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Bleach Tier 5 Scaling

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Arc7Kuroi said:
Accepted Scaling Confirmation
Alright time to type up the scaling chains based on what has been accepted and what is currently used on profiles.

2.487e32 joules (5-B) = WSK = Fourth Fusion Aizen < God Aizen < Ultrafragor (6x) = 1.4922e33 joules (5-B) < post-Dangai Ichigo < FGT Ichigo < TS Ichigo < TS Hollow Ichigo (10x) = 1.4922e34 (5-A) < Gran Rey Cero Getsuga Tenshou (10x) = 1.4922e35 (5-A) < SK Yhwach ~ Muken Aizen ~ TB Ichigo ~ emotion-amped CFYOW Bankai Ginjo ~ Res Hikone ~ base no eyepatch CFYOW Kenpachi < CFYOW ShiKen (7x) = 1.04454e36 joules (5-A) < CFYOW BanKen

As far as the wording for Ginjo's tiering, his base is already High 6-A, so I was thinking his Bankai could be something like "At least High 6-A, likely far higher, 5-A when amplified by emotions" or something of the sort. Or we can just have CFYOW Bankai Ginjo downscale from his emotion-amped self, like maybe "5-A [baseline], higher when amplified by emotions [TB Ichigo GT level]", either is fine to me.

Zanka no Tachi
Regarding Yama's Bankai, there's a misconception that Zanka no Tachi's statements are referring to life-wiping rather than being destructive. However, I believe not only is that misconstruing the surrounding context, but provably false as well.

Unohana states that if Yamamoto doesn’t finish the fight soon, his Bankai power will destroy Soul Society. In context, this statement makes no sense to refer to Yama killing all the people who live in Soul Society. The narrative point of hyping Yamamoto's Bankai was for Kubo to display that Zanka no Tachi was (ignoring transcendent characters) the strongest Bankai and strongest power shown to date. For it to mean he's a threat to the people of the world makes zero sense when characters like Rangiku and post-SS arc Shikai Ichigo have to be careful as to not let their reiatsu have a negative effect on all the people in the entire world of the living. Threatening the broader public is something Lieutenant level characters are capable of, and it makes no logical sense for the strongest (non transcendent) Bankai to be a threat on that low of a magnitude. Furthermore, Zanka no Tachi's passive heat alone would be capable of life-wiping the planet's populace very quickly, as supported by his ability to vaporize Sternritter by merely existing had it not been for Blut Vene. However, I am scaling Yama's active AP and not his passive power.

I find it a bit disingenuous to say Yama's Bankai is only a life-wiper, when in base Yama far outscales the likes of those capable of nuking country-sized castles (referencing how base Yama has scaling to, if not above, base Aizen who scales above all the Espada, where some of the Espada can nuke country-sized objects via powering up). In fact, the Espada themselves already possess life-wiping lore. I'm sure I don't need to explain that Yamamoto casually scales above the entire Espada in his base alone. So, for someone who far outscales life-wiping in base alone to have their Bankai be reduced to mere life-wiping isn't supported by anything in the narrative at all. Yamamoto says it best himself, he will burn Soul Society to the ground. The phrase “burn to the ground” meaning “completely destroyed by fire” as confirmed by multiple sources. Hell, even the method at which Yama destroys things lends itself far more to literal destruction. Yamamoto's scaling supports it (scaling easily into High 6-A with his base form), his numerous statements support it, and even the lore of the story supports it (his Shikai alone is still a big deal to top tier CFYOW characters like Tokinada).

Just as a little icing on the cake, Yama's Bankai's final technique culminates in one phrase, "The World Reduced to Ashes". Everything about Yama's Bankai lends itself to being "planetary" (albeit over time). This doesn't hold much barring on scaling as a whole, the only characters that would be affected by this are Bankai Yama (duh), and then maybe base Yhwach and Ichibe.

"Transcendence Multiplier"
Last thing I want to touch upon is the one last attempt at quantifying the gap of "being unable to be sensed". I have two rather simple lines of reasoning.

