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Anti-monitor for high 2-A!

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@Hykuu

Events in Morrison Source N52 are still just as much canon Cosmologically to Rebirth Snyderist Cosmology. They use the same Cosmology continua. Still the same Monitor, still the same Source Wall, still the same Bleed and still the same Sphere of the Gods and still using the same map.

You shouldn't compare it to how we have multiple different Supermans from different in-Universe in-Universe reboots.

It's not like some character in DC used reality warping to make DC's Multiverse smaller in size from High-1B to 6-D between the events of N52 and Rebirth because reasons. That never happened. It's still using the same Morrisonid Cosmology throughout, and still using Morrison's terms with respect.

Again, still comparing apples and oranges. That is a really bad idea. Your only arguments are just mental gymnastics and isn't really honest to being accurate to consistent cosmology continuum.

Morrison + Snyder Sources >>>>>>>>>>>> Everything else on the Morrisonid Cosmology model.
 
Antvasima said:
Well, in "Justice League: Crisis Times Five", Grant Morrison originally defined the 5th-dimensional beings in a similar manner to what we do, as ones that encompass time and hypertime/parallell timelines. Then he had Bat-Mite mention that the 5th dimension is imagination during his Batman run.
The two are not mutually exclusive, as the point of hypertime is that all DC Comics stories are real somewhere in some timeline, and that they constantly intermingle, merge with, and separate from each other.
Click to expand...
I see. I suppose that technically still applies when you see how Mxyzptlk defines the Fifth Dimensions relationship to the Multiverse as a whole: it's everywhere, the blood of the multiverse, the energy that flows between all its realms, which would include the ephemeral Hypertime and parallel timelines, and implied in recent issues to include the Monitor Sphere and Sphere of the Gods.

I think the trick in understanding the new cosmological model is with Mandrakk's trip down to the Dark Multiverse. In "Dark Nights: Metal", the map Hawkgirl flipped over to illustrate the relationship between the Dark Multiverse and the known Multiverse. Said map included the Overvoid outside the Source Wall. According to "Unexpected", when Mandrakk fell into the Overvoid, he fell all the way down into the Dark Multiverse, the place where new Universes are born from the World Forge. He fell into the other side of the map.

To draw upon Grant Morrison's analogy, if the Overvoid is the "canvas on which the artist draws", then the Dark Multiverse is a source of the material used to draw upon it, with the Creator of the Multiverse (Perpetua for the original weaponized iteration, the Presence when it was remade properly) being the writer/artist who uses that material to draw upon the canvas.

The Sixth Dimension as the control room, in this analogy, becomes the drawing board, the place where everything is drawn up. In this case, the Sixth Dimension is potentially above the Overvoid. And there is also an Omniverse above that in which the Multiverse resides, but that's another matter.

To summarize:

1. The Multiverse map encompasses all that is material to the DC Multiverse.

2. The Fifth Dimension - imagination - is the immaterial lifeblood of the Multiverse that flows through all its dimensions.

3. The boundaries to the Multiverse and Fifth Dimension are the Overvoid and Dark Multiverse - one being the canvas on which reality exists, the other being a source of the foundational matter used to draw on the canvas.

4. The Sixth Dimension lies above the Overvoid, being the realm from which the Multiverse was originally designed then "drawn" onto the Overvoid.

As it pertains to the Monitors and Forger, it seems their full strength comes to light in the Sixth Dimension, as seen in the recent issue.
 
At least Low 1-C is fine for generic Monitors and both the Anti and the original Monitor.

But trying to get all of DC downgraded to Low 1-C based on a single storyline from 2019 and dismissing every single prior statement as an "Outlier Cosmology" (As if that exists) is absurd and seems incredibly vendetty to me.
 
Did I say Outlier Cosmologies? I mean't, Outlier and Retconned, Irrelevant and never-mentioned again, and constantly contradicted Cosmologies.

Show me a scan saying that the Sphere of the Gods is infinitely layered? Doesn't exist. Show me a scan saying that Limbo is infinitely layered? No, doesn't exist, show me a scan that shows the Monitor Sphere as infinitely layered? No. Doesn't exist.

All these three things are never portrayed as multi-layered in any story, and are portrayed as singular planes on panel. Instead, you believe one weird questionable story never mentioned again as more credible that was not even proven on panel?

