Minato vs Tobirama

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

I'm voting Minato FRA.

 

[Stryker861]

Counted, although in the manga he's not actually shown to have genjutsu, Minato has clones too, and don't think Tobirama's FTG slice is better than all the FTG tricks Minato has (nor do I think it would land given Minato's Relativistic reactions)

Isent their base speed equalized? If not tobiramas base is relativistic all around anyway so ftg slice should still be able to land

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Isent their base speed equalized? If not tobiramas base is relativistic all around anyway so ftg slice should still be able to land

In speed equalized matches the faster character's speed is divided to match the slower characters' combat speeds but proportional differences in movement and reaction speed stay. So Tobirama would be Sub-Rel all around while Minato is still Sub-Rel with Rel reactions.

 

[Stryker861]

In speed equalized matches the faster character's speed is divided to match the slower characters' combat speeds but proportional differences in movement and reaction speed stay. So Tobirama would be Sub-Rel all around while Minato is still Sub-Rel with Rel reactions.

Thats......
Bro just wanted to give minato a dub Minato fra ig?

 

[Nierre]

lmao minato fra

tobi gonna struggle touching minato

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Thats......
Bro just wanted to give minato a dub Minato fra ig?

What do you want me to do when they have different speed ratings and Minato's one of the rare characters that has way higher RS than CS

 

[DavidTPPM]

Sure but Minato does have a higher assertion. And what??? Tobirama doesn't scale to KCM2 Naruto at all, and especially not MKCM2 Naruto, so he's irrelevant.

Huh?? Tobirama has high end relativity to someone who has outright superiority over kcm1 Naruto. Minato has high end relativity to someone who has high end relativity to kcm1 Naruto. Also I wonder where does base alive Minato >~ v2 Ay even come from. So that's that for "higher assertion". And mkcm1 Naruto has shown speed relative to kcm2 Naruto. It would be only logical to say his AP scales to this as well.

He's also shown more versatility and usage of FTG. He spreads kunai across the battlefield but Tobirama doesn't, he has FTG level 2, he has Guiding Thunder, Reciprocal Round Robin, a lot more variants and it's clearly a bigger key part of Minato's arsenal than Tobirama's.

How? As far as I remember Tobirama either replicated or outdid any combat feat with FTG that Minato did. And that says a lot given the fact that Tobis only opponent on screen was JUUBITO

 

[DavidTPPM]

In speed equalized matches the faster character's speed is divided to match the slower characters' combat speeds but proportional differences in movement and reaction speed stay. So Tobirama would be Sub-Rel all around while Minato is still Sub-Rel with Rel reactions.

That's such a goofy rule wtf . So Tobiramas reaction speed gets nerfed and Minatos doesn't just because the people Tobi fought weren't quantifiably an entire tier above him?

I was going to vote Tobirama but with this Minato kinda claps lol

 

[SlendVeny]

In speed equalized matches the faster character's speed is divided to match the slower characters' combat speeds but proportional differences in movement and reaction speed stay. So Tobirama would be Sub-Rel all around while Minato is still Sub-Rel with Rel reactions.

Shouldn't it mean the one with higher reactions got nerfed, and the combat speed stay the same.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Huh?? Tobirama has high end relativity to someone who has outright superiority over kcm1 Naruto. Minato has high end relativity to someone who has high end relativity to kcm1 Naruto. Also I wonder where does base alive Minato >~ v2 Ay even come from. So that's that for "higher assertion". And mkcm1 Naruto has shown speed relative to kcm2 Naruto. It would be only logical to say his AP scales to this as well.

V2 Ay is far superior to KCM Naruto (at least on this site). He's far stronger than V1 Ay who overpowered Naruto and was going to kill him in one punch.

Because Ay stated that no shinobi surpassed Minato.

...1, no he didn't, MKCM Naruto's speed feats are very overrated, and 2 he still only scales to 4 Gigatons.

How? As far as I remember Tobirama either replicated or outdid any combat feat with FTG that Minato did. And that says a lot given the fact that Tobis only opponent on screen was JUUBITO

He matched a mentally nerfed Minato.

That's such a goofy rule wtf . So Tobiramas reaction speed gets nerfed and Minatos doesn't just because the people Tobi fought weren't quantifiably an entire tier above him?

