Naruto: Minato Downgrade

[MinatoSparkle]

Although speaking of that feat, I can't believe I forgot to mention the fact that given how far Ay's fist was from hitting Minato compared to how far Minato's kunai was from Ay's shoulder, he would've needed faster combat speed than him anyways, which is made even more impressive from the fact that Minato's arm is at a pretty awkward position to throw something at high speed.

 

[Arkenis]

Although speaking of that feat, I can't believe I forgot to mention the fact that given how far Ay's fist was from hitting Minato compared to how far Minato's kunai was from Ay's shoulder, he would've needed faster combat speed than him anyways, which is made even more impressive from the fact that Minato's arm is at a pretty awkward position to throw something at high speed.

Oh yeah lmao, this feat also just solidifies his combat speed > top ay speed lol.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

It's also demonstrated very blatantly in the anime version, which showed Minato casually being 6.6x times faster than Ay https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Arc7Kuroi/Minato_Teleports_From_A_Fisting

 

[RoyGundam]

For Minato, we have other evidence proving his Edo variant is stronger

It's all speculation though. Nothing concrete about his base or Sage Mode forms

original power had the opportunity to grow even after death

Based on what?

The problem with this entire exercise is that you are focusing on speculative statements of people recalling their experience with Minato 15+ years ago, and speculations of people who have never met Minato as concrete proof while dismissing actual feats

 

[Golden_Void]

Disagree FRA.

Sage Naruto by feats (at the time) only destroyed Pain's summons and did nothing else but spam rasengan variants. You can argue he's "superior" in the sense that he has shape manipulation + can add element/natural energy, but that's about it. His feats are garbage compared to Minato's.

 

[Shadow_Somnius]

Also keep in mind, I've shown this before, but the 2nd databook ALSO credits his speed to how fast he kills enemies, like a flash of lightning, and FTG alone isn't enough to accomplish that, you need combat speed as well. So with both this and the fact that Minato's speed is compared to someone's physical speed, it's more consistent for speed to refer to physical speed, especially as the statement doesn't mention teleportation. It doesn't say flashing around at the greatest divine speed or anything like that, just that he HAS the greatest divine speed. And what makes it even MORE consistent is that it calls his speed divine, which is what Ay's speed that's compared to Minato is called as well, literally uses the same kanji.
全忍随一の神速を誇る武勇の誉れは、他里の猛者をも魅了する！
尾獣チャクラモードのナルトにも追いつけ、 “黄色い閃光” にも劣らない神速を誇る。

But that doesn't work. Look even if I were to concede that the databook statement definitively refers to Ay and Minato's physical speed, you'd only get that. The fourth databook saying Minato has the greatest divine speed would be referring to FTG as per the second databook. Just because they use the same Kanji does nothing to your argument as we clearly see the 2nd Databook talk of FTG when it comes to Minato's speed. So, speed when it comes to Ay and Minato possess different meanings as established by the book. Again, you are putting fanfic quantifiers such as 'flashing around', the second book doesn't use such quantifiers when talking of his speed which it blatantly says is his technique.

Besides, @GTsek proved that Hirashin was what was praised for its 'Godspeed' and coincidently, the fourth databook also praises him for his Godspeed. Now you may argue the same term being used for A4 but it doesn't serve to prove your point since the term 'Godspeed/Divine speed' is not something exclusive or attached to Hirashin, its simply a term used to describe Hirashin's speed which they then used to describe A4's speed.

In other words, you take any and all character statements at face value and don't question them as long as they're confident about it, despite the fact that that would create irreparable contradictions if applied on a universal scale.

There aren't any contradictions but I can see how your scaling would fall apart if you accept these statements.

Also how come you didn't have this same mindset to Kakashi and Naruto saying Naruto's the only shinobi who can surpass the Fourth Hokage? They didn't express any unsureness in it.

Because the manga showed us that they lack knowledge? Are you really trying to argue your point based on statements said by Naruto and Kakashi during the IA ie. prior to SM? We clearly see that they lacked info on characters like Madara, OM Obito, Pain etc. because we see them gaining information about these characters only in the subsequent chapters.

Consider this example, I say that my big brother is the fastest person ever. Does that mean I am lying, incorrect, unreliable, or stupid? Of course not, it simply means to my knowledge, my older brother is the fastest because I lack knowledge of the fastest people in the world. Now, what if I said that my brother is faster than Usain Bolt? Here I am either right or I am wrong, there's no middle ground as in the previous statement, it is not that I lack knowledge of Usain Bolt since I made a direct comparison between him and my brother. Do you get it now? I would have dismissed Fukasaku and C's statements if they simply declared the concerned shinobi the strongest or something because you can effectively argue for a lack of knowledge but they boast a clear comparison between Minato and the concerned character and the author never once made it his mission to show that either of them was remotely unreliable.

Heck, since the statements were made prior to SM, you can even argue Fukasaku was a callback to Kakashi and Naruto and served us readers the purpose of confirming that Naruto has indeed surpassed his predecessors.

Also surpass doesn't have to refer to a future thing like you argued in your last large post, it just means being superior. If Naruto's the only one who can surpass the Fourth Hokage, that means no other shinobi surpassed him at the time.

I argued the future point for the 'There's no faster shinobi' statement. The one you are referring to, going by the viz could be talking about it ideally/conceptually, and going by DeepL is a subjective opinion.

Uh........That's not what you said. You said Ay can be comparable to FTG, because his title and speed are praised for FTG. Now you're backtracking and ignoring your previous point.

Incorrect, I argued for Hokage Minato's shunshin=V1 Ay's speed as far back as the first rebuttal. Heck, I even argued that in our previous debate as well. I only brought this up to show you the different interpretations possible that remain consistent with my position.

Although speaking of that feat, I can't believe I forgot to mention the fact that given how far Ay's fist was from hitting Minato compared to how far Minato's kunai was from Ay's shoulder, he would've needed faster combat speed than him anyways, which is made even more impressive from the fact that Minato's arm is at a pretty awkward position to throw something at high speed.

