So........here goes.
I know people won't agree with me on this, and that's fine, but I personally don't really agree with scaling Madara directly to Hagoromo like this. I see the arguments, and they're not inherently wrong, but I personally just don't find them very solid.
For starters, the amp Madara got from the Rinnegan wasn't actually that massive. Not of his amps were, if you really wanna get into it. Let me elaborate:
- We have an injured and still recovering Pre-Shinju Madara blocking an attack from SPSM Naruto, and surviving a direct hit from his Lava Rasenshuriken. It's clear that Naruto is stronger than him here, but the difference isn't actually massive.
- Then he absorbed the Shinju, and was later capable of both blocking an attack from SPSM Naruto, and even hurting him physically. He was also able to withstand two attacks from Naruto and Sasuke. Now, Sasuke was able to hurt with both his sword and his Six Paths chakra enhanced Chidori, but Madara was kinda caught off-guard in both instances, and tbf, if only makes sense for comparable characters to harm each other, anyway, especially with AP enhancing techniques like Six Paths Chidori. So basically, my point is that Post-Shinju Madara is actually relative to Naruto and Sasuke.
- Then we reach Dual Rinnegan Madara, and frankly, his performance hasn't really improved all that much. Naruto and Sasuke can still tank attacks from him just fine, and Naruto's clones are able to match him. (Btw, I know I refer to his Limbo clones as "him" a lot, but that's because they basically are. they're shadow versions of Madara himself, and are equal to him). So basically, what I'm saying is that I don't really see where Madara got an amp so massive it could cover a one-shot worthy difference, because all of his forms are just kinda relative to Naruto and Sasuke. He just went from being on the back foot Pre-Shinju, to simply being perfectly on-par with them with his later amps. At no point was Madara being shat on, and even when he was being pushed by Naruto, he was already recovering from a life-threatening injury, and still had decent feats against him.
So basically, I just don't personally see the amps he received as being enough to cover whatever gap there was between him and Hagoromo. It feels very speculative to me personally.
Now let's actually discuss the direct Madara-Hagoromo stuff.
Imma be completely honest, I don't think Madara should be equal to Hagoromo at any point. The guys he was matching at his peak were just given said power to match him by less than half of Hagoromo's chakra (less because if he'd given each exactly half of his chakra, he would literally cease to exist, as he's a purely chakra based existence at this point).
And I know what you're going to say. "Chakra amount doesn't always equate to AP", "They could've received greater amps than the raw sum of chakra they received", "They had their own power beforehand that could've made a difference", etc.
Here's the thing, though. Chakra amount does matter if comparable chakra control is in play. And in this case, it most certainly is. Sasuke's chakra control and skill was
directly compared to Hagoromo's, meaning they canonically have comparable chakra control. Likewise, Six Paths sage Mode was stated to bring Naruto a perfect understanding of Chakra, which he displays by effortlessly wielding the Bijuu's Kekkei Genkai natures, doing effortless one-handed Rasenshurikens, making thousands of clones without getting any weaker, healing people, etc etc. And this state is both used and provided to Naruto directly by Hagoromo, so it's consistent. So Hagoromo has comparable chakra control to these guys, at the very least, which means that him having more chakra is actually indicative of him being superior.
Now, regarding their "previous power making the difference". Their previous power is, simply put, irrelevant. Sasuke was weaker than Juubito with several amps, and was normally just around Bijuu level give or take. Naruto was also much weaker than Juubito, but didn't have to rely on any amps (outside of Sage Mode), which would explain why he's slightly superior to Sasuke at their peak Six Paths levels. But again, the key word here is slightly. The Hagoromo amp is SO FAR above what they were capable of before that it actually allowed SPSM (no cloak) Naruto to match Madara, who's far above Juubito, who was previously ******** on peak Naruto while mentally nerfing himself. Their previous power is just absolutely irrelevant IMHO.
