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Awarding Boruto Many Success Achievements Via Shippuden Achievements Of Success

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Damage3245 said:
I'm bringing him up because the feats I'm seeing from them don't put them on his level.
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I don't really see your point regarding this, after fighting straight for a massive amount of time Madara had enough Chakara to both cast the Infinite Tsukuyomi and the Shin Kotai which is Small Planet level and even AFTER that still had more than enough energy to fight Naruto, Sasuke and Sakura all over.
Toneri could hurl the Moon at the Earth at speeds great enough to totally obliterate the planet and iirc in the novels was stated to be able to recreate the same planet, the same Toneri that later stated that with a little bit of Solar Energy and Naruto's Chakra he'd be able to obliterate the Earth himself. Also fun fact, the Barrier created by the Tenseigan would be able to tank the Earth's destruction point blank
Momoshiki had absorbed the energy of countless planets, and as Arc said the geothermal energy of 1 planet alone is Small Planet level (this even further makes sense in the novel adaptation of the Sumire Nue Arc where it's stated that ionizing radiation was burning the surface of the planet which once had a civilization then, if you don't know, the magnetosphere protects us from the Sun's radiation, and it exists because the Earth is geothermally active, hence if we lost that geothermal energy we'd be burnt by radiation from space)
 
Avengershows said:
and as Arc said the geothermal energy of 1 planet alone is Small Planet level
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damn, no credits whatsoever.
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Okay, so this is where I share my thoughts on the OP. I'm not really planning to argue here, as I'm personally extremely disinterested in most of the topics and characters being discussed here, and I honestly wasn't even sure if I'd comment at all. Simply put, I don't care that much about the God tiers, doubly so for anything that takes place in the Boruto Era. I'm sorry if that upsets anybody, but that's just how I feel. I may find the motivation to be more involved with God tier scaling in the future, but for now, this will be it. I'll share some thoughts, and ya'll can choose to ignore them or use them as you will. I won't be able to have prolonged back and forth arguments on this as I have other revisions (that are more important to me personally) to handle currently.
So........here goes.
Arc7Kuroi said:

Madara​

The imgur explains the reasoning behind my premise, but to put it simply, Dual Rinnegan Juubidara (the strongest we see him get) scales to Hagoromo through this scaling chain:

One Rinnegan Juubidara = close to Hagoromo < Shinju-Absorbed Juubidara < Dual Rinnegan Juubidara ~ Hagoromo = 5-B

Via pure power scaling, specifically the bolded portion, it should be abundantly clear that Juubidara at his peak should be scaling relative to Hagoromo. Doubly so when you consider Juubidara got beyond a “one shot” level amp from single Rinnegan to two Rinnegan (went from being obliterated by SPSM Naruto’s Rasenshuriken with one eye to being able to fight both SPSM KCM Naruto and Rinnegan Sasuke simultaneously). Juubidara being close to Hagoromo’s power and then receiving a beyond “one shot” level amp should be enough evidence alone to scale peak Juubidara to Hagoromo.

Furthermore, the narrative around Juubidara’s ever increasing power is that he wants to obtain a power similar to that of Kaguya. We see this brought to the forefront as Juubidara gets betrayed and defeated by his own hubris (manifested in the form of Madara believing Black Zetsu is his will alone and that he cannot be used like he used Obito). Then Naruto flashes back to Hagoromo claiming Madara is nearing his own power, to Hagoromo claiming that Madara wants to get Kaguya’s power but that Kaguya’s power gives rise to self-destruction through hubris. This is what literally happens, Madara obtains Hagoromo’s power and when he tries to go further and obtain Kaguya’s power, he is undone by the rise of his own hubris. The narrative of Madara’s rise to power is that he climbs to the Sage of Six Paths level only to be overwhelmed and consumed in pursuit of Kaguya’s power.

But wait, there’s more! The databooks themselves directly state that when Juubidara got both eyes he unleashed the true power of the Six Paths, which heavily implies and all but directly confirms that Dual Rinnegan Juubidara reached Hagoromo’s power level. Six Paths refers to Hagoromo inherently, as Hagoromo is the Sage of Six Paths, and the namesake of those famous powers as known by the ninja world. Thus, awakening the true power of the Six Paths would inherently refer to unleashing the actual power of Hagoromo. Again this adds just further layers of consistency to Madara being this strong.

Additionally, Dual Rinnegan Juubidara casually spreads the God Tree roots around the world with his own energy. This feat is calculated to Small Planetary as a lowball. This feat serves as a solid supporting feat to the scaling I’m proposing for Madara. The preponderance of evidence for Madara scaling to Hagoromo is ever-so-increasing.

Finally, to touch upon Juubidara with a single Rinnegan. Hagaromo states he's getting close to himself in power, if Madara is nearing Hagaromo in power that would imply he's closer to Hagoromo in power than he is further from Hagoromo in power. This would mean One Rinnegan Juubidara should be over half way to Hagoromo's power. As consequence of this Night Guy would scale as well, since he was breaking Madara's body.

To conclude everything I’ve brought up, via powerscaling, narrative intent, and statements, Dual Rinnegan Juubidara is put on the same level of power as Hagoromo. One Rinnegan Juubidara scales above a power that rivals Hagoromo and is getting close to Hagoromo himself, and upon receiving multiple huge amps awakens to Dual Rinnegan Juubidara, unleashing power on par with Hagoromo, until eventually in attempts of pursuing a power beyond Hagoromo he falls to his own hubris. Therefore, Dual Rinnegan Juubidara should scale to Hagoromo. As far as quantifying weaker forms of Juubidara, I’m neutral on that and am open to suggestions.

Night Guy = 39.1 ZT (Low 5-B+)
Single Rinnegan Juubidara = 39.1 ZT (Low 5-B+)
Dual Rinnegan Juubidara = 78.2 ZT (5-B)
Click to expand...
I know people won't agree with me on this, and that's fine, but I personally don't really agree with scaling Madara directly to Hagoromo like this. I see the arguments, and they're not inherently wrong, but I personally just don't find them very solid.

For starters, the amp Madara got from the Rinnegan wasn't actually that massive. Not of his amps were, if you really wanna get into it. Let me elaborate:
  • We have an injured and still recovering Pre-Shinju Madara blocking an attack from SPSM Naruto, and surviving a direct hit from his Lava Rasenshuriken. It's clear that Naruto is stronger than him here, but the difference isn't actually massive.
  • Then he absorbed the Shinju, and was later capable of both blocking an attack from SPSM Naruto, and even hurting him physically. He was also able to withstand two attacks from Naruto and Sasuke. Now, Sasuke was able to hurt with both his sword and his Six Paths chakra enhanced Chidori, but Madara was kinda caught off-guard in both instances, and tbf, if only makes sense for comparable characters to harm each other, anyway, especially with AP enhancing techniques like Six Paths Chidori. So basically, my point is that Post-Shinju Madara is actually relative to Naruto and Sasuke.
  • Then we reach Dual Rinnegan Madara, and frankly, his performance hasn't really improved all that much. Naruto and Sasuke can still tank attacks from him just fine, and Naruto's clones are able to match him. (Btw, I know I refer to his Limbo clones as "him" a lot, but that's because they basically are. they're shadow versions of Madara himself, and are equal to him). So basically, what I'm saying is that I don't really see where Madara got an amp so massive it could cover a one-shot worthy difference, because all of his forms are just kinda relative to Naruto and Sasuke. He just went from being on the back foot Pre-Shinju, to simply being perfectly on-par with them with his later amps. At no point was Madara being shat on, and even when he was being pushed by Naruto, he was already recovering from a life-threatening injury, and still had decent feats against him.

So basically, I just don't personally see the amps he received as being enough to cover whatever gap there was between him and Hagoromo. It feels very speculative to me personally.

Now let's actually discuss the direct Madara-Hagoromo stuff.
Imma be completely honest, I don't think Madara should be equal to Hagoromo at any point. The guys he was matching at his peak were just given said power to match him by less than half of Hagoromo's chakra (less because if he'd given each exactly half of his chakra, he would literally cease to exist, as he's a purely chakra based existence at this point).
And I know what you're going to say. "Chakra amount doesn't always equate to AP", "They could've received greater amps than the raw sum of chakra they received", "They had their own power beforehand that could've made a difference", etc.
Here's the thing, though. Chakra amount does matter if comparable chakra control is in play. And in this case, it most certainly is. Sasuke's chakra control and skill was directly compared to Hagoromo's, meaning they canonically have comparable chakra control. Likewise, Six Paths sage Mode was stated to bring Naruto a perfect understanding of Chakra, which he displays by effortlessly wielding the Bijuu's Kekkei Genkai natures, doing effortless one-handed Rasenshurikens, making thousands of clones without getting any weaker, healing people, etc etc. And this state is both used and provided to Naruto directly by Hagoromo, so it's consistent. So Hagoromo has comparable chakra control to these guys, at the very least, which means that him having more chakra is actually indicative of him being superior.
Now, regarding their "previous power making the difference". Their previous power is, simply put, irrelevant. Sasuke was weaker than Juubito with several amps, and was normally just around Bijuu level give or take. Naruto was also much weaker than Juubito, but didn't have to rely on any amps (outside of Sage Mode), which would explain why he's slightly superior to Sasuke at their peak Six Paths levels. But again, the key word here is slightly. The Hagoromo amp is SO FAR above what they were capable of before that it actually allowed SPSM (no cloak) Naruto to match Madara, who's far above Juubito, who was previously ******** on peak Naruto while mentally nerfing himself. Their previous power is just absolutely irrelevant IMHO.
SPSM Naruto >~ Juubidara >> Juubito > Mentally Nerfed Juubito >> BSM Naruto ~ CS Kyuubi amped Sasuke > Biju Mode Naruto >> EMS Sasuke

Like, I feel it'd be a bit disingenuous to say that their previous power, which was irrelevant to Juubito, would propel them to be on par with or above Hagoromo, who literally provided them with an amp that took them from country (possibly continental) ranges to small planetary-planetary ranges. But maybe that's just me.