Not at all, that only requires Minato to be able to physically react to A4's speed, which he definitely can. All Minato would need is a powerful wrist movement to flick the kunai. This by no means requires him to have faster or even relative combat speed. This requires essentially the same level of reaction you require to react to a cricket ball coming at your face but failing even at that. I tried the same movement at home and I was able to achieve similar results with nothing more than a simple wrist movement.

Minato having V2+ combat speed would be an atrocious proposition since literally in the next chapter we see he was stalemated by Base Bee, so unless you believe Base Bee's combat speed is the same as V2 A4's, this wouldn't work. Well, I have a pretty good idea of how your are gonna answer this but let's see.

---

"My attack was simply a test. You're only the second to have ever outrun my fastest punch"
"He outdid my top speed?!!"

Two scans that put this thread to rest.

They do nothing lol. The databook has enough evidence to suggest that A4 became stronger. And mind you, just because their reactions and speed are on par in base doesn't mean Minato is incapable of reacting to V1 A4 or not even capable of a wrist movement against him rolf.

---

It's all speculation though. Nothing concrete about his base or Sage Mode forms

The contextual evidence suggests otherwise. But I wasn't discussing Fukasaku's statement here.

Based on what?

Based on the fact that those sealed within the reaper death seal fight endlessly and Bee recognizes fighting as superior to training.

Spoiler

The problem with this entire exercise is that you are focusing on speculative statements of people recalling their experience with Minato 15+ years ago, and speculations of people who have never met Minato as concrete proof while dismissing actual feats

We have no reason to assume that these are speculations though. You say that because they contradict your but that's not a valid excuse. Alive Minato's feats are contending with A4 and Bee and winning against a featless Obito. Not much going on for him when it comes to feats. A has evidence of becoming stronger in those years combined with those statements. My argument does not dismiss these statements but rather construct a logical argument with them.

---

Disagree FRA.

Sage Naruto by feats (at the time) only destroyed Pain's summons and did nothing else but spam rasengan variants. You can argue he's "superior" in the sense that he has shape manipulation + can add element/natural energy, but that's about it. His feats are garbage compared to Minato's.

How so? Alive Minato's best feats are stalemating A4 and Bee and contending with a featless Obito. Beats me how that puts his feats greater than Naruto's.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Spoiler: pippity poppity this downgrade's not hoppining

But that doesn't work. Look even if I were to concede that the databook statement definitively refers to Ay and Minato's physical speed, you'd only get that. The fourth databook saying Minato has the greatest divine speed would be referring to FTG as per the second databook. Just because they use the same Kanji does nothing to your argument as we clearly see the 2nd Databook talk of FTG when it comes to Minato's speed. So, speed when it comes to Ay and Minato possess different meanings as established by the book. Again, you are putting fanfic quantifiers such as 'flashing around', the second book doesn't use such quantifiers when talking of his speed which it blatantly says is his technique.

You're contradicting yourself. If Minato's divine speed can refer to physical speed as per Ay, why are you claiming that the statement of Minato being the fastest shinobi has to be referring to FTG?

Besides, @GTsek proved that Hirashin was what was praised for its 'Godspeed' and coincidently, the fourth databook also praises him for his Godspeed. Now you may argue the same term being used for A4 but it doesn't serve to prove your point since the term 'Godspeed/Divine speed' is not something exclusive or attached to Hirashin, its simply a term used to describe Hirashin's speed which they then used to describe A4's speed.

Neither you nor GT countered the fact that Minato's combat speed is also praised highly and is also part of why he has his title.

There aren't any contradictions but I can see how your scaling would fall apart if you accept these statements.

For example, Jiraiya said that none can match Tsunade's battle prowess while Ebisu stated that a Sannin can stop another Sannin (which is also backed up by many other statements of Sannin equality). They're both confident about their statements, but they can't both be right.

Statements can be wrong, even if they're sure of their opinion. It doesn't always have to be Kishimoto plugging his thoughts into characters.

Because the manga showed us that they lack knowledge? Are you really trying to argue your point based on statements said by Naruto and Kakashi during the IA ie. prior to SM? We clearly see that they lacked info on characters like Madara, OM Obito, Pain etc. because we see them gaining information about these characters only in the subsequent chapters.

That's not the point. The point I'm making is that characters don't need full knowledge to make statements with full confidence. It can be based on reputation, or bias, or any number of factors. You can't just take statements as gospel without any sort of doubt. Also there is the fact that Kakashi knew Itachi who's >MS Sasuke~SM Naruto, and seemed to have an idea of his power, knowing that he hadn't shown close to all his power against him Kurenai and Asuma. And he definitely knew 7th Gate Guy, though idk what your opinion on his power at BoS is.

Consider this example, I say that my big brother is the fastest person ever. Does that mean I am lying, incorrect, unreliable, or stupid? Of course not, it simply means to my knowledge, my older brother is the fastest because I lack knowledge of the fastest people in the world. Now, what if I said that my brother is faster than Usain Bolt? Here I am either right or I am wrong, there's no middle ground as in the previous statement, it is not that I lack knowledge of Usain Bolt since I made a direct comparison between him and my brother. Do you get it now? I would have dismissed Fukasaku and C's statements if they simply declared the concerned shinobi the strongest or something because you can effectively argue for a lack of knowledge but they boast a clear comparison between Minato and the concerned character and the author never once made it his mission to show that either of them was remotely unreliable.

Yes it would mean that you're incorrect if he's not the fastest in the world. As for the faster than Usain Bolt thing, how do I know you don't lack knowledge and you're just saying that because you idolize your brother and heard that Usain's the fastest in the world? I could use this kind of analogy against you. If I'm madly in love with someone, and they're a sprinter comparable or slightly slower than someone else I know, I might think there's no way the former is gonna lose cause I'm biased.

To be honest though, the statement should really refer to V1 Ay. He's saying that BECAUSE Ay's nerve transmission and reactions are on par with Minato, it's impressive that Taka is keeping up. Since he's using V1 against them, in context it should mean that version of Ay is being compared to Minato. Which is more consistent with the databook saying V1 Ay is relative to the Yellow Flash.