SPSM Naruto >~ Juubidara >> Juubito > Mentally Nerfed Juubito >> BSM Naruto ~ CS Kyuubi amped Sasuke > Biju Mode Naruto >> EMS Sasuke
Like, I feel it'd be a bit disingenuous to say that their previous power, which was irrelevant to Juubito, would propel them to be on par with or above Hagoromo, who literally provided them with an amp that took them from country (possibly continental) ranges to small planetary-planetary ranges. But maybe that's just me.
Now, onto Madara being narratively implied to have reached Hags' level, and instead aiming for Kaguya's power. This, in my view, is pure speculation and is unsupported IMO. He had that intention, but we know for a fact that he did not succeed. He's verbatim stated to be
significantly inferior to Kaguya,
twice. He failed to reach Kaguya's power, and is never really confirmed to have reached Hagoromo's power in actuality. So personally speaking, I don't find this all that solid to base the scaling of dozens of characters on, as it's too specualtive imo.
And regarding
this statement. I don't really view this as acknowledgement for Madara having reached Hags' level, I believe it is simply Naruto remembering what Hagoromo told him regarding kaguya in context, as Sasuke had just mentioned her. So I think you were reading a bit too much into it with that one, personally speaking.
And for the "Unlocking the true power of the Six Paths" statement. Again, it's just referencing the fact that the Rinnegan's power (which is rooted in Six Paths lore, and actually possess the Six Paths techniques) are only truly unlocked when the pair is together, which is actually common for any Dojutsu. I don't see it as any confirmation that Madara became dead equal to Hagoromo.
Additionally, Hagoromo has actually fought a much stronger Kaguya in the past, as she had merged with a complete Juubi that had none of its fragments missing. Fighting the prime Juubi is part of his lore, and is re-iterated time and again, so I'd say that in addition to everything above, that would support Hags being above Madara, who's confirmed as much weaker than revived Kaguya.
The way I personally see it, the "he's getting close to me" statement can still make sense by Madara simply scaling to Naruto and Sasuke (slightly below them pre-Shinju and relative to them post-Shinju and Rinnegan), who would in turn either scale to half of Hags' power, or simply downscale from him and Kaguya via their showings. He'd still be "close" to Hagoromo then, so nothing would actually be contradicted, and it would be more solid scaling with no speculation involved IMHO.
I know that people will disgaree with this take, because everyone upscaling Hags' feat is kinda exciting I guess, and that's fine. I almost wasn't really gonna even mention this, and I don't even plan to argue further about this, but I thought it'd be good to get my thoughts out there. What ya'll do with them is up to you. This is simply my stance, and how I personally view the scaling.
Like I said, I personally find it better to downscale them from Kaguya and use the half Hags stuff as support, as well as Madara's own Low 5-B feat.
And on the Kaguya points, it definitely should be a downscale, not a direct scale, as Kaguya is blatantly superior to both of them, as well as Madara (who is ~ to them as I've shown above). Kaguya also easily demolished Sasuke's perfect Susano'o, which is equal to Naruto's own Kurama avatar, twice and tanked 9 Biju Rasenshurikens from Naruto while stated to be low on chakra. One could even argue that Kaguya was nerfed throughout the whole fight, as she immediately performed her world switching, which we know drains a massive chunk of her chakra. So it's honestly just more cosistent for Kaguya to be superior IMO. Their high-end feats against her don't exactly outweigh the low-end ones where she dominates them, and most can even be explained by her being low on chakra from dimension hopping. Again, it could just be me, but that's how I view it.
I think Toneri scaling to half of the LOJ based on your logic is fine, and then having a "Likely
Planet level" rating based on the Hamura implications would be good.
Although, frankly, base Naruto should downscale from his SPSM self in Shippuden anyway via matching Sasuke, and having numerous showings of SPSM and KCM not being big amps for him anymore, but I guess we're just not tackling that rn? Cause, it'd support Toneri being planetary, and would take base Nard out of Unknown limbo.
Right, so I'm not gonna get too deeply into Boruto related stuff, but there are a few things I'd like to say about this.
