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I agree entirely with Part 4 btw
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Bleach Tier 5 Scaling
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- #202
The Kenpachi that fights Shikai Azashiro is stronger than the one that fought Cien, which is why I don’t put Cien in the Sokyoku scaling chain.
Also destroying Soul Society is not life wiping. Soul Society is the literal realm (planet) itself, the societies within the realm are distinguished in dialogue from Soul Society.
Also destroying Soul Society is not life wiping. Soul Society is the literal realm (planet) itself, the societies within the realm are distinguished in dialogue from Soul Society.
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part 4 really do be based and redpilled tho
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Uh, is he? Rez Cien and no eyepatch Kenny are fighting, Roka and Bankai Azashiro appear during this, Cien dips to chase Roka, Kenny tries to go after Cien, Azashiro stops Kenny with an attack helicopter, nukes with 100 Hado 96 via gigai army, thinks he won, Yachiru says Kenny is fine, Kenny walks out of the flames, Azashiro realises Kenny adjusts to his opponent’s strength, Kenny tears through Azashiro’s weapons, Azashiro tries to spawn swords in Kenny but atomic reiatsu crush happens, Azashiro gets slapped to WotL, tries to break Kanonji’s spirit, fails when Kanonji hits him with the eyepatch, Kenny appears again and one shots, Azashiro wakes up in the Dangai where he uses his Shikai, they fight and Kenny is the last one standing while Azashiro goes to Shunsui before returning to his cell.
Nowhere is Kenny prompted to increase in strength by Bankai Azashiro after Cien and he can scrap with Shikai Azashiro right off the bat. Cien Kenny has to be relative to Shikai Azashiro Kenny to even think of adjusting in strength as it only happens when he experiences his opponent’s power so Cien at worst would downscale from the Shikai which still makes him relative to the Sokyoku.
Nowhere is Kenny prompted to increase in strength by Bankai Azashiro after Cien and he can scrap with Shikai Azashiro right off the bat. Cien Kenny has to be relative to Shikai Azashiro Kenny to even think of adjusting in strength as it only happens when he experiences his opponent’s power so Cien at worst would downscale from the Shikai which still makes him relative to the Sokyoku.
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Fair I’m waiting to fully translate the barrier crack context before further comment.
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That’s no problem. Sadly we only have summaries to go off but the previous post was what I could find. If you translate it different, then the summaries obviously take a backseat.
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bump
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A small piece of supporting evidence for part 4
Kenpachi in WE DO knot ALWAYS LOVE YOU is called the strongest shinigami, after the TYBW
Kenpachi in WE DO knot ALWAYS LOVE YOU is called the strongest shinigami, after the TYBW
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Isn't "Kenpachi" a title always given to the strongest Shinigami? Couldn't that be what it is referring to?
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I believe not
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Lol nice find, although I think the one in CFYOW viz is more than enough. But then again the shinigamis are irrelevant to the WSK meta tbhA small piece of supporting evidence for part 4
Kenpachi in WE DO knot ALWAYS LOVE YOU is called the strongest shinigami, after the TYBW
EldemadeDityjon
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After TYBW? Isn't this thread related to before events of TYBW? So the scan has no value. Atleast for this thread.A small piece of supporting evidence for part 4
Kenpachi in WE DO knot ALWAYS LOVE YOU is called the strongest shinigami, after the TYBW
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Part 4 covers the scaling for CFYOW/EOS kenny, res hikone and bankai ginjo
EldemadeDityjon
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I see. I thought it was for previous events.
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Hikones power is states to be able create a system like the 3 realms
Which means he's at least large planet
Which means he's at least large planet
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bump
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It's not stated to create but serve as fuel to continue the system, but that would really just scale Hikone to the sealed soul king if there's nothing to contradict the idea I assume.
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I believe you're correct there.