Now, onto Madara being narratively implied to have reached Hags' level, and instead aiming for Kaguya's power. This, in my view, is pure speculation and is unsupported IMO. He had that intention, but we know for a fact that he did not succeed. He's verbatim stated to be significantly inferior to Kaguya, twice. He failed to reach Kaguya's power, and is never really confirmed to have reached Hagoromo's power in actuality. So personally speaking, I don't find this all that solid to base the scaling of dozens of characters on, as it's too specualtive imo.
And regarding this statement. I don't really view this as acknowledgement for Madara having reached Hags' level, I believe it is simply Naruto remembering what Hagoromo told him regarding kaguya in context, as Sasuke had just mentioned her. So I think you were reading a bit too much into it with that one, personally speaking.
And for the "Unlocking the true power of the Six Paths" statement. Again, it's just referencing the fact that the Rinnegan's power (which is rooted in Six Paths lore, and actually possess the Six Paths techniques) are only truly unlocked when the pair is together, which is actually common for any Dojutsu. I don't see it as any confirmation that Madara became dead equal to Hagoromo.

Additionally, Hagoromo has actually fought a much stronger Kaguya in the past, as she had merged with a complete Juubi that had none of its fragments missing. Fighting the prime Juubi is part of his lore, and is re-iterated time and again, so I'd say that in addition to everything above, that would support Hags being above Madara, who's confirmed as much weaker than revived Kaguya.

The way I personally see it, the "he's getting close to me" statement can still make sense by Madara simply scaling to Naruto and Sasuke (slightly below them pre-Shinju and relative to them post-Shinju and Rinnegan), who would in turn either scale to half of Hags' power, or simply downscale from him and Kaguya via their showings. He'd still be "close" to Hagoromo then, so nothing would actually be contradicted, and it would be more solid scaling with no speculation involved IMHO.

I know that people will disgaree with this take, because everyone upscaling Hags' feat is kinda exciting I guess, and that's fine. I almost wasn't really gonna even mention this, and I don't even plan to argue further about this, but I thought it'd be good to get my thoughts out there. What ya'll do with them is up to you. This is simply my stance, and how I personally view the scaling.
Arc7Kuroi said:

Naruto and Sasuke​

Naruto and Sasuke are pretty blatant in terms of scaling as well. SPSM KCM Naruto and Rinnegan Sasuke are able to fight Dual Rinnegan Juubidara, hold their own briefly against Kaguya, and in Naruto’s case he’s even able to momentarily overpower Kaguya with certain techniques. So, clearly I believe both of them should simply scale off of Dual Rinnegan Juubidara.

Now to touch on a single contention I can foresee appearing, Hagoromo giving Naruto and Sasuke half his chakra each. A lot of people use this event to scale Naruto and Sasuke to half of Hagoromo’s power and I think opponents to my proposal will use it in an attempt to downplay Dual Rinnegan Juubidara and/or Naruto and Sasuke. However, doing such is just blatantly incorrect, and I’ll explain why. First, Naruto and Sasuke are more than just half of Hagoromo’s chakra. They both have their own sources of chakra and upon receiving Hagoromo chakra, it blended with their own and evolved them to new heights (Naruto got an entire new transformation and Sasuke got an entire new eye). This just means that Hagoromo does not serve at all as a limiter to Naruto and Sasuke’s power. Secondly, as is well established, chakra amount and attack potency aren’t inherently 1:1 in every situation, meaning Naruto and Sasuke can have half of Hagoromo’s chakra but scale above half of Hagoromo’s power without creating any contradictions. Honestly, that is why I prefer to scale Naruto and Sasuke simply to Dual Rinnegan Juubidara, as that line of scaling is far simpler and offers no inherent contradictions.

SPSM KCM Naruto = 78.2 ZT (5-B)
Rinnegan Sasuke = 78.2 ZT (5-B)
Click to expand...
Like I said, I personally find it better to downscale them from Kaguya and use the half Hags stuff as support, as well as Madara's own Low 5-B feat.

And on the Kaguya points, it definitely should be a downscale, not a direct scale, as Kaguya is blatantly superior to both of them, as well as Madara (who is ~ to them as I've shown above). Kaguya also easily demolished Sasuke's perfect Susano'o, which is equal to Naruto's own Kurama avatar, twice and tanked 9 Biju Rasenshurikens from Naruto while stated to be low on chakra. One could even argue that Kaguya was nerfed throughout the whole fight, as she immediately performed her world switching, which we know drains a massive chunk of her chakra. So it's honestly just more cosistent for Kaguya to be superior IMO. Their high-end feats against her don't exactly outweigh the low-end ones where she dominates them, and most can even be explained by her being low on chakra from dimension hopping. Again, it could just be me, but that's how I view it.

Arc7Kuroi said:

Toneri​

The imgur covers most of what I want to convey, but to put it more clearly I’ll convey it in the form of a scaling chain and then elaborate. There are two potential scaling chains:

Toneri with Tenseigan chakra (TCM) < Toneri with Tenseigan and BSM chakra (Light of Justice) = power of Hamura = 5-B
OR
5-B = Hamura < Hamura with Tenseigan > Hamura’s Tenseigan without Hamura < Hamura’s Tenseigan with additional Byakugan without Hamura = Toneri’s Complete Tenseigan

The top scaling chain is the minimum interpretation that I will now explain. Toneri equates the Light of Justice to Hamura’s power. This is likely referring to Tenseigan Hamura, as that is the most recent Hamura Toneri is aware of, and the movie is all about the Tenseigan. So, the Light of Justice would scale to or above Hamura, who is Planetary. This is supported by the fact that the Light of Justice is stated capable of destroying the world. Furthermore, the novelization implies that had Naruto not stopped Toneri, the planet would have been entirely annihilated, which logically would refer to Toneri’s last ditch effort energy ball. This attack being at this level isn’t contradicted by the other “destroy the world but not completely” statements either as at this point in the film, Toneri like a spoiled child, doesn’t want anyone to have Earth if he can’t, so he prepares to throw a “**** all destroy everything” energy ball at the planet.

Now that it’s established that the Light of Justice is at least on the same tier of power as Hamura via power scaling and multiple statements, I’ll discuss what it is. Simply put, the Light of Justice is a fusion of Toneri with the Tenseigan and Naruto’s BSM chakra, otherwise known as TCM Toneri plus BSM Naruto. Anyone who has watched the movie should know that TCM Toneri and BSM Naruto are pretty relative to each other, meaning combining their power would be the same as simply doubling one of their powers. So, at a bare minimum TCM Toneri is scaling to half of Hamura’s power. Finally, to clear up a misconception, Toneri claims the Light of Justice can destroy the world/is the power of Hamura prior to absorbing any Sun energy, meaning the Sun wasn’t going to have aided him in any way.

TCM Toneri = 39.1 ZT (Low 5-B+)

Toneri’s Tenseigan is shown and implied to be on the same level as Hamura’s current Tenseigan, which is Hamura’s original Tenseigan with loads of Byakugan added into it. Toneri’s Tenseigan is able to do everything Hamura’s does and both the narrator and Toneri imply that Toneri’s complete Tenseigan is at the same level as Hamura’s current Tenseigan. This is significant because it implies that TCM Toneri should be relative to TCM Hamura via power scaling, as seen in the bolded portion of the second scale. Toneri’s base form, while unknown, is likely weaker than Hamura’s base form; however, Toneri’s Tenseigan is superior to the Tenseigan Hamura had while he was alive. It should be obvious that TCM Hamura would be stronger than the base Hamura which performed a Planetary feat, meaning Toneri having a scaling chain that implies he’s at TCM Hamura’s level would suggest Toneri should scale to at least base Hamura if not stronger.

As a last small thing to touch upon, Toneri with his Tenseigan can casually move the Moon this fast. I am putting this here as support for Toneri being as strong as I’m proposing, considering he has a casual Moon level+ feat already.

TCM Toneri = 78.2 ZT (5-B)
undefined
Click to expand...
I think Toneri scaling to half of the LOJ based on your logic is fine, and then having a "Likely Planet level" rating based on the Hamura implications would be good.

Although, frankly, base Naruto should downscale from his SPSM self in Shippuden anyway via matching Sasuke, and having numerous showings of SPSM and KCM not being big amps for him anymore, but I guess we're just not tackling that rn? Cause, it'd support Toneri being planetary, and would take base Nard out of Unknown limbo.

Arc7Kuroi said:

Momoshiki and Kinshiki​

Imgur Links:
There is a lot to cover with these two, unfortunately, so as always I’ll start with the scaling chains.

5-B = Kaguya (maybe and no not the ETSO) < Momo and Kin < Fused Momo > Kaguya (definitely and no not the ETSO) = 5-B
AND
5-B = Rinnegan Sasuke ~ Kinshiki ~ Momoshiki < Fused Momo

I’ll talk about the second scaling chain first because it is far simpler in my opinion. The only assumption that goes into it is that Sasuke in his adulthood during the events of Boruto is at least as strong as his teenage self. To which I believe is a fine assumption, considering we see in Gaiden, Sasuke (and Naruto) lose their rustyness and regain their regular combat prowess by the end of that mini-series. Additionally, the writers like to show Sasuke is weakened by having the tomoe leave his Rinnegan, which never happens here. From there it is easy to see that Kinshiki scales to Sasuke, they clash relatively evenly with each other time and time again, the only time either gains the advantage over the other is when Sasuke catches Kinshiki by surprise after he gets tossed around by the Kage.

Regarding Momoshiki, it is implied that he is superior to Kinshiki in the same way Isshiki is superior to Kaguya. They place Momo’s marking above Kin’s, just like Isshiki’s is above Kaguya’s. Furthermore, Momoshiki can amplify the absorbed jutsu from Boruto to the point of knocking SPSM KCM Naruto unconscious, given Naruto decided to deliberately take all the damage. Base Momo was able to send base Naruto flying with a kick, despite Boruto pointing out Momo to Naruto, and it took Naruto a little while to get back on his feet. So, while I’m certainly not implying Momo should scale at all to SPSM KCM Naruto, it is certainly implied that Momoshiki is the superior of the Otsutsuki duo, the anime also portrays Momo as the bigger deal of the two. Then by absorbing Kinshiki, Momo gets a massive amp and transforms into Fused Momo, where he can one shot opponents who gave him and Kinshiki trouble previously. Fused Momoshiki should logically be at least the individual sums of both Momoshiki and Kinshiki.