For starters, I think this thread should be temporarily put on hold until you guys deal with
this discussion rule. It prevents scaling Momoshiki above Kaguya, and I honestly completely forgot about it. I'm not gonna share my thoughts on it, as I really just don't wanna get into Boruto scaling at this time, but the rule should be dealt with first. My suggestion is that you create a staff thread addressing the rule, and get it removed. You could try asking Tempest to maybe participate in that if he wishes to defend his original position, but that's up to him. But the point is that Discussion Rules shouldn't be ignored. Again, I won't actually have a stake in the discussion itself, but I will give you guys some suggestions for the scaling depending on whether the discussion rule is removed or not.
Assuming the Discussion Rule get removed:
Well, this outcome makes things very simple.
Momoshiki and Kinshiki would scale to Kaguya (don't think they should scale above, as two being comparable to Kaguya should be enough to scare her IMO, plus it's a safer assumption), Fused Momoshiki would be 2x that, and nerfed Naruto and Sasuke would scale directly to Fused Momo.
The Kage's scaling would be exactly as outlined in the OP, same with Shikamaru, Sakura, and Shin (Yes, I agree with all of those).
Oh, and Momo would scale to Naruto with amped Ninjutsu, which makes sense as it's actually stated to double the power of the Jutsu he absorbed iirc (plus he was juiced on chakra pills). So he'd just get a "higher with Amplified Jutsu and Chakra Pills.
And that's it. Pretty simple shit.
Assuming the Discussion Rule remains:
This is where things get dicey, I suppose.
As we've extensively discussed yesterday on Discord, Sasuke cannot be scaling to both Kinshiki and Fused Momoshiki at the same time. He can't be scaling to two values simultaneously. We have to pick one. I think most of us agree that the most consistent thing narrative and feats wise is the Fused Momo scaling for a number of reasons. To name a few:
- Sasuke actually straight up fights him alongside Naruto in the anime and manga. He has more direct feats in the anime, but it's not like he's featless in the manga.
- When he fought Kinshiki, he was simply probing Kaguya's dimension and didn't want to expend too much chakra, so he had reason to hold back. Additional support would be that he only used his 3 tomoe in the anime, and seemed to only go all out with the EMS against Fused Momo. Same logic applies to him "failing" to decapitate Fused Momo, he simply didn't know yet how strong he'd gotten and underestimated him. This is interesting because Sasuke was later heavily implied to be capable of decapitating Jigen, and just had comparable portrayal to Naruto in both the Jigen and Momoshiki fights. Naruto clearly has more endurance, and could be argued to have a physical edge, but they're clearly portrayed to be in the same weight class and have equal portrayals. It's just that each one has their areas of strength.
- Speaking of which, there's just several statements out there stating that Naruto and Sasuke are equals and that the only one capable of matching or rivalling Naruto is Sasuke, so yeah.
I'd say the most consistent thing is that Naruto and Sasuke are relative, and that Fused Momo would scale/downscale from their nerfed self.
As for Momoshiki and Kinshiki individually, I'd say the best way to deal with them is to either downscale them from their Fused self, or simply divide the value they scale to by half. Atlernatively, Kinshiki could simply downscale from Sasuke and Momo simply scales to him, but in that case, I'd personally not use the multiplier for Fused Momo as it'd make things weird. Just scale Fused Momo to Naruto and Sussy and downscale the individual aliens from that value. Simple,
The Kage's scaling would be pretty much the same, so nothing changes there. Same with Shikamaru.
Aside from these points I made, I think everything else is relatively fine. I'm iffy on Koji scaling in base above Delta and Naruto (especially when Amado himself said that only Naruto and Sasuke would be capable of fighting Isshiki, and that Koji didn't stand a chance, implying that he believes they're superior), and I'm also kinda iffy on Delta being equal to Naruto when he was implied to not be going all out. Also a bit concerned about no Rinnegan Sasuke and Borushiki scaling, but honestly, it's whatever. It works well enough I suppose, and like I said, I don't wanna actually get into Boruto scaling lmao.