At least Umineko and Dark Tower and many at least High-1B At least infinitely-layered fictions actually shove it in our faces consistently. DC foesn't.
 
i have some problems with umineko world i will make a thread about it later its tier 0 character has a magical device around neck which was onced cracked and losing that device means almost death to her and she is still unable to match creator and was bound to his law of cycle of death and life and somehow she is still tier0 lol but i wont derail it further this thread isnt about Umineko and Dark Tower.

Dc has some verticality to it like umineko like:- universes < normal multiverse <sohere of gods<limbo<monitor realm<source wall<then overmonitor and to overmonitor entire creation is less than a dirt.
 
@Matthew

Should we change the Thought Robot and Mandrakk to 1-B instead, based on the innumerable dimensions and 196000-dimensional snowflake structure?

Also, would you be willing to give the Anti-Monitor and The Monitor an extra Low 1-C statistics key, and change the tier of Barbatos as well?
 
imo if you guys downscale mandrakk and cas you have to downscale primal monitor too because mandrakk was a threat to primal monitor cas was a safe gaurd made to protect primal monitor it was made with the monitor technology its purpose was to protect primal monitor aka overmonitor aka mind of monitor. Primal monitor as per discription in comic is a place where fiction take place,
 
@PRIDEXEGO

Your posts tend to be incoherent/unstructured to the point that they are derailing the discussions that you take part in, especially given your tendency to spam posts. Perhaps it would be better if you avoid content revision threads, as you make it harder to get anything done.
 
what? spam?incoherent? unstructured i can agree but if you dont like my threads ignore them what so hard about it ? if you considered this reply as derail then your coment too is derail. and i clearly mentioned its in my opinion.
 
My apologies for being blunt, but it is hard to have a more serious conversation when you keep interrupting the threads with poorly informed incoherent posts. I would much prefer if you focus on something else instead.
 
dont worry from now on i wont reply to your comment any longer or take part in any discussion you are in and my coment wont be below your comment from now on but please try to avoid my threads if you still not satisfied block my account what else i can say,
 
You haven't broken any rules. I am not going to block you. I just recurrently find your posts too poorly structured to make sense of. That is all. My apologies if I have brought offense. I tend to be blunt by nature.
 
Antvasima said:
@Matthew
Should we change the Thought Robot and Mandrakk to 1-B instead, based on the innumerable dimensions and 196000-dimensional snowflake structure?

Also, would you be willing to give the Anti-Monitor and The Monitor an extra Low 1-C statistics key, and change the tier of Barbatos as well?
Click to expand...
Convergence was stated to have created a "Multi-Multiverse", and the snowflake structure was stated to be embedded within the Bleed (not counting the fact Wildstorm was merged into Prime Earth Post-Flashpoint). So the question could be where its position in the Bleed puts it in relation to the place in the Multiverse Map "above" the Bleed i.e. the Sphere of the Gods, Monitor Sphere, the Fifth Dimension, and now the Sixth Dimension.

As I mentioned earlier, it's messy business trying to apply a straight-forward use of dimensional tiering to a cosmology like DC.
 
Yes, the cosmology seems rather incoherent. The 1-A characters should stay where they are in any case.
 
Well, it is hard to make sense of between writers at least.
 
I propose (IF we all agree on including it as a part of the profile... Which I have obvious doubts about) making a key for the enraged form... And saying something like " At least High 2-A , likely Far Higher " and make a note that while the Writer is being erased, we don't know what tier it was during this comic.
 
Perhaps the Writer was never 1-A to begin with. And we were all dozed on Head-Canon. A far more simpler solution with less mental gymnastics involved.
 
@Nether

You need to stop trying to destroy the scaling by pointing out inconsistencies, and help to figure out how to find workable solutions in a constructive manner. Your approach is not helping us so far.
 
This is just a pure vendetta against DC at this point. "Everything that doesn't conform to my low end view is an outlier and biased and etc."
 
I generally believe Nether just have a different stance on how DC operates, he doesn't have some hate boner against the verse, he's just showing his conclusions basing off the comics he's read, which deserves some props as 90% of the comic debaters in general barely read the comics they use. Cut the man some slack, instead of calling him out on "destroying the scaling" try converesing with him normally about it.
 
The point is that we already know that DC is inconsistent, but Matthew is trying to find constructive solutions, whereas Nether is generally just being rude and mocking in an unconstructive manner.
 
yeah and for how long Matt has been trying to find these solutions? A few years now? Look, I'm going to be honest, comics are just getting more and more inconsistent (specifically dc, marvel is MUCH more consistent with cosmology) And if we are going to find a solution we need to do it fast, for the solution, I generally have no idea, Is sandman (the user) ever going to return? Or should we make a highlight thread regarding this?
 
