely strong enough to face YM Obito then he most definitely wouldn't be any confident Naruto could face a stronger Obito. Minato as you said doesn't know how much stronger Obito would get or even if he would thus, Minato being a smart man would play it safe and prefer Naruto master it completely so that he could face against Obito in the event that he did grow stronger and he wasn't wrong. The man would go on to get the Rinnegan and soon the Juubi itself.

The manga and the author disagree by virtue of not portraying Fukasaku as an unreliable source. And its 100 to 0, mind you. Naruto's showing against Asura Path combined with Gamabunta's question (which refers to the two in general and not in any specific stat or status such as AP or Sagehood) followed by Fukasaku's agreement and internal monologue leaves no room for any other interpretation than overall ability.

Baseless.

Correction: Future Obito bringing problems greater than the Kyuubi and going to destroy the future > SM Naruto

Spoiler

You cannot keep on doing this, dismissing statements just because they contradict your scaling. That's not how it works.

It would make sense. It depends if the sealed can act on their own in the belly of the Death God. But that would explain Edo Hiruzen coming back and comfortably mentally reacting to Juubito's attacks.

Yes, however "as...as ever." is an expression that denotes normality. Hiruzen simply means it is not a surprise or it's not unusual for Minato to be fast this however does not deny the possibility for growth.

People comparing different variants with no implied difference is not an accurate scaling especially when said person possesses a space-time technique that's often confused with speed and is blatantly stated by the Databook to be the reason behind his phenomenal speed. FTG Minato can be compared with any Naruto that is too fast for the eye since the jutsu is essentially moving in 0 time.

False equivalence yet again. Teen Sasuke has plenty of feats, explicit statements and outright narrative that hammers it down that Sasuke has grown stronger and surpassed Kakashi. Some of these feats/statements being relative or superior to characters scaling above Kakashi. Minato unfortunately has nothing holding even a fraction of that level of solid credibility. Vague comparisons are rarely valid scaling especially when alternate interpretations and explicit anti-statements exist.

The very fact that Kakashi mistook Naruto for Minato shatters this argument. If he could have traced Naruto's movement he would have never mistaken him and confused him with his Master. Let alone the fact that the only reason Naruto was mistaken for Minato was because of the former's sudden burst in speed combined with the riled-up dust cloud obscuring vision and the fact that Naruto had developed a cloak. This once again, being in relation to FTG is a valid assertion given our other evidence.

The entire databook page goes on commending his speed only for the page itself to acknowledge that his speed is thanks to a technique which is a space-time jutsu. So usage of other speed-related terms when it's not even speed is expected. Besides, the databook does not say Ay's speed is equal to Minato's combat speed or anything of the sort. So, it wouldn't help you even if I were to steel man you.

You can argue its KCM, mKCM, KCM2, mKCM2 or even freaking Baryon Mode all you want. Going by that route, I could simply argue that the guy has absolutely no idea where KCM2 would end up scaling. For all Minato knew, a mastered Kyuubi would simply be slightly stronger than YM Obito. He has no way to know how powerful of a jump Kyuubi will be but yeah, I have already proven that the statement is of a future Obito which is further confirmed by Naruto.

An alternative interpretation is that he thought Obito was using Pain because:
1) He knew Obito was a member of the Akatsuki, he blatantly mentions this on-panel.
2) It was Pain who attacked the village this time, and Obito has a habit of manipulating big boys to destroy the leaf, as he did with Kurama 16 years ago.

So based on those details Minato reached the conclusion that Obito is stronger than Pain and is using him as a puppet, a puppet who can almost force 50% Kurama out. So it stands to reason that Obito, at the very worst, would require comparable strength to Kurama to be overwhelmed. When Minato said "back then", he is not mandatorily implying YM Obito was already stronger than Pain. All he is saying is that even 16 years ago he was strong enough to cause him issues, as in cause issues to someone stated weaker than PA Naruto if we go by statements.