If you wanted to say V1 Ay's movement and reaction speed (and possibly combat speed, though it's questionable as there's no direct comparison between them in that regard and we see Minato outspeeding Ay with combat speed) are comparable to Jonin Minato's without Shunshin, I wouldn't even necessarily have an issue with that. But you gotta stop with this aggressive downplay of Minato being Base Ay level cause it's straight up not gonna be accepted.

This next part's very important for everyone to see so I'm not spoilering it.

Heck, since the statements were made prior to SM, you can even argue Fukasaku was a callback to Kakashi and Naruto and served us readers the purpose of confirming that Naruto has indeed surpassed his predecessors.

Speaking of the Fukasaku statement, the databook does highkey imply that the statement is referring to Sage Mode mastery, cause it references the same page where that statement is made and says that Naruto had mastered a Sage Mode beyond that of Jiraiya's, doesn't talk specifically about power, and doesn't even mention Minato.

And in case you're wondering if it's a mistranslation, you can check for yourself (as far as I can tell, it's even more explicitly about Sage Mode mastery in the raws).
厳しい修業の末、ナルトは自来也以上に"仙人モード"を極めた。

Spoiler

I argued the future point for the 'There's no faster shinobi' statement. The one you are referring to, going by the viz could be talking about it ideally/conceptually, and going by DeepL is a subjective opinion.

What? I'm talking about the statements about Naruto being the only shinobi who can surpass Minato, not the ones you're referring to.

Incorrect, I argued for Hokage Minato's shunshin=V1 Ay's speed as far back as the first rebuttal. Heck, I even argued that in our previous debate as well. I only brought this up to show you the different interpretations possible that remain consistent with my position.

That's one interpretation. I simply proposed my other interpretation which remains logically consistent with my other arguments. A4's level of objectivity being less in
That does not work since the second book blatantly refers to FTG as speed. So, speed in the context of both Minato and A4 in the fourth Databook could easily be interpreted as referring to Hirashin when it comes to Minato.

Not at all, that only requires Minato to be able to physically react to A4's speed, which he definitely can. All Minato would need is a powerful wrist movement to flick the kunai. This by no means requires him to have faster or even relative combat speed. This requires essentially the same level of reaction you require to react to a cricket ball coming at your face but failing even at that. I tried the same movement at home and I was able to achieve similar results with nothing more than a simple wrist movement.

Wdym "all" he needs is a powerful wrist movement? Idk why you're trying to word it like this as if it's changing the point that Minato had to throw his kunai faster than Ay moved his fist. Ay's fist is literally 2 centimetres from Minato's face. Minato definitely needed to move more than 2 cm to throw the kunai to Ay's back. Also VSBW uses the anime portrayal of feats in some instances, like with SPSM Naruto dodging Madara's Light Fang, and in the anime Minato is objectively shown being faster than Ay. And no it's not the same, because the cricket ball is not 2 cm from your face before you've even started moving.

Minato having V2+ combat speed would be an atrocious proposition since literally in the next chapter we see he was stalemated by Base Bee, so unless you believe Base Bee's combat speed is the same as V2 A4's, this wouldn't work. Well, I have a pretty good idea of how your are gonna answer this but let's see.

You know they didn't actually attack right? Minato just pointed a knife at Bee's neck as a threat and Bee had his knife behind his back. If they actually tagged each other then sure but no. And even if I steelmanned that this Minato is ~Base Bee, that just means he's massively weaker than Prime Minato because Minato>Orochimaru>CM2 Hebi Sasuke>>3T Hebi Sasuke>3T Taka Sasuke<~Base Bee in combat speed.

Based on the fact that those sealed within the reaper death seal fight endlessly and Bee recognizes fighting as superior to training.

You're using this to say that Edo feats don't apply to Alive Minato, yet don't think this argument for Hokage Minato>Jonin Minato works because it's unquantifiable Either you can use Edo Minato feats for Alive Minato (which is the case either way cause the Edo Hokage are weaker than their alive counterparts) or you can't use Jonin Minato to downscale Hokage Minato.

 

[RoyGundam]

We have no reason to assume that these are speculations though

We don't have to assume. A has not interacted with Minato in 15+ years and C has never even met Minato. Their statements are the definition of speculative

Based on the fact that those sealed within the reaper death seal fight endlessly

The problem with this is that Hiruzen is just wrong to begin with. Minato clearly became friends with Kurama while they were sealed. There are also no statements from Minato or any of the other Edo Tensei Hokage about becoming stronger while being sealed, which is odd because the souls of every single one of them were sealed by the Reaper death seal. Instead, they note that they are near (but not quite at) their prime while alive

 

[RoyGundam]

Alive Minato's best feats are stalemating A4

Alive Minato had the combat speed to blitz A4. It is beyond obvious if you watch the scene

 

[Golden_Void]

Not at all, that only requires Minato to be able to physically react to A4's speed, which he definitely can. All Minato would need is a powerful wrist movement to flick the kunai. This by no means requires him to have faster or even relative combat speed. This requires essentially the same level of reaction you require to react to a cricket ball coming at your face but failing even at that. I tried the same movement at home and I was able to achieve similar results with nothing more than a simple wrist movement.

Minato having V2+ combat speed would be an atrocious proposition since literally in the next chapter we see he was stalemated by Base Bee, so unless you believe Base Bee's combat speed is the same as V2 A4's, this wouldn't work. Well, I have a pretty good idea of how your are gonna answer this but let's see.

Minato being = to base Ay (coming from a person who wasn't even at the fight at that) is crazy considering Ay explicitly states Minato dodged his fastest punch. This also implies Raikage was using his fastest punch at half his power. There is no scan in existence showing Bee and Minato crossing blades. Bee preemptively placed his blade to protect himself. He obviously isn't faster than instant teleportation, and he has no movement artwork in the manga panel to suggest he moved after Minato already teleported to him.

Also to your earlier point, "Bee believes that a virgin MS Sasuke is comparable to Minato.", again, they never crossed blades and Sasuke got dogwalked.

