• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

Bleach - Passive Hax from Reiatsu

@Knight

That's the issue, other examples of Reiatsu Crush, even from comparable or more powerful characters don't have a disintegration aura to them.
 
Unfortunately, this only applies to Aizen, Aizen is the kind of person who likes to demonstrate power, unlike others.
 
It's the same as saying that, Aizen uses his power in character no longer ichigo, not even if it applied to other characters, they would not normally use.
 
Anyway, on the matter of Hax obviously only the hax they demonstrated resistance over, and not every Hax in the Bleach Verse.
 
Ichigo slows down his reiatsu for others to feel, since Aizen may or may not do so depending on her ego at the moment.
 
Ichigo proved to resist kido, even having little reiatsu and no control over her, for example, he resisted Rukia's paralysis, the seal of Hachi and Tessai.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
@Knight

That's the issue, other examples of Reiatsu Crush, even from comparable or more powerful characters don't have a disintegratio aura to them.
Click to expand...


I'm talking about the status effects. That should be a basic application, but Aizen has been the only one to vaporize other beings. Since I'm late here would you mind summarizing the accepted changes?
 
Knightofannihilation666 said:
.
I'm talking about the status effects. That should be a basic application, but Aizen has been the only one to vaporize other beings. Since I'm late here would you mind summarizing the accepted changes?
Click to expand...
  • Reiatsu Sight
  • Crushing / Stunning via Reiatsu (Isn't this already on the profile though?)
  • Disintegration Aura to Aizen
  • Soul Destruction to Aizen (Again, isn't this already on the profiles?)
  • Resistance to the Hax they've shown to resist
 
Aizen is the only one imo that has such master control over Reiatsu. I can see it being scaled to SK Yhwach as that Yhwach never interacts with anyone besides Aizen and Ichigo.

Ichigo shouldn't scale cause Ichigo still doesn't have great control over his own EoS powers. He even notes he needed Yhwach's help to get kicking.
 
He has control over his reiatsu post training, he just needed his reiatsu to wake up his Quincy side.
 
It's clearly not common sense in this case, because the reason why Aizen can do that is attributed to his Raw Power (Reiatsu) and not a special quality he has. The more rational thing to do is draw parallels where the parallels fit. Just because one character is the only one to do it doesn't always mean that the ability is exclusive to them by default, especially if there are other examples.

Aizen would probably state that him disintegrating people would be unique to him if it was— Bleach characters explaining that sort of thing isn't unprecedented either. And the only reason why there were no examples is because no one that weak ever walked towards someone as strong as Aizen. You're not exactly finding evidence to prove your claim that Aizen is special in this regard— you're trying to make us prove you're wrong by posting evidence. Problem is, not only are you fighting against a claim, but you're trying to support your own.

What evidence is there to say that this ability is exclusive to Aizen besides the Non-sequitor of "Aizen is the only person shown to do it"? While that does make it clear that we only see him doing it, it doesn't confirm that he's the only one who can, which seems to be your claim.
 
@Amexim

You wrote a bunch of stuff, but honestly no. Giving a power solely to the one who actually demonstrates it is simply sensible. I can see Soul King Yhwach having it, but everyone with Reiatsu Crush is simply innacurate to the manga proper, when we have no examples or showings.

We don't give Vice Shout to every DB character stronger than Gotenks anymore. This is the same thing.

Also you don't know what non-sequitur means if you think that "Only this character is shown using this ability and there is no indication that others have it, therefore they don't".

Burden of Proof is still the main thing.
 
  • Reiatsu Sight
  • Crushing / Stunning via Reiatsu (Isn't this already on the profile though?)
  • Disintegration Aura to Aizen
  • Soul Destruction to Aizen (Again, isn't this already on the profiles?)
  • Resistance to the Hax they've shown to resist
Or straight up power nulling? Aizen did state he overwhelmed her tech with his reiatsu. Sounds better than resistance, but whatever.
 
Also, Kukui, "Should be able to" should still go on the profile as a "possibly", otherwise we can be "ridiculous" and say that Reiatsu Crush only applies to those who have used it. Which isn't the entire verse, even though it's a Verse Mechanic that belongs to everyone in the verse.
 
Now you are just saying a false equivalency. You are basically saying that everyone in Dragon Ball Z should fly as fast as Gotenks because flying is a basic mechanic that everyone has.
 
Take it easy, as much as other Reiatsu users can do that, it does not mean that he will do it, the only one that was actually seen was Aizen and no one else, so this only applies to Aizen, not because he's just the one to do this, rather whether he uses or does not use the character.
 
As for Burden of Proof, I can certainly accept the conclusion for it not being applicable to anyone but Aizen, but to say that Aizen is the only one who can do it is where the proof from you must come from.