Minato even refers to YM Obito in the past, so there's no way he can know and confidently assert that Obito is just as strong as he was back then 16 years later. He doesn't even have a reason to believe YM Obito is equal to a 16 year older Obito given Naruto's already impressive growth in less than 16 years, let alone someone who wants to bring terror to the world which I have proven by Minato, and later confirmed by Naruto. So in order to remain consistent with Fukusaku's statement, Minato suspected Obito is using Pain due to reasons 1 and 2, and is able to use him because he got much stronger over those 16 years, not because Minato > YM Obito ~ OM Obito >> Pain, which is contradicted by Fukusaku. This explanation requires fewer assumptions and is more consistent with the characters' statements.


There are only 3 people I know who wanks Minato to this extent and two of them are incapable of coherent argumentation so, I had a good hunch already. What hammered it down even further was your debating style and arguments which were very familiar. It seems this isn't our second debate after all.

Unlikely, the parallel put up by the manga shows an Hokage Minato not SM Minato. Besides, Fukasaku made the comment after seeing SM Naruto's performance in battle and Minato admits he never used it in battle. So yeah, there's more reason to believe Fukasaku's referring to Base Minato and SM Naruto.

But I don't have any problem agreeing with that. Afterall, the only reason we can't put Base Naruto over Minato is due to the lack of feats not the existence of contradictory ones. So, if Fukasaku was referring to SM Minato, then by reverse scaling, we can put Base Minato inferior to Post-SM training Base Naruto.

 

[Shadow_Somnius]

Wow, I've not seen Walls of Text like that in a while...

Since Goku has revealed himself to be Alan, this debate has been sealed to a fate of a never-ending one. So, I ask you to tag a few staff so that the evaluation can actually take place. If they have any doubts, they can enquire and I'll do my best to give an appropriate answer.

 

[Godernet]

Since Goku has revealed himself to be Alan, this debate has been sealed to a fate of a never-ending one. So, I ask you to tag a few staff so that the evaluation can actually take place. If they have any doubts, they can enquire and I'll do my best to give an appropriate answer.

What do you want to change the current rating to? Putting that in the OP will help staff get a better idea of what you're suggesting.

If I understand correctly, you believe he should scale relative, but inferior to Sage Mode Pre-War Arc Naruto's H7A rating. So you're pretty much wanting to get rid of his possibly H7A+ scaling to Full Power V2 Ay and KCM Naruto.

 

[Shadow_Somnius]

What do you want to change the current rating to? Putting that in the OP will help staff get a better idea of what you're suggesting.

If I understand correctly, you believe he should scale relative, but inferior to Sage Mode Pre-War Arc Naruto's H7A rating. So you're pretty much wanting to get rid of his possibly H7A+ scaling to Full Power V2 Ay and KCM Naruto.

Correct. I am not that familiar with lower-level ratings especially revolving around Naruto. I thought the way I did it would be fine since I previously saw a thread scaling the founders above Juubito and Hagoromo nearly the same way.

 

[Arkenis]

disagree

 

[karzen]

Disagree.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Correct. I am not that familiar with lower-level ratings especially revolving around Naruto. I thought the way I did it would be fine since I previously saw a thread scaling the founders above Juubito and Hagoromo nearly the same way.

Before I respond to your main text, I'm just gonna put it out there that regardless of your opinions on Minato's higher (or to be honest, middling) scalings, do you really think they're so outlandish and implausible despite the vast preponderance of evidence for it (you've seen just a glimpse of it in what I've shown so far, there's far more to be had if we continue this) that it doesn't even warrant a possibly rating? It's not a full rating, it's not most likely, hell, it's not even likely, just possibly, which it is. The conservative scaling for Minato that you outlined a little while ago (Minato~>Orochimaru>Taka Sasuke) is technically already implemented as Minato's main rating. The Ay stuff is just a bonus.

