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Bleach Revisions Part 3: Post-Timeskip (Fullbring, TYBW and CFYOW Novel)
- Thread starter Aernasilver
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The most we can say factually is that it is possible that Renji couldn't do anything about it. To say that he was being pressured by the speed of the attacks requires additional assumptions.Aernasilver said:
Therefore the most I'm willing to accept is that Full Power Mask only possibly scales in speed.
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It takes more assumptions to assume Renji was just letting all those attacks hit him than it does to assume Mask was just fast enough to hit Renji with those attacks, it's also more logical to assume the latter imo. Renji vs unpowered Mask, Renji caught his punch like it was trash and yet when Mask powered up he was landing every hit on Renji, I see no reason to assume he wouldn't do the same to all of Mask's attacks if he was able to.
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@Purgy; I'd say it is the opposite. It requires less assumptions and is more logical that Renji simply allowed himself to be hit.
He was being pressured by the power behind the attacks, but there is no reason to assume that he was being pressured by the speed which is why the highest I believe Mask's rating to be is At least Sub-Rel, possibly FTL.
Saying that Renji would have logically dodged the attacks before they could hit him is like saying Renji would logically have activated his Bankai at the start of the fight and win much sooner. Evidently the fights don't operate on 100% logic.
He was being pressured by the power behind the attacks, but there is no reason to assume that he was being pressured by the speed which is why the highest I believe Mask's rating to be is At least Sub-Rel, possibly FTL.
Saying that Renji would have logically dodged the attacks before they could hit him is like saying Renji would logically have activated his Bankai at the start of the fight and win much sooner. Evidently the fights don't operate on 100% logic.
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Omg no? Name one character that's a trained fighter in the series that would stand there and take hits just because outside of Kenpachi. Your logic doesn't work here regarding Mask. He has a clear feat of pressuring Renji and it doesn't seem like anyone is agreeing with you regarding that.
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How is Renji actively letting himself get hit more logical in any way shape or form? Renji doesn't exactly enjoy getting smacked around.Damage3245 said:
Before Mask powers up Renji is essentially blitzing Mask, slicing apart James without Mask realizing it, Renji was clearly demonstrating his speed advantage over Mask here and even boasting about it, and yet when Mask powers up that completely changes and Renji doesn't avoid a single attack nor blitz Mask at all and his smug attitude is completely gone, clearly showing he's taking Mask seriously now.
Renji used his Bankai very shortly after Mask powered up, probably from noticing how much of a boost Mask had gained and because he either wanted the fight to end quickly or because he wasn't certain he could take him with his Shikai, I mean Renji's Bankai is quite the boost in power.
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@Sigurd; I know it's rhetorical question, but Yhwach is the only other character I can think of at this time.
Mask pressures Renji only with the force behind his attacks, not necessarily the speed. If we're going for accuracy, then a possibly rating is better.
@Purgy; Renji was unharmed by any of the attacks, so it is logical that he wouldn't care so much about dodging them if he didn't have to.
My perspective that we just accept that "Renji doesn't avoid a single attack nor blitz Mask at all" and not make the leap to "that means Renji was completely incapable of avoiding Mask's attacks".
The former does not prove the latter, it only makes it a possibility.
Mask pressures Renji only with the force behind his attacks, not necessarily the speed. If we're going for accuracy, then a possibly rating is better.
@Purgy; Renji was unharmed by any of the attacks, so it is logical that he wouldn't care so much about dodging them if he didn't have to.
My perspective that we just accept that "Renji doesn't avoid a single attack nor blitz Mask at all" and not make the leap to "that means Renji was completely incapable of avoiding Mask's attacks".
The former does not prove the latter, it only makes it a possibility.
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>I'd say it is the opposite. It requires less assumptions and is more logical that Renji simply allowed himself to be hit.
That's illogical, not logical. It's illogical to assume Renji would just allow an unknown attack hit him when he possesses the speed to dodge it.
It's logical to assume the attack just blitzed him and he struggled to dodge the further attacks as they overwhelmed him.
That's illogical, not logical. It's illogical to assume Renji would just allow an unknown attack hit him when he possesses the speed to dodge it.
It's logical to assume the attack just blitzed him and he struggled to dodge the further attacks as they overwhelmed him.