Ye

I was going to vote Tobirama but with this Minato kinda claps lol

I mean I kinda agree but idt it's as much of an end all be all as people make it out to be. Tobirama could still try catching Minato offguard, making his superior reactions moot.

Shouldn't it mean the one with higher reactions got nerfed, and the combat speed stay the same.

Nah. Although now that I'm reading it again, I wonder if the speed advantage against a faster character rule applies here. It doesn't boost Minato's physical speed, allowing him to blitz Tobirama like in the example provided, but it is a disadvantage against some speed value that Tobirama wouldn't normally have. So hm...

 

[DavidTPPM]

V2 Ay is far superior to KCM Naruto (at least on this site). He's far stronger than V1 Ay who overpowered Naruto and was going to kill him in one punch.

The V2 stuff makes sense. The v1 doesn't. He didn't "outpunch" Naruto. Naruto never tried hitting Ay. Although the v1 stuff only gets him as far as Narutos taijutsu AP and kcm1 Naruto was heavily relying on ninjutsu for attack power.

Because Ay stated that no shinobi surpassed Minato.

That was referring to back in the 3rd shinobi war so it's not really relevant to WA characters.

...1, no he didn't, MKCM Naruto's speed feats are very overrated, and 2 he still only scales to 4 Gigatons.

Mkcm1 Naruto dodged Obito offguard. Obito could match kcm2 Naruto and even blitz him with wood release. There's not much to overrate there. And yeah it's still only 4 gigatons, same way Minato only scales to the same number. I'm simply addressing the "higher assertion" claim.

He matched a mentally nerfed Minato.

I don't think we understood each other. I'm basically saying Tobirama pretty much replicated every FTG skill feat Minato did in combat. I'm not talking about physical stats.

I mean I kinda agree but idt it's as much of an end all be all as people make it out to be. Tobirama could still try catching Minato offguard, making his superior reactions moot.

I don't know how far into Sub-Rel and relativistic are those values but if we go with baseline then Minatos reactions are literally 10x higher than Tobirama can move + Minato can sense chakra iirc. The reaction speed advantage would be massive and make catching him offguard essentially impossible. Especially with Minatos IQ.

Although now that I'm reading it again, I wonder if the speed advantage against a faster character rule applies here. It doesn't boost Minato's physical speed, allowing him to blitz Tobirama like in the example provided, but it is a disadvantage against some speed value that Tobirama wouldn't normally have. So hm...

It should since Minatos best argument here is the reaction speed advantage. But I'm not completely sure on the speed equalization rules so I can't really say.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

The V2 stuff makes sense. The v1 doesn't. He didn't "outpunch" Naruto. Naruto never tried hitting Ay. Although the v1 stuff only gets him as far as Narutos taijutsu AP and kcm1 Naruto was heavily relying on ninjutsu for attack power.

He did consistently knock him back though. And Tobirama only scales to MKCM physically anyways.

That was referring to back in the 3rd shinobi war so it's not really relevant to WA characters.

He's talking about how his ability is still unparalelled, and that's what the site accepts.

Mkcm1 Naruto dodged Obito offguard. Obito could match kcm2 Naruto and even blitz him with wood release. There's not much to overrate there. And yeah it's still only 4 gigatons, same way Minato only scales to the same number. I'm simply addressing the "higher assertion" claim.

He reacted to his Kamui falling, which has no connection to the speed of Wood Style.

I'm saying you thinking MKCM scales to KCM2 is irrelevant since KCM2 scales to 21 GT and MKCM doesn't.

I don't think we understood each other. I'm basically saying Tobirama pretty much replicated every FTG skill feat Minato did in combat. I'm not talking about physical stats.

Yeah but being mentally nerfed is also gonna affect your thinking. I don't think Tobirama showed anything more impressive than Minato at his best.

I don't know how far into Sub-Rel and relativistic are those values but if we go with baseline then Minatos reactions are literally 10x higher than Tobirama can move + Minato can sense chakra iirc. The reaction speed advantage would be massive and make catching him offguard essentially impossible. Especially with Minatos IQ.

He needs to specifically activate sensing, it's not something always passively on.

 

[ZKillerz]

I understand minato being superior to v2 ay in speed but why ap?