The contextual evidence suggests otherwise. But I wasn't discussing Fukasaku's statement here.

Based on the fact that those sealed within the reaper death seal fight endlessly and Bee recognizes fighting as superior to training.

There's no evidence of how long they fought. Considering Minato's intelligence is > Bee and Naruto (who linked with Kurama in a short period of time), it is highly unlikely that he was fighting with Kurama for any substantial amount of time.

We have no reason to assume that these are speculations though. You say that because they contradict your but that's not a valid excuse. Alive Minato's feats are contending with A4 and Bee and winning against a featless Obito. Not much going on for him when it comes to feats. A has evidence of becoming stronger in those years combined with those statements. My argument does not dismiss these statements but rather construct a logical argument with them.

How so? Alive Minato's best feats are stalemating A4 and Bee and contending with a featless Obito. Beats me how that puts his feats greater than Naruto's.

Naruto pre-sage training had ~2x more chakra than Kakashi, and 100x more without Kurama being suppressed. Even as a kid, Kakashi conceded that Naruto and Sasuke had massive chakra reserves, and had hoped only to merely tap into those reserves with training. Zabuza stated that 9 tails chakra Naruto had bigger chakra than Kakashi, and that was only with a portion of Kurama's chakra leaking from the seal. Not to mention, Naruto's seal was designed to continuously skim Kurama's chakra and add to his own. Kakashi's statements on Naruto's use of shadow clones also implies Naruto's chakra reserves have been far larger since his youth.

Moving to when Naruto was training for summoning jutsu with Jiraiya. Jiraiya told Naruto that summoning jutsu required more chakra than Naruto's standard reserves, and he would have to use Kurama's chakra to perform the jutsu. Naruto used a portion of Kurama's chakra without showing Kurama's influence and summoned Gamabunta and passed out right after from exhaustion, a feat that even Jiraiya struggled with. Jiraiya also stated Naruto summoning Gamabunta proved he borrowed too much chakra, which is stated in the databook as well. The way Fukusaku explained SM, only natural energy is being added to the mix which would only serve to enhance the physical and spiritual energy that already exists, not make those reserves larger.

Minato was able to use FTG to warp a TBB bigger than the heads of the hokage monument, fight with Obito, break the genjutsu on Kurama, immediately after summon Gamabunta and warp away 100% Kurama who dwarfs mountains, while still being able to summon person-sized frogs while nearly on empty, and still perform two sealing jutsus before dying. Cut partial transformed B's tail too, up for debate if you think SM Naruto is >= that.

Naruto used two regular rasengan, two sage art: super big rasengan, a rasenshuriken, and dropped out of sage mode.

"Rebuttal: I humbly ask the proponents of this argument to duly submit evidence for the SM caveat for that is a gross narrowing of what Fukasaku said."

That is a dishonest proposition if you are insinuating that Base Naruto is also > Minato.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Minato being = to base Ay (coming from a person who wasn't even at the fight at that) is crazy considering Ay explicitly states Minato dodged his fastest punch. This also implies Raikage was using his fastest punch at half his power. There is no scan in existence showing Bee and Minato crossing blades. Bee preemptively placed his blade to protect himself. He obviously isn't faster than instant teleportation, and he has no movement artwork in the manga panel to suggest he moved after Minato already teleported to him.

Tbf it is stated they crossed blades many times.

Minato was able to use FTG to warp a TBB bigger than the heads of the hokage monument, fight with Obito, break the genjutsu on Kurama, immediately after summon Gamabunta and warp away 100% Kurama who dwarfs mountains, while still being able to summon person-sized frogs while nearly on empty, and still perform two sealing jutsus before dying. Cut partial transformed B's tail too, up for debate if you think SM Naruto is >= that.

Also there's the fact that he kept Kurama suppressed inside Kushina the whole time she was giving birth, which would be several if not many hours.

 

[Golden_Void]

Tbf it is stated they crossed blades many times.

Didn't even know that existed so I guess I'll agree to that, though there are no scans to even remotely suggest Sasuke is a similar combat power to Minato, considering he was effectively murdered twice in their fight with 10% difficulty.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Didn't even know that existed so I guess I'll agree to that, though there are no scans to even remotely suggest Sasuke is a similar combat power to Minato, considering he was effectively murdered twice in their fight with 10% difficulty.

Well Bee is probably stronger in Shippuden than against Minato but yeah Minato>>>>Taka Sasuke.

 

[RoyGundam]

Well Bee is probably stronger in Shippuden

Is he though? Bee is powerful because he is a "perfect" jinchuuriki and he pretty much seemed to have perfect control over the 8-tails even when he fought Minato

 

[Hasty12345]

Honestly, if anything Minato needs an upgrade

 

[Golden_Void]

Well Bee is probably stronger in Shippuden than against Minato but yeah Minato>>>>Taka Sasuke.

Obito had his MS longer + had half a body of Hashirama's cells and trained with Madara, I highly doubt Sasuke was on YM Obito's level yet.

That's not to say Bee didn't possibly improve, but if your only benchmark is A and a dude he fought 16 years ago, then A was probably his only challenge since Minato.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Is he though? Bee is powerful because he is a "perfect" jinchuuriki and he pretty much seemed to have perfect control over the 8-tails even when he fought Minato

That's not his only strength.

Also WA Bee is far stronger than FKS Bee via scaling above V1 Ay and rel to KCM Naruto in base so he definitely can get stronger.

Honestly, if anything Minato needs an upgrade

Obito had his MS longer + had half a body of Hashirama's cells and trained with Madara, I highly doubt Sasuke was on YM Obito's level yet.

I didn't say otherwise

That's not to say Bee didn't possibly improve, but if your only benchmark is A and a dude he fought 16 years ago, then A was probably his only challenge since Minato.

He probably trained on his own, I mean he literally see him practicing BM in his first appearance.

 

[Halkum145]

ftl+ h6a If you don't want to see Minato, close the discussion because my son is going crazy. agree gokusparkle ✌✌

 

[Shadow_Somnius]

Spoiler: pippity poppity this downgrade's not hoppining

You're contradicting yourself. If Minato's divine speed can refer to physical speed as per Ay, why are you claiming that the statement of Minato being the fastest shinobi has to be referring to FTG?