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@IMade; as pointed out further up the thread, Renji was fully aware of the attack being charged up (and even announced by Mask) yet he did nothing to get out of the way or prevent Mask from using it.
If you're going to argue that Renji would logically dodge it, then you can just as easily say that Renji would logically stop the attack from happening in the first place. Yet no such thing occurred.
Seeing as earlier in the fight Renji was content to block all of Mask's previous attacks, then the logical thing is that Renji was simply planning on doing the same thing again and blocking this new attack. Hence why he didn't move out of the way or prevent it.
If you're going to argue that Renji would logically dodge it, then you can just as easily say that Renji would logically stop the attack from happening in the first place. Yet no such thing occurred.
Seeing as earlier in the fight Renji was content to block all of Mask's previous attacks, then the logical thing is that Renji was simply planning on doing the same thing again and blocking this new attack. Hence why he didn't move out of the way or prevent it.
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I know it's rhetorical question, but Yhwach is the only other character I can think of at this time.
So Yhwach willingly let himself get 1 shot by Ichigo twice? i'm not sure if you're trolling here but there isn't a single time he willingly got hit that wasn't riddled with context. And that was to see how strong Ichigo was without him using Almighty.
Mask pressures Renji only with the force behind his attacks, not necessarily the speed. If we're going for accuracy, then a possibly rating is better.
No, he made direct contact with Renji multiple times during the barrage and Renji even tried to block the attacks. Obviously his attacks did nothing to Renji in terms of harm. You're argument isn't a logical possibility here.
So Yhwach willingly let himself get 1 shot by Ichigo twice? i'm not sure if you're trolling here but there isn't a single time he willingly got hit that wasn't riddled with context. And that was to see how strong Ichigo was without him using Almighty.
Mask pressures Renji only with the force behind his attacks, not necessarily the speed. If we're going for accuracy, then a possibly rating is better.
No, he made direct contact with Renji multiple times during the barrage and Renji even tried to block the attacks. Obviously his attacks did nothing to Renji in terms of harm. You're argument isn't a logical possibility here.
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I heavily disagree Damage but this argument is going nowhere. The "Well he could dodge it if he wanted but he just felt like getting punched in the face a few dozen times" thing can literally be used for almost any feat to prevent somebody scaling in speed and it's impossible to argue against if you just ignore the counter arguments.
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@Purgy; I've addressed the counter arguments. And I don't think that this argument can be used for literally any and every feat. I'm just making it clear that contextually speaking there isn't anything proving that Mask 100% scales to Renji in speed, and that the most you can get from it is a possibility.
What is wrongly exactly with rating him as At least Sub-Rel, possibly FTL? It is the most accurate rating based on his performance in that fight.
@Sigurd; I didn't say he let himself be hit by Ichigo.
What is wrongly exactly with rating him as At least Sub-Rel, possibly FTL? It is the most accurate rating based on his performance in that fight.
@Sigurd; I didn't say he let himself be hit by Ichigo.
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@Purgy; understandable, but just because you feel a character should have a certain rating doesn't mean it would be most accurate.
The support argument is based on the assumption that Renji had to be 100% incapable of dodging Mask's attacks.
The opposing argument is just stating that it is possible either way that Renji could dodge the attacks or he could not dodge the attacks. Therefore Mask's rating should only be a possibility at highest.
The support argument is based on the assumption that Renji had to be 100% incapable of dodging Mask's attacks.
The opposing argument is just stating that it is possible either way that Renji could dodge the attacks or he could not dodge the attacks. Therefore Mask's rating should only be a possibility at highest.
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Me > Name one character that's a trained fighter in the series that would stand there and take hits just because outside of Kenpachi.
You > Yhwach is the only other character I can think of at this time.
Me > So Yhwach willingly let himself get 1 shot by Ichigo twice? i'm not sure if you're trolling here but there isn't a single time he willingly got hit that wasn't riddled with context. And that was to see how strong Ichigo was without him using Almighty.
You > I didn't say he let himself be hit by Ichigo.
I think you're messing with me now dude.
You > Yhwach is the only other character I can think of at this time.