A majority of regular members disagree with this, 1 staff disagrees (Shadowbokunohero has expressed thinking that Minato~KCM Naruto), Damage hasn't really expressed an opinion either way, and I'm fairly sure that more staff would disagree than agree if you pinged all the Naruto supports (could be wrong but I'm js, Minato's ability is highly respected across the Naruto community). The way things are going, it seems like a lot of time is gonna be spent wasted for nothing, and even if it's successful, it's not gonna make much of a difference, just removes a possibly +. I wouldn't be saying this if there was a significant difference between the current and proposed rating or there was more staff support, but I'm just being honest. I really don't think it's worth it, unless Minato not possibly being as strong as his rival is such a great matter of importance. Also I will if necessary, but I'm not particularly keen on continuing this debate till the end of time.

 

[Godernet]

Stop attacking my hubby Minato

translation

 

[Godernet]

I mostly agree with Sparkle's sentiments,

Not to mention in the (hopefully near future) there's going to be a Bijuu + Sannin Tier characters AP revision that will likely change a lot of character ratings Minato and Sage Naruto included.

Whenever US69 returns from Valhalla or someone else is ready to dedicate the time to doing it.

 

[Arkenis]

1. This point is a bit vague on what Pa could be talking about, from the scene, Pa makes the statement from seeing Naruto take out one of the Paths, but if he's saying this due to Naruto being superior in ap or speed is up in the air and the other frog states that he's reminded of Minato and Jiraiya by Naruto, which is mainly from how Naruto's acting (being protective, taking charge during a crisis). It's kinda smart from Kishimoto to add this statement while Naruto is in sage mode though, so at the very least what he could be saying is that "Wow in Sage Mode Naruto's surpassed his predecessors!" which from the story its made clear he's surpassed Jiraiya but with Minato this statement isn't enough and is kinda contradicted later by statements and parts of the story i.e Minato stating Obito is a formidable opponent and requiring the nine tails power to beat, the same guy he beat. It wouldn't make sense if Minato was below that power but thinks it's needed to beat Obito. So yeah disagree with the first point

C states that Base A4 is now comparable to Minato and V1 A4 is far higher.

Spoiler

V1 A4 was previously relative to Minato and now he has grown strong enough that his Base is what is comparable with Minato's.

2. Even accepting C's statement, this only refers to reaction speed, not teleportation jutsu, which Minato is known for making him so fast. This also isn't base Ay, it's V1. My issue with taking C's statement as fact would also mean that Jugo, Suigetsu, Darui and 3T Sasuke all now scale to Minato, if we're saying that we're also saying they now scale to Hokage Minato in speed, someone who's superior to Orochimaru and Hiruzen, which is a terrible form of scaling that I don't think I have to explain.

The only way we can even remedy that is to say Minato got faster as a Hokage but as someone pointed out, his Kage position was very short, and we can also dismiss him becoming faster as a Hokage since being a Hokage means he has more work to do in the village and less time to train which makes the argument of him getting faster weaker (if it was proposed). This is another point I disagree with, not simply due to the statement but because of the line of scaling it would lead to that isn't portrayed in the story at all.

Bee believes that a virgin MS Sasuke is comparable to Minato.

Spoiler

Now, this is technically a mistranslation. The original roughly says that Sasuke could probably compete for the no.1 or no.2 position. Seems to be a Japanese expression. The point of accentuation is that Bee seriously believes that a Virgin MS Sasuke put up a performance that rivals even Minato's.

3. Does the Japanese trans leave out the "toughest fellow" part? What does it say, would be nice if u posted that instead, can't really comment on this but it isn't a strong argument depending on the raw

 

[MinatoSparkle]

translation

Don't make my husband sadder or I'll have to pull out the big guns

Fixed that for you

 

[Shadow_Somnius]

Before I respond to your main text, I'm just gonna put it out there that regardless of your opinions on Minato's higher (or to be honest, middling) scalings, do you really think they're so outlandish and implausible despite the vast preponderance of evidence for it (you've seen just a glimpse of it in what I've shown so far, there's far more to be had if we continue this) that it doesn't even warrant a possibly rating? It's not a full rating, it's not most likely, hell, it's not even likely, just possibly, which it is. The conservative scaling for Minato that you outlined a little while ago (Minato~>Orochimaru>Taka Sasuke) is technically already implemented as Minato's main rating. The Ay stuff is just a bonus.

