Naruto: Minato Downgrade

[Shadow_Somnius]

Very controversial but I will present straightforward evidence. My first serious CRT, let's see how it goes.

1. Minato was stated to be surpassed by PA SM Naruto.
   
   Spoiler

   

   
   
   There's not much to explain here. The strongest evidence. An explicit, direct statement from Fukasaku.
   
   
2. C states that Base A4 is now comparable to Minato and V1 A4 is far higher.
   
   Spoiler

   
   
   V1 A4 was previously relative to Minato and now he has grown strong enough that his Base is what is comparable with Minato's.
   
   
3. Bee believes that a virgin MS Sasuke is comparable to Minato.
   
   Spoiler

   
   
   Now, this is technically a mistranslation. The original roughly says that Sasuke could probably compete for the no.1 or no.2 position. Seems to be a Japanese expression. The point of accentuation is that Bee seriously believes that a Virgin MS Sasuke put up a performance that rivals even Minato's.

Counters:

1. In the first scan, it could simply mean that Naruto surpassed him in SM.
   
   Rebuttal: I humbly ask the proponents of this argument to duly submit evidence for the SM caveat for that is a gross narrowing of what Fukasaku said.
   
   
2. Well, A4 said something contradictory later.
   
   Spoiler

   
   
   Rebuttal: This doesn't necessarily contradict the other statements. Taking A4's words as literally as possible, it means after Minato's death, the title of 'The Fastest' was passed on to A4. It has been 17 years since that, and what he's speaking about is an event of the past. It doesn't necessarily need to have a bearing in the present.
   
   
3. The databook also says something similar.
   
   Spoiler

   
   
   Rebuttal: The wiki already has rules on this.
   

   The Naruto databook descriptions should only be used on a case-by-case basis, depending on if the sources are consistent with the manga or are questionable hyperbole.

   Databook: A databook is a book containing statistics for manga or anime characters. This is usually done to provide extra info and backstory to characters and is usually done for shounen manga. Most databooks are considered secondary canon and as such are no match against manga scans. Some databooks are unreliable because it's either not written by the author or contain info disproven by scans and manga.

Conclusion: Essentially, Minato should scale relative but not superior to SM Naruto with his speed being equal to base A4. So remove the possibly higher rating in his alive Key and his speed should not scale to full power Ay ie. it should be changed to Massively Hypersonic+.

With this much explicit evidence from the Manga, it simply cannot be ignored any longer. Thanks for reading!!

Agree: @GTsek
Neutral:
Disagree:

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

you gonna have Gokusparkle on your ass

 

[Deceived3596]

@GokuSparkle Your husband has been disrespected, defend his honor.

 

[Shadow_Somnius]

you gonna have Gokusparkle on your ass

I actually had a debate with him previously on this same topic. We thought we'd leave it to the staff.

 

[Deceived3596]

Rebuttal: I humbly ask the proponents of this argument to duly submit evidence for the SM caveat for that is a gross narrowing of what Fukasaku said.

While i'm entirely neutral on this thread's premise since i'm not knowledgeable on Naruto, i don't agree with this rebuttal.

That interpretation holds similar value to your interpretation since both are based around assuming what Pa meant by "surpassed" Minato and Jiraya, it could be because he's stronger than Base Minato and Jiraya, or it could be that Naruto has a better Sage Mode compared to both Minato and Jiraya. Both are equally possible when examined in a vacuum since the statement is vague in context.

You'd have to examine supplemental pieces of evidence to gain a clearer understanding which interpretation is supported more compared to the other.

 

[Shadow_Somnius]

While i'm entirely neutral on this thread since i'm not knowledgeable on Naruto, i don't agree with this rebuttal.

That interpretation holds similar value to your interpretation since both are based around assuming what Pa meant by "surpassed" Minato and Jiraya, it could be because he's stronger than Base Minato and Jiraya, or it could be that Naruto has a better Sage Mode compared to both Minato and Jiraya. Both are equally possible when examined in a vacuum since the statement is vague in context.