Me > So Yhwach willingly let himself get 1 shot by Ichigo twice? i'm not sure if you're trolling here but there isn't a single time he willingly got hit that wasn't riddled with context. And that was to see how strong Ichigo was without him using Almighty.
You > I didn't say he let himself be hit by Ichigo.
I think you're messing with me now dude.
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@Sigurd; I think you must be deliberatly misinterpreting my posts.
You said "Name one character that's a trained fighter in the series that would stand there and take hits just because outside of Kenpachi."
I said "Yhwach"
And you go, "So Yhwach willingly let himself get 1 shot by Ichigo twice?"
Now, where in what I said did I say "Yhwach willing let himself get 1 shot by Ichigo twice"? You're the one who inserted that in there, not me.
You said "Name one character that's a trained fighter in the series that would stand there and take hits just because outside of Kenpachi."
I said "Yhwach"
And you go, "So Yhwach willingly let himself get 1 shot by Ichigo twice?"
Now, where in what I said did I say "Yhwach willing let himself get 1 shot by Ichigo twice"? You're the one who inserted that in there, not me.
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@Purgy
Possibly
Should be used to list a hypothetical statistic for a character, but inconclusive due to lack of feats or viable power-scaling. Probability of said hypothetical statistic should also be indeterminate.
Possibly
Should be used to list a hypothetical statistic for a character, but inconclusive due to lack of feats or viable power-scaling. Probability of said hypothetical statistic should also be indeterminate.
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From the Attack Potency page (which is just as viable for speed):Purgy said:
Likely: Should be used to list a hypothetical statistic for a character, but inconclusive due to lack of feats or viable power-scaling. Probability of said hypothetical statistic should be favourable.
Possibly: Should be used to list a hypothetical statistic for a character, but inconclusive due to lack of feats or viable power-scaling. Probability of said hypothetical statistic should also be indeterminate.
In this case, "At least Sub-Rel, likely FTL" might work better, but either way the point is that the evidence doesn't support a solid rating, so it needs to be noted as such.
Full Power Mask doesn't have any feats of keeping up with Renji in terms of speed. At best he has a possible feat, but we don't have a reason to assume it is a solid reason to scale fully.
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Denoting uncertain ratings where the evidence isn't enough to be fully convincing but it is not entirely disproven so the possibility exists. Likely is when the evidence is stronger but there's still some issues here and there, so is safer to go for the safter rating and then mention the potential rating.Purgy said:
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@Sigurd + @LSirLancelotDuLacl; thank you both.
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No need. I am rather neutral about the discussion so felt the need to comment for just that.
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Thank you. I still personally think there is sufficient evidence for him to scale and that myself and others in this thread have proven it, I could maybe see it given with a "Likely" rating, but not probably. Then again, my opinion probably doesn't count for much so it's probably doesn't even matter. That isn't to say Damage's argument isn't is completely unfounded, I just disagree. (I worded that as if Damage's argument is completely irrelevant and has no substance to it, I didn't mean that).
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Well. Perhaps that discussion point should be tabled for now until we get some more staff input.
If you want to move onto a different point, one concern I had was with Loyd's ratings. They should be:
Attack Potency: Varies, up to Country level (Was able to copy Kenpachi's appearance and powers and gave him a hard time)
Speed: Varies, up to FTL (Gave Kenpachi a hard time)
Durability: Varies, up to Country level (Possibly took attacks from Kenpachi)
Due to the nature of him copying abilities.
If you want to move onto a different point, one concern I had was with Loyd's ratings. They should be:
Attack Potency: Varies, up to Country level (Was able to copy Kenpachi's appearance and powers and gave him a hard time)
Speed: Varies, up to FTL (Gave Kenpachi a hard time)
Durability: Varies, up to Country level (Possibly took attacks from Kenpachi)
Due to the nature of him copying abilities.
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The concern was that Loyd's ratings are not always going to be that high. He was able to fight Kenpachi because he copied Kenpachi's abilities. Therefore his stats should be "Varies" since they're dependent on his opponent, and we rate him as going up to Country level / FTL because that's the maximum values we've seen from him.
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Well, I'm not changing stance regarding Mask, it's pretty clear cut.
For Loyd that is fine since his powers is copying.