On to the more complicated, potentially controversial take, using the Kaguya castle scrolls to scale Momoshiki and Kinshiki above Kaguya (and to reiterate, no not the ETSO). The argument goes as follows, Sasuke specifically denotes that despite Kaguya’s power she felt the need to create an army to combat Momoshiki and Kinshiki, which is confirmed true when Sasuke receives the translation of the scroll as he notes that their suspicions are correct. Sasuke also doesn’t question the scroll's validity and buys the decoded translation, and Sasuke has already come into contact and fought with Kinshiki and Momoshiki, further adding validity to the confirmation of his initial claim. At the bare minimum this would point to Fused Momoshiki scaling above Kaguya, as Kaguya may know about their ability to fuse together. However, after confirming his hypothesis and seeing base Momo and Kinshiki, Sasuke claims the scrolls are referring to the both of them. Regardless, this doesn’t affect the value I plan on scaling these two Otsutsuki to via Sasuke, and rather is just more preponderance of evidence that they are at those Planetary levels of power.

Narratively this is also very consistent, as a fellow member pointed out in the Naruto General thread brought up an interesting method of quantification. The Earth's internal thermal energy flows to the surface at a rate of 44.2 terajoules per second, which doesn't sound much cause of course it's just a rock planet after all not a star, however, the Shinju doesn't absorb it for a single second but the whole fuel, the whole budget that supplies the ecosystem on the planet, which I did some searches on and it turns out that The Geothermal Potential of the Earth is estimated to be around 12.6 x 10e24 MJ or roughly 1.26e31 joules or 3 ZT of TNT Small Planet Level and that's for a single planet let alone countless. To preface, I am not proposing applying some multiplier to this for scaling, rather using it as support for the time being. We know Momoshiki has been going around for thousands of years absorbing the life energy from many planets. So, it makes sense for him to have reached Planetary amounts of power in base, being that he’s devoured numerous God Tree fruits from other planets with civilizations.

Finally, as a combination of Momoshiki and Kinshiki, Fused Momoshiki should scale to at least the addition of Momoshiki and Kinshiki. Although, it is potentially far higher as Momoshiki goes from being around Sasuke/Kage level to no selling Sasuke’s sword swing after eating Kinshiki.

Kinshiki = 78.2 ZT (5-B)
Momoshiki = 78.2 ZT (5-B)
Fused Momoshiki = 156.4 ZT (5-B)
Click to expand...
Right, so I'm not gonna get too deeply into Boruto related stuff, but there are a few things I'd like to say about this.

For starters, I think this thread should be temporarily put on hold until you guys deal with this discussion rule. It prevents scaling Momoshiki above Kaguya, and I honestly completely forgot about it. I'm not gonna share my thoughts on it, as I really just don't wanna get into Boruto scaling at this time, but the rule should be dealt with first. My suggestion is that you create a staff thread addressing the rule, and get it removed. You could try asking Tempest to maybe participate in that if he wishes to defend his original position, but that's up to him. But the point is that Discussion Rules shouldn't be ignored. Again, I won't actually have a stake in the discussion itself, but I will give you guys some suggestions for the scaling depending on whether the discussion rule is removed or not.

Assuming the Discussion Rule get removed:
Well, this outcome makes things very simple.
Momoshiki and Kinshiki would scale to Kaguya (don't think they should scale above, as two being comparable to Kaguya should be enough to scare her IMO, plus it's a safer assumption), Fused Momoshiki would be 2x that, and nerfed Naruto and Sasuke would scale directly to Fused Momo.
The Kage's scaling would be exactly as outlined in the OP, same with Shikamaru, Sakura, and Shin (Yes, I agree with all of those).
Oh, and Momo would scale to Naruto with amped Ninjutsu, which makes sense as it's actually stated to double the power of the Jutsu he absorbed iirc (plus he was juiced on chakra pills). So he'd just get a "higher with Amplified Jutsu and Chakra Pills.
And that's it. Pretty simple shit.

Assuming the Discussion Rule remains:
This is where things get dicey, I suppose.
As we've extensively discussed yesterday on Discord, Sasuke cannot be scaling to both Kinshiki and Fused Momoshiki at the same time. He can't be scaling to two values simultaneously. We have to pick one. I think most of us agree that the most consistent thing narrative and feats wise is the Fused Momo scaling for a number of reasons. To name a few:
  • Sasuke actually straight up fights him alongside Naruto in the anime and manga. He has more direct feats in the anime, but it's not like he's featless in the manga.
  • When he fought Kinshiki, he was simply probing Kaguya's dimension and didn't want to expend too much chakra, so he had reason to hold back. Additional support would be that he only used his 3 tomoe in the anime, and seemed to only go all out with the EMS against Fused Momo. Same logic applies to him "failing" to decapitate Fused Momo, he simply didn't know yet how strong he'd gotten and underestimated him. This is interesting because Sasuke was later heavily implied to be capable of decapitating Jigen, and just had comparable portrayal to Naruto in both the Jigen and Momoshiki fights. Naruto clearly has more endurance, and could be argued to have a physical edge, but they're clearly portrayed to be in the same weight class and have equal portrayals. It's just that each one has their areas of strength.
  • Speaking of which, there's just several statements out there stating that Naruto and Sasuke are equals and that the only one capable of matching or rivalling Naruto is Sasuke, so yeah.

I'd say the most consistent thing is that Naruto and Sasuke are relative, and that Fused Momo would scale/downscale from their nerfed self.

As for Momoshiki and Kinshiki individually, I'd say the best way to deal with them is to either downscale them from their Fused self, or simply divide the value they scale to by half. Atlernatively, Kinshiki could simply downscale from Sasuke and Momo simply scales to him, but in that case, I'd personally not use the multiplier for Fused Momo as it'd make things weird. Just scale Fused Momo to Naruto and Sussy and downscale the individual aliens from that value. Simple,
The Kage's scaling would be pretty much the same, so nothing changes there. Same with Shikamaru.


Aside from these points I made, I think everything else is relatively fine. I'm iffy on Koji scaling in base above Delta and Naruto (especially when Amado himself said that only Naruto and Sasuke would be capable of fighting Isshiki, and that Koji didn't stand a chance, implying that he believes they're superior), and I'm also kinda iffy on Delta being equal to Naruto when he was implied to not be going all out. Also a bit concerned about no Rinnegan Sasuke and Borushiki scaling, but honestly, it's whatever. It works well enough I suppose, and like I said, I don't wanna actually get into Boruto scaling lmao.

Aaaaaaaaaaaand that about sums up my thoughts. Like I said, these are just my thoughts on everything. I know most of you won't agree with a lot of this, and that's fine. I don't plan to argue or anything, just wanted to get my thoughts and suggestions out there.

Anyway, imma go back to prepping that Bijuu thread. Peace!! 🙏
 
UchihaSlayer96 said:
Okay, so this is where I share my thoughts on the OP. I'm not really planning to argue here, as I'm personally extremely disinterested in most of the topics and characters being discussed here, and I honestly wasn't even sure if I'd comment at all. Simply put, I don't care that much about the God tiers, doubly so for anything that takes place in the Boruto Era. I'm sorry if that upsets anybody, but that's just how I feel. I may find the motivation to be more involved with God tier scaling in the future, but for now, this will be it. I'll share some thoughts, and ya'll can choose to ignore them or use them as you will. I won't be able to have prolonged back and forth arguments on this as I have other revisions (that are more important to me personally) to handle currently.
So........here goes.

I know people won't agree with me on this, and that's fine, but I personally don't really agree with scaling Madara directly to Hagoromo like this. I see the arguments, and they're not inherently wrong, but I personally just don't find them very solid.

For starters, the amp Madara got from the Rinnegan wasn't actually that massive. Not of his amps were, if you really wanna get into it. Let me elaborate:
  • We have an injured and still recovering Pre-Shinju Madara blocking an attack from SPSM Naruto, and surviving a direct hit from his Lava Rasenshuriken. It's clear that Naruto is stronger than him here, but the difference isn't actually massive.
  • Then he absorbed the Shinju, and was later capable of both blocking an attack from SPSM Naruto, and even hurting him physically. He was also able to withstand two attacks from Naruto and Sasuke. Now, Sasuke was able to hurt with both his sword and his Six Paths chakra enhanced Chidori, but Madara was kinda caught off-guard in both instances, and tbf, if only makes sense for comparable characters to harm each other, anyway, especially with AP enhancing techniques like Six Paths Chidori. So basically, my point is that Post-Shinju Madara is actually relative to Naruto and Sasuke.
  • Then we reach Dual Rinnegan Madara, and frankly, his performance hasn't really improved all that much. Naruto and Sasuke can still tank attacks from him just fine, and Naruto's clones are able to match him. (Btw, I know I refer to his Limbo clones as "him" a lot, but that's because they basically are. they're shadow versions of Madara himself, and are equal to him). So basically, what I'm saying is that I don't really see where Madara got an amp so massive it could cover a one-shot worthy difference, because all of his forms are just kinda relative to Naruto and Sasuke. He just went from being on the back foot Pre-Shinju, to simply being perfectly on-par with them with his later amps. At no point was Madara being shat on, and even when he was being pushed by Naruto, he was already recovering from a life-threatening injury, and still had decent feats against him.

So basically, I just don't personally see the amps he received as being enough to cover whatever gap there was between him and Hagoromo. It feels very speculative to me personally.