1. Scale the gap as vaguely, but vastly greater than 10x. Reason being Res Ulquiorra who scales above HM Ichigo wasn't even able to KO, much less increase his power so much that it couldn't be sensed, with a Cero Oscuras. Meanwhile this "transcendence" gap has you casually one shotting characters you used to be equal to, and Aizen was seeking power to amp himself far beyond anything Hollowfication could do (we all know he views Hollowfication as a failure).

2. Similar vein of scaling, but just vaguely greater than 100x. Reason being, Ulq can amp himself over a 100x with his Hollow powers, base Ulq < Res Ulq < Res Ulq's CO (10x) < SE Ulq < SE Ulq's CO (10x), but as I said above this didn't take Ulq into "transcendence". Furthermore, it was the Hogyoku that gave Ulq the ability to amp himself over a 100 times anyway, and that was without even fusing with Ulq. Meanwhile the Hogyoku is fused with Aizen and is confirmed to be abiding by Aizen's will. The assumption being that the "transcendence" amp should be the largest amp provided by the Hogyoku yet, and it gave Ulq the ability to amp himself over 100x.

Personally, I find it reasonable that if a lesser mastered/powerful version of the Hogyoku can give people 100x amps, it's not unreasonable that it's greatest power-up can do the same. Alas, I'm not going to argue this to death, this is more so a final compromise proposed, and if it gets rejected that's fine.

Wrap Up
Well, after this gets ironed out and polished that'll conclude this thread. I appreciate the input and patience from everyone, this thread seems to have been productive.
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Looks good. Bankai ginjo should downscale from the Getsuga as he's confirmed to be relative to res hikone so there's consistency there.
 
DemonGodMitchAubin said:
To be the devil's advocate here, the burned to the ground and reduced to ashes stuff can also refer to surface destruction and not the entire planet
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I disagree, the phrase means to completely destroy. Not to mention Yama's method of destruction would be more akin to vaporization rather than a surface wide explosion. Furthermore, Yama scales far above people and groups of people that can raze the surface, so narratively it seems more consistent for it to be planetary overtime.

What're your thoughts on the other stuff?
 
Arc7Kuroi said:
I disagree, the phrase means to completely destroy. Not to mention Yama's method of destruction would be more akin to vaporization rather than a surface wide explosion. Furthermore, Yama scales far above people and groups of people that can raze the surface, so narratively it seems more consistent for it to be planetary overtime.

What're your thoughts on the other stuff?
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Yes, completely destroy the ground, which can refer to vaporizing the only the crust of the planet, but that's just how I see it

The scaling looks good, I already know the reasoning for why Fourth Fusion Aizen would be above the Weakened Soul King

As for the Transcendence Multiplier, honestly I can agree that it makes zero sense for the Transcendence difference to not be greater than any other amp in terms of power, the whole point is that the gap is so massive that the weaker person can't even perceive the power of the stronger person, so via that narrative logic, I can somewhat agree to the multiplier being at least 100x, but I'll admit it's not as solid as I would like it to be for a Multiplier, VSBW can be strict bout these kinda things, but narratively within the story, it makes sense
 
Here's my recent findings on zanka no tachi:

3 different translations mention the bankai will burn all of Soul Society or turn into ash, with no mention to "ground"


832a0e6d96e0297f4c88c4e6d4849664cbcfd1eb_170447_900_1300.png
dcd0f10620b82db1c2ab8baa2c1132c8e87103c5_117369_800_1159.png
0508-004.png


to add to this:
EtKI3Lb.png


儂も尸魂界も燃え尽きる
Its connected to the previous bubble where he says to hurry it up or both he and Yhwach...and the Soul Society will burn out.
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https://jisho.org/word/燃え尽きる

The verb used is “to burn out”. So in this case, the viz translation may not be entirely correct in regards to mentioning "burn to the ground".
 
To those who are still not convinced with the "Transcendence" multiplier's I've got four extra feats that points to at least a 100x if not higher increase via the Hogyoku.


1. Rukia having most of her spiritual-powers drained from her body and her ability to sense things clearly being messed with by the sekki-sekki stone can still sense Both Ichigo’s and Kenpachi’s Reiatsu.