Voting tobirama for now

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

I understand minato being superior to v2 ay in speed but why ap?

They traded blows many times, and Ay views him as the most powerful Shinobi he's ever faced. It's a ">~" situation, as it stands rn, I believe.

 

[ZKillerz]

They traded blows many times, and Ay views him as the most powerful Shinobi he's ever faced. It's a ">~" situation, as it stands rn, I believe.

Yes jonin minato and pre raikage ay
Ay never outright calls him the strongest shinobi, he simply calls him the finest. Which could be due to many things that dont correlate to ap

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Yes jonin minato and pre raikage ay
Ay never outright calls him the strongest shinobi, he simply calls him the finest. Which could be due to many things that dont correlate to ap

In the raws he says there were no shinobi who surpassed Minato

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Yes jonin minato and pre raikage ay

Irrelevant for 2 reasons.
1) pre-Raikage Ay is also Bijū level.
2) Raikage Ay still clearly believes that Minato is on his level, given the way he speaks about him.

Ay never outright calls him the strongest shinobi, he simply calls him the finest. Which could be due to many things that dont correlate to ap

We've already had an extensive discussion regarding this statement, and the context of the raws points to Ay believing him to be the strongest. The translation and discussion are even linked in his profile, if you want to check that out.

Anyway, this is a VS thread, not a CRT. We go by what's accepted on the profiles, we don't try to argue for something new.

 

[ZKillerz]

In the raws he says there were no shinobi who surpassed Minato

Its obvious that statement isn't referring to every single stat, its probably simply referring to his speed or general skill as a shinobi
Regardless you cant use admiration statements to scale someone's ap

 

[ZKillerz]

Irrelevant for 2 reasons.
1) pre-Raikage Ay is also Bijū level.
2) Raikage Ay still clearly believes that Minato is on his level, given the way he speaks about him.

We've already had an extensive discussion regarding this statement, and the context of the raws points to Ay believing him to be the strongest. The translation and discussion are even linked in his profile, if you want to check that out.

Anyway, this is a VS thread, not a CRT. We go by what's accepted on the profiles, we don't try to argue for something new.

If you had that discussion then I wont bring it up again out of courtesy

 

[ZKillerz]

He did consistently knock him back though. And Tobirama only scales to MKCM physically anyways.

This is not a very good argument, yes ay did land a punch on naruto who was simply trying to run around him without engaging in combat. So you cant use that to scale his physical ap over kcm1 naruto

He's talking about how his ability is still unparalelled, and that's what the site accepts.

So where do we put the limitations on this statement? Does this scale every single minato stat above every single jonin ay has encountered? Is minato more durable than ay's v2 cloak?

 

[MinatoSparkle]

This is not a very good argument, yes ay did land a punch on naruto who was simply trying to run around him without engaging in combat. So you cant use that to scale his physical ap over kcm1 naruto

But Naruto thought his punch was heavy, and the fact that Naruto was smacked such a distance is a feat. Also like Slayer said, that's something already on Ay's profile

So where do we put the limitations on this statement? Does this scale every single minato stat above every single jonin ay has encountered? Is minato more durable than ay's v2 cloak?

Uh...well his striking strength does scale to Ay's, and durability scales to striking strength. Though it doesn't specifically say he scales in dura, which might be because the lightning cloak is especially exceptional in durability. But even if I were to steelman ur arg that being superior =/= superiority in every stat, AP and speed are the two most basic essential stats there are, so Minato scaling in those areas is far from strange.

 

[ZKillerz]

I don't know how far into Sub-Rel and relativistic are those values but if we go with baseline then Minatos reactions are literally 10x higher than Tobirama can move + Minato can sense chakra iirc. The reaction speed advantage would be massive and make catching him offguard essentially impossible. Especially with Minatos IQ.

It should since Minatos best argument here is the reaction speed advantage. But I'm not completely sure on the speed equalization rules so I can't really say.

They should both have mental reaction speeds far above their own physical speed. Tobirama was capable of reacting to a live SM Rinnegan Madara, and Minato can react to Madara's TSO attacks (although I personally consider it an overrated feat). So either way they have more than enough reaction speed to teleport out of the way of each other's attacks. However I believe this is irrelevant due to speed equalization.