Dude your main evidence relied on outdated databook statements and manga statements that can have alternate interpretation to have it logically consistent with the other more explicit set of evidences.

A majority of regular members disagree with this, 1 staff disagrees (Shadowbokunohero has expressed thinking that Minato~KCM Naruto), Damage hasn't really expressed an opinion either way, and I'm fairly sure that more staff would disagree than agree if you pinged all the Naruto supports (could be wrong but I'm js, Minato's ability is highly respected across the Naruto community). The way things are going, it seems like a lot of time is gonna be spent wasted for nothing, and even if it's successful, it's not gonna make much of a difference, just removes a possibly +. I wouldn't be saying this if there was a significant difference between the current and proposed rating or there was more staff support, but I'm just being honest. I really don't think it's worth it, unless Minato not possibly being as strong as his rival is such a great matter of importance. Also I will if necessary, but I'm not particularly keen on continuing this debate till the end of time.

I'll be honest and say that this CRT was more of a test. I did realize that even if it was accepted, there wouldn't be that large of a difference. But I did wanna have first hand experience on how things proceeded which was the man reason behind the making of this CRT. But since I made it and already went this far, I don't think it would be right for me to back down now. I have no problem continuing my debate with you but like last time, I am not really keen on writing walls of text and extending this thread to multiple pages just with our back and forth either as it would make it more difficult for the staff to evaluate.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Dude your main evidence relied on outdated databook statements and manga statements that can have alternate interpretation to have it logically consistent with the other more explicit set of evidences.

I don't see why the fact that my argument is based mostly on statements is invalid when Minato is only on screen for a small portion of the series? And I can say a similar thing in the reverse but we're not getting anywhere by bickering on this.

I'll be honest and say that this CRT was more of a test. I did realize that even if it was accepted, there wouldn't be that large of a difference. But I did wanna have first hand experience on how things proceeded which was the man reason behind the making of this CRT. But since I made it and already went this far, I don't think it would be right for me to back down now. I have no problem continuing my debate with you but like last time, I am not really keen on writing walls of text and extending this thread to multiple pages just with our back and forth either as it would make it more difficult for the staff to evaluate.

Learning to pick battles is important. I can't tell you how often I've made a CRT and realized it was never gonna go anywhere after a certain point.

Maybe we should just pause our specific debate and wait for staff to give input.

 

[Shadow_Somnius]

1. This point is a bit vague on what Pa could be talking about, from the scene, Pa makes the statement from seeing Naruto take out one of the Paths, but if he's saying this due to Naruto being superior in ap or speed is up in the air and the other frog states that he's reminded of Minato and Jiraiya by Naruto, which is mainly from how Naruto's acting (being protective, taking charge during a crisis). It's kinda smart from Kishimoto to add this statement while Naruto is in sage mode though, so at the very least what he could be saying is that "Wow in Sage Mode Naruto's surpassed his predecessors!" which from the story its made clear he's surpassed Jiraiya but with Minato this statement isn't enough and is kinda contradicted later by statements and parts of the story i.e Minato stating Obito is a formidable opponent and requiring the nine tails power to beat, the same guy he beat. It wouldn't make sense if Minato was below that power but thinks it's needed to beat Obito. So yeah disagree with the first point

That's what I said myself. SM Naruto>Minato. It would make no sense for Fukasaku to talk of something very specific like AP or SM in response to Fukasaku's very general statement. And it makes no sense to believe he is saying that Naruto surpassed his predecessors in the act of protecting lol.

