You were fooled Naruto speed

[Suigetsuhyugs]

This is not a debunk to this thread

Because that thread was "debunking" something that was never implied or used to begin with, that thread was based on a misunderstanding of another thread and the reason it scaled.
Again this is not a debunk I wont be showing my arguments i will be showing you why that thread is based on a misunderstanding of another thread and what was previously accepted and is different from what the debunk thread said it was based on.

likely FTL+ with Partial Ōtsutsuki Form (should be 10x faster than his weakened state which could outmatch fatigued base Naruto clones and fight Kashin Koji)

This was the reason that was added to the profile and the one that was accepted in this thread for why 10% Jigen was scaled to FTL. No one here ever claimed Jigen can only use 10% of Ishiki's power as was used as argument for the debunk

The main problem with the VSB-approved interpretation is that Jigen was at 10% when he first fought Naruto and Sasuke, which is actually a concealment of a crucial fact. It should be noted that Amado statement that Jigen was at less than 10% power was in chapter 43 of Boruto.

That meant in his condition, Jigen fought to the max against the Konoha Duo. Only after fighting, he lost a lot of chakra until the quantity was empty and it took several days to recover. It doesn't mean that Jigen who fought the Konoha Duo only fought with 10% as interpreted by VSB. So from this, it can be clearly seen the Half-Truth Fallacy by the thread, which is to hide the context that occurred why Amado said Jigen's strength was only 10%, which is the real context because Jigen was recovering against Duo Konoha. And Amado said that to Kashin Koji to see his next move to kill Isshiki.

What was accepted was that Jigen 10% would scale to "fatigued base Naruto clones" and now i will be showing you why that was accepted im not using my own arguments i 'm using the arguments that were used on the thread in the first place and thats why this will be a screenshot of that thread and not Manga/anime scans

Spoiler: Thread screenshot

As you can see the reason Naruto was scaling to 10% Jigen is because Ishiki hit is limit and cracks start to to appear which means he was lower than 10% because during the fight with Kashin Koji Jigen didnt had the cracks despite being at about 10%, during the fight with Kashin Koji the cracks actually show up again and Jigen states again that he reached his limit.

So no one is saying that Jigen was 10% the whole fight it was just at the end of it so much that the scan used on the reason was this one, since the fight between Jigen and Naruto clones happened after the cracks start to appear which would mean he was at least less than 10%.
So the chain it was stablished was this.
Jigen 100%>> Jigen 10%>>JIgen with cracks>~Naruto base= FTL

Extra

That thread also never spoke about Kashin koji part of the scalign which was also a supporting evidence for the 10% Jigen being FTL which was the main reason used on the OP of that thread to explain 10% Jigen being FTL

And by the way this is not entirely related

(Easily dodged Sasuke's Perfect Susano'o attack[3] and dodged all of Kurama's attacks[3]. His rod attacks are too fast even for Sasuke with his Sharingan)

This part should likely be erased of the profile or changed to fit somewhere because this is still there and not related to any of the scaling used now or before probably the result of multiple changes from people who carelessly changed the tiers.

Conclusion

The debunk FTL+ thread should be invalid as its based on a misunderstanding and or straight out lie made to manipulate people into believing he should not have had that scaling to begin with. Nothing here is new all this was in the thread that approved the FTL+ scaling something that was manipulated by the debunk thread.

 

[Tdjwo]

Following. Leaning towards agreeing.

 

[Halkum145]

I have already stated my reasons for participating in the previous thread, I am with you bro

 

[Hajunn]

following

 

[Stryker861]

Glad you actually pointed out the reasons for which it was accepted. Nuetral for now but I would like to see what others think

 

[Deagonx]

This isn't new information. The OP of the last thread addressed these claims in that thread. The downgrade challenged the basic premise of quantifying Jigen's full speed relative to percentages of chakra, by arguing that full power Jigen was comparable in speed to Kaguya, who is comparable in speed to Naruto and Sasuke.

 

[Stryker861]

This isn't new information. The OP of the last thread addressed these claims in that thread. The downgrade challenged the basic premise of quantifying Jigen's full speed relative to percentages of chakra, by arguing that full power Jigen was comparable in speed to Kaguya, who is comparable in speed to Naruto and Sasuke.