Because we know the definition of speed can be different when it comes to Minato. The second databook highlights that. For other fast shinobi, they were never shown or mentioned to have teleportation techniques that the book refers to as speed. The term 'Godspeed' was used to describe Hirashin and A4. Considering the second databook's opinion on Minato's speed being FTG. Obviously, when the book says Minato is praised for his speed it means FTG especially when the term they use yet again is Godspeed. Minato's normal speed lack the feats or hype to believe that its talking about his base speed.

Neither you nor GT countered the fact that Minato's combat speed is also praised highly and is also part of why he has his title.

Incorrect though. Obviously Minato's combat speed is fast, wouldn't make sense for it not to but that does not mean its A4 level. You need more evidence than that.

For example, Jiraiya said that none can match Tsunade's battle prowess while Ebisu stated that a Sannin can stop another Sannin (which is also backed up by many other statements of Sannin equality). They're both confident about their statements, but they can't both be right.

Statements of hype and portrayal are always possible. In this case, Jiraya is simply hyping up Tsunade and not comparing her to any specific shinobi unlike Ebisu but most importantly we know this is incorrect via actual feats and portrayal. Well, I am a bit iffy on that but that's for another day.

Statements can be wrong, even if they're sure of their opinion. It doesn't always have to be Kishimoto plugging his thoughts into characters.

Absolutely. Its just that Kishimoto hasn't given us any reason to believe C, Fukasaku and Bee are any wrong. For the Jiraya statement, we clearly have feats to argue against. But if you can find some loophole in that statement or some way that remains consistent even with the contradictory feats and statements, I have no problem accepting it.

That's not the point. The point I'm making is that characters don't need full knowledge to make statements with full confidence. It can be based on reputation, or bias, or any number of factors. You can't just take statements as gospel without any sort of doubt.

When there is a reason to cast doubt Kishimoto does it in some way or another. We do not really have a tangible reason to believe they are unreliable and why do so when we have logically consistent scaling without dismissing any of those statements?

Also there is the fact that Kakashi knew Itachi who's >MS Sasuke~SM Naruto, and seemed to have an idea of his power, knowing that he hadn't shown close to all his power against him Kurenai and Asuma.

That Kakashi could be easily judging based on what he knows of the guy from when he was in the Anbu. Itachi shinden shows us that before being made captain of his own team under Danzo, he was initially a part of Kakashi's Anbu unit.

And he definitely knew 7th Gate Guy, though idk what your opinion on his power at BoS is.

Yeah, I don't think 7th gate Guy has Juudara pressuring power right at BOS.

Yes it would mean that you're incorrect if he's not the fastest in the world. As for the faster than Usain Bolt thing, how do I know you don't lack knowledge and you're just saying that because you idolize your brother and heard that Usain's the fastest in the world?

That's a good point however in fiction we do not attribute magical knowledge to characters about things they have shown no knowledge of without a good reason though. If character X says that Character A is the strongest person in the world and there exists a Character B who has more reliable feats and statements for that title to belong to him, we write it off as the X not knowing about B or their capabilities. I mean this is the practice I have seen in a lot of fictional works. However, if X states that A is stronger than C, X is either right or wrong since he's making a direct comparison between the two and the argument he lacks knowledge wouldn't work as he made a direct comparison and C doesn't have much corroborating his superiority over A.

For C's case, Minato lacks any reliable feats and the databook also attributes his phenomenal speed to FTG and C has also been hyped for his intellect and rationality by the databook as well, so we have no reason to believe his direct comparison is incorrect.

I could use this kind of analogy against you. If I'm madly in love with someone, and they're a sprinter comparable or slightly slower than someone else I know, I might think there's no way the former is gonna lose cause I'm biased.

Yes. But if I did not know you very well, I'd have to first prove that you are madly in love with this person and biased. Otherwise, I'd have to use other methods to prove you incorrect. Can you prove that C was biased or madly in love or something of the sort with A4? Because mind you, unless you are way in over your head on that person, in your mind you would know that you are not analyzing the opposition the same way you are doing the person you love. C's assertion was an internal monologue which means what we saw was genuine with no hidden deceit or bias. Besides, it makes no sense for him to be biased since the monologue was not stressing the comparison between A4 and Minato but more so commending the Taka for keeping up with A4 while he's equal to Minato in base.

To be honest though, the statement should really refer to V1 Ay. He's saying that BECAUSE Ay's nerve transmission and reactions are on par with Minato, it's impressive that Taka is keeping up. Since he's using V1 against them, in context it should mean that version of Ay is being compared to Minato. Which is more consistent with the databook saying V1 Ay is relative to the Yellow Flash.

The part from "But Raikage..." would prove you wrong, though. It means until then he was talking of an Ay who did not manipulate Raiton ie. Base.

This next part's very important for everyone to see so I'm not spoilering it.

Speaking of the Fukasaku statement, the databook does highkey imply that the statement is referring to Sage Mode mastery, cause it references the same page where that statement is made and says that Naruto had mastered a Sage Mode beyond that of Jiraiya's, doesn't talk specifically about power, and doesn't even mention Minato.

And in case you're wondering if it's a mistranslation, you can check for yourself (as far as I can tell, it's even more explicitly about Sage Mode mastery in the raws).
厳しい修業の末、ナルトは自来也以上に"仙人モード"を極めた。

LOL. Referencing the same page is nowhere near enough evidence to suggest what you claim especially when there is contextual evidence suggesting otherwise within the manga. What makes this even more hilarious is the fact that they don't even reference the same panel but rather the panel two panels away from the concerned panel lol. If the book had the image of Fukasaku's statement or that of Naruto resembling Minato and Jiraya, that would have made a more compelling evidence. Here it can be easily argued that since the caption talks of SM mastery, they showed an image showing Naruto's sage features very clearly so as to emphasise his lack of toad features.