Now let's actually discuss the direct Madara-Hagoromo stuff.
Imma be completely honest, I don't think Madara should be equal to Hagoromo at any point. The guys he was matching at his peak were just given said power to match him by less than half of Hagoromo's chakra (less because if he'd given each exactly half of his chakra, he would literally cease to exist, as he's a purely chakra based existence at this point).
And I know what you're going to say. "Chakra amount doesn't always equate to AP", "They could've received greater amps than the raw sum of chakra they received", "They had their own power beforehand that could've made a difference", etc.
Here's the thing, though. Chakra amount does matter if comparable chakra control is in play. And in this case, it most certainly is. Sasuke's chakra control and skill was directly compared to Hagoromo's, meaning they canonically have comparable chakra control. Likewise, Six Paths sage Mode was stated to bring Naruto a perfect understanding of Chakra, which he displays by effortlessly wielding the Bijuu's Kekkei Genkai natures, doing effortless one-handed Rasenshurikens, making thousands of clones without getting any weaker, healing people, etc etc. And this state is both used and provided to Naruto directly by Hagoromo, so it's consistent. So Hagoromo has comparable chakra control to these guys, at the very least, which means that him having more chakra is actually indicative of him being superior.
Now, regarding their "previous power making the difference". Their previous power is, simply put, irrelevant. Sasuke was weaker than Juubito with several amps, and was normally just around Bijuu level give or take. Naruto was also much weaker than Juubito, but didn't have to rely on any amps (outside of Sage Mode), which would explain why he's slightly superior to Sasuke at their peak Six Paths levels. But again, the key word here is slightly. The Hagoromo amp is SO FAR above what they were capable of before that it actually allowed SPSM (no cloak) Naruto to match Madara, who's far above Juubito, who was previously ******** on peak Naruto while mentally nerfing himself. Their previous power is just absolutely irrelevant IMHO.
SPSM Naruto >~ Juubidara >> Juubito > Mentally Nerfed Juubito >> BSM Naruto ~ CS Kyuubi amped Sasuke > Biju Mode Naruto >> EMS Sasuke

Like, I feel it'd be a bit disingenuous to say that their previous power, which was irrelevant to Juubito, would propel them to be on par with or above Hagoromo, who literally provided them with an amp that took them from country (possibly continental) ranges to small planetary-planetary ranges. But maybe that's just me.

Now, onto Madara being narratively implied to have reached Hags' level, and instead aiming for Kaguya's power. This, in my view, is pure speculation and is unsupported IMO. He had that intention, but we know for a fact that he did not succeed. He's verbatim stated to be significantly inferior to Kaguya, twice. He failed to reach Kaguya's power, and is never really confirmed to have reached Hagoromo's power in actuality. So personally speaking, I don't find this all that solid to base the scaling of dozens of characters on, as it's too specualtive imo.
And regarding this statement. I don't really view this as acknowledgement for Madara having reached Hags' level, I believe it is simply Naruto remembering what Hagoromo told him regarding kaguya in context, as Sasuke had just mentioned her. So I think you were reading a bit too much into it with that one, personally speaking.
And for the "Unlocking the true power of the Six Paths" statement. Again, it's just referencing the fact that the Rinnegan's power (which is rooted in Six Paths lore, and actually possess the Six Paths techniques) are only truly unlocked when the pair is together, which is actually common for any Dojutsu. I don't see it as any confirmation that Madara became dead equal to Hagoromo.

Additionally, Hagoromo has actually fought a much stronger Kaguya in the past, as she had merged with a complete Juubi that had none of its fragments missing. Fighting the prime Juubi is part of his lore, and is re-iterated time and again, so I'd say that in addition to everything above, that would support Hags being above Madara, who's confirmed as much weaker than revived Kaguya.

The way I personally see it, the "he's getting close to me" statement can still make sense by Madara simply scaling to Naruto and Sasuke (slightly below them pre-Shinju and relative to them post-Shinju and Rinnegan), who would in turn either scale to half of Hags' power, or simply downscale from him and Kaguya via their showings. He'd still be "close" to Hagoromo then, so nothing would actually be contradicted, and it would be more solid scaling with no speculation involved IMHO.

I know that people will disgaree with this take, because everyone upscaling Hags' feat is kinda exciting I guess, and that's fine. I almost wasn't really gonna even mention this, and I don't even plan to argue further about this, but I thought it'd be good to get my thoughts out there. What ya'll do with them is up to you. This is simply my stance, and how I personally view the scaling.

Like I said, I personally find it better to downscale them from Kaguya and use the half Hags stuff as support, as well as Madara's own Low 5-B feat.

And on the Kaguya points, it definitely should be a downscale, not a direct scale, as Kaguya is blatantly superior to both of them, as well as Madara (who is ~ to them as I've shown above). Kaguya also easily demolished Sasuke's perfect Susano'o, which is equal to Naruto's own Kurama avatar, twice and tanked 9 Biju Rasenshurikens from Naruto while stated to be low on chakra. One could even argue that Kaguya was nerfed throughout the whole fight, as she immediately performed her world switching, which we know drains a massive chunk of her chakra. So it's honestly just more cosistent for Kaguya to be superior IMO. Their high-end feats against her don't exactly outweigh the low-end ones where she dominates them, and most can even be explained by her being low on chakra from dimension hopping. Again, it could just be me, but that's how I view it.


I think Toneri scaling to half of the LOJ based on your logic is fine, and then having a "Likely Planet level" rating based on the Hamura implications would be good.

Although, frankly, base Naruto should downscale from his SPSM self in Shippuden anyway via matching Sasuke, and having numerous showings of SPSM and KCM not being big amps for him anymore, but I guess we're just not tackling that rn? Cause, it'd support Toneri being planetary, and would take base Nard out of Unknown limbo.


Right, so I'm not gonna get too deeply into Boruto related stuff, but there are a few things I'd like to say about this.

For starters, I think this thread should be temporarily put on hold until you guys deal with this discussion rule. It prevents scaling Momoshiki above Kaguya, and I honestly completely forgot about it. I'm not gonna share my thoughts on it, as I really just don't wanna get into Boruto scaling at this time, but the rule should be dealt with first. My suggestion is that you create a staff thread addressing the rule, and get it removed. You could try asking Tempest to maybe participate in that if he wishes to defend his original position, but that's up to him. But the point is that Discussion Rules shouldn't be ignored. Again, I won't actually have a stake in the discussion itself, but I will give you guys some suggestions for the scaling depending on whether the discussion rule is removed or not.

Assuming the Discussion Rule get removed:
Well, this outcome makes things very simple.
Momoshiki and Kinshiki would scale to Kaguya (don't think they should scale above, as two being comparable to Kaguya should be enough to scare her IMO, plus it's a safer assumption), Fused Momoshiki would be 2x that, and nerfed Naruto and Sasuke would scale directly to Fused Momo.
The Kage's scaling would be exactly as outlined in the OP, same with Shikamaru, Sakura, and Shin (Yes, I agree with all of those).
Oh, and Momo would scale to Naruto with amped Ninjutsu, which makes sense as it's actually stated to double the power of the Jutsu he absorbed iirc (plus he was juiced on chakra pills). So he'd just get a "higher with Amplified Jutsu and Chakra Pills.
And that's it. Pretty simple shit.

Assuming the Discussion Rule remains:
This is where things get dicey, I suppose.
As we've extensively discussed yesterday on Discord, Sasuke cannot be scaling to both Kinshiki and Fused Momoshiki at the same time. He can't be scaling to two values simultaneously. We have to pick one. I think most of us agree that the most consistent thing narrative and feats wise is the Fused Momo scaling for a number of reasons. To name a few:
  • Sasuke actually straight up fights him alongside Naruto in the anime and manga. He has more direct feats in the anime, but it's not like he's featless in the manga.
  • When he fought Kinshiki, he was simply probing Kaguya's dimension and didn't want to expend too much chakra, so he had reason to hold back. Additional support would be that he only used his 3 tomoe in the anime, and seemed to only go all out with the EMS against Fused Momo. Same logic applies to him "failing" to decapitate Fused Momo, he simply didn't know yet how strong he'd gotten and underestimated him. This is interesting because Sasuke was later heavily implied to be capable of decapitating Jigen, and just had comparable portrayal to Naruto in both the Jigen and Momoshiki fights. Naruto clearly has more endurance, and could be argued to have a physical edge, but they're clearly portrayed to be in the same weight class and have equal portrayals. It's just that each one has their areas of strength.
  • Speaking of which, there's just several statements out there stating that Naruto and Sasuke are equals and that the only one capable of matching or rivalling Naruto is Sasuke, so yeah.

I'd say the most consistent thing is that Naruto and Sasuke are relative, and that Fused Momo would scale/downscale from their nerfed self.

As for Momoshiki and Kinshiki individually, I'd say the best way to deal with them is to either downscale them from their Fused self, or simply divide the value they scale to by half. Atlernatively, Kinshiki could simply downscale from Sasuke and Momo simply scales to him, but in that case, I'd personally not use the multiplier for Fused Momo as it'd make things weird. Just scale Fused Momo to Naruto and Sussy and downscale the individual aliens from that value. Simple,
The Kage's scaling would be pretty much the same, so nothing changes there. Same with Shikamaru.


Aside from these points I made, I think everything else is relatively fine. I'm iffy on Koji scaling in base above Delta and Naruto (especially when Amado himself said that only Naruto and Sasuke would be capable of fighting Isshiki, and that Koji didn't stand a chance, implying that he believes they're superior), and I'm also kinda iffy on Delta being equal to Naruto when he was implied to not be going all out. Also a bit concerned about no Rinnegan Sasuke and Borushiki scaling, but honestly, it's whatever. It works well enough I suppose, and like I said, I don't wanna actually get into Boruto scaling lmao.

Aaaaaaaaaaaand that about sums up my thoughts. Like I said, these are just my thoughts on everything. I know most of you won't agree with a lot of this, and that's fine. I don't plan to argue or anything, just wanted to get my thoughts and suggestions out there.

Anyway, imma go back to prepping that Bijuu thread. Peace!! 🙏
Click to expand...
Love it. Honestly too lazy to be in this thread but your reply summed up some of the thoughts I had but couldn’t articulate properly.
 
Arc7Kuroi said:
Shippuden

Hagoromo and Hamura​

Hagoromo and Hamura will form the basis of the God Tier scaling with their combined feat of hurling the Moon into orbit. They simply scale to the value listed in the results section.