You might be wondering, then, why did I vote for Tobirama? It's because of Tobirama's insane lvl of chakra, which is better than what base Minato has shown so far. He's capable of scaring Suigetsu by weaving chakra through a single finger. Suigetsu is the same person who has been in front of literal Biju and Biju-level combatants like Ay. While base Minato also has insane lvls of chakra, its not as good as tobirama's imo.

 

[ZKillerz]

Uh...well his striking strength does scale to Ay's, and durability scales to striking strength. Though it doesn't specifically say he scales in dura, which might be because the lightning cloak is especially exceptional in durability. But even if I were to steelman ur arg that being superior =/= superiority in every stat, AP and speed are the two most basic essential stats there are, so Minato scaling in those areas is far from strange.

Durability can scale above striking strength. I know being superior doesn't mean your superior in every stat hence why I said minato doesn't have to scale above Ay's physical ap. We already acknowledged that his durability doesn't need to scale in order for him to be considered a superior ninja (whatever that means). So why do we automatically assume minato has susano busting lvls of physical ap? Why are we picking and choosing? I dont think your argument is as reasonable as your trying to make it seem.

 

[ZKillerz]

Durability can scale above striking strength. I know being superior doesn't mean your superior in every stat hence why I said minato doesn't have to scale above Ay's physical ap. We already acknowledged that his durability doesn't need to scale in order for him to be considered a superior ninja (whatever that means). So why do we automatically assume minato has susano busting lvls of physical ap? Why are we picking and choosing? I dont think your argument is as reasonable as your trying to make it seem.

Regardless this point doesn't matter that much since you guys already had a whole discussion about it

 

[MinatoSparkle]

They should both have mental reaction speeds far above their own physical speed. Tobirama was capable of reacting to a live SM Rinnegan Madara, and Minato can react to Madara's TSO attacks (although I personally consider it an overrated feat). So either way they have more than enough reaction speed to teleport out of the way of each other's attacks. However I believe this is irrelevant due to speed equalization.

I mean it's not irrelevant though, Minato does still have Relativistic reactions while Tobirama's reactions are lowered to Sub-Relativistic.

You might be wondering, then, why did I vote for Tobirama? It's because of Tobirama's insane lvl of chakra, which is better than what base Minato has shown so far. He's capable of scaring Suigetsu by weaving chakra through a single finger. Suigetsu is the same person who has been in front of literal Biju and Biju-level combatants like Ay. While base Minato also has insane lvls of chakra, its not as good as tobirama's imo.

Don't think releasing chakra is the same as existing with a certain level of chakra but that's a decent arg

Durability can scale above striking strength. I know being superior doesn't mean your superior in every stat hence why I said minato doesn't have to scale above Ay's physical ap. We already acknowledged that his durability doesn't need to scale in order for him to be considered a superior ninja (whatever that means). So why do we automatically assume minato has susano busting lvls of physical ap? Why are we picking and choosing? I dont think your argument is as reasonable as your trying to make it seem.

I mean that's pretty much how VSBW does scaling. When someone's stated to be stronger than someone else, it's assumed to refer to all stats unless otherwise specified, which I don't always agree with, but yeah. In this case, while I personally don't think Minato's punching or kicking as hard as V2 Ay, I think he can damage him with kunai slices (as implied in their battle) and Rasengans.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

while I personally don't think Minato's punching or kicking as hard as V2 Ay, I think he can damage him with kunai slices (as implied in their battle) and Rasengans.

Yeah, that's pretty much exactly what I think too ngl. I don't think there's a world in which Minato's physically superior to Ay. Like he ain't beating him at arm wrestling, a boxing match, or a wrestling match, but he's in a similar ballpark overall, and can definitely harm him with his attacks. If he couldn't, then their rivalry wouldn't make a lick of sense. Ay isn't about to gas up someone who can't even harm him lol.

 

[ZKillerz]

I mean it's not irrelevant though, Minato does still have Relativistic reactions while Tobirama's reactions are lowered to Sub-Relativistic.

Don't think releasing chakra is the same as existing with a certain level of chakra but that's a decent arg

I mean that's pretty much how VSBW does scaling. When someone's stated to be stronger than someone else, it's assumed to refer to all stats unless otherwise specified, which I don't always agree with, but yeah. In this case, while I personally don't think Minato's punching or kicking as hard as V2 Ay, I think he can damage him with kunai slices (as implied in their battle) and Rasengans.