What? I'm talking about the statements about Naruto being the only shinobi who can surpass Minato, not the ones you're referring to.

Those statements are from Naruto and Kakashi prior to Sm and the databook that has no knowledge on the more powerful characters and still leaves room open for shinobi who are already stronger than Minato.

Wdym "all" he needs is a powerful wrist movement? Idk why you're trying to word it like this as if it's changing the point that Minato had to throw his kunai faster than Ay moved his fist. Ay's fist is literally 2 centimetres from Minato's face. Minato definitely needed to move more than 2 cm to throw the kunai to Ay's back.

Incorrect, he only needed to flick the kunai. That only requires him to move his hand via wrist movement. The angular momentum of the kunai would carry it as high as we see in canon. You can even perform this experiment in real life and achieve the same result without moving your hand much. That by no means requires him to have V2 levels of speed. I don't how else to phrase it but you are blatantly wrong that you need greater or comparable combat speed to perform such a feat.

Also VSBW uses the anime portrayal of feats in some instances, like with SPSM Naruto dodging Madara's Light Fang, and in the anime Minato is objectively shown being faster than Ay. And no it's not the same, because the cricket ball is not 2 cm from your face before you've even started moving.

Well, the anime is non-canon and when alternate interpretations than the anime exist, we cannot use it over the others.

You know they didn't actually attack right? Minato just pointed a knife at Bee's neck as a threat and Bee had his knife behind his back. If they actually tagged each other then sure but no.

I don't see how that helps you, Bee did the very same thing. He reacted to Minato and placed the knife in time. I mean that's quite literally the reason Minato didn't tag Bee rolf.

And even if I steelmanned that this Minato is ~Base Bee, that just means he's massively weaker than Prime Minato because Minato>Orochimaru>CM2 Hebi Sasuke>>3T Hebi Sasuke>3T Taka Sasuke<~Base Bee in combat speed.

I already addressed this in my large post.

This doesn't necessarily work. First, you'd have to prove the gaps between CM2, CM1, 3T Hebi and 3T Taka are massive.

Second, it could simply be that CM1 and CM2 Sasuke generally scale above Orochimaru. If you refer to your own scan, and as you yourself claim in the quoted, about Orochimaru by Suigetsu, he states that Sasuke could only beat him because his arms were sealed. This could imply Orochimaru with access to his vast arsenal of crazy and powerful ninjutsu would be able to put such a Sasuke down but otherwise can't. Moreover, it doesn't mean with ease either, it can also mean Sasuke would have stalemated Orochimaru or that the latter would win extreme-diff.

You're using this to say that Edo feats don't apply to Alive Minato, yet don't think this argument for Hokage Minato>Jonin Minato works because it's unquantifiable Either you can use Edo Minato feats for Alive Minato (which is the case either way cause the Edo Hokage are weaker than their alive counterparts) or you can't use Jonin Minato to downscale Hokage Minato.

I don't see any issue here. I don't know what's wrong with you. Jonin Minato could indeed be inferior to Hokage Minato but we can't quantify that difference even if he believe Hokage is superior, he best we can put him is relative to/superior to Jonin. We can't do anything more without a concrete scaling for the Hokage variant. However this does not apply to Edo Minato for we know he got about 2 decades of training and experience and his feats in the war corroborate to that. Edo Hokage being weaker than their alive counterparts is a deduction. Tobirama says that they have been brought back close to their original power and for most of the Hokages that original power was the power they had before they died, for Minato however, he got the opportunity to enhance his original power even after death. So, that doesn't apply in Minato's context.

If you wanted to say V1 Ay's movement and reaction speed (and possibly combat speed, though it's questionable as there's no direct comparison between them in that regard and we see Minato outspeeding Ay with combat speed) are comparable to Jonin Minato's without Shunshin, I wouldn't even necessarily have an issue with that. But you gotta stop with this aggressive downplay of Minato being Base Ay level cause it's straight up not gonna be accepted.

I who use explicit statements from the manga to construct a logical uncontradicted scaling is downplaying, its not that you people who completely ignore or dismiss these statements are overestimating him. Sure you keep on thinking that.

But yeah, despite the fact that I asked multiple staff but not even one is willing to ping the staff suggests that this thread is going nowhere so yep. I am done. At least most from the other forums agree with me.

All in all, I won't say it was a waste of time since I did get to learn more about you and all your Minato conglomerates.
Kukukuku...Muahahaahahaah....Phase-1 complete.

---

Naruto pre-sage training had ~2x more chakra than Kakashi, and 100x more without Kurama being suppressed. Even as a kid, Kakashi conceded that Naruto and Sasuke had massive chakra reserves, and had hoped only to merely tap into those reserves with training. Zabuza stated that 9 tails chakra Naruto had bigger chakra than Kakashi, and that was only with a portion of Kurama's chakra leaking from the seal. Not to mention, Naruto's seal was designed to continuously skim Kurama's chakra and add to his own. Kakashi's statements on Naruto's use of shadow clones also implies Naruto's chakra reserves have been far larger since his youth.

Okay..

Moving to when Naruto was training for summoning jutsu with Jiraiya. Jiraiya told Naruto that summoning jutsu required more chakra than Naruto's standard reserves, and he would have to use Kurama's chakra to perform the jutsu. Naruto used a portion of Kurama's chakra without showing Kurama's influence and summoned Gamabunta and passed out right after from exhaustion, a feat that even Jiraiya struggled with. Jiraiya also stated Naruto summoning Gamabunta proved he borrowed too much chakra, which is stated in the databook as well. The way Fukusaku explained SM, only natural energy is being added to the mix which would only serve to enhance the physical and spiritual energy that already exists, not make those reserves larger.

True. However, chakra reserves can be increased through training so you cannot use that to claim that Minato has greater chakra reserves than say Teen Naruto or PA Naruto.

