Straight forward enough I agree.
Doesn’t even need to be a possibly since the First Gate is an accepted 5x multiplier it would just be higher with 1st Gate with the justification outlining that it’s a 5x stats amp.
Same as with the Obito one. Agreed
Agreed
Meh I’m a bit iffy on scaling him to a pretty casual one shot from Fused Momo. Especially since Gaara is known for wearing Sand Armor over his skin a lot of the time. However there’s no real indicator that he is wearing it in this scene so I’m fine with downscaling off Fused Momo.
This is good
Again real straight forward
Im fine with possibly, though I would tweak the justifications to maybe just being how powerful the Otsutsuki viewed him and his solo fight with Toneris Golem as the main focus.
Always agreed with this. If you hadn’t I would have eventually lol
Yeah limited makes sense.
Yep
I agree
Yep
I mean as we saw from the Totsuka thread people can be iffy about Soul Manipulation/Dura Neg for being called a spiritual ability. But unlike Totsuka I don’t believe this has any anti feats so I’ll agree for now.
Surprised they don’t already have this.
just Immense Pain Tolerance works. Idk if supernatural will power is really applicable here.
Yep
Even higher attack speed with Kebari Senbon works
I’ll just stay neutral on this for now.
This too
This is good tho
This too
Neutral on this too. I don’t think we have it accepted that chakra amps will amp Ap proportionally to Speed. I could be wrong though.
This probably needs its own thread tbh
Yeah...so implement in another CRT
Yea its just for post six paths buffs
I'll scratch the kisame stuffKisame - Uh I looked at the raws and as far as I can tell they don't say anything about spirits
気弾の群れに紛れ込み、そのまま敵の包囲を突破するために使うこともある。
It mentions nothing about needing six paths chakra to use. The description litterally says it comes from the Mangkeyo sharingan and the NEXT part is talking about the big Skeletal version - Full body/perfect susanoo. It literally is just saying that the armor in the PS can become wings.
probably should have worded that better in the op. Im not saying base jigen is faster than spsm naruto at all, im saying at worst he is much faster than base naruto and base naruto was comparible to casual delta who koji should scale to. delta is not the only reason koji scales, look at my previous posts, We already know that naruto was supposed to be the strongest shinobi. That doesent prevent other people scaling to or above him later on. k2 jigen is extremely casual the entire fight agaisnt naruto and sasuke and has no trouble outspeeding them when he wants to, same with ishiki.
The mention of the next form is after the sentence talking about the full body.
But based on current scaling, that is basically what you're proposing. Base Jigen (>10x)>Less than 10% Base Jigen~Base Koji~Delta~SPSM Naruto. For AP that at least had a remote possibility of being true (still vehemently disagreed), but considering Naruto and Sasuke were comfortably keeping pace with K1 Jigen the entire fight, it doesn't make sense at all for speed. And yeah other characters can be stronger later like Daemon and Code but there are even statements in the Isshiki arc like Amado saying Naruto and Sasuke have the highest battle power and are the only ones who have a chance of taking on Isshiki. Was Jigen really that casual? He pushed himself so hard that his body started cracking. And Isshiki was trying to kill them yet they still reacted to him several times.
oh I think i see the confusion here. I am not proposing a 10x difrence between base 10% jigen to base Jigen. I am proposing a 10x diffrence between k2 10% jigen and Full power k2 Jigen specifically sense koji could still react and fight agaist that jigen. 10% base to k2 jigen doesent change much in stats at all compared to full power base to k2
ik but it seems like its refereing to Perfect susanoo as its next form from the previous stages and mentions nothing of six paths chakra.