Hagoromo’s AP = 78.2 ZT (5-B)
Hamura’s AP = 78.2 ZT (5-B)

Madara​

The imgur explains the reasoning behind my premise, but to put it simply, Dual Rinnegan Juubidara (the strongest we see him get) scales to Hagoromo through this scaling chain:

One Rinnegan Juubidara = close to Hagoromo < Shinju-Absorbed Juubidara < Dual Rinnegan Juubidara ~ Hagoromo = 5-B

Via pure power scaling, specifically the bolded portion, it should be abundantly clear that Juubidara at his peak should be scaling relative to Hagoromo. Doubly so when you consider Juubidara got beyond a “one shot” level amp from single Rinnegan to two Rinnegan (went from being obliterated by SPSM Naruto’s Rasenshuriken with one eye to being able to fight both SPSM KCM Naruto and Rinnegan Sasuke simultaneously). Juubidara being close to Hagoromo’s power and then receiving a beyond “one shot” level amp should be enough evidence alone to scale peak Juubidara to Hagoromo.

Furthermore, the narrative around Juubidara’s ever increasing power is that he wants to obtain a power similar to that of Kaguya. We see this brought to the forefront as Juubidara gets betrayed and defeated by his own hubris (manifested in the form of Madara believing Black Zetsu is his will alone and that he cannot be used like he used Obito). Then Naruto flashes back to Hagoromo claiming Madara is nearing his own power, to Hagoromo claiming that Madara wants to get Kaguya’s power but that Kaguya’s power gives rise to self-destruction through hubris. This is what literally happens, Madara obtains Hagoromo’s power and when he tries to go further and obtain Kaguya’s power, he is undone by the rise of his own hubris. The narrative of Madara’s rise to power is that he climbs to the Sage of Six Paths level only to be overwhelmed and consumed in pursuit of Kaguya’s power.

But wait, there’s more! The databooks themselves directly state that when Juubidara got both eyes he unleashed the true power of the Six Paths, which heavily implies and all but directly confirms that Dual Rinnegan Juubidara reached Hagoromo’s power level. Six Paths refers to Hagoromo inherently, as Hagoromo is the Sage of Six Paths, and the namesake of those famous powers as known by the ninja world. Thus, awakening the true power of the Six Paths would inherently refer to unleashing the actual power of Hagoromo. Again this adds just further layers of consistency to Madara being this strong.

Additionally, Dual Rinnegan Juubidara casually spreads the God Tree roots around the world with his own energy. This feat is calculated to Small Planetary as a lowball. This feat serves as a solid supporting feat to the scaling I’m proposing for Madara. The preponderance of evidence for Madara scaling to Hagoromo is ever-so-increasing.

Finally, to touch upon Juubidara with a single Rinnegan. Hagaromo states he's getting close to himself in power, if Madara is nearing Hagaromo in power that would imply he's closer to Hagoromo in power than he is further from Hagoromo in power. This would mean One Rinnegan Juubidara should be over half way to Hagoromo's power. As consequence of this Night Guy would scale as well, since he was breaking Madara's body.

To conclude everything I’ve brought up, via powerscaling, narrative intent, and statements, Dual Rinnegan Juubidara is put on the same level of power as Hagoromo. One Rinnegan Juubidara scales above a power that rivals Hagoromo and is getting close to Hagoromo himself, and upon receiving multiple huge amps awakens to Dual Rinnegan Juubidara, unleashing power on par with Hagoromo, until eventually in attempts of pursuing a power beyond Hagoromo he falls to his own hubris. Therefore, Dual Rinnegan Juubidara should scale to Hagoromo. As far as quantifying weaker forms of Juubidara, I’m neutral on that and am open to suggestions.

Night Guy = 39.1 ZT (Low 5-B+)
Single Rinnegan Juubidara = 39.1 ZT (Low 5-B+)
Dual Rinnegan Juubidara = 78.2 ZT (5-B)

Kaguya​

Kaguya is blatantly superior to Juubidara, Hagoromo, Hamura, and the like. She’s fairly objectively the strongest character in Shippuden. She performs better against Naruto and Sasuke than Dual Rinnegan Juubidara and is stated to be stronger than him.

Kaguya > 78.2 ZT (5-B)

Naruto and Sasuke​

Naruto and Sasuke are pretty blatant in terms of scaling as well. SPSM KCM Naruto and Rinnegan Sasuke are able to fight Dual Rinnegan Juubidara, hold their own briefly against Kaguya, and in Naruto’s case he’s even able to momentarily overpower Kaguya with certain techniques. So, clearly I believe both of them should simply scale off of Dual Rinnegan Juubidara.

Now to touch on a single contention I can foresee appearing, Hagoromo giving Naruto and Sasuke half his chakra each. A lot of people use this event to scale Naruto and Sasuke to half of Hagoromo’s power and I think opponents to my proposal will use it in an attempt to downplay Dual Rinnegan Juubidara and/or Naruto and Sasuke. However, doing such is just blatantly incorrect, and I’ll explain why. First, Naruto and Sasuke are more than just half of Hagoromo’s chakra. They both have their own sources of chakra and upon receiving Hagoromo chakra, it blended with their own and evolved them to new heights (Naruto got an entire new transformation and Sasuke got an entire new eye). This just means that Hagoromo does not serve at all as a limiter to Naruto and Sasuke’s power. Secondly, as is well established, chakra amount and attack potency aren’t inherently 1:1 in every situation, meaning Naruto and Sasuke can have half of Hagoromo’s chakra but scale above half of Hagoromo’s power without creating any contradictions. Honestly, that is why I prefer to scale Naruto and Sasuke simply to Dual Rinnegan Juubidara, as that line of scaling is far simpler and offers no inherent contradictions.

SPSM KCM Naruto = 78.2 ZT (5-B)
Rinnegan Sasuke = 78.2 ZT (5-B)

Scaling Chain​

Hagoromo >~ One Rinnegan Juubidara < Shinju-Absorbed Juubidara < Dual Rinnegan Juubidara ~ Hagoromo = Hamura = 5-B ~ SPSM KCM Naruto ~ Rinnegan Sasuke ~< Kaguya

What I am proposing as “concrete” is that Hamura, Hagoromo, Dual Rinnegan Juubidara, SPSM KCM Naruto, Rinnegan Sasuke, and Kaguya scale to or above the Planetary feat. What I am leaving up for discussing is quantifying downscaling, say for characters like One Rinnegan Juubidara.
The Last

Toneri​

The imgur covers most of what I want to convey, but to put it more clearly I’ll convey it in the form of a scaling chain and then elaborate. There are two potential scaling chains:

Toneri with Tenseigan chakra (TCM) < Toneri with Tenseigan and BSM chakra (Light of Justice) = power of Hamura = 5-B
OR
5-B = Hamura < Hamura with Tenseigan > Hamura’s Tenseigan without Hamura < Hamura’s Tenseigan with additional Byakugan without Hamura = Toneri’s Complete Tenseigan

The top scaling chain is the minimum interpretation that I will now explain. Toneri equates the Light of Justice to Hamura’s power. This is likely referring to Tenseigan Hamura, as that is the most recent Hamura Toneri is aware of, and the movie is all about the Tenseigan. So, the Light of Justice would scale to or above Hamura, who is Planetary. This is supported by the fact that the Light of Justice is stated capable of destroying the world. Furthermore, the novelization implies that had Naruto not stopped Toneri, the planet would have been entirely annihilated, which logically would refer to Toneri’s last ditch effort energy ball. This attack being at this level isn’t contradicted by the other “destroy the world but not completely” statements either as at this point in the film, Toneri like a spoiled child, doesn’t want anyone to have Earth if he can’t, so he prepares to throw a “**** all destroy everything” energy ball at the planet.

Now that it’s established that the Light of Justice is at least on the same tier of power as Hamura via power scaling and multiple statements, I’ll discuss what it is. Simply put, the Light of Justice is a fusion of Toneri with the Tenseigan and Naruto’s BSM chakra, otherwise known as TCM Toneri plus BSM Naruto. Anyone who has watched the movie should know that TCM Toneri and BSM Naruto are pretty relative to each other, meaning combining their power would be the same as simply doubling one of their powers. So, at a bare minimum TCM Toneri is scaling to half of Hamura’s power. Finally, to clear up a misconception, Toneri claims the Light of Justice can destroy the world/is the power of Hamura prior to absorbing any Sun energy, meaning the Sun wasn’t going to have aided him in any way.

TCM Toneri = 39.1 ZT (Low 5-B+)

Toneri’s Tenseigan is shown and implied to be on the same level as Hamura’s current Tenseigan, which is Hamura’s original Tenseigan with loads of Byakugan added into it. Toneri’s Tenseigan is able to do everything Hamura’s does and both the narrator and Toneri imply that Toneri’s complete Tenseigan is at the same level as Hamura’s current Tenseigan. This is significant because it implies that TCM Toneri should be relative to TCM Hamura via power scaling, as seen in the bolded portion of the second scale. Toneri’s base form, while unknown, is likely weaker than Hamura’s base form; however, Toneri’s Tenseigan is superior to the Tenseigan Hamura had while he was alive. It should be obvious that TCM Hamura would be stronger than the base Hamura which performed a Planetary feat, meaning Toneri having a scaling chain that implies he’s at TCM Hamura’s level would suggest Toneri should scale to at least base Hamura if not stronger.

As a last small thing to touch upon, Toneri with his Tenseigan can casually move the Moon this fast. I am putting this here as support for Toneri being as strong as I’m proposing, considering he has a casual Moon level+ feat already.

TCM Toneri = 78.2 ZT (5-B)

Naruto​

BSM Naruto fights TCM Toneri pretty evenly, as I mentioned above, and as such would scale to him.

BSM Naruto = 39.1 ZT (Low 5-B+)
OR
BSM Naruto = 78.2 ZT (5-B)

Sasuke​

Logically Sasuke is probably stronger than BSM Naruto in The Last since in every other era he’s more so a rival to SPSM KCM Naruto. That being said, there’s literally no statements or feats to concretely label Sasuke’s power in The Last outside of “he’s probably still rivaling Naruto”. Hence why I am leaving him out of the scaling here. I guess he can simply scale to his teenage self since he's been out and about staying active with missions.