You'd have to examine supplemental pieces of evidence to gain a clearer understanding which interpretation is supported more compared to the other.

Not exactly. Because this would be mocking the author for not being able to distinguish between surpassing someone in a singular stat and surpassing them overall.

If the author had indeed wanted to say that Naruto surpassed Minato only in SM, he would have had Fukasaku say something like "Naruto boy has surpassed all his predecessors as a Sage" or something of the like. Kishimoto would not be that dense to not make such an important distinction.

Regardless, we generally take simple 'surpass' statements to mean just that, overall. My argument would not only is the most straightforward but it is also in adherence to Occum's razor. We simply have no grounds to argue that he meant only SM.

Besides, C and Bee's statements would supplement to the same as you say.

 

[Damage3245]

What do you propose Minato's rating / justifications to be?

 

[Deceived3596]

Not exactly. Because this would be mocking the author for not being able to distinguish between surpassing someone in a singular stat and surpassing them overall.

If the author had indeed wanted to say that Naruto surpassed Minato only in SM, he would have had Fukasaku say something like "Naruto boy has surpassed all his predecessors as a Sage" or something of the like. Kishimoto would not be that dense to not make such an important distinction.

Regardless, we generally take simple 'surpass' statements to mean just that, overall. My argument would not only is the most straightforward but it is also in adherence to Occum's razor. We simply have no grounds to argue that he meant only SM.

It wouldn't be mocking to the author in any way? "surpassing" doesn't inherently imply overall, surpassing just denotes someone or something is greater than another in something, be it general or singular.

No he wouldn't, just because he isn't direct with his wording doesn't mean valid implications of the statement don't exist anymore, also again, this has nothing to do with the intelligence of the author, being vague in intention doesn't mean you can't get your point across, while yes it lessens it, it doesn't completely negate it.

No we don't because "surpass" doesn't imply anything quantitatively in terms of numerical differences. It wouldn't fall under Occum's Razor either since both interpretations are equally possible when examined in a vacuum. We have about as much ground to argue for the SM interpretation to your interpretation when both are examined in a vacuum.

Besides, C and Bee's statements would supplement to the same as you say.

C's statement is in reference to Minato's speed, not his AP, which means nothing to this conversation.

The Bee statement seems good from an outsider looking in, could be wrong though.

 

[Godernet]

I disagree, I'll get into why in a bit.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

I actually had a debate with him previously on this same topic. We thought we'd leave it to the staff.

i have my own thoughts, but id like to see what everyone else thinks

 

[Shadow_Somnius]

It wouldn't be mocking to the author in any way? "surpassing" doesn't inherently imply overall, surpassing just denotes someone or something is greater than another in something, be it general or singular.

Yes, but if this 'surpass' doesn't have any quantifiers we do not have any base to argue for that.

No he wouldn't, just because he isn't direct with his wording doesn't mean valid implications of the statement don't exist anymore, also again, this has nothing to do with the intelligence of the author, being vague in intention doesn't mean you can't get your point across, while yes it lessens it, it doesn't completely negate it.

If the author's intention was to have Naruto only surpass Minato in SM, he has no reason to omit it. We are talking about a direct explicit statement here not some tangential implication.

No we don't because "surpass" doesn't imply anything quantitatively in terms of numerical differences.

It literally means to be better than or to be greater.

It wouldn't fall under Occum's Razor either since both interpretations are equally possible when examined in a vacuum.

It isn't. Occum's razor vouches for the simplest and easiest conclusion.

Occam's razor, Ockham's razor, or Ocham's razor (Latin: novacula Occami) in philosophy is the problem-solving principle that recommends searching for explanations constructed with the smallest possible set of elements.

Occam's razor - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

My argument takes the statement as it says. I do not add, change or pick something very particular from the statement. By all means, mine adhere's to the razor more.
SM caveat proponents are taking something very particular from the statement and then dismissing the overall implication.

I may not have worded it right before but many times when I debated on the topic I have been met with attempts to dismiss the entire statement because it could have meant SM without appropriate evidences for it.

