You were fooled Naruto speed

[UchihaSlayer96]

It actually there is proof of that the cracks means he is inferior to 10% actually after the fight with NAruto and Sasuke we get a scene where amado states that Jigen was almost at 0% which means he is lower than 10%

That doesn't mean he was at 10% or lower in that moment. You gotta remember that he still expended some chakra after beating Naruto's clones, such as Sealing Naruto and using Space-Time Ninjutsu to return home. We know that at least Space-Time Jutsu expends a great deal of chakra. So you can't empirically prove that he was at sub-10% at that moment. Likewise, you can't prove that Naruto himself, who was beaten and battered by that point, was FTL either in that moment.

Even if you could prove all of these things, again, chakra amount does not scale to speed in a linear fashion.

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

Staff agreeing with it in the past doesn't mean much in the now.


No lol because Choodama Rasengan is a massive amp to his regular stats. Naruto's phyiscals ~ Rasengan < Odama Rasengan < Choodama Rasengan. Naruto killing Momo with a massively amped attack does not mean anything for his speed whatsoever.

Choodama rasengan is not an amp, where did that come from? each rasengan becomes bigger because more chakra is put on it. The only that actually gets amped is when more than 1 rasengan is used at a time because its stated that 2 rasengan's become more powerful than 2 individual rasengans

Not ignoring it, we just weren't talking about it, ik well about it cuz I'm the one who got that accepted in my og God Tier thread lol. However, I since disagree with it since 1) base Koji never actually fight Delta and 2) Koji just said he could take down Delta, he never specifies how. So we don't know what Koji had in his arsenal for Delta. It's not concrete to say his base stats are >= Delta's, when stats aren't the only thing important in a fight.

For someone who agreed on Kaguya caught of f guard how would Kashin koji make something to delta who was right in from of him aware of the fight and not off guard, there is also the fact that Kashin koji didnt had time to plant traps before delta shows up, so either he is fast enought to make the first move or he dies

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

That doesn't mean he was at 10% or lower in that moment. You gotta remember that he still expended some chakra after beating Naruto's clones, such as Sealing Naruto and using Space-Time Ninjutsu to return home. We know that at least Space-Time Jutsu expends a great deal of chakra. So you can't empirically prove that he was at sub-10% at that moment. Likewise, you can't prove that Naruto himself, who was beaten and battered by that point, was FTL either in that moment.

Even if you could prove all of these things, again, chakra amount does not scale to speed in a linear fashion.

I already gave more evidence for that like the cracks showing up after some time fighting kashin koji the same cracks appear again and he states that Jigen is on his limit again. While fighting Kashin koji he was lower than 10%, this clearly is used as a sign for his chakra level it was specifically showed twice

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Choodama rasengan is not an amp, where did that come from? each rasengan becomes bigger because more chakra is put on it. The only that actually gets amped is when more than 1 rasengan is used at a time because its stated that 2 rasengan's become more powerful than 2 individual rasengans

You debunked yourself, Naruto puts more chakra into Choodama Rasengan than Rasengan, Naruto's attacks with more of his chakra > Naruto's attacks with less of his chakra. Unless you think chakra amount doesn't amp things, in that case Jigen being at 10% chakra wouldn't change his stats at all anyway.

For someone who agreed on Kaguya caught of f guard how would Kashin koji make something to delta who was right in from of him aware of the fight and not off guard, there is also the fact that Kashin koji didnt had time to plant traps before delta shows up, so either he is fast enought to make the first move or he dies

Koji has hax. He has Sage Mode. He is a far more level headed and intelligent character than Delta. We don't know how he'd defeat Delta, that's my entire point.

 

[Stryker861]

Choodama rasengan is not an amp, where did that come from? each rasengan becomes bigger because more chakra is put on it. The

If it's not an amp why pour more chakra into it

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

Even if you could prove all of these things, again, chakra amount does not scale to speed in a linear fashion.

That was already talked about in the first thread the reason he only gets a "likely" is because we cant prove its linear but there is enough proof that less chakra=less speed

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

That was already talked about in the first thread the reason he only gets a "likely" is because we cant prove its linear but there is enough proof that less chakra=less speed

We don't hand out likely ratings for things we can't prove at all. We hand them out for things that have some backing, but aren't 100% conclusive. This has zero backing.

Should be used to list a statistic for a character with some basis, but inconclusive due to the justification being vague or non-definitive. The probability of the justification in question for being reliable should be favourable. This term should be used sparingly.