Spoiler

Minato was able to use FTG to warp a TBB bigger than the heads of the hokage monument,

Okay. Proof that it requires a lot of chakra?

fight with Obito,

Okay. The only remotely chakra extensive move in that fight was Level-2 Hirashin which is essentially nothing more than an FTG manouever with Rasengan.

break the genjutsu on Kurama,

Okay. Proof that it requires a lot of chakra?

immediately after summon Gamabunta

Okay. That can be easily attributed to his large reserves as well as is precise chakra control.

and warp away 100% Kurama who dwarfs mountains,

Okay. Proof that it requires alot of chakra?

while still being able to summon person-sized frogs

One frog... Proof that it requires alot of chakra?

while nearly on empty,

Well obviously doing all that would exhaust his reserves.

and still perform two sealing jutsus before dying.

Okay. One of them he did before all that but still. Proof that it requires a lot of chakra?

Cut partial transformed B's tail too, up for debate if you think SM Naruto is >= that.

Taka Sasuke's chidori Eiso cut a fully transformed Bee tentacle though.

Dude. I asked you to cite feats that show Minato is superior to SM Naruto not general impressive feats for Naruto lol. All you did here were cite feats, most of which was done through a special technique that doesn't depend upon the strength, speed or any other general stat of the target. The rest were simply using certain jutsu. I don't see how they are supposed to prove Minato is more powerful.

Naruto used two regular rasengan, two sage art: super big rasengan, a rasenshuriken, and dropped out of sage mode.

Look even if I were to grant you this. It would only mean Minato has larger Chakra reserves, nothing more. Having greater chakra=/=grater strength unless you think Genin Naruto>>Kakashi.

"Rebuttal: I humbly ask the proponents of this argument to duly submit evidence for the SM caveat for that is a gross narrowing of what Fukasaku said."

That is a dishonest proposition if you are insinuating that Base Naruto is also > Minato.

I did not insinuate that though. It was Goku who did that.

 

[Golden_Void]

Okay..

True. However, chakra reserves can be increased through training so you cannot use that to claim that Minato has greater chakra reserves than say Teen Naruto or PA Naruto.

Well as I stated, for Naruto to summon Gamabunta, he needed to use Kurama's chakra because his normal reserves wouldn't be enough. The burden would be on you to prove base Part 2 Naruto has more chakra than Kurama chakra Part 1 Naruto.

Okay. Proof that it requires a lot of chakra?

Okay. The only remotely chakra extensive move in that fight was Level-2 Hirashin which is essentially nothing more than an FTG manouever with Rasengan.

Okay. Proof that it requires a lot of chakra?

Okay. That can be easily attributed to his large reserves as well as is precise chakra control.

Okay. Proof that it requires alot of chakra?

One frog... Proof that it requires alot of chakra?

Well obviously doing all that would exhaust his reserves.

Okay. One of them he did before all that but still. Proof that it requires a lot of chakra?

Minato summons Gamabunta and looks relatively fine. His conversation with Gamabunta provides context. He needed to park Gamabunta on Kurama briefly so he could gather the chakra required to teleport Kurama and his bijuu dama. The fact that he summoned Gamabunta so that Kurama could be immobilized so he could gather the chakra to perform FTG implies Minato was not gathering additional chakra for FTG because he summoned Gamabunta.

Immediately after teleporting Kurama, Minato states his chakra is almost drained. Teleporting Kurama brought his chakra levels from low to nearly empty, so yes, using FTG on something of that magnitude is chakra costly, and he did it twice along with various other jutsu.

A convincing argument could even be made that since Minato clearly taxes his chakra levels by teleporting massive objects - greater than the chakra it took him to summon Gamabunta which required Naruto to use Kurama's chakra and gave Jiraiya difficulty, it makes sense why it takes three jonin to transport even one person using the same technique.

----
For reference, Naruto training in summoning jutsu for three weeks with low chakra could only manage a frog, an increase from a tadpole. Jiraiya's typical summon is only this big.

Given the fact that shiki fujin seals souls and souls are tied to chakra (Kurama being a chakra soul and Minato sealing half of him reducing 50% of his energy), I would imagine the jutsu uses a significant amount of chakra.

Taka Sasuke's chidori Eiso cut a fully transformed Bee tentacle though.

Dude. I asked you to cite feats that show Minato is superior to SM Naruto not general impressive feats for Naruto lol. All you did here were cite feats, most of which was done through a special technique that doesn't depend upon the strength, speed or any other general stat of the target. The rest were simply using certain jutsu. I don't see how they are supposed to prove Minato is more powerful.

Using a jutsu. Minato used physical strength. What feats do SM Naruto has that are comparable? He only beat one path with physical strength, and the fact that he could go h2h with deva path in base form says more about the physical strength of the deva path than his tanking kicks from SM Naruto.

Look even if I were to grant you this. It would only mean Minato has larger Chakra reserves, nothing more. Having greater chakra=/=grater strength unless you think Genin Naruto>>Kakashi.

There is a positive correlation between higher chakra levels and stronger characters. It's the reason why Zabuza was shocked about Naruto while fighting Kakashi, and the purpose of the Juubi's chakra being likened to becoming its own planet, or the reason Tobirama had everyone scared when he was flexing his chakra. Obviously, chakra control dictates the final output though. This concept is the premise of Jiraiya's training with Naruto. A reductive statement like this excludes abilities such as skill, technique, chakra control, etc., but Naruto's chakra is objectively higher than Kakashi's.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Spoiler

But yeah, despite the fact that I asked multiple staff but not even one is willing to ping the staff suggests that this thread is going nowhere so yep. I am done. At least most from the other forums agree with me.

Thy glorious conquest hath been completed!

Also r u sure about that? Most places I've seen ppl say Minato~V2 Ay/KCM Naruto/KCM2 Naruto. The lowest I've seen is Minato~V1 Ay and Minato<PA SM Naruto, there are VERY, VEEEEEEEEEEERY few ppl I've seen saying Minato~Base Ay

All in all, I won't say it was a waste of time since I did get to learn more about you and all your Minato conglomerates.
Kukukuku...Muahahaahahaah....Phase-1 complete.

Anyways this is technically completed but imma respond to some of ur points cause why not.