He wasent saying they scale to ishiki at all because thats kind of what it sounds like your implying. hes just saying that if somehow someone is able to beat him, it would be them.
k2 specfically wasent having any trouble physcally outmatching them by a long shot, His body was already fragile as it was, his body cracking doesent mean he was "trying hard" in the traditional sense, it just means the vessel merely couldent sustain him outputing that level of power and chakra for long amounts of time. Ishiki was not trying to kill them at all. he was just trying to torture kawakis location out of them. Ishiki quite litterally could have ended there lives at any time he wanted. How would killing them extend his life? I showed a whole bunch of instances of them unable to react at all through out this thread . And again ishiki was extremely casual throught the entire fight and only gets tagged once or twice when he's too lazy to dodge or just straight up dident care to. Hes not taking them serious at all and that should be ovious
dont sweat it your good
Like you said yourself, Koji only somewhat kept up with K2 Jigen cause he was expending even more chakra and was even closer to 0 by that point. Base Jigen was keeping up perfectly fine with Koji at first.
I don't see any mention of the previous Susanoo versions, and the Six Paths chakra thing is just a deduction from the fact that we've only seen Six Paths Susanoos flying. Doesn't really matter if it's cause of SPC or not, my point is just that wings are the next evolution of the Susanoo from the regular PS.
Yeah, including Koji. I mean he literally made Koji just to draw out Isshiki from Jigen, not even try to take him down.
He wasn't trying hard in the sense of struggling to keep up, but I don't see any reason for him to hold back his strength or speed when he had already used up a lot of chakra. And I'm not really sure where people keep getting that idea that he was intentionally keeping them (other than Boruto) alive? He specifically said that he wanted to kill them, and he was trying pretty damn hard to put Sasuke down.
That's why I said 10% to 10% k2 doesn't change much as he was getting slower as the fight went on. It's like this, 10% is relative to k2 10% <(10x) k2 full power . I'm arguing a 10x difference between full power k2 and and 10% k2, not the other way around.
It's called the perfect susanoo because there's not supposed to be anything after it. All of this is just talking about the perfect susanoo itself. The armor from the back of the PS can become wings, thats all its saying. I'm also pretty sure this statement was made before late war arc stuff because madara is the only listed user for it.
I agree, he just recognized nard and sauce As being stronger than anyone else around to fight jigen/ishiki. Amado didn't even know that Koji was going to live. He just assumed he would die once ishiki appeared so there's not much of a point to which he would include Koji when talking about fighting ishiki.
Ishiki is arrogant like every other oustuki we've seen. He's not going to go all out on a bunch of what he views as lesser beings every second of the fight when theres no need to at all. Notice how once baryon naruto comes out , he realizes that he's being conteded with + his life is being sucked away rapidly and knows that he can't afford to **** about anymore. THAT is when we actually see him put in any effort to fight. Ishiki was keeping them alive the whole time. Rember when He flew up to boruto, took him, and flew high into the air before anyone even realized what had happened? What was stopping him from killing them right then and there?. He did not need to nor cared enough at the time as he still had days left of life. Simple as that. He was literally just slowly trying to intimidate them so he could implant a karma on kawaki. You can quite literally literally look at almost any panel before baryon naruto comes and see no sign of struggle and the casualness on his face. Sasuke reacting to a non serious ishiki with sharingan precog once does not mean he was struggling whatsoever to bash their heads in especially considering that he blitzed them all terribly when he actually wanted to.
Comfortably is a strong word, Taking into consideration of how they were casually blitzed.
The link doesn't work for me for whatever reason, but I'm assuming you're referring to these instances? If so then I gotta disagree with the Clairvoyance. For one it's already accepted on they're profiles as an innate Resistance to genjutsu thanks to the Sharingan. Secondly, it doesn't even fit the definition of Clairvoyance on the wiki at all.
I guess Gaara having that level of durability is fine since he did take a hit from Fused Momo, but I'm kinda neutral on this. I'm not really all that into Boruto scaling atm.
This is obviously fine. Crazy that he didn't have it already.
Yeah, I disagree with this one tbh. Like, the Kurama Avatar and KCM Adult Naruto in general is a mixture of both Naruto and Kurama's chakra. We can't say for sure how much of their total chakra output is purely Kurama's.