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

You debunked yourself, Naruto puts more chakra into Choodama Rasengan than Rasengan, Naruto's attacks with more of his chakra > Naruto's attacks with less of his chakra. Unless you think chakra amount doesn't amp things, in that case Jigen being at 10% chakra wouldn't change his stats at all anyway.

What? Why use more chakra? Because more chakra=more AP why else? Bigger ball more chakra= more AP, a rasengan probably just doesnt have enough AP to defeat Momoshiki so he uses a bigger one, increasing the voltage means more energy usage but more powerful same thing for everything in Naruto the more chakra used the stronger and the faster he gets.

Koji has hax. He has Sage Mode. He is a far more level headed and intelligent character than Delta. We don't know how he'd defeat Delta, that's my entire point.

Hax only work if they can hit Delta was the entire argument for Kaguya caughting Ishiki off guard now you dont agree with a much better example?

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

We don't hand out likely ratings for things we can't prove at all. We hand them out for things that have some backing, but aren't 100% conclusive. This has zero backing.

We have evidence that less chakra= less speed we just cant prove its linear which again this was discussed in the 1st thread

 

[Stryker861]

Choodama rasengan is not an amp, where did that come from? each rasengan becomes bigger because more chakra is put on it. The only that actually gets amped is when more than 1 rasengan is used at a time because its stated that 2 rasengan's become more powerful than 2 individual rasengans

What? Why use more chakra? Because more chakra=more AP why else? Bigger ball more chakra= more AP, a rasengan probably just doesnt have enough AP to defeat Momoshiki so he uses a bigger one, increasing the voltage means more energy usage but more powerful

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

We have evidence that less chakra= less speed we just cant prove its linear which again this was discussed in the 1st thread

Nobody said that less chakra =/= less speed. I'm saying that it doesn't scale linearly, meaning that the FTL+ rating doesn't have ANY backing or justification.
You'd be able to get a Likely rating for this if the notion had some evidence behind it, but said evidence was contradicted for example. In that case it'd be an equal interpretation situation. In this case, however, there are no equal interpretations because we only have the anti-feats for the notion and literally nothing else.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

What? Why use more chakra? Because more chakra=more AP why else? Bigger ball more chakra= more AP, a rasengan probably just doesnt have enough AP to defeat Momoshiki so he uses a bigger one, increasing the voltage means more energy usage but more powerful same thing for everything in Naruto the more chakra used the stronger and the faster he gets.

Exactly lmao, the Choodama Rasengan is amped beyond Naruto's normal physicals thanks for agreeing ig. Fused Momo >~ base Naruto < Nard's Choodama Rasengan. Choodama Rasengan doesn't scale to his base physicals. Even more so it's an AP feat not a speed feat, so idek why you're bringing it up.

Hax only work if they can hit Delta was the entire argument for Kaguya caughting Ishiki off guard now you dont agree with a much better example?

He's
Got
Sage
Mode

Sage Mode amps your stats, it could make Koji more comparable. Or Koji could just outsmart Delta without being an equal to her physically. We do not know how he would defeat Delta. So rather than come up with some head canon, I prefer to take a neutral stance and not use that statement for making any objective claim.

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

Exactly lmao, the Choodama Rasengan is amped beyond Naruto's normal physicals thanks for agreeing ig. Fused Momo >~ base Naruto < Nard's Choodama Rasengan. Choodama Rasengan doesn't scale to his base physicals. Even more so it's an AP feat not a speed feat, so idek why you're bringing it up.

Lol more chakra= more ap that applies for physical stats as much as ninjutsu stats Naruto's rasenga ncouldnt hit momoshiki because needed the invisibility so he gave that chakra to Boruto instead of using it to become faster and stronger.

He's
Got
Sage
Mode

Sage Mode amps your stats, it could make Koji more comparable. Or Koji could just outsmart Delta without being an equal to her physically. We do not know how he would defeat Delta. So rather than come up with some head canon, I prefer to take a neutral stance and not use that statement for making any objective claim.

Again for someone who agreed with an off guard scaling this is very hypocrite, Sage mode would likely made Kashin Koji faster than Delta so? Kashin koji used Sage mode agaisnt Jigen 10% so it doesnt matter if his base or sage mode scale to delta it would still scale to Jigen. They were right in front of each other delta was on battle stance so for Occam's Razor he would scale. Again outsmart only works if you can react to the opponent's attacks

 

[KingTempest]

Y’all might as well delete the verse

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

Y’all might as well delete the verse

Do it then

 

[Nierre]

Your argumentation is really poor, I'm struggling to follow what you're arguing rn..
Tbf I didn't read the downgrade thread so I might just be confused cuz I don't have the proper context.