Statements of hype and portrayal are always possible. In this case, Jiraya is simply hyping up Tsunade and not comparing her to any specific shinobi unlike Ebisu but most importantly we know this is incorrect via actual feats and portrayal. Well, I am a bit iffy on that but that's for another day.

But he is, cause he's talking about how there's no other possibly candidate for 5th Hokage, and he was suggested for that.

Absolutely. Its just that Kishimoto hasn't given us any reason to believe C, Fukasaku and Bee are any wrong. For the Jiraya statement, we clearly have feats to argue against. But if you can find some loophole in that statement or some way that remains consistent even with the contradictory feats and statements, I have no problem accepting it.

For Bee the Sannin scaling definitively proves Taka Sasuke~Minato wrong and you've already agreed to that.

That Kakashi could be easily judging based on what he knows of the guy from when he was in the Anbu. Itachi shinden shows us that before being made captain of his own team under Danzo, he was initially a part of Kakashi's Anbu unit.

Even then 3T Anbu Itachi~3T Shisui~Danzo~MS Sasuke~SM Naruto. Mind you this is all stuff accepted on their profiles, it's not just my opinion. Also u could argue Kakashi read Itachi's strength with his Sharingan kinda like how Sasuke did with Kaguya.

Yeah, I don't think 7th gate Guy has Juudara pressuring power right at BOS.

Sure but do you think he's below Base Ay?

The part from "But Raikage..." would prove you wrong, though. It means until then he was talking of an Ay who did not manipulate Raiton ie. Base.

But he's saying Ay~Minato is why it's impressive they're keeping up. Also said right after they're keeping up well that Sasuke's Sharingan won't be able to keep up cause he's using Raiton chakra so he's just being kinda weird. They're keeping up well, but the strongest on the team can't keep up? You could argue Cee means that Ay's mind is processing too fast for genjutsu to work on him given that Sasuke tried that right before the statement, and that's why he's saying 'But he has LCM so the Sharingan won't be effective.'

LOL. Referencing the same page is nowhere near enough evidence to suggest what you claim especially when there is contextual evidence suggesting otherwise within the manga. What makes this even more hilarious is the fact that they don't even reference the same panel but rather the panel two panels away from the concerned panel lol. If the book had the image of Fukasaku's statement or that of Naruto resembling Minato and Jiraya, that would have made a more compelling evidence. Here it can be easily argued that since the caption talks of SM mastery, they showed an image showing Naruto's sage features very clearly so as to emphasise his lack of toad features.

No, it's not enough evidence to definitively prove it, but it IS enough to add support to that interpretation. And it's really not "hillarious" that it's not showing the same panel. Kishimoto could've wanted to show Naruto cause the statement is talking about him, so he just chose the Naruto panel closest to the surpassing statement.

And yes, there is contextual evidence, but if you want my spin on it, Kishimoto might've been thinking about SM Naruto>Minato at that time, but later he decided he wanted to keep Minato relevant for longer, so he's using the databook to tell readers that that statement doesn't mean SM Naruto>Minato. Would also explain why he just decided to hand Minato SM for one useless moment when there was no implication of that prior and Minato didn't even mention him having SM when seeing Naruto use it or suggest/try using BSM. Cause Kishimoto realized making Minato have SM would be a way to cover that statement up, and it also explains the rather lousy explanation of him never using SM.

It's also consistent as Kishimoto has stated that he plans things as he goes.

Those statements are from Naruto and Kakashi prior to Sm and the databook that has no knowledge on the more powerful characters and still leaves room open for shinobi who are already stronger than Minato.

Wdym the databook doesn't have knowledge on more powerful characters? Obito and Pain had already been shown, and Pain had already had his battle with Jiraiya. Sasuke vs Itachi had also happened.

Incorrect, he only needed to flick the kunai. That only requires him to move his hand via wrist movement. The angular momentum of the kunai would carry it as high as we see in canon. You can even perform this experiment in real life and achieve the same result without moving your hand much. That by no means requires him to have V2 levels of speed. I don't how else to phrase it but you are blatantly wrong that you need greater or comparable combat speed to perform such a feat.

Yes, and he needs to flick his wrist more than 2 cm to do that, while Ay needed to travel 2 cm to hit Minato. If you flick your wrist rn, you'll see you move a couple cm.

Well, the anime is non-canon and when alternate interpretations than the anime exist, we cannot use it over the others.

Not fully non-canon. https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:M3X/Naruto:_Naruto_dodged_Light_Fang

I already addressed this in my large post.

That doesn't work because CM2 Sasuke is accepted as High 7-A while 3T Taka Sasuke is baseline 7-A. To make this argument you're also gonna have to make a CRT for that. There is already a massive accepted difference between Base and CM2. And the same goes for Orochimaru>CM2 Sasuke. So yeah, Minato>Younger Hiruzen>Orochimaru>CM2 Sasuke~1.4 Gigatons while 3T Taka Sasuke is 100 Megatons.

I don't see any issue here. I don't know what's wrong with you.

Jonin Minato could indeed be inferior to Hokage Minato but we can't quantify that difference even if he believe Hokage is superior, he best we can put him is relative to/superior to Jonin. We can't do anything more without a concrete scaling for the Hokage variant. However this does not apply to Edo Minato for we know he got about 2 decades of training and experience and his feats in the war corroborate to that. Edo Hokage being weaker than their alive counterparts is a deduction. Tobirama says that they have been brought back close to their original power and for most of the Hokages that original power was the power they had before they died, for Minato however, he got the opportunity to enhance his original power even after death. So, that doesn't apply in Minato's context.

Minato got years of fighting and training between the last time Bee saw him and his prime, so same logic works. And again, ALL of the Hokage were sealed by the Reaper Death Seal, so by this train of logic, ALL of them should've gotten much stronger. You can't just argue Minato alone got much stronger while the other Hokage were stagnant.

No his feats in the war don't show him having 2 decades of extra training With that much time he definitely would've mastered SM and his base stats would've become God Tier. KCM Minato would've soloed the war. Tbh outside of his TSO/8GG feats, there's really no better feats he shows in base as an Edo than when he was alive. A lot of his showings just support the level he was at when alive.