(Rukia at this point is weaker than your average Soul Reaper since she can barely exist within the Seireitei while basic Shinigami cannon-fodder can, said cannon-fodder Soul Reapers tier to Wall-Level scaling off Hollows like Bulbous G, Both Ichigo and Kenpachi scale to 7-A to 6-C)


2. Ganju sensing the Reiatsu of Base Byakuya.

(Ganju is only rated 7-C with Equipment, which is shown to be relative/stronger then himself so his base stats would scale to or lower then the Bomb, which is massively below Base Byakuya who ranges from 7-A to 6-C)


3. Omaeda sensing the Reiatsu of Starkk, Harribel and Baraggan.

(Omaeda is tiered 7-C whiles Base Starkk, Harribel and Baraggan are tiered 6-B)


4. Low-Level Shinigami sensing Full-Power Kenpachi’s and Shikai Ichigo's Reiatsu.

(Re-read by first point with Rukia to understand the disparity)
 
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I'm still in disagreement with the proposed multipliers for Transcendance. I don't think Multipliers can be scaled like that, and I still believe that the reason they cannot be sensed isn't just because they're overwhelmingly more powerful but because they're in a different state which is backed up by Isshin's words.


Deceived's extra points only convince me more that this multiplier shouldn't be applied based on this reasoning.

I disagree, the phrase means to completely destroy. Not to mention Yama's method of destruction would be more akin to vaporization rather than a surface wide explosion. Furthermore, Yama scales far above people and groups of people that can raze the surface, so narratively it seems more consistent for it to be planetary overtime.
Click to expand...

I don't think that this is a solid supportive argument since you're basing it on our own calcs/powerscaling here. Yama scaling above people who we claim are Multi-Continental doesn't solidify that the statements given in the manga mean he is definitely planetary.


As for the statements given that Yama would "destroy Soul Society". There are a lot of different ways that could be accomplished as you've acknowledged, and raw planet-busting attack power isn't necessarily the only one. The examples of his power being shown is to cause water to dry up and evaporate over time. On a larger scale that could wipe out all life on the planet long before needing to actually destroy the physical planet itself. If all life were wiped out, and the surface razed to the ground, then no matter how you look at it the "Soul Society" will have been destroyed.


EDIT: There's a couple of points in the scaling chain that I disagree with but not enough to derail this thread over so I'll tackle them later. Aside from that, it looks fine.
 
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Damage3245 said:
I'm still in disagreement with the proposed multipliers for Transcendance. I don't think Multipliers can be scaled like that, and I still believe that the reason they cannot be sensed isn't just because they're overwhelmingly more powerful but because they're in a different state which is backed up by Isshin's words.


Deceived's extra points only convince me more that this multiplier shouldn't be applied based on this reasoning.



I don't think that this is a solid supportive argument since you're basing it on our own calcs/powerscaling here. Yama scaling above people who we claim are Multi-Continental doesn't solidify that the statements given in the manga mean he is definitely planetary.


As for the statements given that Yama would "destroy Soul Society". There are a lot of different ways that could be accomplished as you've acknowledged, and raw planet-busting attack power isn't necessarily the only one. The examples of his power being shown is to cause water to dry up and evaporate over time. On a larger scale that could wipe out all life on the planet long before needing to actually destroy the physical planet itself. If all life were wiped out, and the surface razed to the ground, then no matter how you look at it the "Soul Society" will have been destroyed.


EDIT: There's a couple of points in the scaling chain that I disagree with but not enough to derail this thread over so I'll tackle them later. Aside from that, it looks fine.
Click to expand...
Isshin doesn't even know what's happening with aizen. He assumes he's in a weird state of being.

Aizen himself explained it was because his power is so high it's like he's in higher dimension. So people can't perceive him.

 
Reio35 said:
Isshin doesn't even know what's happening with aizen. He assumes he's in a weird state of being.

Aizen himself explained it was because his power is so high it's like he's in higher dimension. So people can't perceive him.

Click to expand...
I'm aware of that. My point is that I don't think its as simple as a case of "If you're 100 x stronger than somebody else, then you will be transcendent and impossible to sense by them."
 