The Last Sasuke = 78.2 ZT (5-B)

Scaling Chain​

TCM Toneri ~ BSM Naruto < Toneri with Tenseigan and BSM chakra (2x) = Hamura = 5-B
OR
Hamura = 5-B < Hamura with Tenseigan > Hamura’s Tenseigan without Hamura < Hamura’s Tenseigan with additional Byakugan without Hamura = Toneri’s Tenseigan =< TCM Toneri ~ BSM Naruto

I’m proposing that BSM Naruto from The Last and TCM Toneri are bare minimum Small Planetary and Toneri would be flat out Planetary with Light of Justice. However, I’m curious on what people think of the secondary scaling chain, perhaps something akin to “Small Planetary, likely/possibly Planetary” would be a good compromise, or perhaps the implications are strong enough to say they are flat out Planetary. I’ll leave that up for discussion.
Boruto

Momoshiki and Kinshiki​

Imgur Links:
There is a lot to cover with these two, unfortunately, so as always I’ll start with the scaling chains.

5-B = Kaguya (maybe and no not the ETSO) < Momo and Kin < Fused Momo > Kaguya (definitely and no not the ETSO) = 5-B
AND
5-B = Rinnegan Sasuke ~ Kinshiki ~ Momoshiki < Fused Momo

I’ll talk about the second scaling chain first because it is far simpler in my opinion. The only assumption that goes into it is that Sasuke in his adulthood during the events of Boruto is at least as strong as his teenage self. To which I believe is a fine assumption, considering we see in Gaiden, Sasuke (and Naruto) lose their rustyness and regain their regular combat prowess by the end of that mini-series. Additionally, the writers like to show Sasuke is weakened by having the tomoe leave his Rinnegan, which never happens here. From there it is easy to see that Kinshiki scales to Sasuke, they clash relatively evenly with each other time and time again, the only time either gains the advantage over the other is when Sasuke catches Kinshiki by surprise after he gets tossed around by the Kage.

Regarding Momoshiki, it is implied that he is superior to Kinshiki in the same way Isshiki is superior to Kaguya. They place Momo’s marking above Kin’s, just like Isshiki’s is above Kaguya’s. Furthermore, Momoshiki can amplify the absorbed jutsu from Boruto to the point of knocking SPSM KCM Naruto unconscious, given Naruto decided to deliberately take all the damage. Base Momo was able to send base Naruto flying with a kick, despite Boruto pointing out Momo to Naruto, and it took Naruto a little while to get back on his feet. So, while I’m certainly not implying Momo should scale at all to SPSM KCM Naruto, it is certainly implied that Momoshiki is the superior of the Otsutsuki duo, the anime also portrays Momo as the bigger deal of the two. Then by absorbing Kinshiki, Momo gets a massive amp and transforms into Fused Momo, where he can one shot opponents who gave him and Kinshiki trouble previously. Fused Momoshiki should logically be at least the individual sums of both Momoshiki and Kinshiki.

On to the more complicated, potentially controversial take, using the Kaguya castle scrolls to scale Momoshiki and Kinshiki above Kaguya (and to reiterate, no not the ETSO). The argument goes as follows, Sasuke specifically denotes that despite Kaguya’s power she felt the need to create an army to combat Momoshiki and Kinshiki, which is confirmed true when Sasuke receives the translation of the scroll as he notes that their suspicions are correct. Sasuke also doesn’t question the scroll's validity and buys the decoded translation, and Sasuke has already come into contact and fought with Kinshiki and Momoshiki, further adding validity to the confirmation of his initial claim. At the bare minimum this would point to Fused Momoshiki scaling above Kaguya, as Kaguya may know about their ability to fuse together. However, after confirming his hypothesis and seeing base Momo and Kinshiki, Sasuke claims the scrolls are referring to the both of them. Regardless, this doesn’t affect the value I plan on scaling these two Otsutsuki to via Sasuke, and rather is just more preponderance of evidence that they are at those Planetary levels of power.

Narratively this is also very consistent, as a fellow member pointed out in the Naruto General thread brought up an interesting method of quantification. The Earth's internal thermal energy flows to the surface at a rate of 44.2 terajoules per second, which doesn't sound much cause of course it's just a rock planet after all not a star, however, the Shinju doesn't absorb it for a single second but the whole fuel, the whole budget that supplies the ecosystem on the planet, which I did some searches on and it turns out that The Geothermal Potential of the Earth is estimated to be around 12.6 x 10e24 MJ or roughly 1.26e31 joules or 3 ZT of TNT Small Planet Level and that's for a single planet let alone countless. To preface, I am not proposing applying some multiplier to this for scaling, rather using it as support for the time being. We know Momoshiki has been going around for thousands of years absorbing the life energy from many planets. So, it makes sense for him to have reached Planetary amounts of power in base, being that he’s devoured numerous God Tree fruits from other planets with civilizations.

Finally, as a combination of Momoshiki and Kinshiki, Fused Momoshiki should scale to at least the addition of Momoshiki and Kinshiki. Although, it is potentially far higher as Momoshiki goes from being around Sasuke/Kage level to no selling Sasuke’s sword swing after eating Kinshiki.

Kinshiki = 78.2 ZT (5-B)
Momoshiki = 78.2 ZT (5-B)
Fused Momoshiki = 156.4 ZT (5-B)

Shikamaru​

Shikamaru can halt Kinshiki’s swing with his shadows, so logically Shikamaru’s shadows should scale. Stopping Kinshiki’s momentum with his shadows can be thought as equivalent to clashing evenly/parrying Kinshiki’s strike like Sasuke did, as both require you to contest the kinetic energy behind Kinshiki’s swing.

Shikamaru’s Shadows = 78.2 ZT (5-B)

Mizukage​

Mizukage can sort of keep up with Kinshiki, and while physically he got overpowered, he wasn’t getting one shot by Kinshiki. Furthermore, Mizukage’s jutsu objectively scales as he harmed Kinshiki and forced Kinshiki to dodge his jutsu. Whether we downscale Mizukage’s physicals from Kinshiki or not I leave up to discussion.

Mizukage’s Jutsu = 78.2 ZT (5-B)

Tsuchikage​

Tsuchikage blatantly slams Kinshiki with her punches and makes him gasp in pain, rather blatant scaling.

Tsuchikage = 78.2 ZT (5-B)

Raikage​

I wish this were Ay, Boruto’s real dad, and true inheritor of the Jougan. Raikage is able to clash with Momoshiki and even forces Momoshiki on the ropes as he runs away from the Raikage. All of that implies the Raikage scales to Momoshiki.

Raikage = 78.2 ZT (5-B)

Gaara​

Gaara is able to use his sand to block attacks from Fused Momoshiki, and as such his sand scales rather blatantly to Fused Momo. Gaara has 0 physical feats in the manga, I don’t know if there’s anything in the anime to quantify him in that regard.

Gaara’s Sand = 156.4 ZT (5-B)

Naruto and Sasuke​

Naruto and Sasuke’s scaling is relatively simple with the following scaling chain.

5-B = Sasuke ~ Kinshiki =< Momoshiki ~< base Naruto > 50% base Naruto ~< Fused Momo ~ Sasuke ~< 50% SPSM KCM Naruto < Fused Momo’s Golem < Majestic Attire Susano’o

I’ll mention Sasuke first since he’s a bit simpler to discuss. Sasuke can either get his rating purely from scaling to or above his younger renditions (as alluded to in the Momo and Kin section), get his rating from fighting Kinshiki and obtaining Kinshiki’s rating separate from his fight with Sasuke (as mentioned in the Momo and Kin section), or in the anime Sasuke is able to contest Fused Momoshiki rather evenly (something he doesn’t do in the manga). Sasuke being able to contest Fused Momo while having fought Kinshiki isn't an inherent contradiction. Sasuke was searching for information at Kaguya's palace and was probing out Kinshiki and Momoshiki, so he may not have wanted to straight up kill any of them, plus he didn't know all their capabilities yet and opted to retreat instead. Also, Kinshki can contest Sasuke with Sasuke being only a couple of times stronger without that being inconsistent either. However, whether we should full on scale Sasuke to Fused Momo or only partially I'll leave up to discussion. That being said, I'm partial to the Fused Momo scaling as Sasuke shouldn't be below base Naruto (for reasons outlined further down below with his nerfed state).

Sasuke = 156.4 ZT (5-B)

Based solely off the manga Naruto in base should be scaling above the other Kage (excluding Gaara’s sand), as he was able to briefly hold his own against Fused Momo before being overpowered, additionally Naruto could take a kick from base Momo as well. Then in SPSM KCM, Naruto is able to turn the tides and overpower Fused Momoshiki. However, in the anime, which states Naruto had half his chakra drained, meaning he’d be at half power in his battle against Fused Momoshiki. All this means is Naruto’s full power and in base would be doubled what the manga suggests it is. This doesn’t inherently create any issues, as base Momo can just be objectively weaker than full power base Naruto but also in the same realm of power, and similarly with 50% base Naruto and Fused Momo. Either way base Naruto scales above the other Kage (not including Gaara’s sand) and his SPSM scales to/above Fused Momoshiki.

Naruto = 156.4 ZT (5-B), 312.8 ZT with SPSM KCM

Lastly, to touch upon the Majestic Attire Susano’o, I believe it is stated somewhere that the combination of Naruto and Sasuke is greater than the sum of their parts, so it can just scale to the sum of Naruto and Sasuke’s power at least.

Majestic Attire Susano’o = At least 469.2 ZT (5-B)

Sakura and Shin​

Sakura’s scaling is based on the following scaling chain, thank Tracer for this thot being here.

Sakura > Shin ~ Sasuke with no tomoe Rinnegan > Sasuke with no Rinnegan ~< 5-B

In Gaiden, we see Sakura outperform a rusty Naruto and a Sasuke with his Rinnegan but no tomoe. This is impressive, because as you’ll find out further down, Sasuke without his Rinnegan is still a threat to characters who scale decently into Planetary. Despite Sasuke being diminished of chakra from dimension hopping, he should be stronger with the no tomoe Rinnegan than without a Rinnegan at all. As such I am proposing Sakura and Shin scale to around base Adult Naruto levels of power, as Naruto (despite being rusty) said he'd need to go all out against Shin, and Sasuke with a no tomoe Rinnegan should scale above Sasuke with no Rinnegan.