Full power jigen and kaguya are in no way comparable in speed like at all... Claiming that in itself is already completly wrong

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

This isn't new information. The OP of the last thread addressed these claims in that thread. The downgrade challenged the basic premise of quantifying Jigen's full speed relative to percentages of chakra, by arguing that full power Jigen was comparable in speed to Kaguya, who is comparable in speed to Naruto and Sasuke.

No, the thread claimed that Kaguya and Ishiki should be equal based on "caught off guard", which by the way at least one of the staff members completely disagreed, and that argument was completely destroyed in any comments there. If you agree with that then lets bring a new CRT to amp Captain Bumerangue to MFTL+ based on caught flash off guard
That argument was not important to begin with the misunderstading was part of 2 arguments used in that thread.

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

This isn't new information. The OP of the last thread addressed these claims in that thread. The downgrade challenged the basic premise of quantifying Jigen's full speed relative to percentages of chakra, by arguing that full power Jigen was comparable in speed to Kaguya, who is comparable in speed to Naruto and Sasuke.

By all means Kaguya is scaled to Naruto and Sasuke based on

FTL (She moved too fast for Rinnegan Sasuke to react and casually overwhelmed hundreds of Six Paths Sage Mode Naruto Shadow Clones in speed

This very much so seems like she is unquantifiable higher than Naruto and Sasuke since she is "too fast" for Sasuke and "casually overwhelmed" Naruto.

 

[Deagonx]

These alleged misunderstandings were pointed out in the original thread, and the OP addressed them directly multiple times.

As seen here, Jigen's body reaches the limit when it cracks, and at this limit he gains the upper hand against Naruto's clones.
Now you will say that the jigen was not 10% in the war, it was only in the kashin koji war. The point I want to draw attention to here is the breaking of the body. Since Jigen's body was broken, his chakra would almost reach 0 point and if he didn't fill the chakra again, he wouldn't actually be 10% against koji.
As seen here, jigen kashin drops to less than 10% while fighting koji and his body cracks again. he almost went from 0 chakra to 10% and his cracks were fixed but his body cracked as his chakra fell while fighting kashin koji again

Halkum, you didn't read the thread rightly. I have explain about this in the third point of my premise. I am aware about that, what I assert is the inconsistency of narrative scaling of Kaguya to Isshiki, and also how Jigen is basically can have Isshiki's power maximally, but in a very limited time.

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

This isn't new information. The OP of the last thread addressed these claims in that thread. The downgrade challenged the basic premise of quantifying Jigen's full speed relative to percentages of chakra, by arguing that full power Jigen was comparable in speed to Kaguya, who is comparable in speed to Naruto and Sasuke.

And the information that is on this thread was indeed brought up but completely ignored and thats why i made a CRT for that

 

[Deagonx]

You're not allowed to immediately attempt to re-address an issue with a new CRT after unsuccessfully arguing against it in an earlier thread.

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

These alleged misunderstandings were pointed out in the original thread, and the OP addressed them directly multiple times.

And that thread proves nothing so much that the multiplier is still there in the profile

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

You're not allowed to immediately attempt to re-address an issue with a new CRT after unsuccessfully arguing against it in an earlier thread.

And i discussed that earlier too this same Debunk thread was made about 1 month after the first was aproved which is supposedly against the rules

 

[Stryker861]

These alleged misunderstandings were pointed out in the original thread, and the OP addressed them directly multiple times.

Addressing something does not mean that they were correct(they werent). Any knolegible memeber can tell you that kaguya does not scale to ishiki due to a specifically offguard feat. That thread was treating teen naruto and sasuke as if they were the same strength as they were being adults(they arent)

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

These alleged misunderstandings were pointed out in the original thread, and the OP addressed them directly multiple times.

BTW since this seems not enough to convince you then I will adress the third argument which was based on full Ishiki who can use all his power but that point never adresses the fact that Jigen 10% has lower speed which was very much discussed on the original thread with explanations why lower chakra = lower speed.
The "likely" was kept because we dont know for sure if the chakra is proporcional but that thread covered the part of lower chakra = lower speed.

 

[ssgengar]

Oh boy. I’ll read thru this later

 

[Testarossa002]

This isn't new information. The OP of the last thread addressed these claims in that thread. The downgrade challenged the basic premise of quantifying Jigen's full speed relative to percentages of chakra, by arguing that full power Jigen was comparable in speed to Kaguya, who is comparable in speed to Naruto and Sasuke.