We have about as much ground to argue for the SM interpretation to your interpretation when both are examined in a vacuum.

I concur, that's why I brought Occum's razor in.

C's statement is in reference to Minato's speed, not his AP, which means nothing to this conversation.

I don't think many people have any problems believing SM Naruto has greater AP. Minato's AP feats prior to his Edo incarnation shouldn't surpass Naruto's.

 

[Shadow_Somnius]

i have my own thoughts, but id like to see what everyone else thinks

Just so that I know, do you lean on agreeing or disagreeing? Not going on the list though.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

Just so that I know, do you lean on agreeing or disagreeing? Not going on the list though.

agree with some stuff and disagree with others.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

I'll be giving a full response to this later but know that I disagree 1000%. Especially on Base Ay~Minato. That is just...
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[Shadow_Somnius]

I'll be giving a full response to this later but know that I disagree 1000%. Especially on Base Ay~Minato. That is just...
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Waiting for it. We duked it out once, we'll do it again!!

 

[Godernet]

Very controversial but I will present straightforward evidence. My first serious CRT, let's see how it goes.

1. Minato was stated to be surpassed by PA SM Naruto.

He definitely meant as a Sage. Throughout the training arc, Fukasaku highlights several times how no one has ever fully mastered Sage Mode without frog features. This is not contradicted by Minato himself saying he sucks at it. We also have no proof of Fusaku knowing the full extent of Minato's capabilities or when he even taught Minato Sage Mode. He didn't even know Naruto's full capabilities until during the fight with Pain outside of the sage mode and Frog Kumite Taijutsu he taught him.

1. C states that Base A4 is now comparable to Minato and V1 A4 is far higher.
   
   
   V1 A4 was previously relative to Minato and now he has grown strong enough that his Base is what is comparable with Minato's.

Why is C a reliable source of Minato's capabilities?
1). this is just referring to speed not AP.
2). We later see Base Edo Minato capable of reacting and moving in a fight with 8th Gate Guy and Six Paths Madara something Ay has never shown the ability to do. in fact, he got out sped by KCM Naruto at his top speeds. So even his being superior in speed to Base Minato is unlikely.

1. Bee believes that a virgin MS Sasuke is comparable to Minato.

The only time we've ever seen them fight was against Jounin Minato and it was more of an Ay and Bee vs Minato with Bee and Minato barely interacting during the fight. Also, we know that MS Sasuke doesn't surpass his previous CM2 self until the Kage Summit. Sasuke much later after the Itachi fight claims he would have never beaten a healthy Orochimaru at the point he killed him. Minato is called superior to both Orochimaru and Old Hiruzen both directly and indirectly.

The other problem is we have a Kishimoto WOG statement that Minato was the strongest dead Shinobi tied with the third Hokage at the time of the Itachi fight. Meaning he thought Minato was stronger than Sage Jiraiya(a rival to Orochimaru who is stronger than the Sasuke that Bee fought.)

We also see others compare KCM and KCM2 Naruto to Minato a lot. Tsunade, Bee, Ay, Kakashi, and Kurama all do.

Minato himself saw the fight Sage Naruto had with Pain and still thought Naruto would need to master the Nine tails to beat Obito, someone Minato had already beaten in the past.

We also have smaller statements like how Old Hiruzen is the strongest of the five Kage during Part 1. In an Era where Ay the 4th was Raikage. And we know that Minato>>>Old Hiruzen. tbf he could have gotten stronger but this was just a side point.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

The only time we've ever seen them fight was against Jounin Minato

To be fair this isnt a very strong argument, we have no idea how significant the gap in power is between these two versions, given that Minato's tenure as hokage is significantly short and all of Minato's most well known accolades happened while he was a Jonin.