A big problem is that DC for a while now has taken the stance of "everything ever is canon to the wider Multiverse." It started way back when Hypertime was first used in the 90s and it's only gotten more complicated since then, with Convergence, Morrison's idea of an infinite number of multiverses in the Bleed, etc.

While I believe the scaling currently in place is fine, it would be helpful to have a large blog of DC's cosmological structure with scans and links to the interviews Morrison has done. That would take a massive amount of time to put together though.
 
tmw I was working on that back in 2017 with my friends but we abandoned that project

time really bites, ouch. Anyway I can probably dig up scans from old discord dms regarding this, I'm definitely looking for someone to collab with though.
 
Antvasima said:
The point is that we already know that DC is inconsistent, but Matthew is trying to find constructive solutions, whereas Nether is generally just being rude and mocking in an unconstructive manner.
Click to expand...
If you wish I can try to make a Cosmology Blog for DC similar to my Elder Scrolls Blog. Should be much simpler. Would include scans and everything.
 
That would probably be a good idea. You can ask the community for help to find relevant scans, and state from the beginning that no argumentative mocking or drama is allowed.
 
If you were able to downgrade TOAA to a 1-A key based on one storyline by Starlin, then, I see no problem with doing something similar with the Writer.

I only aim to address all the points of information for reference of discussion. Just saying it's inconsistent, isn't an excuse to ignore it because that was already obvious. Only so that others will have something to think about.
 
@Hykuu

That writer was inside the comic panel and taking place in Earth Q. While the writer in JL 21 is outside the panels and drawing upon the white canvas itself. So it's more likely this is the same GM's Writer.
 
its absurd that u guys are only using the new 52 creation rather than the entire omniverse we have including hypertime dc would be much higher in tiering if u guys expanded much more on cosmology
 
So how big is the Dreaming?

Its infinite

There is a building in the Dreaming, Its called the Dream Exchange and it is where people and the inhabitants of the Dreaming trade dreams.

https://readcomics.io/images/manga/the-dreaming/2/9.jpg

See those papers? Each of those papers is a single reality based on dreams like world peace, etc

https://readcomics.io/images/manga/the-dreaming/2/11.jpg

https://readcomics.io/images/manga/the-dreaming/2/12.jpg

This is just inside a single building in the Dreaming and the Dreaming is infinite.This just proves that every dream is a reality in the Dreaming.Destiny said that Dream is his opposite which is kinda right cause Destiny's book contains everything that will ever exist while Dream has dominion over unreality(Dreams, nightmares etc)

The Dreaming affects both the dreaming and waking reality.Changing stories where everything comes from, like the story of garden of Eden affects everything, not just the Dreaming
 
The Branefold Interior is a Dimension of Times between Times and Space between Spaces, it is the medium between the Timeline Universes of DC's Physical Multiverse.

====It is the physical aspect/manifestation of Hypertime itself (meaning it is the Physical Part of Hypertime) and home of the Fuginauts who are Multiversal Guardians bent on keeping realities and potential realities from interfering from another to maintain reality's integrity. https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11134/111343371/6812321-2572698061-RCO00.jpg==== Hypertime's Location within DC's Current Cosmology is unclear. It is stated by Grant Morrison to be a Story Telling Device that ensures all DC Works by different authors are connected by a Story Telling Multiverse web of time streams.

Here, Flash claims that he's seen Hypertime by running among its borders, and that Hypertime was outside the Multiverse. This implies that Hypertime sits right in between the God Sphere and the Speed Force Wall which encircles the Orrery Bleed Space.

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11134/111343371/6558746-5572856469-Justi.jpg
 
so it does seem knightmare and dream do seem to be infinite realms aswell as them containing realms within those realms, the bleed which is also deemed as 5th dimensional is also shown to have multiverses as the bleed was noted to rotate between the 5th dimension. it is also the barrier between multiverses https://imgur.com/6IVsc9M
 
so it sounds like to me you guys should just massivly upgrade the sphere of the gods cause 5D aint cutting it.
 
if we take this new jLwriter work it will massively rectoned all other writer work and we shouldnt include vertigo characters in it as its some character were implied above all time and space.I think we should leave things as it is for now and wait for few more issues to clarrify it as it could also be that mr mxy was lying about 6thdimension as he just wanted to trap superman.
 
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