At Least Universal DMC and more continued

[Dark649]

Dante absorbing the sparda and rebellion gave him more power then urizen eating the fruit

But not that much since Dante consumed a vast amount of stamina against Urizen, as Vergil told him to recover.

 

[PrettyFearMachine]

@Dante

Dude, we're currently arguing for Mundus being 3-A, I don't know why you bring up the tree and scaling Mundus to it.

 

[Follow_Doctor_Freeman]

Again, not to be a spotlight hog or anything, but I think that, if they're accurate of our positions, we should voice alignment with whichever one of those 3 options so we all know what we're arguing for/against. I think the people with the first two options have talked a good bit; let's hear what those with #3 have to say for their case. I'm not sure where they're coming from exactly, and I would like to make sure I'm not mischaracterizing anyone.

 

[Lightning_XXI]

@Dante

Dude, we're currently arguing for Mundus being 3-A, I don't know why you bring up the tree and scaling Mundus to it.

I wasn't considering the 3-A part, you said that we shouldn't scale Mundus to it so I was defending the ideia that we should, but not taking into the equation the 3-A part

If they get the 3-A upgarde, then the 6-C feat is irrelevant, indeed

DMC2 Dante defeated Argosax and Void Mundus, both are comparable (Argosax) or stronger than Mundus (Void Mundus), so DMC2 Dante should scale

 

[Dienomite22]

@Follow Doctor Freeman

I think the 1st option.

Only Argosax,Mundus,Sparda,Dante, Nero and Urizen/Vergil would scale.People who gained power from these tiers get "x tier possibly higher".

 

[Lightning_XXI]

I am with the first option

- We have statements that even demons rivaling Mundus can't defeat Dante by DMC2

- Arius never drained Argosax's powers, he was just possessed by him

- The ritual was to open a portal to release Argosax and...even incomplete it was opened and Dante just fights him inside de Demon World, nothing points to something nerfing him

- Dante already defeated Void Mundus, who's stronger than normal Mundus, before the fight against Argosax

 

[Follow_Doctor_Freeman]

For the record, I think most supporters of an upgrade want to say that Dante, even the base form, has gone against enough guys with 3-A feats (Mundus, Argosax, Void Mundus) to say that scaling can apply across the board. And that even iffy, featless guys like the Savior & Arkham & Abigail, who each drew upon God-tier power to an unknown extent, detract nothing from this stance but rather collaborate it indirectly. I do not know if DMC5 plot supports this stance, but there being some fruit that lots of guys can get powerups from seems to help, imo.

What exactly are the people against any upgrade at all (option #3) using in their case, besides ad hoc definitions of consistency and sufficiency? Not saying they have no case; just that I'm not aware of what it is. Again, maybe DMC5 is on their side; I dunno.

 

[PrettyFearMachine]

I think I will side with the Option 1 group, now that I think about it.

Btw, isn't there a some sort of statement which says that the time flows differently in the Underworld, or am I just misremembering things?

 

[Lightning_XXI]

Why would DMC5 not support this ?

 

[Follow_Doctor_Freeman]

@Reb -- I think the Samsara item description and some other things suggest the Underworld/Demon World/whatever has its own separate space-time, but let's make sure we all agree on some kinda universal status across the board beofre getting into that. Let the opposition voice themselves so we do not strawman them or get ahead of ourselves.

@Killah -- I dunno if DMC5 collaborates option #1 or not, that's what I'm asking the opposition (and us too). I haven't played it yet. But you all can give me money so I can afford to! No? Please?

 

[Dienomite22]

I think I will side with the Option 1 group, now that I think about it.
Btw, isn't there a some sort of statement which says that the time flows differently in the Underworld, or am I just misremembering things?

It's possible, time flows differently on Mallet Island according to the library and the towns in DMC2 were spunned into "infinite cycles" due to time manipulation and causing time paradoxs which explained how Phantom came back.(guidebook states this).And DMC3 has space time continuum item.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

I agree with Option 1. I have not seen sufficient evidence that the feats are outliers or misunderstood.

 

[Maxnumb231]

Scaling anyone to the Tree is absolutely atrocious. DMC5's lore outright tells us that what allowed Mundus to dethrone the former Demon King and rise to power as the strongest was eating the fruit.

It qas never stated he used thw fruit to overthrow the prwvious king. Thats your assumption.

 

[Maxnumb231]

@Max

Balrog wasn't stated to be Argosax's partner, he was his second in command/right-hand man. That's like calling Snape comparable to Voldemort, or Ginyu comparable to Freeza.

Actually no. Balrog SAYS "I feel bored without my partner Argosax"

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

I am more in agreement with Option 2 myself tbh

 

[Schnee_One]

I agree with option 2 personally.

 

[Dienomite22]

@Follow Doctor Freeman

What's the scaling in option 2?

 

[Lightning_XXI]

I already explained why we should go for option 1, Dragon and Schnee, in this post:

- We have statements that even demons rivaling Mundus can't defeat Dante by DMC2

- Arius never drained Argosax's powers, he was just possessed by him

- The ritual was to open a portal to release Argosax and...even incomplete it was opened and Dante just fights him inside de Demon World, nothing points to something nerfing him

- Dante already defeated Void Mundus, who's stronger than normal Mundus, before the fight against Argosax

Can you explain why you still believe with Option 2 ?

 

[Follow_Doctor_Freeman]

@Option #2 guys -- I get where you're coming from, but let's test the veracity of #1 before going to a compromise.

Okay, I may or may not have to go in a bit since my mother's really starting to hurt badly -- she's sound of mind and in no danger but has a neurological condition that sends intense false pain signals all over her body for hours on end on a regular basis -- yet I shall try to keep up and make sure we are all aware of the implications of our own assertations and of the nature of our opponent's cases. Here are two instructions:

1.) Upgrade supprters, do not strawman dissenters before they get a chance to articulate themselves.