The evidence for it being good enough to "possibly" apply to anyone with as large of a gap as Aizen does to fodder exists in the form of it being indistinguishable from the normal nature of Reiatsu Crush going by Aizen's statements of his power being what causes all of this.

The evidence you present against this claim is a lack of proof that others are capable of the same thing through actual demonstration instead of the implications. However, this counterpoint is somewhat damaged when you recognize that there's never been a scenario similar to this one in the series since, correct? Where borderline humans interact with God Tiers like this? I may be wrong though.

Your claim beyond your disagreement with the OP is that Aizen is the only one who can do it.

Your evidence; the fact that Aizen is the only one who demonstrated this phenomenon, and not much more from what I can tell.

We already established that he can do it, but you're claiming that it's not unreasonable to assume he is the only one who could, justifying the separation of your claim and the OPs.

Just because Aizen is the only one who did it, doesn't mean he's the only one who can—- which means that it's not impossible for others to do it, which makes the "possibly" rating viable.
 
Do you present any evidence yourself? Objectively speaking. Your only "evidence" is contained within the second paragraph and consists of you saying it is simply Reiatsu Crush going by the statements.

Except it isn't. It is visibly different in effect, and never replicated. So we cannot apply it to everyone who's as strong as Aizen.

There is no room for a "Possibly" here. It either is or isn't. Your posts are basically just gish-galloping now.
 
That's a straw man. I'm saying that it's not irrational to ability scale characters when there's connecting traits between them that grant those abilities.

If Gotenks is strong enough to bust hole through a Pocket Dimension with a Ki enforced shout, and it is proved that the shout must be strong enough to accomplish this (and that simply screaming is the only application and it's not an attack that requires any mechanics more than strength, in this specific case), then it is rational to say that it is POSSIBLE for a character who has those same traits, if not superior ones, to be capable of this ability/feat.

This especially true in the case of Reiatsu. All that seems to be needed is to have a difference in power between the user and some fodder great enough to disintegrate them. No evidence has been presented that there's any special mechanics to the disintegration, and there's little differences between the natures of standard Reiatsu Crush and this instance save for the gap in power between Aizen and the pile of ashes that tried to give him a kiss (poor fangirl #8).

Plus, for those who agreed with the rating to keep Vice Shout out of a possibly in everyone's sheet, this is a false equivalence. Vice Shout, in the minds of those who agreed, as in not me, is a technique. So that's not an argument.

Even if your flying thing was viable as a retort, you're trying to prove that it's hypothetically impossible for anyone to fly as Fast as Gotenks ever because his "speed" is somehow unique to him alone.

It's just a bad straw man, because it removes The nuances of this situation— like how disintegration only works on a sliding scale of "fodder" to "a character in the story" instead of being a static trait.
 
No it's not a strawman. It's the exact same principle. You assume because he does it with Reiatsu Crush than all Reiatsu Crush can do that, which is inanne. It is no different than assuming everyone can do the same thing with a weapon, or utilize the same technique identically. Even something as basic as an Energy Beam technique can have immense variation.

And no, there is no evidence of that. That is simply your guess-work based on observation of Aizen alone, then applying it to everyone else. Saying there's little differences adds nothing to your side. The mechanics may be similar, but the result isn't.

And I see you completely missed the point of my Gotenks comparison and now think that it is a strawman based on your misinterpretation.

Ultimately, no one but Aizen can definitively get this and maybe SK Yhwach.
 
It being visibly different doesn't debunk my evidence's viability at all. It's clearly a whole new level of a similar concept.

It isn't a straw man at all to say that what you're saying is equivalent to Goku shaking an island with his Chi, vs Shaking a Planet or a Universe, and labeling them different powers because they look different is it?

You also don't even deny that part of YOUR evidence is that it wasn't replicated. You don't prove that it's different in mechanics. We can all see that something visually different is happening on panel. That doesn't even begin to weaken the fact that Aizen (a character who knows A LOT about his own Verse) explains this in a way that heavily implies that there's little to no difference between this phenomena and Reiatsu Crush.

You're going against the Statements because the things in question look different, when there's nothing within this context to imply there is a difference besides it not being replicated by other people even though there doesn't seem to be any scenario where it would be. Aizen is a God tier that even Ywach saw as a threat, right? So his power was still high up in the Verse, even after ceiling, and the characters who could exist around Ywach weren't human level fodder like the people disintegrated. So it wouldn't come into play at all.

A classic case of our greatest scrutinizing the statements and trying to find something that isn't there because of deep skepticism.
 
It is a strawman. Should we give everyone in DB the abilitiy to shoot Energy Beams off their feet because Goku did it. Or Vice Shout? Surely only skill / strength would matter here.