For Loyd that is fine since his powers is copying.
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Makes sense.
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I'm going through the list now. I'll jot down any issues as I go then post them here later today in order to easiest to fix / discuss.Purgy said:
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Damage had a point that there was issues with circular scaling in how we scaling Sui-Feng above Omaeda, but scaling Omaeda from BG-9 who scaled from Sui-Feng. That's circular scaling.
Nanao was FTL because Shunsui was, and Shunsui was because Lille was, and Lille was FTL because BG-9 is slower than him. That extends the incorrect circular scaling.
Therefore I thought about it lot in discussion with Sigurd and Aerna and found some issues and missing scaling.
First:
We give Toshiro a new key. A Post-Timeskip Key, Post-Training Key (Toshiro trained after losing his Bankai and his feats jumped from this point on), and his Mature Bankai key.
Second:
We scale Toshiro and Byakuya from Gerard.
Toshiro's new ratings:
Speed: Sub-Relativistic (Faster than his pre-timeskip self after training), Relativistic with Bankai | FTL (Able to keep up with Gerard) | FTL, possibly FTL+ (Far superior to before. should be comparable to Bankai Kenpachi)
Byakuya's new ratings:
Speed: FTL (Superior to Nanao and Omaeda) | FTL, possibly FTL+ (Vastly superior to his previous self, helped defeat Gerard, should be comparable to Matured Tōshirō and Bankai Kenpachi)
Third:
Revise Gerard's speed rating to be more accurate and with actual support:
Gerard's new rating:
Speed: FTL (Should be above the lower tier Sternritter) | FTL (Faster than before, fought a Post-RG Training Renji) | FTL (Easily defeated Post-RG Training Renji and Rukia) | FTL, possibly FTL+ (Faster than before, can keep up with a Matured Tōshirō) | At least FTL, possibly FTL+ (Should be faster than before)
Fourth:
Remove scaling Sui-Feng from Omaeda or Nanao.
Sui-Feng's new rating:
Speed: FTL (One of the fastest Shunpo practitioners in the Gotei 13, should be faster than most Captains which includes Mature Bankai Toshiro and even Post-RG Training Byakuya), higher with Shunkō
This will remove any instance of circular scaling. Sui-Feng no longer scales from Omaeda nor Nanao, but scales from being above Toshiro and Byakuya. Toshiro scaling from Gerard who scales to FTL Renji. Byakuya scaling above not only Nanao and Omaeda in Post-Timeskip Key, but scaling to Gerard in his Post-RG Trining Key while Gerard scales from Post-RG Training Renji as they had an off-screen fight in which Renji is shown to be visibly injured from Gerard.
Nanao was FTL because Shunsui was, and Shunsui was because Lille was, and Lille was FTL because BG-9 is slower than him. That extends the incorrect circular scaling.
Therefore I thought about it lot in discussion with Sigurd and Aerna and found some issues and missing scaling.
First:
We give Toshiro a new key. A Post-Timeskip Key, Post-Training Key (Toshiro trained after losing his Bankai and his feats jumped from this point on), and his Mature Bankai key.
Second:
We scale Toshiro and Byakuya from Gerard.
Toshiro's new ratings:
Speed: Sub-Relativistic (Faster than his pre-timeskip self after training), Relativistic with Bankai | FTL (Able to keep up with Gerard) | FTL, possibly FTL+ (Far superior to before. should be comparable to Bankai Kenpachi)
Byakuya's new ratings:
Speed: FTL (Superior to Nanao and Omaeda) | FTL, possibly FTL+ (Vastly superior to his previous self, helped defeat Gerard, should be comparable to Matured Tōshirō and Bankai Kenpachi)
Third:
Revise Gerard's speed rating to be more accurate and with actual support:
Gerard's new rating:
Speed: FTL (Should be above the lower tier Sternritter) | FTL (Faster than before, fought a Post-RG Training Renji) | FTL (Easily defeated Post-RG Training Renji and Rukia) | FTL, possibly FTL+ (Faster than before, can keep up with a Matured Tōshirō) | At least FTL, possibly FTL+ (Should be faster than before)
Fourth:
Remove scaling Sui-Feng from Omaeda or Nanao.