2.) Dissenters (#2 or #3), make a case that provides an explanation of the evidence that does not employ ad hoc/personal/intuitional definitions of consistency. Get more evidence if you have to; otherwise find a better way to arrange the puzzle pieces we already have. An alternative explanation should be more plausible, but universally so.


Also, friendly reminder of the five laws of explanation; the best explanation posseses the following:

- Explanatory scope: the ability to fully answer all questions we're asking in the first place. That question is "Here are some feats, so what do all these feats imply story-wise?"
- Explanatory power: having evidence to back it up. So far us supporters have a monopoly; if no one has something new to bring to the table in terms of evidence, they can but find a better fashion to arrange the puzzle pieces.
- Be the least dependent on ad hoc definitions. Given how much evidence is in the supporter's favor at this point, you need to do more than to raise objections based only on arbitrary definitions of consistency and such; otherwise we get into utter subjectivity and appeal to authority fallacy.
- Be the most plausible: self-explanatory. So far Option #1 seems pretty plausible to me (subjectively). This is probably a tough route to go down; I suppose one could say "These guys arent't doing big feats in combat," but there are countless counter-examples (logical and based on precedent) to this objection, and it isn't even evidence in itself.
- Provision of illumination in other areas: does it make other aspects of the lore make more sense? In this kind of debate, this point falls under the former one, I think. Or vice versa? Either way, this and the plausibility factor work together.

 

[Schnee_One]

@FDF

We'll take care of everything from here but take care of your mom ASAP

 

[Dienomite22]

@Follow Doctor Freeman

Yea, option 1 is the most plausible and fits the story and scaling perfectly while option 2 goes against everything shown in DMC5 and lore.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Option 2 is the only one that makes sense but that's assuming 3-A is being accepted to begin with

 

[PrettyFearMachine]

To add more on the Underworld having its own space-time: there's this sca , which mentions putting the town in an infinite time loop, due to the world merging taking place.

That, along with what Dienomite brought up, IMO is enough proof for Argosax's merging feat to be 2-C. But that's for another day, I guess.

 

[BlackDarkness679]

Option 1 should be chosen, a feat performed by a god tier would be above anyone else feat which isnt a god tier

Street fighter for example has just a single feat for high 7-A done by a god tier,nothing else comes close to that by anyone and those comparable try to scale to it

Or one punch man with god tiers being said to have the power to destroy earth,none comes close to that and those comparable scale to it

Im sure there are other verses on this wiki from a single feat only,put at certain tiers despite the rest of the feats in the respective verse not coming anywhere close to god tiers one

So why would dmc be any different?god tiers in the verse stomp all the others except other god tiers and so far Mundus and Argosax which are both god tiers and demon kings have 3-A feats,there should be an issue at this point

 

[Lightning_XXI]

Option 2 is the only one that makes sense

But, why ?

I don't see PIS for DMC2 Dante defeating Argosax, he defeated Void Mundus in the novel who's stated to be stronger than the original, and the ritual was only to open a portal to free Argosax, which worked, there's no proof to say that Argosax was weakened in that fight, even Arius is stated to be possessed by Argosax, he didn't "drained" power from him

We even got a statement from the game that demon rivaling Mundus can't defeat DMC2 Dante

 

[Sparda_20000000]

Plus the only character who Dante couldn't beat pre sin was urizen who completely laughed off the sparda and didn't even think of the sword as a threat

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I guess it makes more sense to admit that 3-A is an outlir given that

 

[Dienomite22]

@Matthew Schroeder

Nope, not if they're all only God Tiers

 

[WeeklyBattles]

God tiers can absolutely have outliers

 

[Dienomite22]

Don't remember saying they can't.

 

[PrettyFearMachine]

God tiers can absolutely have outliers

Which is not the case here, as said god-tiers have no other feats/anti-feats.

 

[Sparda_20000000]

Here is the order that I think the god tier goes in

1: end of dmc 5 Dante,Vergil and Nero

2:urizen pre and post fruit

3 dmc 2,4 and beginning of 5 Dante

4: sparda and sparda devil trigger Dante

5 void mundus
6: mundus,argosax and true abigail

 

[BlackDarkness679]

I dont see what outliers can god tiers of a verse have besides low end showings of getting harmed or struggling with others below them

 

[Dienomite22]

@Sparda 20000000

Sparda should be in 1 since the DMC5 retcon is largely accepted

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

We are literally at 300 posts and most of this thread has been arguing about the mess that 3-A or 4-A makes to the scaling specially considering it would scale to people who absolutely have no feats anywhere near that scale.

In fact, there is one possible 3-A feat and all the others are sketchy (And whether or not Argosax' is legit, it doesn't make the rest suddenly more valid).

 

[Dienomite22]

We are literally at 300 posts and most of this thread has been arguing about the mess that 3-A or 4-A makes to the scaling specially considering it would scale to people who absolutely have no feats anywhere near that scale.

Who?

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Yeah, I'm seeing zero argument against 3-A God-tiers. The claims are being proven to correctly scale to at least 4-C and the 'argument' of the feats being outliers have, thus far, been weak.

At this point, all I am seeing are a small minority of people claiming it's an outlier with little to no counter-argument or evidence.

 

[PrettyFearMachine]

@Matt

To be honest, the actual debate only started here, because most of the previous thread was people waiting for your opinion and going back & forth with the portals meme w/o any progress in the end.

 

[Sparda_20000000]

@Sparda 20000000

Sparda should be in 1 since the DMC5 retcon is largely accepted

Urizen should be stronger than sparda with how he dismisses the devil sword sparda

 

[Dienomite22]

@Sparda 20000000

Talking about prime 4/4 Sparda.