Most People only agreed from what I saw (myself included) because they believed so from their own reasoning

Not particularly because of the OP's debunk

Most of the arguments made by the OP itself is ass

There's like a bajillion people between kaguya and Boruto Era Narusuke on the scaling chain

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

Most People only agreed from what I saw (myself included) because they believed so from their own reasoning

Not particularly because of the OP's debunk

Most of the arguments made by the OP itself is ass

Which is bias and should not have any weight on the downgrade, either find good reasons for the downgrade or just undo that.

 

[Testarossa002]

The 10% scaling like I suggested when Stryker made the initial thread was something that deserved it's own thread

As it'll directly affect how we treat chakra nerfs/amps for Narutoverse in general

And shadow also says this

on a premise level l i Obviously agree with the 10% thing, and im pretty sure most people on that thread do now too, we have been talking about removing it for a long time, it was going to happen when the inevitable Boruto God tier revision drops. but the arguments your making isnt something that the original OP argued.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Why are we assuming fatigued base Naruto is FTL? Naruto just got his ass whooped by Jigen and was pinned down Pain style, unable to break himself free. So, what is the scaling for fatigued base Naruto being FTL?

Also, Jigen's stomach having cracks does not prove that is when he reached 10%, at all. He's 10% AFTER the fight, when we are told he's 10%, not before.

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

Why are we assuming fatigued base Naruto is FTL? Naruto just got his ass whooped by Jigen and was pinned down Pain style, unable to break himself free. So, what is the scaling for fatigued base Naruto being FTL?

Also, Jigen's stomach having cracks does not prove that is when he reached 10%, at all. He's 10% AFTER the fight, when we are told he's 10%, not before.

Naruto base is FTL havent you checked his profile? And Naruto while being unable to even use chakra is relativistic despite being fatigued he can still use chakra and by all means Naruto was also fatigued against Momoshiki and still managed to react to Fused momoshiki actually even after losing his kurama cloak he could still make a ransegan strong enough to destroy fused momoshiki.

It does if you read that corrently you will see that when those cracks appear Jigen states he is at his limit and then we have Amado stating he wwas almost 0 when he was being put to recharge, when Kashin koji fights Jigen he was at less than 10% stated by Amado at one point of the fight cracks start to appear again and he states again that he is on his limit. I think this is very clear

 

[ssgengar]

Naruto base is FTL havent you checked his profile?

Why are we assuming fatigued base Naruto is FTL?

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Naruto base is FTL havent you checked his profile?

I didn't ask about base Naruto, I asked about a fatigued beat up base Naruto.

And Naruto while being unable to even use chakra is relativistic despite being fatigued he can still use chakra and by all means Naruto was also fatigued against Momoshiki and still managed to react to Fused momoshiki actually even after losing his kurama cloak he could still make a ransegan strong enough to destroy fused momoshiki.

Naruto was not as fatigued against Momo as he was at the end of his fight with Jigen. But since we use the rel stuff, I'll agree that fatigued base Naruto can be relativistic. Not FTL tho, nothing about it says he's FTL, most you can say is he'd be relativistic.

It does if you read that corrently you will see that when those cracks appear Jigen states he is at his limit and then we have Amado stating he wwas almost 0 when he was being put to recharge, when Kashin koji fights Jigen he was at less than 10% stated by Amado at one point of the fight cracks start to appear again and he states again that he is on his limit. I think this is very clear

Ok so your evidence is speculation, awesome.

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

I didn't ask about base Naruto, I asked about a fatigued beat up base Naruto.


Naruto was not as fatigued against Momo as he was at the end of his fight with Jigen. But since we use the rel stuff, I'll agree that fatigued base Naruto can be relativistic. Not FTL tho, nothing about it says he's FTL, most you can say is he'd be relativistic.

First this is not my argument it was the argument used on the thread that this was applied.

Naruto when he fought momoshiki had his chakra absorbed with Kurama, when Naruto gave Boruto that Rasengan he was pinned by chakra rods and still managed to give an AP comparable to momoshiki there is also the fact that he didnt made clones at that time. But he used 4 clones to distract Jigen.

Ok so your evidence is speculation, awesome.

You literally were ok into agreeing with a misunderstanding and yes i saw your comments and you specifically agreed with the same argument that it was a lie so are you really the best judge for that?