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Yeah that's fine the would still put him at planet to large planet at least
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Not really. Even in normal language and real world, you always hear some politician going like "we have to stop global warning to save the planet/Earth/world". I'm saying SS can also be used in the same context. It can refer to the planet, which it does most of the times, but it can also refer to just the civilization/continents (or whatever you want to call the combination of Seireitei+Rukongai).
My point was that the lower interpretation for Sokyoku makes more sense and results in better consistency. Because I think that Yama's Bankai points to the same thing. Burning up the moisture from the planet won't exactly result in it blowing up. Just that it will become something like Mercury. That was the context of Yama's Bankai destroying the SS. And going by precedent, Sokyoku's thing can be similar.
Anyway, I just replied to this point without reading the rest of the thread, so which stuff from the OP has been accepted and what are we discussing currently?
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Chapter 4 is what is to be discussed, nothing has been said on it yet.
Edit: I’ll address your Yama take later
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I'll go through more of Chapter 4 later today, but right at the start:
I don't think this is saying that Ikomi was able to defeat Yamamoto. It says that the Hollow was involved in a battle with several Soul Reapers - Yamamoto being among them - and the ones who defeated it were Oetsu and Ichibe.
Just because Oetsu and Ichibe defeated Ikomi doesn't mean every other Soul Reaper involved in the fight was defeated.
I don't think this is saying that Ikomi was able to defeat Yamamoto. It says that the Hollow was involved in a battle with several Soul Reapers - Yamamoto being among them - and the ones who defeated it were Oetsu and Ichibe.
Just because Oetsu and Ichibe defeated Ikomi doesn't mean every other Soul Reaper involved in the fight was defeated.
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The point more so was that it took more than Yamamoto to defeat him, as if Yama could solo this dude he would’ve. Its purpose in the argument is more of a hype/support scan to show that Iko is a big deal in the verse even by himself.
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Sure, I wouldn't have any problem in assuming Ikomi is at least comparable to a young Yama back in the day. I was just disagreeing with the interpretation that Ikomi must have defeated Yama prior to being defeated himself by Ichibe and Oetsu.
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No worries.
Generally the proposals for Chapter 4 look okay to me except a couple quibbles like that Ikomi vs. Yama thing I brought up.
If the proposals end up along the line of upgrading Full Power Hikone, emotions-boosted Ginjo and Kenpachi to Planet level then that seems fine with me.
The other questionable stuff referened in that section like the 1000x multipler, I am still against.
yes thank you all participates for being calm
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Update: im going to concede on Sokyoku scaling for this thread. Primarily because I think the best supporting evidence lies in SAFWY, which isn’t translated fully yet. With university my time and drive to translate swaths of that novel is 0 lmao, and considering BBS is localizing it in English I’ll just wait and revisit it in the distant future. I’ll adjust and summarize Chapter 4 scaling to account for that soon to make sure it’s fine. Then I’ll address Yamamoto’s Bankai one last time as I think tier 5 Zanka no Tachi is still valid. I probably won’t bother with the inability to sense reiatsu gap multiplier too. But this is just the game plan for the near future.
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Accepted Scaling Confirmation
Alright time to type up the scaling chains based on what has been accepted and what is currently used on profiles.
2.487e32 joules (5-B) = WSK = Fourth Fusion Aizen < God Aizen < Ultrafragor (6x) = 1.4922e33 joules (5-B) < post-Dangai Ichigo < FGT Ichigo < TS Ichigo < TS Hollow Ichigo (10x) = 1.4922e34 (5-A) < Gran Rey Cero Getsuga Tenshou (10x) = 1.4922e35 (5-A) < SK Yhwach ~ Muken Aizen ~ TB Ichigo ~ emotion-amped CFYOW Bankai Ginjo ~ Res Hikone ~ base no eyepatch CFYOW Kenpachi < CFYOW ShiKen (7x) = 1.04454e36 joules (5-A) < CFYOW BanKen
As far as the wording for Ginjo's tiering, his base is already High 6-A, so I was thinking his Bankai could be something like "At least High 6-A, likely far higher, 5-A when amplified by emotions" or something of the sort. Or we can just have CFYOW Bankai Ginjo downscale from his emotion-amped self, like maybe "5-A [baseline], higher when amplified by emotions [TB Ichigo GT level]", either is fine to me.