 

[Godernet]

To be fair this isnt a very strong argument, we have no idea how significant the gap in power is between these two versions, given that Minato's tenure as hokage is significantly short and all of Minato's most well known accolades happened while he was a Jonin.

true, but to say MS Pre Kage Summit Sasuke is stronger than Minato in his prime off of this statement is shaky at best. Minato was in his early to mid-20s so he still could have grown considerably, especially in an era of war. it's unquantifiable growth at best tbh.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

true, but to say MS Pre Kage Summit Sasuke is stronger than Minato in his prime off of this statement is shaky at best.

t̶o̶ b̶e̶ f̶a̶i̶r̶ n̶a̶r̶u̶t̶o̶ t̶h̶o̶u̶g̶h̶t̶ h̶e̶ n̶e̶e̶d̶e̶d̶ K̶C̶M̶ t̶o̶ b̶e̶a̶t̶ M̶S̶ s̶a̶s̶u̶k̶e̶

it's funny because the sasuke that Bee fought is actually weaker than Taka Sasuke

 

[Hasty12345]

Minato is clearly kishi’s own personal movable goal post for Naruto. This whole thread is giving me Beerus and Goku vibes.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

To be fair this isnt a very strong argument, we have no idea how significant the gap in power is between these two versions, given that Minato's tenure as hokage is significantly short and all of Minato's most well known accolades happened while he was a Jonin.

He didn't even see Minato the whole war, cause Ay forbade Bee to fight after his dad died

t̶o̶ b̶e̶ f̶a̶i̶r̶ n̶a̶r̶u̶t̶o̶ t̶h̶o̶u̶g̶h̶t̶ h̶e̶ n̶e̶e̶d̶e̶d̶ K̶C̶M̶ t̶o̶ b̶e̶a̶t̶ M̶S̶ s̶a̶s̶u̶k̶e̶

it's funny because the sasuke that Bee fought is actually weaker than Taka Sasuke

Sasuke also thought he needed the EMS to beat Naruto. SM Naruto and MS Sasuke are equals

 

[Godernet]

t̶o̶ b̶e̶ f̶a̶i̶r̶ n̶a̶r̶u̶t̶o̶ t̶h̶o̶u̶g̶h̶t̶ h̶e̶ n̶e̶e̶d̶e̶d̶ K̶C̶M̶ t̶o̶ b̶e̶a̶t̶ M̶S̶ s̶a̶s̶u̶k̶e̶

when was that? I thought he said him and Sasuke would kill each other when his best was Sage Mode?

If anything this could just mean Sage Naruto = MS Kage Summit Sasuke and he though he would need the nine tails to keep up with Sasuke's rate of growth.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

He didn't even see Minato the whole war, cause Ay forbade Bee to fight after his dad died

this doesnt really address what i said.

 

[ssgengar]

He definitely meant as a Sage. Throughout the training arc, Fukasaku highlights several times how no one has ever fully mastered Sage Mode without frog features. This is not contradicted by Minato himself saying he sucks at it. We also have no proof of Fusaku knowing the full extent of Minato's capabilities or when he even taught Minato Sage Mode. He didn't even know Naruto's full capabilities until during the fight with Pain outside of the sage mode and Frog Kumite Taijutsu he taught him.

Completely agree with this, plus later on naruto was portrayed to be relative with KCM1. Killer b, ay and tsunade all compared him to “the yellow flash”

 

[MinatoSparkle]

when was that? I thought he said him a Sasuke would kill each other when his best was Sage Mode?

Bottom left

this doesnt really address what i said.

It means he doesn't know the strength of Prime Jonin Minato, as he stopped fighting him midway through the war.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

It means he doesn't know the strength of Prime Jonin Minato, as he stopped fighting him midway through the war.

You would have to prove that early war Minato and late war Minato vary in strength.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

Anyway i think OP's arguments are much stronger in vacuum than any of the counter arguments ive seen in the thread,however the caveat here being in a vacuum. the issue is that the series doesn't stop here, a lot of the lore and scaling is ever changing because it rarely comes from an objective source. when viewing things like this, you need to view them holistically.

