Minato vs Tobirama

[MinatoSparkle]

The infamous duel between the masters of FTG. Who wins? Alive versions for both and speed equalized. Battle is in a large forest that starts in a wide clearing, with a distance of 20m between them.

Scaling Chains:
Minato~>V2 Ay>>V1 Ay~>KCM Naruto
Tobirama>Edo Tobirama~/>EMS Sasuke~MKCM Naruto>KCM Naruto

The Yellow Flash: 7

The Inventor: 0

Hashirama solos lol: 0

 

[Soulgizmo]

Minato because uh tobirama didn't proform as well against madara as he did
also because minato just has better jutsus to bring here. rasengan >> most water release jutsu

 

[MinatoSparkle]

I'm not sure that's sufficient reasoning for a vote? Could you elaborate?

 

[Soulgizmo]

I suppose in terms of skill it's what separated the 2

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Howso?

 

[DavidTPPM]

Minato is more skilled with ftg but what's stopping Tobirama from just stomping with paper bombs? He also has better moveset with long range techniques so that's another advantage.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Minato is more skilled with ftg but what's stopping Tobirama from just stomping with paper bombs? He also has better moveset with long range techniques so that's another advantage.

Doesn't have TPB in alive key

 

[DavidTPPM]

Doesn't have TPB in alive key

Wait why ? Did people assume he magically learned his "special attack" as an edo tensei or something?

 

[thesurvivlist]

Wait why ? Did people assume he magically learned his "special attack" as an edo tensei or something?

That's actually pretty weird since I'm pretty sure he made it so when he uses edo tensei, his edo tensei's would use TPB. Unless of course the reasoning is that it would damage him if he uses it but that would be circumvented through the use of shadow clone.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Wait why ? Did people assume he magically learned his "special attack" as an edo tensei or something?

No it's because he needs to have Edo bodies prepared to use while alive, though it should be counted as something in his key with prep time

 

[SlendVeny]

Wait why ? Did people assume he magically learned his "special attack" as an edo tensei or something?

Because he doesn't carry around and kill random people in his standard tactics.

 

[Stryker861]

ill coment here tommorow on my thoughts

 

[DavidTPPM]

Because he doesn't carry around and kill random people in his standard tactics.

Why would he need to kill new people every time? Hiruzens statement alone proves he's been using it which means he already has some unknown edo tensei(s) which he can summon.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Why would he need to kill new people every time? Hiruzens statement alone proves he's been using it which means he already has some unknown edo tensei(s) which he can summon.

You'd have to prove he keeps them prepared after he uses them, and anyways that's a topic for a CRT not a VSB

 

[SlendVeny]

Why would he need to kill new people every time? Hiruzens statement alone proves he's been using it which means he already has some unknown edo tensei(s) which he can summon.

He's using it doesn't mean he's using it at will.

 

[DavidTPPM]

He's using it doesn't mean he's using it at will.

How else is he using it? Accidentally?

 

[SlendVeny]

How else is he using it? Accidentally?

With preparation, obviously.

 

[thesurvivlist]

With preparation, obviously.

Can't he use it with shadow clone?

 

[SlendVeny]

Can't he use it with shadow clone?

Can he?

 

[thesurvivlist]

Can he?

He probably can considering a person whose alive can do it, its just that they'll die which would be circumvented by the use of a shadow clone.

 

[SlendVeny]

He probably can considering a person whose alive can do it, its just that they'll die which would be circumvented by the use of a shadow clone.

Wait, but then it wouldn't be mutually multiplying

 

[thesurvivlist]

Wait, but then it wouldn't be mutually multiplying

The tags have seals on them which allows them to multiply.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

He probably can considering a person whose alive can do it, its just that they'll die which would be circumvented by the use of a shadow clone.

Idt the databook would talk about that as a weakness if the fix was that simple

 

[thesurvivlist]

Idt the databook would talk about that as a weakness if the fix was that simple

Just because there is a fix, doesn't mean its not a weakness.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Just because there is a fix, doesn't mean its not a weakness.

The databook literally says death is inevitable if you cast it while alive

 

[thesurvivlist]

The databook literally says death is inevitable if you cast it while alive

Well, technically if the shadow clone does it, the clone dies therefore the statement is true. I mean, when you think about it, most ninjas in the series don't even use shadow clone.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Bruh, Tobirama is the only user, it has no reason to refer to other people. And a clone doesn't "die," it's dissipated.

 

[thesurvivlist]

Bruh, Tobirama is the only user, it has no reason to refer to other people. And a clone doesn't "die," it's dissipated.

It technically dies. Even ignoring that, the data book isn't the end all be all of information. So unless you give me a really good reason aside from the data book saying it, I'm pretty sure the shadow clone can be used in place of the actual user. Though I still think Minato is going to win because the TDP isn't instant meaning Minato can just teleport out of TDP range.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

It technically dies. Even ignoring that, the data book isn't the end all be all of information. So unless you give me a really good reason aside from the data book saying it, I'm pretty sure the shadow clone can be used in place of the actual user. Though I still think Minato is going to win because the TDP isn't instant meaning Minato can just teleport out of TDP range.

Only if they're counted as alive. And if there isn't manga evidence that contradicts it, then yes the databook is a reliable source. What's better, using the databook or using headcanon?