Sui-Feng's new rating:
Speed: FTL (One of the fastest Shunpo practitioners in the Gotei 13, should be faster than most Captains which includes Mature Bankai Toshiro and even Post-RG Training Byakuya), higher with Shunkō
This will remove any instance of circular scaling. Sui-Feng no longer scales from Omaeda nor Nanao, but scales from being above Toshiro and Byakuya. Toshiro scaling from Gerard who scales to FTL Renji. Byakuya scaling above not only Nanao and Omaeda in Post-Timeskip Key, but scaling to Gerard in his Post-RG Trining Key while Gerard scales from Post-RG Training Renji as they had an off-screen fight in which Renji is shown to be visibly injured from Gerard.
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@IMade; a few points.
1) Why is Mature Bankai Toshiro comparable in speed to Bankai Kenpachi?
2) Byakuya doesn't have any evidence indicating that his speed Post-Timeskip is superior to Omaeda or Nanao during the Thousand Year Blood Warfare Arc.
3) Why is Sui-Feng scaling to Mature Bankai Toshiro or Post-RG Training Byakuya?
4) There is still not enough supporting evidence to rate Nanao as being FTL.
- The only feat listed is this one, which is a pretty flawed off-screen since
A) We don't know when she actually started moving.
B) We don't know when she actually arrived.
C) We don't know how fast Shunsui actually was travelling to get to Lille Barro's position.
D) This is at best Travel Speed, not Combat Speed, for both of them.
E) As it's been mentioned before Nanao is pretty much a non-combatant and has no significant speed feats. As an Assistant Captain, there needs to be more evidence of her being on par with the likes of the Commander of the Gotei 13.
1) Why is Mature Bankai Toshiro comparable in speed to Bankai Kenpachi?
2) Byakuya doesn't have any evidence indicating that his speed Post-Timeskip is superior to Omaeda or Nanao during the Thousand Year Blood Warfare Arc.
3) Why is Sui-Feng scaling to Mature Bankai Toshiro or Post-RG Training Byakuya?
4) There is still not enough supporting evidence to rate Nanao as being FTL.
- The only feat listed is this one, which is a pretty flawed off-screen since
A) We don't know when she actually started moving.
B) We don't know when she actually arrived.
C) We don't know how fast Shunsui actually was travelling to get to Lille Barro's position.
D) This is at best Travel Speed, not Combat Speed, for both of them.
E) As it's been mentioned before Nanao is pretty much a non-combatant and has no significant speed feats. As an Assistant Captain, there needs to be more evidence of her being on par with the likes of the Commander of the Gotei 13.
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I liek bleach but faster than light leuitantnes seem very high and not founded by the vidence of the story> maybe like Ichigo or aizen but not the foader
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@Purgy; a Lieutenant that has gone through training with the Royal Guard. Very different.
And consistency is a pretty important part of the wiki I'd say, in general. Or at least it should be.
And consistency is a pretty important part of the wiki I'd say, in general. Or at least it should be.
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1) Because I forgot to edit after I copy pasted. It should just be comparable to Gerard after his numerous amps.
2) This is the reverse. Nanao and Omaeda are only Lieutenants who don't have evidence indicating they are superior in speed to one of the more powerful and faster Captains, Byakuya Kuchiki. Also, there is no difference between TYBW Omaeda and Nanao and Fullbring Omaeda and Nanao given the timeframe is weeks.
3) Sui-Feng is hailed as being one of if not the fastest Captain.
4) Nanao has 2 instances of keeping up with Shunsui. 1 in the SS Arc and 1 in the TYBW Arc. Also, as discussed in this thread, she has enough evidence to scale to Lille as well.
2) This is the reverse. Nanao and Omaeda are only Lieutenants who don't have evidence indicating they are superior in speed to one of the more powerful and faster Captains, Byakuya Kuchiki. Also, there is no difference between TYBW Omaeda and Nanao and Fullbring Omaeda and Nanao given the timeframe is weeks.
3) Sui-Feng is hailed as being one of if not the fastest Captain.
4) Nanao has 2 instances of keeping up with Shunsui. 1 in the SS Arc and 1 in the TYBW Arc. Also, as discussed in this thread, she has enough evidence to scale to Lille as well.
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