Naruto surpassing Minato at this point in the story in every regard is put into question when a large amount of time and narrative reinforcement is given to having Naruto surpass Minato in speed just a few arcs later.

this might not seem like a big deal at first but the existence of a single stat/category entirely invalidates the premise of equalized succession in power.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

You would have to prove that early war Minato and late war Minato vary in strength.

Not really, the burden would be on the one asserting that Bee's opinion is valid because he knows Minato's real strength. Also fighting amps people.

 

[Damage3245]

What do you propose Minato's rating / justifications to be?

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

Not really, the burden would be on the one asserting that Bee's opinion is valid because he knows Minato's real strength. Also fighting amps people.

No? the burden of proof would be on you, your the one making the claim that Minato's strength varies on when in the war it took place.

 

[GTsek]

I agree that the base Minato should not scale to Prime Ay nor Naruto MK1, but I don't think the justifications used in the OP are strong enough. Minato shouldn't scale because all his speed statements and even his nickname is thanks to Hiraishin, him being faster than Ay is due to Hiraishin Minato has a huge reaction speed but NONE feat of speed in fact, the databook even says that the secret of his super speed is Hiraish But this site somehow made a revisionism about it.

Both C and the databook confirm that Ay at armor level 1 is comparable to Minato, when we have a demonstration of the fight between them we see Minato reacting to Ay's maximum speed but he only dodges with Hiraishin, so how did Minato face him years ago, I believe the most we could do would be to match base Minato's full speed or just reaction to level 1 Ay only. There were 18/16 years between their fight and the fight with Naruto, it's totally plausible that he had the speed he had in the past just with the level 1 armor It would be basically: Prime Ay with level 2 armor > Prime Ay with level 1 armor = base Minato = young Ay with maximum speed.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

@Shadow_Somnius

What do you propose Minato's rating / justifications to be?

 

[Shadow_Somnius]

What do you propose Minato's rating / justifications to be?

Would you mind waiting? I will tell you if this is accepted since, I want some time to figure it out.

 

[Godernet]

You would have to prove that early war Minato and late war Minato vary in strength.

Or prove that Hokage Minato > Early 3rd War Minato and I mean

3rd War Minato is relative but superior to Jounin Ay and younger Bee.

Hokage Minato is claimed to be stronger than an Old Hiruzen who is stronger than an Ay, that is now the 4th Raikage and 12 years older than his Minato fight.

he's definitely stronger by how much is basically unknown.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

No? the burden of proof would be on you, your the one making the claim that Minato's strength varies on when in the war it took place.

The burden of proof is on the one making the initial claim. I just need to cast reasonable doubt on the claim. We have no reason to believe his strength is stagnant, so why is the baseline assumption that it is? But I'll include justification for him getting stronger in my full response post later anyways.

 

[Shadow_Somnius]

Goku, when are you gonna post your rebuttal?

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Goku, when are you gonna post your rebuttal?

I have a class soon so after that

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

The burden of proof is on the one making the initial claim. I just need to cast reasonable doubt on the claim.

No????

the first one is not a claim, it's a direct statement from the text.

the one to make a claim first is you, the claim being that Kille Bee's words are unreliable

We have no reason to believe his strength is stagnant

Based on what?

> so why is the baseline assumption that it is

Because the baseline uses the original text as it is at face value, your assumption requires to create variation that the text doesn't mention.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

@Shadow_Somnius

what would your counter be if i argued Fukasaku's statement is Holistic

 

[MinatoSparkle]

No????

the first one is not a claim, it's a direct statement from the text.

the one to make a claim first is you, the claim being that Kille Bee's words are unreliable

Somnius is making a claim, it's just hidden. What they're really saying by using that scan is Taka Sasuke~Middle of War Jonin Minato~Hokage Minato. The latter claim is unfulfilled because it's just not addressed and assumed.

We have no reason to believe his strength is stagnant

Based on what?

I can't prove a lack of something That'd be like if I said "We have no reason to believe the universe is made of pink marshmallows" and you asked "Based on what?" I can't provide evidence, because my whole point is that there isn't evidence.

Anyways I'm not gonna be able to respond for a while