Sakura = 156.4 ZT (5-B)
Shin = 156.4 ZT (5-B)

Scaling Chain​

Mizukage’s physicals ~< Kinshiki = 5-B ~ Sasuke ~ Mizukage’s Jutsu ~ Tsuchikage ~ Shikamaru =< Momoshiki ~ Raikage ~< base Naruto > 50% base Naruto ~< Fused Momoshiki ~ Sasuke possibly ~ Gaara’s Sand ~< 50% SPSM KCM Naruto < Fused Momo’s Golem < Majestic Attire Susano’o
Featuring
Sakura > Shin ~ Sasuke with no tomoe Rinnegan > Sasuke with no Rinnegan ~< 5-B

I’m proposing that everyone here has some sort of Planetary scaling, the discussion is more so centered on choosing what specific values given downscaling, quantified nerfs, etc. Now onwards to Kara, the “Otsutsuki level” cyborgs, and Isshiki (oh and Boruto and Kawaki I guess).

Delta​

Delta is fortunate to have an extremely fleshed out battle with Naruto. Naruto himself admits he’s going all out and the spectators even comment that he becomes enraged, and despite all of that Delta is able to consistently contest Naruto in taijutsu. Delta’s destructive eye beams are even implied to be able to cause extensive damage to Naruto, and it took a super massive Rasengan to eventually put her down. Naruto even dropped out of his SPSM KCM state at the end of the battle due to fatigue. It’s rather obvious Delta scales to Naruto’s full power and potentially even higher with her special eye lasers.

Delta = 312.8 ZT (5-B), higher with Destructive Beams

Kashin Koji​

Koji’s scaling is much more narrative based than feat based.

5-B = Delta =< Base Koji ~ 10% Otsutsuki form Jigen < 100% Otsutsuki form Jigen <<< Isshiki > Sage Mode Koji

As mentioned in the imgur, he was created for the purpose of killing Jigen, he’s confident he can defeat Delta in his base form, which is supported by Amado, and he even is able to briefly swap hands with Isshiki. Although, Isshiki soundly puts Koji into the dirt. Furthermore, we can deduce Koji is above Delta in base as he approaches her with a hand sign that is entirely different from what he does when he enters Sage Mode.

Koji = 312.8 ZT (5-B), higher with Sage Mode

Code​

Code’s scaling is entirely statement based, which isn’t bad since his statements are clear cut. The scaling I’ll be arguing is shown in this chain.

5-B = Delta < Limiter Karma Code < Otsutsuki form Jigen <<< Karma Code

Code is stated twice to possess combat ability superior to Delta’s. Realistically this should apply to at least Limiter Code’s strongest form (Karma), as nothing indicates which version of Limiter Code is superior, so I’ll assume his strongest to be safe. Also, while Code isn’t one shot by Bronco, it does look like Bronco (a reprogrammed Delta) is slightly superior to base Code. Furthermore, this is applicable to his stats as, unlike Boro, both Delta and Code are AP fighters. Logically, if Code were to be a superior fighter to Delta it would have to be due to his stats, since his only method of attacking is with his claws. Then once he gets his limiters removed, it’s stated numerous times his power far surpasses anything Jigen can do. I propose that with his limiters removed he upscale to Large Planet due to greatly surpassing Jigen (Jigen’s values can be found below). Finally, I only bring up Karma Code for greatly surpassing Jigen because Amado implies that it’s because of Code’s Karma that he’s as strong as he is.

Code = 312.8 ZT (5-B) with Karma, at least 3.128 YT (5-A) with Karma and limiters removed

Jigen/Isshiki​

Jigen/Isshiki’s scaling is relatively simple as laid out by his feats in the following scaling chain.

5-B = Base Naruto < Base Jigen < Karma Jigen >~ SPSM KCM Naruto
AND
5-B = Kashin Koji ~ 10% Otsutsuki form Jigen < 100% Otsutsuki form Jigen = 5-B+ or 5-A <<< Isshiki = 5-A possibly High 4-C

Edit: High 4-C dropped from discussion

Jigen consistently performs consistently well against anyone he scraps with. In base he’s able to overpower base Naruto, with his Karma he’s able to outperform both SPSM KCM Naruto and Sasuke, and with his Otsutsuki form he completely dominates Naruto and Sasuke’s strongest forms. Perhaps his best feat however is being able to contest Kashin Koji while in his Otsutsuki form at less than 10% of his full power. So, in base Jigen would scale above base Naruto, with Karma above SPSM KCM Naruto, and with his Otsutsuki form over 10x above Kashin Koji.

Jigen = 156.4 ZT (5-B), 312.8 ZT (5-B) with Karma, 3.128 YT with Otsutsuki form (5-A)

Isshiki is blatantly stated to be in a whole other dimension of power compared to Otsutsuki form Jigen. As such, Isshiki should either upscale to Large Planet or simply vaguely higher at bare minimum. This is heavily supported by his performance against Naruto and Sasuke, ragdolling the both of them the entire fight until Naruto uses Baryon Mode. However, Isshiki has another powerful statement that could potentially scale him far higher. It is stated that Isshiki is the strongest threat that the good guys have ever faced. This would logically scale Isshiki above Kaguya’s ETSO as we see Kakashi and the rest of Team 7 recognize the ETSO as a threat to the ninja world. However, I am not proposing this as objective as the word translated to threat can translate to enemy as well; that being said, I strongly believe Isshiki should scale with a possibly rating. Currently, no one besides Isshiki and Baryon Mode Naruto would scale as well, and as they scale in a vacuum it creates no inconsistencies. Lastly, I want to briefly touch upon why narratively it makes sense for Isshiki to be above anything Kaguya can do. Kaguya represents Samsara and the Six Paths, visually that’s portrayed all over her body with the patterns of 6 tomoe and her Rinnegan (Samsara Eye). Meanwhile, Isshiki represents a step beyond that with Dharma and the Noble Eightfold Path, visually that’s portrayed with the patterns of 8 tomoe and his eye which is an eight pointed star. Narratively speaking, Isshiki is meant to represent a caliber of character far beyond anything we’ve seen in the series prior, a step away from the Otsutsuki god his clan strives towards. Because of that, I believe a possibly rating is warranted at the very least.

Isshiki = At least 3.128 YT (5-A), possibly 8.14 Foe (High 4-C)

Edit: High 4-C dropped from discussion

Naruto and Sasuke​

Naruto and Sasuke are a bit of a weird case while nerfed, but at least Baryon Mode is easy. The scaling would probably go as follows.

5-B = Limiter Karma Code >~ Naruto without Kurama and Sasuke without Rinnegan
AND
5-B = Limiter Karma Code < 82% Momoshiki form Boruto >~ 80% Momoshiki form Boruto >~ Sasuke without Rinnegan

Despite being nerfed, Code is wary enough of Naruto and Sasuke to want his Limiters removed before fighting them. This implies a level of superiority for Code but not a gap large enough where Naruto and Sasuke aren’t at least somewhat relative. Additionally, Momoshiki form Boruto was still wary of Sasuke without his Rinnegan, and while the Borushiki that fought Code had more of Momoshiki downloaded, it wasn’t an astronomical amount more downloaded. Sasuke at the very least seems comparable to his pre-nerf and base Naruto, so he shouldn't be drastically weaker, maybe an at most rating would be sufficient.

Sasuke without Rinnegan = At most 156.4 ZT (5-B)

Naruto has less showings but might just be easier to scale, as his base form has plenty of feats prior. I think scaling Naruto without Kurama to his base form is perfectly fine. Then Baryon Mode Naruto obviously scales above Isshiki.

Naruto without Kurama = 156.4 ZT (5-B), higher with Sage Mode
AND
Baryon Mode Naruto = At least 3.128 YT (5-A), possibly 8.14 Foe (High 4-C)


Edit: High 4-C dropped from discussion

Boruto​

Boruto has some pretty good scaling to Code with his Karma, outlined in the following scaling chain.

5-B = Limiter Karma Code ~ True Karma Boruto < Otsutsuki form Boruto

Boruto rather objectively keeps pace with Karma Code with his limiters using the true form of Karma that Code teaches Boruto about. Then when Momoshiki takes over, he slams Code and even Code and Eida admit that Otsutsuki form Boruto is above Code’s current caliber at the moment.

Boruto = 312.8 ZT (5-B) with True Karma, higher with Otsutsuki form

Kawaki​

Kawaki has rather simple scaling to Boruto and above Code, as shown by this chain.

5-B = Limiter Karma Code ~ True Karma Boruto < Otsutsuki form Boruto =< Otsutsuki form Kawaki

Kawaki will simply scale to above Limiter Karma Code in the same vein Boruto does with his Otsutsuki form.

Kawaki = At least 312.8 ZT (5-B) with Otsutsuki form

Eida​

Eida is one of the cyborgs hypothesized to possess power far greater than anything Jigen can muster. However, she has yet to actually fight anyone or display any combat feats. So, I’m proposing for the time being she’s simply given a “likely” rating scaling above Otsutsuki form Jigen, based on Shikamaru’s hypothesis.
Eida = Unknown, likely at least 3.128 YT (5-A)
https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/6.5/png/unicode/64/1f410.png[/IMG] "]

Daemon​

Daemon slams Limiter Released Karma Code with negative difficulty, Code without his limiters scaling far above Jigen in terms of power. So, Daemon very clearly scales above Otsutsuki form Jigen as well.

Daemon = At least 3.128 YT (5-A)

Scaling Chain​

5-B = SPSM KCM Naruto ~ Delta =< Limiter Karma Code ~ True Karma Boruto < Otsutsuki form Boruto =< Otsutsuki form Kawaki
AND
5-A = Otsutsuki form Jigen <<< Limiter Released Karma Code = 5-A ~ likely Eida < Daemon
AND
Base Naruto < base Jigen < Karma Jigen >~ 5-B = SPSM KCM Naruto ~ Delta =< Kashin Koji ~ 10% Otsutsuki form Jigen < Otsutsuki form Jigen = 5-A <<< Isshiki = 5-A possibly High 4-C < Baryon Mode Naruto
AND
5-B = Otsutsuki form Boruto >~ No Rinnegan Sasuke ~< Limiter Karma Code = 5-B

For the most part, I’d say nothing too wild is being proposed, merely a bunch of knockoff Androids scaling to Naruto and Sasuke, featuring some potentially revolutionary Isshiki takes. I guess we wait until Code absorbs the Juubi and becomes discount Perfect Cell.
Bonus Round
Kakashi
Allegedly Kakashi is comparable to Kashin Koji in the anime. If that's true and someone wants to slide with scans confirming or denying that, that'd be cool. Kakashi never shows up in the main story, so he doesn't create any contradictions and would be fine to scale to Koji given he's comparable. Thanks to Tracer he found the clip showing Kakashi does scale:

Hokage Kakashi = 312.8 ZT (5-B)

Urashiki
Allegedly Urashiki as feats comparable to Gaara's sand and Sasuke prior to any nerfs. This would scale him to their level, and as far as anti-feats go, to my knowledge all of them occur while Urashiki is poisoned (aka they aren't contradictions). If someone has scans and wants to slide that'd be cool.