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

And dont forget that he scales with fatigued Naruto and scales with kashin koji so there is 2 FTL scaling for 10% jigen

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Fatigued Base Naruto has no reason to be FTL whatsoever.

The scaling chain is this: no chakra base Naruto (Relativistic) ~< fatigued base Naruto from the Jigen fight < base Naruto (FTL)

The most you can say about the fatigued base Naruto at the end of the Jigen fight (who couldn't even move himself off the rods) is that he'd be at least as fast as his no chakra self. Aka he'd be at least relativistic. Idk why you keep bringing up the Momo fight, when Naruto was only drained of half of his chakra, so he still has a lot in the tank. The "fatigued" base Naruto from the Momo fight was up and about able to fight and participate in combat, the fatigued base Naruto from the Jigen fight couldn't even get himself up. They aren't the same levels of fatigue.

There is actually no evidence to say that Naruto is FTL, he'd be maybe vaguely faster than relativistic. So, if I grant you that Jigen was 10% against that Naruto, then it would just make 100% Jigen FTL, aka where he already scales.

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

Fatigued Base Naruto has no reason to be FTL whatsoever.

The scaling chain is this: no chakra base Naruto (Relativistic) ~< fatigued base Naruto from the Jigen fight < base Naruto (FTL)

The most you can say about the fatigued base Naruto at the end of the Jigen fight (who couldn't even move himself off the rods) is that he'd be at least as fast as his no chakra self. Aka he'd be at least relativistic. Idk why you keep bringing up the Momo fight, when Naruto was only drained of half of his chakra, so he still has a lot in the tank. The "fatigued" base Naruto from the Momo fight was up and about able to fight and participate in combat, the fatigued base Naruto from the Jigen fight couldn't even get himself up. They aren't the same levels of fatigue.

There is actually no evidence to say that Naruto is FTL, he'd be maybe vaguely faster than relativistic. So, if I grant you that Jigen was 10% against that Naruto, then it would just make 100% Jigen FTL, aka where he already scales.

Lol really? Base Naruto before he activated the cloak wasnt using Kurama's chakra until he actually activated it so he was using his base chakra that was parcially absorbed with Kurama's.
The "fatigued" base Naruto from Momo was on the floor with multiple black rods on his chest wasnt even standing up.
Base Naruto that fought Jigen lost barely any of his own chakra since he used the Kurama cloak since very soon, the Naruto that was pinned by black rods still had good amount of his own chakra enough to make multiple clones, the reason he didnt left the rods its maybe because he couldnt touch the ground or he didnt have enough chakra to take the rods off which was true for Base Naruto full since he activated the kurama cloak to take Jigen's rods off his body at the start of the fight.

 

[Stryker861]

Most People only agreed from what I saw (myself included) because they believed so from their own reasoning

This is pretty much why I didn't bother arguing about it in the other thread sense people seemed to have their own reasons for disagreeing rather than then the op's. And yea like shadow said the boruto revisions haven't happened yet so I'm kind of nuetral on the whole thing until everything gets sorted out when we get there as of right now.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

The "fatigued" base Naruto from Momo was on the floor with multiple black rods on his chest wasnt even standing up.

That Naruto was more fatigued and injured than the base Naruto that kept up with Fused Momo, stop being dishonest.

Y'all are reaching for the stars trying to scale a beaten fatigued Naruto to or over a Naruto that in reality wasn't all that drained. There's actually 0 comparison between start of Fused Momo fight base Naruto and defeated base Naruto end of Jigen fight. We can agree to disagree, cuz I'm not really interested in repeating "he was, he wasn't" with you, there's not much to say regarding this anyway.

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

That Naruto was more fatigued and injured than the base Naruto that kept up with Fused Momo, stop being dishonest.

Y'all are reaching for the stars trying to scale a beaten fatigued Naruto to or over a Naruto that in reality wasn't all that drained. There's actually 0 comparison between start of Fused Momo fight base Naruto and defeated base Naruto end of Jigen fight. We can agree to disagree, cuz I'm not really interested in repeating "he was, he wasn't" with you, there's not much to say regarding this anyway.