How does he win (not arguing, but just saying who wins isn't enough to be counted as a vote unfortunately)?

 

[thesurvivlist]

Only if they're counted as alive. And if there isn't manga evidence that contradicts it, then yes the databook is a reliable source. What's better, using the databook or using headcanon?

How does he win (not arguing, but just saying who wins isn't enough to be counted as a vote unfortunately)?

Arguing over TDP is something that won't matter because Minato can just teleport out of it so I'm gonna stop.

Now im just waiting for more people to give reasons on why tobirama or Minato is going to win. The fight is probably gonna be decided by one decisive hit.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

I mean ig I can list an argument for each side.

They're definitely comparable in AP, but Minato's scaling chain is slightly better, so he probably has an AP advantage which obviously helps. Minato could use his superior skill in FTG to catch Tobirama slipping and either mark him which basically equals death or slam a Rasengan into him FTG level 2 style. He could summon toads to assist in overwhelming Tobirama, or stall him while he prepares a sealing jutsu. Sage Mode would also be a pretty decisive factor if he enters it. Then he'd be significantly stronger and faster than Tobirama, and would basically stomp.

As for Tobirama, he can make Minato's teleporting less detrimental by keeping a distance and fighting with long range elemental ninjutsu. He's also more experienced and you could argue he has greater stamina, which could help in outlasting. If they fight in cqc, Tobirama might have an advantage as he has a sword opposed to Minato just having his kunai. He also has that weird soul transfer jutsu he wanted to use on Sasuke.

 

[Stryker861]

Was gonna comment today but forgot about it, I'll do it tommrow

 

[DavidTPPM]

With preparation, obviously.

What preparation? I don't understand this argument. I've seen it a bunch but nobody ever explained it. What prep does he need to wave handsigns and stick kunai in the summoned edo? Does Naruto need prep time to summon gamabunta?

 

[DavidTPPM]

Either way, GokuSparkle is right, this is a topic for a CRT not a vs thread.

As for the battle without TPB, I don't really see how Minatos AP chain is better. The chain gets Minato above ekcm1 while Tobiramas gets him above mkcm1. Minatos only advantage seems to be his better ftg, but even that didn't seem to really translate to 1v1 battles

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Either way, GokuSparkle is right, this is a topic for a CRT not a vs thread.

As for the battle without TPB, I don't really see how Minatos AP chain is better. The chain gets Minato above ekcm1 while Tobiramas gets him above mkcm1. Minatos only advantage seems to be his better ftg, but even that didn't seem to really translate to 1v1 battles

Minato is 3 above KCM1 while Tobirama is 2-3 above. And how does better skill with their signature moves not translate to 1v1 battles??

 

[DavidTPPM]

Minato is 3 above KCM1 while Tobirama is 2-3 above.

That doesn't really accurately scale them to each other as long as each tier isn't quantifiably equal. You can easily make arguments for Tobirama over Minato by scaling him to the statement that kcm2 Naruto has long surpassed Minato.

And how does better skill with their signature moves not translate to 1v1 battles??

You can be a "better fighter" because you know more martial arts, but that wouldn't mean you can implement them better in a fight.
The only thing we know Minato is better at in terms of FTG is that he could move the alliance simultaneously but Tobirama couldn't.

 

[SlendVeny]

What preparation? I don't understand this argument. I've seen it a bunch but nobody ever explained it. What prep does he need to wave handsigns and stick kunai in the summoned edo? Does Naruto need prep time to summon gamabunta?

You need a sacrifice for edo tensei

 

[Stryker861]

i think tobirama takes this, tobirama has access to a bigger arsenal of jutstu and likely more battle experice as he was rasised in war (minato was no slouch in this department either tho). he has deffensive and offensive water style, genjustu, clones, flying raigin slice which he can use to negate the equalized speed and land a fatal hit.

 

[DavidTPPM]

You need a sacrifice for edo tensei

To create the edo, not to summon it

 

[MinatoSparkle]

That doesn't really accurately scale them to each other as long as each tier isn't quantifiably equal. You can easily make arguments for Tobirama over Minato by scaling him to the statement that kcm2 Naruto has long surpassed Minato.

Sure but Minato does have a higher assertion. And what??? Tobirama doesn't scale to KCM2 Naruto at all, and especially not MKCM2 Naruto, so he's irrelevant.

You can be a "better fighter" because you know more martial arts, but that wouldn't mean you can implement them better in a fight.
The only thing we know Minato is better at in terms of FTG is that he could move the alliance simultaneously but Tobirama couldn't.

He's also shown more versatility and usage of FTG. He spreads kunai across the battlefield but Tobirama doesn't, he has FTG level 2, he has Guiding Thunder, Reciprocal Round Robin, a lot more variants and it's clearly a bigger key part of Minato's arsenal than Tobirama's.

i think tobirama takes this, tobirama has access to a bigger arsenal of jutstu and likely more battle experice as he was rasised in war (minato was no slouch in this department either tho). he has deffensive and offensive water style, genjustu, clones, flying raigin slice which he can use to negate the equalized speed and land a fatal hit.

Counted, although in the manga he's not actually shown to have genjutsu, Minato has clones too, and don't think Tobirama's FTG slice is better than all the FTG tricks Minato has (nor do I think it would land given Minato's Relativistic reactions)