But it would be because we equalized speed unless I'm missing something. Also why would Tobirama's reaction speed be sub-relativistic when he's stated to be faster than Sage Mode Hashirama and EMS Madara, who are relativistic characters? He also reacted to Sage Mode Rinnegan Madara, whom we also consider relativistic.

I agree. Hence why I didn't outright say that Tobirama has Bijuu levels of chakra reserves. However his chakra would still be above what those Bijuu level characters were capable of exerting, even if they did have higher reserves. Regardless Tobirama would need to have reserves capable of casually exerting more chakra than Bijuu level characters.

That's fair. As I said, I don't want to argue something that has already been settled.

 

[SlendVeny]

I mean that's pretty much how VSBW does scaling. When someone's stated to be stronger than someone else, it's assumed to refer to all stats unless otherwise specified, which I don't always agree with, but yeah.

No it isn't, we typically go for AP

 

[MinatoSparkle]

But it would be because we equalized speed unless I'm missing something. Also why would Tobirama's reaction speed be sub-relativistic when he's stated to be faster than Sage Mode Hashirama and EMS Madara, who are relativistic characters? He also reacted to Sage Mode Rinnegan Madara, whom we also consider relativistic.

I already talked about this.

In speed equalized matches the faster character's speed is divided to match the slower characters' combat speeds but proportional differences in movement and reaction speed stay. So Tobirama would be Sub-Rel all around while Minato is still Sub-Rel with Rel reactions.

I agree. Hence why I didn't outright say that Tobirama has Bijuu levels of chakra reserves. However his chakra would still be above what those Bijuu level characters were capable of exerting, even if they did have higher reserves. Regardless Tobirama would need to have reserves capable of casually exerting more chakra than Bijuu level characters.

I meant that those Bijuu level characters weren't flexing their chakra so regardless it wouldn't have the same effect.

No it isn't, we typically go for AP

And striking strength and durability at least

 

[ZKillerz]

I already talked about this.


I meant that those Bijuu level characters weren't flexing their chakra so regardless it wouldn't have the same effect.

And striking strength and durability at least

Sure but can you respond to my question as to why tobirama has subrel reaction speed?

That wasn't their intent sure, but that would happen as a byproduct of them using high density chakra attacks like bijuu dama's and ay's lightning cloak

I agree it doesn't have the same effect still a good feat

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Sure but can you respond to my question as to why tobirama has subrel reaction speed?

I mean in a speed equalized match. His reaction speed is nerfed by the same multiplier as his combat speed. Since both his CS and RS are Relativistic, in speed equalized they both get changed to Sub-Relativistic.

That wasn't their intent sure, but that would happen as a byproduct of them using high density chakra attacks like bijuu dama's and ay's lightning cloak

I agree it doesn't have the same effect still a good feat

Eh Suigetsu isn't a sensor so he shouldn't be able to actually sense the power of someone's chakra (it's a bit inconsistent but that does generally seem to be how it works), but Tobirama is actively sending his chakra out as shockwaves, so it'd be easier to feel how powerful he is.

 

[Shining_Cross]

Edo Madara's hand movement can move the Gunbai before KCM2 Naruto's speed reaches him. Edo Tobirama reacts to the speed of Alive Sage Madara's hand movement. Edo Madara < Alive Madara < Alive Sage Madara.

Therefore, Edo Tobirama is at the level of KCM2 Naruto. Minato can react to Madara's TSO, but Gaara and Kakashi can also do it, so I believe Tobirama can as well.

Obito only hit Tobirama's clone.

Tobirama can use Tandem Paper Bomb with his clone. And Minato himself is amazed by Tobirama's power when he lifts one finger. This shows that Minato himself cannot do that.

I vote for Tobirama.

 

[ZKillerz]

Eh Suigetsu isn't a sensor so he shouldn't be able to actually sense the power of someone's chakra (it's a bit inconsistent but that does generally seem to be how it works)

I dont think you need to specifically be a sensory type in order to sense a large amount of chakra, the fact suigetsu could tell how much chakra tobirama was weaving through a single finger is enough proof.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Edo Madara's hand movement can move the Gunbai before KCM2 Naruto's speed reaches him. Edo Tobirama reacts to the speed of Alive Sage Madara's hand movement. Edo Madara < Alive Madara < Alive Sage Madara.