Really? Because Naruto spent the entire time sealed away inside with those rods on his body and he still had enough chakra to keep Kawaki's arm funcional and he still had chakra after Borushiki stole it to make huge rasengans to defeat Boru, while after fighting momoshiki he could barely even stand

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

while after fighting momoshiki he could barely even stand

At the end of the Momo fight Naruto doesn't scale to fused Momo. He scales to fused Momo somewhat in base at the start of the fight before he becomes super fatigued. So this is a moot point.

 

[Deagonx]

@Suigetsuhyugs Stop starting every comment with "really?" or "lol really?"

People are allowed to disagree with you. Make your argument without the constant exasperated gestures.

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

At the end of the Momo fight Naruto doesn't scale to fused Momo. He scales to fused Momo somewhat in base at the start of the fight before he becomes super fatigued. So this is a moot point.

It is a moot point this was agreed to begin with by 3 staff members and keep in mind that in this case both AP and speed are porpocional to chakra because there was proof that speed is lower when chakra is lower, the likely doesnt need to have concrete proof that speed = chakra but in this case we have enough evidence for a "likely", if Naruto had enough AP to kill fused momoshiki he would have enough chakra to boost his level close to Momoshiki's speed level since he can scale AP with momoshiki that means he could also do it for speed.
Again which you clearly ignore that 10% jigen is also scaling of Kashin Koji who is comparable to Delta so again he has 2 chains for FTL but you only want to talk about one because you have no argumetns for the second one, thats exacly why i made this thread arguments that are ignored and buried on the thread because no one answers to them

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

@Suigetsuhyugs Stop starting every comment with "really?" or "lol really?"

People are allowed to disagree with you. Make your argument without the constant exasperated gestures.

I dont see how thats a problem

 

[Deagonx]

Nonetheless, stop doing that.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Why are we assuming fatigued base Naruto is FTL? Naruto just got his ass whooped by Jigen and was pinned down Pain style, unable to break himself free. So, what is the scaling for fatigued base Naruto being FTL?

Mhmm, this. There's absolutely no real reason to assume that a base Naruto that had been beaten to hell and back by Jigen should scale to the same level as a fresh-ish Naruto against Fused Momoshiki.

Also, Jigen's stomach having cracks does not prove that is when he reached 10%, at all. He's 10% AFTER the fight, when we are told he's 10%, not before.

Exactly. There's no real proof that "crack = 10%". We're told that he reached the 10% mark later on, but we have no proof he was at around 10% in this moment.

And finally, and perhaps most importantly, we do not even accept that speed is amped linearly with chakra amount. It has like a billion anti-feats for why it doesn't work that way. So the whole premise is flawed to begin with.
I disagree with the FTL+ scaling.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

It is a moot point this was agreed to begin with by 3 staff members

Staff agreeing with it in the past doesn't mean much in the now.

if Naruto had enough AP to kill fused momoshiki he would have enough chakra to boost his level close to Momoshiki's speed level since he can scale AP with momoshiki that means he could also do it for speed.

No lol because Choodama Rasengan is a massive amp to his regular stats. Naruto's phyiscals ~ Rasengan < Odama Rasengan < Choodama Rasengan. Naruto killing Momo with a massively amped attack does not mean anything for his speed whatsoever.

Again which you clearly ignore that 10% jigen is also scaling of Kashin Koji who is comparable to Delta so again he has 2 chains for FTL but you only want to talk about one because you have no argumetns for the second one, thats exacly why i made this thread arguments that are ignored and buried on the thread because no one answers to them

Not ignoring it, we just weren't talking about it, ik well about it cuz I'm the one who got that accepted in my og God Tier thread lol. However, I since disagree with it since 1) base Koji never actually fight Delta and 2) Koji just said he could take down Delta, he never specifies how. So we don't know what Koji had in his arsenal for Delta. It's not concrete to say his base stats are >= Delta's, when stats aren't the only thing important in a fight.

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

Exactly. There's no real proof that "crack = 10%". We're told that he reached the 10% mark later on, but we have no proof he was at around 10% in this moment.

And finally, and perhaps most importantly, we do not even accept that speed is amped linearly with chakra amount. It has like a billion anti-feats for why it doesn't work that way. So the whole premise is flawed to begin with.
I disagree with the FTL+ scaling.

It actually there is proof of that the cracks means he is inferior to 10% actually after the fight with NAruto and Sasuke we get a scene where amado states that Jigen was almost at 0% which means he is lower than 10%

 

[Stryker861]

Disagree fra