Zanka no Tachi
Regarding Yama's Bankai, there's a misconception that Zanka no Tachi's statements are referring to life-wiping rather than being destructive. However, I believe not only is that misconstruing the surrounding context, but provably false as well.
Unohana states that if Yamamoto doesn’t finish the fight soon, his Bankai power will destroy Soul Society. In context, this statement makes no sense to refer to Yama killing all the people who live in Soul Society. The narrative point of hyping Yamamoto's Bankai was for Kubo to display that Zanka no Tachi was (ignoring transcendent characters) the strongest Bankai and strongest power shown to date. For it to mean he's a threat to the people of the world makes zero sense when characters like Rangiku and post-SS arc Shikai Ichigo have to be careful as to not let their reiatsu have a negative effect on all the people in the entire world of the living. Threatening the broader public is something Lieutenant level characters are capable of, and it makes no logical sense for the strongest (non transcendent) Bankai to be a threat on that low of a magnitude. Furthermore, Zanka no Tachi's passive heat alone would be capable of life-wiping the planet's populace very quickly, as supported by his ability to vaporize Sternritter by merely existing had it not been for Blut Vene. However, I am scaling Yama's active AP and not his passive power.
I find it a bit disingenuous to say Yama's Bankai is only a life-wiper, when in base Yama far outscales the likes of those capable of nuking country-sized castles (referencing how base Yama has scaling to, if not above, base Aizen who scales above all the Espada, where some of the Espada can nuke country-sized objects via powering up). In fact, the Espada themselves already possess life-wiping lore. I'm sure I don't need to explain that Yamamoto casually scales above the entire Espada in his base alone. So, for someone who far outscales life-wiping in base alone to have their Bankai be reduced to mere life-wiping isn't supported by anything in the narrative at all. Yamamoto says it best himself, he will burn Soul Society to the ground. The phrase “burn to the ground” meaning “completely destroyed by fire” as confirmed by multiple sources. Hell, even the method at which Yama destroys things lends itself far more to literal destruction. Yamamoto's scaling supports it (scaling easily into High 6-A with his base form), his numerous statements support it, and even the lore of the story supports it (his Shikai alone is still a big deal to top tier CFYOW characters like Tokinada).
Just as a little icing on the cake, Yama's Bankai's final technique culminates in one phrase, "The World Reduced to Ashes". Everything about Yama's Bankai lends itself to being "planetary" (albeit over time). This doesn't hold much barring on scaling as a whole, the only characters that would be affected by this are Bankai Yama (duh), and then maybe base Yhwach and Ichibe.
"Transcendence Multiplier"
Last thing I want to touch upon is the one last attempt at quantifying the gap of "being unable to be sensed". I have two rather simple lines of reasoning.
1. Scale the gap as vaguely, but vastly greater than 10x. Reason being Res Ulquiorra who scales above HM Ichigo wasn't even able to KO, much less increase his power so much that it couldn't be sensed, with a Cero Oscuras. Meanwhile this "transcendence" gap has you casually one shotting characters you used to be equal to, and Aizen was seeking power to amp himself far beyond anything Hollowfication could do (we all know he views Hollowfication as a failure).
2. Similar vein of scaling, but just vaguely greater than 100x. Reason being, Ulq can amp himself over a 100x with his Hollow powers, base Ulq < Res Ulq < Res Ulq's CO (10x) < SE Ulq < SE Ulq's CO (10x), but as I said above this didn't take Ulq into "transcendence". Furthermore, it was the Hogyoku that gave Ulq the ability to amp himself over a 100 times anyway, and that was without even fusing with Ulq. Meanwhile the Hogyoku is fused with Aizen and is confirmed to be abiding by Aizen's will. The assumption being that the "transcendence" amp should be the largest amp provided by the Hogyoku yet, and it gave Ulq the ability to amp himself over 100x.