Therefore, Edo Tobirama is at the level of KCM2 Naruto. Minato can react to Madara's TSO, but Gaara and Kakashi can also do it, so I believe Tobirama can as well.

Obito only hit Tobirama's clone.

Speed is equalized

Tobirama can use Tandem Paper Bomb with his clone. And Minato himself is amazed by Tobirama's power when he lifts one finger. This shows that Minato himself cannot do that.

I vote for Tobirama.

That's never been shown stated or implied. And as has been discussed, Alive Tobirama currently doesn't have access to TPB in a standard fight so you can't use that. And no that doesn't prove it at all. You can be impressed by someone and not be inferior. Like Edo Madara against Naruto.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

I dont think you need to specifically be a sensory type in order to sense a large amount of chakra, the fact suigetsu could tell how much chakra tobirama was weaving through a single finger is enough proof.

But I'm saying it could just be that Tobirama's sending his chakra out as a shockwave (which is suggested by the walls actually cracking), so he doesn't need to be able to sense it, he can physically feel it.

 

[ZKillerz]

But I'm saying it could just be that Tobirama's sending his chakra out as a shockwave (which is suggested by the walls actually cracking), so he doesn't need to be able to sense it, he can physically feel it.

as a shockwave? Idk about that, tobirama simply weaved his chakra through his finger and suigetsu sensed that.
also the walls only broke due to hashirama

 

[ZKillerz]

Speed is equalized

That's never been shown stated or implied. And as has been discussed, Alive Tobirama currently doesn't have access to TPB in a standard fight so you can't use that. And no that doesn't prove it at all. You can be impressed by someone and not be inferior. Like Edo Madara against Naruto.

Yeah I dont agree with his reasoning
But I haven't seen any good reasons for minato winning either
Tobirama has better chakra feats so I guess he has the edge there, either way its pretty close

 

[ZKillerz]

as a shockwave? Idk about that, tobirama simply weaved his chakra through his finger and suigetsu sensed that.
also the walls only broke due to hashirama

Also hashirama refers to this instance as tobirama simply raising his chakra lvl which further supports the idea that all he's doing is spiking his chakra to bijuu lvls of output

 

[Shining_Cross]

Speed is equalized

That's never been shown stated or implied. And as has been discussed, Alive Tobirama currently doesn't have access to TPB in a standard fight so you can't use that. And no that doesn't prove it at all. You can be impressed by someone and not be inferior. Like Edo Madara against Naruto.

You seem to be saying that Naruto's Shadow Clone can't use Rasengan.

Or are you trying to say that Tobirama discovered that jutsu while he was in the WA? No, Hiruzen knew that jutsu, so it had already been created since a long time ago.

Provide a scan where Madara is impressed by Naruto in term of power. As far as I know, he only said what Naruto did, like saying, "That Naruto kid shared the Nine-Tails' chakra with everyone.".

 

[MinatoSparkle]

as a shockwave? Idk about that, tobirama simply weaved his chakra through his finger and suigetsu sensed that.
also the walls only broke due to hashirama

Oh yeah, guess Tobirama ain't quite Wall level But really, the fact that Hashirama doing the same thing as Tobirama but better cracked the walls does suggest it wasn't simply powering up and nothing else. It was probably at least somewhat physical.

Also hashirama refers to this instance as tobirama simply raising his chakra lvl which further supports the idea that all he's doing is spiking his chakra to bijuu lvls of output

That's Tobirama talking to Hashirama.

You seem to be saying that Naruto's Shadow Clone can't use Rasengan.

Or are you trying to say that Tobirama discovered that jutsu while he was in the WA? No, Hiruzen knew that jutsu, so it had already been created since a long time ago.

No, just that Tobirama's clone can't use TPB on itself. I know he created it, he just used it on Edo Tenseis while alive, which he doesn't have access to as standard equipment on his profile.

Provide a scan where Madara is impressed by Naruto in term of power. As far as I know, he only said what Naruto did, like saying, "That Naruto kid shared the Nine-Tails' chakra with everyone.".