This......is just electricity manipulation. You can add this bit as extra justification to expand on the ability though.
Yeah, this seems good to me.
Yeah, this works.
Yep, sure.
This works, too.
Seems okay, but should probably be "Possibly Flight with Perfect Susano'o" because he never actually demonstrated the ability.
Sure, makes sense.
Again, the speed stuff should probably be handled in dedicated speed thread, but yeah I imagine most of these characters should scale to each other in speed given the current scaling.
This is fine.
Just wanna comment on this bit first.
Won't comment on the scaling because I'm not the most knowledgeable on Boruto and I need to reread it, but I do find GokuSparkle's arguments somewhat compelling (Crazy, I know)
I will say I’m pretty sure the Obito and Kakashi limited clairvoyance is him referring to the times they have been able to see each others vision. Like when Obito could see glimpses of Kakashi stabbing Rin before he got there.
Well, I have no idea because the link in the OP isn't really working for me.
What godernet said. I'll respond to your other stuff in a bit
No worries I was just clarifying. I’d drop the scans but I’m on my phone.
Nah, it's straight up stated the he can fly with Susano'o, there's no room for a "likely", much less a "possibly".
Well, it's not like it says that "Madara can sprout wings to fly" directly. It says that it's possible to sprout wings for skilled enough users, but we've never seen Madara actually sprout wings like Sasuke and Kakashi, his PS just has massive arms on its back. So we're lacking both a direct statement and a direct showing, hence the "possibly".
But Madara is the only one listed as a user though, i don't think the ability to fly part would be mentioned if he didn't have it.
You shouldn't put too much stock into the Users section in the Databook. It doesn't always mention every single user of the ability. There's numerous examples I can pull from, but I'm just going to stick to the Perfect Susano'o because it literally doesn't mention Sasuke and Kakashi. Again, I'm not saying it's impossible for Madara to be able to do this, but it's just not that well-supported.
Yeah, the issue is that it hasn't showcased it and also looks visually distinct from the ones that have.
Tbf on him, I don't think he actually had any reason to fly with susanoo because, well, the people he fights with aren't zipping in the clouds
But...why would there not be a 10x difference between 10%< Base Jigen and FP Base Jigen?
Ehhh kinda sounds like a nominal fallacy. The official name is Complete Body Susanoo anyways. And the DB covers up to Ch 691 where both Sasuke and Kakashi's PS' had been shown. I just really can't see why it would talk about "in its next form," if it's not talking about something after EMS Madara and Sasuke's.
Yeah but he didn't even consider the possibility of Koji taking down Isshiki when he revived, unlike with Naruto and Sasuke, when he knew the chance was very low, but still a chance.
Taking them down quickly would be better for him considering how short his lifespan was. I'm not saying he was putting 100% of his energy into his attacks, just that he shouldn't have been intentionally suppressing himself. And we don't know if Sasuke lost track, considering he knew immediately where Isshiki went.
They were never blitzed by K1 Jigen outside of with the shrinking rods cause they were confused about its mechanics. And they didn't just react a few attacks, they were doing it the whole fight. They didn't just react either, they intercepted him on plenty of occasions which is combat speed, and Naruto even showed blatant relativity at one point.
It's pretty wild to say K1 jigen is just as fast as 6 paths nardo
He can be faster, I'm just saying it's not a huge difference.
How serious was Jigen? Not Isshiki, Jigen.
There's not much point in going through the trouble of revising several characters' ratings just to change them back if that goes through soon after. Could instead be the reverse where another CRT is made for upgrading characters to FTL+ as that's a big enough topic for its own thread. That way if it's accepted, it's just plain accepted, and if not, there wouldn't be that wasted time of revising and changing back.
There is a point to it, cuz rather than having to dive in confused half way through a thread, you can dedicate an actual space towards that conversation...