Personally, I find it reasonable that if a lesser mastered/powerful version of the Hogyoku can give people 100x amps, it's not unreasonable that it's greatest power-up can do the same. Alas, I'm not going to argue this to death, this is more so a final compromise proposed, and if it gets rejected that's fine.
Wrap Up
Well, after this gets ironed out and polished that'll conclude this thread. I appreciate the input and patience from everyone, this thread seems to have been productive.
Alright time to type up the scaling chains based on what has been accepted and what is currently used on profiles.
2.487e32 joules (5-B) = WSK = Fourth Fusion Aizen < God Aizen < Ultrafragor (6x) = 1.4922e33 joules (5-B) < post-Dangai Ichigo < FGT Ichigo < TS Ichigo < TS Hollow Ichigo (10x) = 1.4922e34 (5-A) < Gran Rey Cero Getsuga Tenshou (10x) = 1.4922e35 (5-A) < SK Yhwach ~ Muken Aizen ~ TB Ichigo ~ emotion-amped CFYOW Bankai Ginjo ~ Res Hikone ~ base no eyepatch CFYOW Kenpachi < CFYOW ShiKen (7x) = 1.04454e36 joules (5-A) < CFYOW BanKen
As far as the wording for Ginjo's tiering, his base is already High 6-A, so I was thinking his Bankai could be something like "At least High 6-A, likely far higher, 5-A when amplified by emotions" or something of the sort. Or we can just have CFYOW Bankai Ginjo downscale from his emotion-amped self, like maybe "5-A [baseline], higher when amplified by emotions [TB Ichigo GT level]", either is fine to me.
Zanka no Tachi
Regarding Yama's Bankai, there's a misconception that Zanka no Tachi's statements are referring to life-wiping rather than being destructive. However, I believe not only is that misconstruing the surrounding context, but provably false as well.
Unohana states that if Yamamoto doesn’t finish the fight soon, his Bankai power will destroy Soul Society. In context, this statement makes no sense to refer to Yama killing all the people who live in Soul Society. The narrative point of hyping Yamamoto's Bankai was for Kubo to display that Zanka no Tachi was (ignoring transcendent characters) the strongest Bankai and strongest power shown to date. For it to mean he's a threat to the people of the world makes zero sense when characters like Rangiku and post-SS arc Shikai Ichigo have to be careful as to not let their reiatsu have a negative effect on all the people in the entire world of the living. Threatening the broader public is something Lieutenant level characters are capable of, and it makes no logical sense for the strongest (non transcendent) Bankai to be a threat on that low of a magnitude. Furthermore, Zanka no Tachi's passive heat alone would be capable of life-wiping the planet's populace very quickly, as supported by his ability to vaporize Sternritter by merely existing had it not been for Blut Vene. However, I am scaling Yama's active AP and not his passive power.
I find it a bit disingenuous to say Yama's Bankai is only a life-wiper, when in base Yama far outscales the likes of those capable of nuking country-sized castles (referencing how base Yama has scaling to, if not above, base Aizen who scales above all the Espada, where some of the Espada can nuke country-sized objects via powering up). In fact, the Espada themselves already possess life-wiping lore. I'm sure I don't need to explain that Yamamoto casually scales above the entire Espada in his base alone. So, for someone who far outscales life-wiping in base alone to have their Bankai be reduced to mere life-wiping isn't supported by anything in the narrative at all. Yamamoto says it best himself, he will burn Soul Society to the ground. The phrase “burn to the ground” meaning “completely destroyed by fire” as confirmed by multiple sources. Hell, even the method at which Yama destroys things lends itself far more to literal destruction. Yamamoto's scaling supports it (scaling easily into High 6-A with his base form), his numerous statements support it, and even the lore of the story supports it (his Shikai alone is still a big deal to top tier CFYOW characters like Tokinada).