Urashiki = 156.4 ZT (5-B), higher after being a weird ****** bird or sumn

Agree: Shadow, Slayer, Tracer, LordGriffon (except for Kage + Shikamaru), KLOL (except Kage + Shin + Sakura + Urashiki + ETSO), DueDate
Disagree: Damage (mainly Kage + Shikamaru + Shin + Sakura)
Neutral:
Click to expand...

i agree except kakashi
 
Arc7Kuroi said:
Can you show me what scan you’re referring to specifically?
Click to expand...
After the Isshiki fight Sasuke says that Boruto lost consciousness before Momoshiki's takeover due to lack of Chakra. Meaning that Borushiki's Chakra level is on the brink.
0054-024.png


In the Code fight, Boruto was using drugs to utilize Momoshiki's power without being possessed, but eventually the drugs failed and Momoshiki took over.
0064-013.png
0064-021.png
0064-022.png

0064-039.png
0064-040.png
0064-041.png
0065-005.png


It makes no sense that we have 'Naruto lost half of his Chakra, let's assume he is weakened', and 'Jigen is recharging from losing almost all his Chakra, let assume he is incapable of briefly using his full strength against Koji'
while saying that we should completely dismiss the notion that Sasuke or Borushiki might get a significant nerf from being almost out of Chakra.

We should take this potential scenario into account, and simply see whether it results in less inconsistencies and powerscaling problems.
 
Agree with the OP, I can definitely understand the arguments presented against High 4-C, otherwise I'm ok with pretty much everything else.
 
UchihaSlayer96 said:
Additionally, Hagoromo has actually fought a much stronger Kaguya in the past, as she had merged with a complete Juubi that had none of its fragments missing
Click to expand...
That is not necessarily true. Yes she was missing fragments but she also had access to billions of people's chakra. Chakra has grown exponentially more powerful since the era where chakra was introduced to humans. Also the shinobi alliance were amped 4x over by Kurama's chakra which was also absorbed by her. This can certainly (over-) compensate half a Kurama
 
UchihaSlayer96 said:
I know people won't agree with me on this, and that's fine, but I personally don't really agree with scaling Madara directly to Hagoromo like this. I see the arguments, and they're not inherently wrong, but I personally just don't find them very solid.
Click to expand...
I'm fine with most of what you said, but I think 2 Eyed Madara~Hagoromo is pretty good. It all lines up with statements like Madara in a state 2 forms below his 2 eyed form scaling "close" to Hagoromo, lines up pretty well with calcs, and the Rinnegan not being a big amp thing is iffy given the gravitas around the idea that Madara would get his 2nd eye. It definitely should be quite an amp given that Sasuke losing his was noted as a large debuff. Plus, comparing Madara's performance directly against the same attack in his 1 eyed and 2 eyed state is quite a difference side by side.
main-qimg-5ffe7492c7ca2e5b8d6b2ab19c64a910
main-qimg-a5435aa366bb101648d4a533df09b058
 
Plus, comparing Madara's performance directly against the same attack in his 1 eyed and 2 eyed state is quite a difference side by side.
Click to expand...

The performance is completely different because the context is completely different. In the latter scene, Madara has access to more Limbo clones.
 
Shadowbokunohero said:
these colored panels are pretty where do yall get them.
Click to expand...
https://****************/manga/naruto-official-english-anime/
Damage3245 said:
The performance is completely different because the context is completely different. In the latter scene, Madara has access to more Limbo clones.
Click to expand...
That only mattered cause there were more of them attacking him. In his 1 eyed state he still couldn't stop Sasuke alone from cutting him in half like a piece of bread.
 
UchihaSlayer96 said:
Okay, so this is where I share my thoughts on the OP. I'm not really planning to argue here, as I'm personally extremely disinterested in most of the topics and characters being discussed here, and I honestly wasn't even sure if I'd comment at all. Simply put, I don't care that much about the God tiers, doubly so for anything that takes place in the Boruto Era. I'm sorry if that upsets anybody, but that's just how I feel. I may find the motivation to be more involved with God tier scaling in the future, but for now, this will be it. I'll share some thoughts, and ya'll can choose to ignore them or use them as you will. I won't be able to have prolonged back and forth arguments on this as I have other revisions (that are more important to me personally) to handle currently.
So........here goes.

I know people won't agree with me on this, and that's fine, but I personally don't really agree with scaling Madara directly to Hagoromo like this. I see the arguments, and they're not inherently wrong, but I personally just don't find them very solid.

For starters, the amp Madara got from the Rinnegan wasn't actually that massive. Not of his amps were, if you really wanna get into it. Let me elaborate:
  • We have an injured and still recovering Pre-Shinju Madara blocking an attack from SPSM Naruto, and surviving a direct hit from his Lava Rasenshuriken. It's clear that Naruto is stronger than him here, but the difference isn't actually massive.
  • Then he absorbed the Shinju, and was later capable of both blocking an attack from SPSM Naruto, and even hurting him physically. He was also able to withstand two attacks from Naruto and Sasuke. Now, Sasuke was able to hurt with both his sword and his Six Paths chakra enhanced Chidori, but Madara was kinda caught off-guard in both instances, and tbf, if only makes sense for comparable characters to harm each other, anyway, especially with AP enhancing techniques like Six Paths Chidori. So basically, my point is that Post-Shinju Madara is actually relative to Naruto and Sasuke.
  • Then we reach Dual Rinnegan Madara, and frankly, his performance hasn't really improved all that much. Naruto and Sasuke can still tank attacks from him just fine, and Naruto's clones are able to match him. (Btw, I know I refer to his Limbo clones as "him" a lot, but that's because they basically are. they're shadow versions of Madara himself, and are equal to him). So basically, what I'm saying is that I don't really see where Madara got an amp so massive it could cover a one-shot worthy difference, because all of his forms are just kinda relative to Naruto and Sasuke. He just went from being on the back foot Pre-Shinju, to simply being perfectly on-par with them with his later amps. At no point was Madara being shat on, and even when he was being pushed by Naruto, he was already recovering from a life-threatening injury, and still had decent feats against him.




Right, so I'm not gonna get too deeply into Boruto related stuff, but there are a few things I'd like to say about this.

For starters, I think this thread should be temporarily put on hold until you guys deal with this discussion rule. It prevents scaling Momoshiki above Kaguya, and I honestly completely forgot about it. I'm not gonna share my thoughts on it, as I really just don't wanna get into Boruto scaling at this time, but the rule should be dealt with first. My suggestion is that you create a staff thread addressing the rule, and get it removed. You could try asking Tempest to maybe participate in that if he wishes to defend his original position, but that's up to him. But the point is that Discussion Rules shouldn't be ignored. Again, I won't actually have a stake in the discussion itself, but I will give you guys some suggestions for the scaling depending on whether the discussion rule is removed or not.

Assuming the Discussion Rule get removed:
Well, this outcome makes things very simple.
Momoshiki and Kinshiki would scale to Kaguya (don't think they should scale above, as two being comparable to Kaguya should be enough to scare her IMO, plus it's a safer assumption), Fused Momoshiki would be 2x that, and nerfed Naruto and Sasuke would scale directly to Fused Momo.
The Kage's scaling would be exactly as outlined in the OP, same with Shikamaru, Sakura, and Shin (Yes, I agree with all of those).
Oh, and Momo would scale to Naruto with amped Ninjutsu, which makes sense as it's actually stated to double the power of the Jutsu he absorbed iirc (plus he was juiced on chakra pills). So he'd just get a "higher with Amplified Jutsu and Chakra Pills.
And that's it. Pretty simple shit.

Assuming the Discussion Rule remains:
This is where things get dicey, I suppose.
As we've extensively discussed yesterday on Discord, Sasuke cannot be scaling to both Kinshiki and Fused Momoshiki at the same time. He can't be scaling to two values simultaneously. We have to pick one. I think most of us agree that the most consistent thing narrative and feats wise is the Fused Momo scaling for a number of reasons. To name a few:
  • Sasuke actually straight up fights him alongside Naruto in the anime and manga. He has more direct feats in the anime, but it's not like he's featless in the manga.
  • When he fought Kinshiki, he was simply probing Kaguya's dimension and didn't want to expend too much chakra, so he had reason to hold back. Additional support would be that he only used his 3 tomoe in the anime, and seemed to only go all out with the EMS against Fused Momo. Same logic applies to him "failing" to decapitate Fused Momo, he simply didn't know yet how strong he'd gotten and underestimated him. This is interesting because Sasuke was later heavily implied to be capable of decapitating Jigen, and just had comparable portrayal to Naruto in both the Jigen and Momoshiki fights. Naruto clearly has more endurance, and could be argued to have a physical edge, but they're clearly portrayed to be in the same weight class and have equal portrayals. It's just that each one has their areas of strength.
  • Speaking of which, there's just several statements out there stating that Naruto and Sasuke are equals and that the only one capable of matching or rivalling Naruto is Sasuke, so yeah.
Click to expand...
Heavily disagree with them only being equal to her the anime makes it pretty blatant that they're her superiors in power (at least together) the novel also enforces the narrative that she needs the White Zetsu's to compete with them directly as well which that plot point hasn't really changed even if we don't accept that book as canon its written by the same author and the narrative beats for this portion of the arc have always remained the same so I think that in particular is fine to use as supplementary evidence
 
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