I had resolved Obito very neatly I believe. I addressed it here:

In their encounter, Minato praised and was worried about Obito's future deeds for multiple reasons: his ability to infiltrate konoha without detection, his identity as madara uchiha, his ability to unseal & control the nine tails and nearly destroy the village, his space time abilities, and his "dangerous ideology"

Spoiler

And as obito insinuates above, we see Minato acknowledge that there's obviously more at play, a plan, and the means for obito, leading minato to state verbatim that if he doesn't stop obito now, they'd have even bigger problems than the nine tails in the future:

Spoiler

So, its likely that he meant that Naruto would require the nine-tails to fight an Obito who's an even greater threat and would make sense of his sacrifice as well.

An alternative interpretation is that he thought Obito was using Pain because:
1) He knew Obito was a member of the Akatsuki, he blatantly mentions this on-panel.
2) It was Pain who attacked the village this time, and Obito has a habit of manipulating big boys to destroy the leaf, as he did with Kurama 16 years ago.

So based on those details Minato reached the conclusion that Obito is stronger than Pain and is using him as a puppet, a puppet who can almost force 50% Kurama out. So it stands to reason that Obito, at the very worst, would require comparable strength to Kurama to be overwhelmed. When Minato said "back then", he is not mandatorily implying YM Obito was already stronger than Pain. All he is saying is that even 16 years ago he was strong enough to cause him issues, as in cause issues to someone stated weaker than PA Naruto if we go by statements.

Minato even refers to YM Obito in the past, so there's no way he can know and confidently assert that Obito is just as strong as he was back then 16 years later. He doesn't even have a reason to believe YM Obito is equal to a 16 year older Obito given Naruto's already impressive growth in less than 16 years, let alone someone who wants to bring terror to the world which I have proven by Minato, and later confirmed by Naruto. So in order to remain consistent with Fukusaku's statement, Minato suspected Obito is using Pain due to reasons 1 and 2, and is able to use him because he got much stronger over those 16 years, not because Minato > YM Obito ~ OM Obito >> Pain, which is contradicted by Fukusaku. This explanation requires fewer assumptions and is more consistent with the characters' statements.

2. Even accepting C's statement, this only refers to reaction speed, not teleportation jutsu, which Minato is known for making him so fast.

I didn't say that it refers to his teleportation jutsu though..

This also isn't base Ay, it's V1. My issue with taking C's statement as fact would also mean that Jugo, Suigetsu, Darui and 3T Sasuke all now scale to Minato, if we're saying that we're also saying they now scale to Hokage Minato in speed, someone who's superior to Orochimaru and Hiruzen, which is a terrible form of scaling that I don't think I have to explain.

The only way we can even remedy that is to say Minato got faster as a Hokage but as someone pointed out, his Kage position was very short, and we can also dismiss him becoming faster as a Hokage since being a Hokage means he has more work to do in the village and less time to train which makes the argument of him getting faster weaker (if it was proposed). This is another point I disagree with, not simply due to the statement but because of the line of scaling it would lead to that isn't portrayed in the story at all.

I don't really see why not. I mean dismissing an explicit statement just because they contradict a preconceived scaling is not right. I had proposed multiple interpretations of the concerned statements that put Minato very close to Orochimaru and Hiruzen. Besides, if memory serves me right, those 3 had done the bear minimum to keep up with his speed and that's all they did, barely keep up with his hand speed, this does not however scale them overall above MInato. Sasuke himself required a counterattack to actually hit him.

3. Does the Japanese trans leave out the "toughest fellow" part? What does it say, would be nice if u posted that instead, can't really comment on this but it isn't a strong argument depending on the raw

It does seem to do that. I tried running the statement through multiple online translator but every single human translator I have come across claim that an expression is used and that it means either first or second. Here's a translation from a staff from the Naruto Forums.

The original dialogue goes like this: 「今までやった奴らの中でもあの写輪眼は一・二を争うぐらい強かったからな」
"Among all those I've fought up until now, that Sharingan dude takes either the first or second place in terms of strength."

This is from a friend.

It roughly translates to:
"Of all the guys I've fought up to now, that Sharingan was strong enough to compete for first or second..."

They all say basically the same thing.