Just as a little icing on the cake, Yama's Bankai's final technique culminates in one phrase, "The World Reduced to Ashes". Everything about Yama's Bankai lends itself to being "planetary" (albeit over time). This doesn't hold much barring on scaling as a whole, the only characters that would be affected by this are Bankai Yama (duh), and then maybe base Yhwach and Ichibe.
"Transcendence Multiplier"
Last thing I want to touch upon is the one last attempt at quantifying the gap of "being unable to be sensed". I have two rather simple lines of reasoning.
1. Scale the gap as vaguely, but vastly greater than 10x. Reason being Res Ulquiorra who scales above HM Ichigo wasn't even able to KO, much less increase his power so much that it couldn't be sensed, with a Cero Oscuras. Meanwhile this "transcendence" gap has you casually one shotting characters you used to be equal to, and Aizen was seeking power to amp himself far beyond anything Hollowfication could do (we all know he views Hollowfication as a failure).
2. Similar vein of scaling, but just vaguely greater than 100x. Reason being, Ulq can amp himself over a 100x with his Hollow powers, base Ulq < Res Ulq < Res Ulq's CO (10x) < SE Ulq < SE Ulq's CO (10x), but as I said above this didn't take Ulq into "transcendence". Furthermore, it was the Hogyoku that gave Ulq the ability to amp himself over a 100 times anyway, and that was without even fusing with Ulq. Meanwhile the Hogyoku is fused with Aizen and is confirmed to be abiding by Aizen's will. The assumption being that the "transcendence" amp should be the largest amp provided by the Hogyoku yet, and it gave Ulq the ability to amp himself over 100x.
Personally, I find it reasonable that if a lesser mastered/powerful version of the Hogyoku can give people 100x amps, it's not unreasonable that it's greatest power-up can do the same. Alas, I'm not going to argue this to death, this is more so a final compromise proposed, and if it gets rejected that's fine.
Wrap Up
Well, after this gets ironed out and polished that'll conclude this thread. I appreciate the input and patience from everyone, this thread seems to have been productive.
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I'm not entirely sure about the transcendence multiplier but the rest seems good to me.
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Pretty much this
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I basically share the same thoughts.
I'm neutral with the transcendent stuff for the most part.
I however strongly agree with Arc regarding Zanka, it's passive heat alone is High 6-A. Overtime it's 5-B, and the time-frame isn't very long either simply due to the narrative and context. The time-frame should be relatively short all things considered, given that the other Shinigami and Royd (I believe? Whatever twin it was.) was worried about the immediate effects of Zanka.
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in regards to Transcendence
The boost you receive is superior to that of hollowfication (supported by characters being able sense reiatsu from Resurreccións and Hollowfication, yet not being able to sense Aizen), which itself is comparable to the boost bankai provides (5-10x). The difference should be closer to a full 10 times, if not more. Aizen shows this to be true when he goes from not being able to sense Dangai Ichigo’s power (who was also Transcendent) and being casually no-diffed by Ichigo, to being able to harm Ichigo after a Hogyoku Evolution.
The boost you receive is superior to that of hollowfication (supported by characters being able sense reiatsu from Resurreccións and Hollowfication, yet not being able to sense Aizen), which itself is comparable to the boost bankai provides (5-10x). The difference should be closer to a full 10 times, if not more. Aizen shows this to be true when he goes from not being able to sense Dangai Ichigo’s power (who was also Transcendent) and being casually no-diffed by Ichigo, to being able to harm Ichigo after a Hogyoku Evolution.
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To be the devil's advocate here, the burned to the ground and reduced to ashes stuff can also refer to surface destruction and not the entire planet
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