I'm not going against any statements. What I'm demanding is conclusive, positive proof. Of which there isn't any. I already told you how a similarity of process won't instantaneously mean a similarity of result. It being the product of Reiatsu does not guarantee that everyone can produce the same results as Aizen, who outside of having immense Reiatsu has special abilities and amazing control over it.

It never being replicated is frankly among the strongest evidence that it doesn't apply to everyone. How is this a difficult concept to you. You shouldn't just randomly assume that others can.

And please, don't be childish and start complaining about skepticism and scrutinizing. This is just how we do things.
 
Basically Amexim, when Matt talks about burden of proof, its on YOU to prove anyone else other than Aizen has the capability.

What your asking Matt to do, by bringing evidence, is to prove a negative. His negative. That's not how this works.

If someone claims Aizen isn't the only one to have the ability, which is a positive, then they are the ones who have to prove it.

You dont have to prove a negative, but you do need to prove a positive.
 
I assume because that Aizen can do it with Reiatsu Crush because of the gap between him and the disintegrated pile in question that anyone with as big of a gap in power between them and another disintegrated pile in question can do it.

Otherwise, why would Yhwach be able to do it, as you believe, if it wasn't based on raw power and that alone.

I'll agree that not every Energy Blast has the same mechanics and execution, but if it established that what is being done is basic and not complex or unique or doesn't require specific traits to exercise, and that it is something anyone with the traits necessary to do so can do, then it's probably not something worthy of being considered unique, even if it seems different.

If characters are master swordsman, perhaps Aidoh (pulling out your blade from the sheath and cutting the enemy down ASAP), which is a unique technique that requires a specific application of traits and mechanics might not apply to every swordsman. But swinging a sword does, whether it's a stroke done vertically or horizontally. If you're not a swordsman, you might not be able to do that.

If my argument is simply guess work, yours is too. Because you're also adding the idea that only Aizen can do it "based on your observation", rather than just shrugging and ignoring it like we do with most logical paradoxes.

Again, I CAN grant you that just because Aizen did it, doesn't mean anyone else can. You must accept, however, that just because Aizen is the only one who did it doesn't mean he's the only one who can.

And if these are both true, we reach an impasse— which was my point. Because then, we have two options. Either ignore it, or we go by the one that supports what we know the most.

And since even you recognize this is done with Reiatsu Crush, and it is likely associated with said Mechanic based off of his statements and what we know about the Verse, it's more likely that it's something not unique to Aizen, but his circumstances (as I said), and thus, anyone with matching Circumstances should be capable of the same thing.

Meaning the Soul King and anyone who scales AP wise...?
 
If someone also claims Aizen is the only one to have the ability, which is ALSO a positive, then they have to post proof too. Otherwise, if both sides have no conclusive evidence, then the results are inconclusive.
 
Post Proof? You mean the panels of the manga which only show Aizen doing it and no one else. Ergo it is up to you to prove that others can use it to. Get real and stop inverting the burden of proof.
 
I feel like I have Matt on record saying somewhere about something that what matters is the facts and not what everyone agreed on when an entire thread disagreed with him... I think. Not sure if that was him or not. I certainly remember me saying that though.
 
You can debunk a claim without giving an alternative. However, you're attempting to debunk a claim, in addition to making your own. That is;

"The evidence for Aizen's disintegration applying to everyone else is faulty. And, Aizen's disintegration doesn't apply to everyone else in similar scenarios."

The burden of proof would only be on me if you just left it at the former. But you're trying to claim something no one claimed before this— meaning you have to prove a claim that must obviously be yours because it doesn't come from thin air.

We can say "Fairies exist!" and present evidence.

And you can say "Your evidence for Fairies is faulty", and not be making a claim. But when you say "Your evidence is bad and therefore Fairies don't exist," you're making a whole new claim.

Atheists do this all the time, taking the fact that Theists have faulty evidence for their beliefs and using that to mean that there is no Deity. When they don't know that, and there's no evidence for their claim that there is no deity. It doesn't negate the fact that the evidence is faulty. Just that their counterclaim is unfounded.

So no. You gotta prove only Aizen can do this if only Aizen can do this. Doesn't matter if he's the only one shown to do it or not. You clearly need more than that in any court of law for example.
 
Can we not engage in sophistry and gish-galloping now. I'd rather ask for tangible proof than to go on tangents about Atheism and the existence of fairies... To form a convoluted analogy about whether or not people can replicate Aizen's power.

In spite of all your posts, no, the burden of proof is still by definition yours. We only see Aizen perform this particular application of Reiatsu in the manga. Nobody else is shown. You cannot prove a negative, so it falls to you to prove the positive that he isn't the only one.

How? By showing others do it.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

Arc7Kuroi
  • Locked
Bleach Tier 5 Scaling
5 6 7
Replies
275
Views
27K
Damage3245
Damage3245
Back
Top