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

Your argumentation is really poor, I'm struggling to follow what you're arguing rn..
Tbf I didn't read the downgrade thread so I might just be confused cuz I don't have the proper context.

The downgrade thread argued that the 10x multiplier is based on Naruto and Sasuke fighting Jigen 10% which is not true because the reason it scaled it was because Jigen at the end of the fight was at less than 10% cause of the cracks and still fought base Naruto.
The downgrade thread also claimed Ishiki full power was related to Kaguya because she caught him off guard. And lastly it argued about Ishiki being able to use 100% of his power when he reencarnated fully on Jigen.
This last one is ridiculous because no one ever claimed any different.

 

[Godernet]

I’ve very slowly over the course of these last two or three threads gone from very neutral on 10% scaling to just flat out disagreeing.

As I think most of us can agree, any justification that would put Base Koji on the level of SPSM Naruto and Delta is speculation at best. Koji is confident he can beat Delta but we don’t know how. And with that same logic he was created to beat Jigen yet still failed to do so even when Jigen was at his weakest. Confident scaling shouldn’t be used for conclusive or even likely scaling if there is not evidence to back up claims.

As for Base Fatigued Naruto vs Fatigued Jigen. Claiming Jigen is at 10% of his normal speed based on fatigue yet Naruto should still be capable of his normals speeds when fatigued is a disingenuous at best.

We also still have the issue of assuming that crack is meant to show up only when Jigen is at 10% which isn’t implied. Jigen stating he’s is reaching his limit is also not a conclusive statement since he very well could have mean’t Jigens body could no longer sustain using that level of power in combat(which is what’s implied by the crack appearing tbh, why would he be being damaged by being at 10% chakra rather than just because Jigens body could no longer sustain Isshikis vast power.)

Not to mention Jigen would have had to use Space Time Ninjutsu to go home which is a taxing jutsu regardless if who uses it from what we’ve seen. Jigen being at less than 10% by the time he reaches Amado could also very well be due to this as well.

To sum it up it takes too many assumptions and speculation to use Fatigued Base Naruto clones vs Fatigued Jigen as grounds for a 10x speed difference.

And Koji scaling is kinda just speculation at best as well(something I think most people already agree with)

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

Mhmm, this. There's absolutely no real reason to assume that a base Naruto that had been beaten to hell and back by Jigen should scale to the same level as a fresh-ish Naruto against Fused Momoshiki.

Agree with everything said besides this, base naruto was not fresh against fused momo lol

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Well I was gonna respond to Suigetsuhyugs but Net really said everything I would better than I could. But yeah Net shares my thoughts.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

also no you goobers, chochoodama rasengan is a massive amp

also chakra amps doesnt scale linearly with your stats

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

this isnt even a subjective thing you can objectively prove that chakra amps dont amp speed and AP relatively within this very fight

 

[Stryker861]

also no you goobers, chochoodama rasengan is a massive amp

Maybe naruto just likes big balls

 

[Testarossa002]

Whether KK scales fully to Delta doesn't particularly matter anymore

It's currently not accepted that 2x Chakra boost/nerf=2x Stat boost/nerf

That aside
KK in base scales to 10% jigen who scales nowhere notable

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Agree with everything said besides this, base naruto was not fresh against fused momo lol

I know, hence the "fresh-ish". I didn't feel like getting into the 50% chakra, and anime vs manga shenanigans, since it didn't really change anything as far as this debate's concerned.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

I know, hence the "fresh-ish". I didn't feel like getting into the 50% chakra, and anime vs manga shenanigans, since it didn't really change anything as far as this debate's concerned.

yeah but he did take a bijuu dama to the face which counts for something. but i agree it doesnt really matter lmao

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

I’ve very slowly over the course of these last two or three threads gone from very neutral on 10% scaling to just flat out disagreeing.

I really dont care about opinion.

As I think most of us can agree, any justification that would put Base Koji on the level of SPSM Naruto and Delta is speculation at best. Koji is confident he can beat Delta but we don’t know how. And with that same logic he was created to beat Jigen yet still failed to do so even when Jigen was at his weakest. Confident scaling shouldn’t be used for conclusive or even likely scaling if there is not evidence to back up claims.