Damage3245 said:
As for the statements given that Yama would "destroy Soul Society". There are a lot of different ways that could be accomplished, and raw planet-busting attack power isn't necessarily the only one. The examples of his power being shown is to cause water to dry up and evaporate over time. On a larger scale that could wipe out all life on the planet long before needing to actually destroy the physical planet itself. If all life were wiped out, and the surface razed to the ground, then no matter how you look at it the "Soul Society" will have been destroyed.
Click to expand...
The Soul Society ( Planet ) was going to be destroyed by Yama's Ban-Kai because it was generating so much heat that first the water started to get dried up, the heat was also causing the Shinigami's body water to vaporize together with other liquids as seen on Ukitake, Shunsui, and 4th Division Lieutenant. The temperature of Yamamoto's body and sword was 2700x more than that of the Sun Surface, it makes more sense to be a destruction of the planet over time. Also if yamamoto was gonna destroy all the life ( souls ) in SS wouldn't that cause the Planet to get destryed because of the link with the Soul Chain?
 
Also if yamamoto was gonna destroy all the life ( souls ) in SS wouldn't that cause the Planet to get destryed because of the link with the Soul Chain?
Click to expand...

What Soul Chain?
 
AKM sama said:
This is one of the calmest Bleach threads in a recent while. I like it!
Click to expand...
Time to spice it up ( I may be wrong )
So the point of the discussion now is if Yamamoto with Bankai has the power to destroy Soul Society as a planet, whether as a whole or just the life on it. We know Soul Society is the place where the Souls Reside. If the number of souls on Soul Society is way lower than the one on earth it would cause the Fall and destruction of the 2 planets, as mentioned before in many Bleach revisions latest being AKM Sama thread. So if all the life, even if half of it on Soul Society was going to get Destroyed that would cause the destruction of the planet. I belive Yamamoto and if anyone else scales to his Ban-Kai should have 3A, possibly low 2-C environmental Destruction via "Causes Garganta to collapse by destroying Soul Society"
If I'm wrong don't bully me
 
So the point of the discussion now is if Yamamoto with Bankai has the power to destroy Soul Society as a planet, whether as a whole or just the life on it. We know Soul Society is the place where the Souls Reside. If the number of souls on Soul Society is way lower than the one on earth it would cause the Fall and destruction of the 2 planets, as mentioned before in many Bleach revisions latest being AKM Sama thread. So if all the life, even if half of it on Soul Society was going to get Destroyed that would cause the destruction of the planet. I belive Yamamoto and if anyone else scales to his Ban-Kai should have 3A, possibly low 2-C environmental Destruction via "Causes Garganta to collapse by destroying Soul Society"
Click to expand...

That's not a valid environmental destruction feat since it is specific to the Bleach cosmos setup.

That's like giving every single character possibly Low 2-C environmental destrctuon because anyone can go around killing masses of civilians or exterminating masses of Hollows and causing things to break down.
 
Damage3245 said:
That's not a valid environmental destruction feat since it is specific to the Bleach cosmos setup.

That's like giving every single character possibly Low 2-C environmental destrctuon because anyone can go around killing masses of civilians or exterminating masses of Hollows and causing things to break down.
Click to expand...
If they do that than I guess they should get that rate lol. It doesn't change the fact that the Garganga would collapse.
 
BleachHollow said:
Time to spice it up ( I may be wrong )
So the point of the discussion now is if Yamamoto with Bankai has the power to destroy Soul Society as a planet, whether as a whole or just the life on it. We know Soul Society is the place where the Souls Reside. If the number of souls on Soul Society is way lower than the one on earth it would cause the Fall and destruction of the 2 planets, as mentioned before in many Bleach revisions latest being AKM Sama thread. So if all the life, even if half of it on Soul Society was going to get Destroyed that would cause the destruction of the planet. I belive Yamamoto and if anyone else scales to his Ban-Kai should have 3A, possibly low 2-C environmental Destruction via "Causes Garganta to collapse by destroying Soul Society"
If I'm wrong don't bully me
Click to expand...
Agree 👍. Yama should get environmental destruction.
 
I mean wiki assume SS destruction is Bleach cosmology destruction itself by going by wiki assumption we should assume that Yama destroying SS gonna collapse whole cosmology.

Well previous downgrade thread says yhwach destroying SS gonna destroy cosmology.
 
BleachHollow said:
Ok, I just don't want to disturb Arc thread since he is the one who made this, but I believe it's pretty valid since it has the same outcome as what Yhwach got his rating for. But we will leave this for later
Click to expand...
It doesn't seem like you genuinely believe that Yama has Universal effects with his own power if you're just justifying it as "Yhwach got it for this, so every other character should get it too."

I'd rather remove the Universe level rating for Yhwach altogether than give it to everyone in the Bleach verse for such weak reasoning.
 
Its more so the souls and destablisation of the bleach cosmos that causes the low 2-C, if mayuri ordered his fodder shinigami to go around purging too many reisdents of the rukongai it would achieve the same (albeit slightly different) result but hes definitely not getting tier 2 Enviromental Destruction lmao.
 
Damage3245 said:
It doesn't seem like you genuinely believe that Yama has Universal effects with his own power if you're just justifying it as "Yhwach got it for this, so every other character should get it too."

I'd rather remove the Universe level rating for Yhwach altogether than give it to everyone in the Bleach verse for such weak reasoning.
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It's just a simple thought reading the thread. It doesn't matter what i believe. Soul Society destroying causes Garaganta to collapse. Even if Kon does that he should get the rating. Still gonna look on this later on to have a better and more firm opinion on the matter.
 
BleachHollow said:
It's just a simple thought reading the thread. It doesn't matter what i believe. Soul Society destroying causes Garaganta to collapse. Even if Kon does that he should get the rating. Still gonna look on this later on to have a better and more firm opinion on the matter.
Click to expand...
Well as per assumption we should consider SS destruction is whole cosmology destruction.
Loyd said:
Its more so the souls and destablisation of the bleach cosmos that causes the low 2-C, if mayuri ordered his fodder shinigami to go around purging too many reisdents of the rukongai it would achieve the same (albeit slightly different) result but hes definitely not getting tier 2 Enviromental Destruction lmao.
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I get your point but his point also makes sense doesn't it.
 
Im siding with the disagreement for Yama, that could be still simply surface destruction, and when he was bankai nothing happen to support a 5B rating, so I’m not confident to support that.

Yama still can have future sources like the anime or databook to support that so it can brought up again with more proof, but right now at least for me is not enough to grant such rating.
 
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Hmmmm the point that Yama’s destruction of Soul Society isn’t implied to cause any wider structural collapse of the universe when Reio’s/Yhwach’s is, is certainly an interesting argument. That’s a head scratcher that I don’t think has a answer outside speculation, albeit on the flip side maybe that ties into the reason Yama and Unohana didn’t want Zanka no Tachi active for too long. However, that leans on the side of speculation, and I don’t think it makes sense narratively for Yama to be able to collapse the universe in the same way Yhwach and Reio could (realm level DC, where we accept realm level as planetary). So, I’m fine dropped Yama for now and perhaps revisiting him later if the anime expands on it.

Transcendence gap quantification seems to be universally rejected, so that’s that.

The only issue to be ironed out is, should we downscale Ginjo’s Bankai from his emotions-amped self or just say that it’s likely far higher and have a separate rating for his emotions-amp? Aka “5-A [baseline], higher when amplified by emotions” vs “At least High 6-A, likely far higher, 5-A when amplified by emotions”.
 
The only issue to be ironed out is, should we downscale Ginjo’s Bankai from his emotions-amped self or just say that it’s likely far higher and have a separate rating for his emotions-amp? Aka “5-A [baseline], higher when amplified by emotions” vs “At least High 6-A, likely far higher, 5-A when amplified by emotions”.
Click to expand...

The latter seems better to me.
 
Damage3245 said:
The latter seems better to me.
Click to expand...
Sounds good, can you unlock Ichigo’s pre and post TS profiles, Ginjo’s, Hikone’s, and Kenny’s profiles, and then the Bleach verse page (so I can add their specific scaling values to the notes).
 
Arc7Kuroi said:
Sounds good, can you unlock Ichigo’s pre and post TS profiles, Ginjo’s, Hikone’s, and Kenny’s profiles, and then the Bleach verse page (so I can add their specific scaling values to the notes).
Click to expand...
Bleach verse page is already unlocked, but I'll unlock those others.
 
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