Lol Shikamaru is on SPSM Naruto because they both scale to FTL for the same calc, they just downscale from that calc it doesnt mean they are equal.
We know that a lot of people agreed that Ishiki shouldnt be faster than kaguya because she caught him off guard but not ok with Kashin koji scale to Delta who was right in front of him and on a battle stance, poor argument my a$$. Je didnt failed he archieved his goal to kill Jigen he just couldnt kill Ishiki. Koji shouldnt be any slower than Delta they are all inner members.

As for Base Fatigued Naruto vs Fatigued Jigen. Claiming Jigen is at 10% of his normal speed based on fatigue yet Naruto should still be capable of his normals speeds when fatigued is a disingenuous at best.

Fatigue is used for chakra amount but for all we know Naruto only wasted Kurama's chakra during the entire fight against Jigen so his base self would still be full he was just hurt but Kurama's regeneration was still working.

We also still have the issue of assuming that crack is meant to show up only when Jigen is at 10% which isn’t implied. Jigen stating he’s is reaching his limit is also not a conclusive since he very well would have mean Jigens body could no longer sustain using that level of power in combat(which is what’s implied by the crack appearing tbh, why would he be being damaged by being at 10% chakra rather than just because Jigens body could no longer)

It is most likely because Jigen can no longer handle his power but because his reserves reach a minimum too so much that when he was about to be recharged he was at almost 0% and Jigen didnt used any spacial ninjutsu when he fought against Kashin koji, its very much implied the cracks means he is almost with no chakra.

Not to mention Jigen would have had to use Space Time Ninjutsu to go home which is a taxing jutsu regardless if who uses it from what we’ve seen. Jigen being at less than 10% by the time he reaches Amado could very well be due to this as well.

He used spacial nijutsu heck Sasuke used spacial ninjutsu after being pinned by Jigen and Sasuke should have way less chakra than Jigen overall

To sum it up it takes too many assumptions and speculation to use Fatigued Base Naruto clones vs Fatigued Jigen to use that as grounds for a 10x speed difference.

You should have argued on the original thread or even used those same arguments in the downgrade thread but no people just agreed with horrible arguments and expected everyone to accept which is ridiculous

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I really dont care about opinion.

CRTs are precisely made for people to give their opinions and defend them you goober stop being edgy. Didn’t Deagonx tell you to chill out with the edgy behavior?

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

this isnt even a subjective thing you can objectively prove that chakra amps dont amp speed and AP relatively within this very fight

then make a thread about that becaus right now the 10x amp is still up because no one even tried to debunk it.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

. Koji shouldnt be any slower than Delta they are all inner members.

Boro and and Oga were both inners and not speedsters. theres no reason to assume Koji is as fast as delta when he has no feats on that level, like at all.

 

[Deagonx]

I really dont care about opinion.

Lol Shikamaru is on SPSM Naruto because

I already warned you about being aggro like this.

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

CRTs are precisely made for people to give their opinions and defend them you goober stop being edgy. Didn’t Deagonx tell you to chill out with the edgy behavior?

I mean own opinion without arguments because the downgrade happened out of pure own reasons because most just agreed that that thread had horrible arguments, if you want to actually make a thread with good arguments sure downgrade it but that thread was garbage and shouldnt have never been accepted

 

[LordTracer]

Net, Arc and Slayer FRA

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

then make a thread about that becaus right now the 10x amp is still up because no one even tried to debunk it.

we can debunk it right here.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Bros, this whole argument is moot until someone conjures me up some proof that chakra amount amps speed linearly, all while also providing counters for the plethora of anti-feats that exist. Until that happens, this topic's joever as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Deagonx]

Okay. Given that this is now a sufficiently rejected thread which itself probably shouldn't have been allowed since it was just attempting to revisit an issue that was decided literally today, I assume we can close this now?

we can debunk it right here.

Agreed, if we currently have a profile that erroneously scales someone linearly from the 10% thing, we should fix that now.

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

we can debunk it right here.

Oh sure you couldnt do it the proper thread that was made to literally downgrade but in this thread made to invalidate the downgrade thread you can

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Oh sure you couldnt do it the proper thread that was made to literally downgrade but in this thread made to invalidate the downgrade thread you can

Yes
Not all of us are free 24/7 to deal with every thread. We took notice of it on this thread, and we dealt with it here. It's not deep.

 

[Deagonx]

Yes, he can.

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

You should undo what the other thread downgraded and actually make a thread for that one with actually good arguments