SCW and New 52 Anti-Monitor

[AerrowStorm1]

I think Galaxy as the low end works best since it's explictly stated there he's weakened and not fully reformed under his armor. This was stated mere pages (6 pages) before they dropped Warworld in him, and as such should be his weakest.

 

[Elizio33]

Bump

 

[Elizio33]

Just to recap. This is a quick recap of the debate i had with Emirp sumitpo. I wouldn't add all the arguments but the most important and notable ones are here.

Me: This should be a case for another thread, I don't really want to start another Anti-Monitor crt tbh, but I think we should get rid of key: "Anti-Matter Universe Absorbed." First, he didn't literally absorb the Anti-Matter Universe, but
absorbed its energies. Anti-Monitor being able to threaten the existence of infinite universes at the dawn of time is because he had absorbed the energies he needed from the heroes and was at the beginning of the multiverse and from there, the future can be changed. He's not 2-A, he needed a boost manipulate time history from the dawn of time, where history can be changed.

Emirp sumitpo: I don't see how this debunks anything. His entire universe is pretty much all Anti-Matter. Doesn't matter because he absorbed everything from something the size of a 2-A structure. He's still 2-A nonetheless.

Me: Still not sure if absorbing energies from an infinite multiverse-sized universe is enough to grant the 2-A tier even though the universe in question is composed of anti-matter on which the Anti-Monitor feeds on. To me it sounds like a High 3-A feat since all the anti-matter of the Antimatter Universe was involved, but he'd just absorbed the anti-matter energies of his universe, not the universe's space-time. Anyway, if people don't agree with my point of view, I'm okay with it.

Emirp sumitpo:. Except it's a universe literally made of Anti-Matter energy. Absorbing all Anti-Matter energy from it would obviously equate to absorbing the entire thing itself as the entire thing is made from that energy.

*******************************

Which arguments do you most agree with? Option 1 (me) or Option 2 (Emirp sumitpo)

Which options do you agree with?

Option 1: Remove the 2-A key for Anti-Monitor.

Option 2: Keep the 2-A key for Anti-Monitor.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

The Anti-Monitor absorbed the anti-matter energies of his universe, he didn't absorbed his universe's space-time structure.

The panel states "the total energy of his universe" and considering the the anti-matter universe replaces whatever there is after destroying the positive matter universe, the anti-matter universe would still be 2-A in range.

The main point of my argument is that it's not like after absorbing the total anti-matter energies from his universe, the Anti-Monitor could destroy the infinite universes of positive matter on his own because he had to go to a place at the dawn of creation where only there the future can be changed.

Tbf, there can be different levels of 2-A, it isn't a fully set tier. It's likely a case of more likely out of convenience considering there's still be people trying to stop him if he were to attack the positive matter universes again. And him losing his energy wouldn't really matter all that much as absorbing the heroes' energy returned him to 2-A again.

I think it's better to just merge the keys and change it to this, as the 2-A key would fall under his "higher with Energy Absorption", as Anti-Monitor's absorption abilities can reach up to 2-A.

Varies. 2-C normally, up to 2-A with Energy Absorption, 2-A Environmental Destruction with the Anti-Matter Wave

 

[Antvasima]

So which staff members think what here so far?

 

[Elizio33]

So which staff members think what here so far?

The same I think.

 

[Elizio33]

The Antimatter Universe stretches to thirty-two zillion light-years with fifty-three million worlds. Although a zillion is not a real number, it is rather an informal way of describing a very large, indefinite number, as you all probably already know. This seems a higher degree of 3-A or Low 2-C to me.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

The Antimatter Universe stretches to thirty-two zillion light-years with fifty-three million worlds. Although a zillion is not a real number, it is rather an informal way of describing a very large, indefinite number, as you all probably already know. This seems a higher degree of 3-A or Low 2-C to me.

Scan and source?

 

[Elizio33]

Scan and source?

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

I don't see how any of that contradicts my point when it explicitly says "more than" and considering zillion isn't even a real number, this can be taken as just figure of speech.

 

[Antvasima]

It definitely seems to be intended to be a finite number of measurement though.

 

[Elizio33]

I don't see how any of that contradicts my point when it explicitly says "more than" and considering zillion isn't even a real number, this can be taken as just figure of speech.

The "more than" doesn't really matter here. Even though a zillion is not a real number, the fact that the story says that the Antimatter Universe stretches more than thirty-two zillion light-years strongly implies that the Antimatter Universe is finite in size despite being far larger than a normal universe. It might be a figure of speech indeed, but I think it's just a way of describing something immensely large but still finite.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

The "more than" doesn't really matter here. Even though a zillion is not a real number, the fact that the story says that the Antimatter Universe stretches more than thirty-two zillion light-years strongly implies that the Antimatter Universe is finite in size despite being far larger than a normal universe. It might be a figure of speech indeed, but I think it's just a way of describing something immensely large but still finite.

More than certainly does matter, if it didn't, then it wouldn't have been put there. Not long that, but the Anti-Matter universe being finite would literally contradict the entire point of the story and the Anti-Monitor's motivations.

Neither really contradicts the other, as Infinite is still the same as "More than a zillion". And using a simple one off statement to write off the literal point of the villain's motivation is just bad. This just seems rather nitpicky.

 

[Antvasima]

The "more than" doesn't really matter here. Even though a zillion is not a real number, the fact that the story says that the Antimatter Universe stretches more than thirty-two zillion light-years strongly implies that the Antimatter Universe is finite in size despite being far larger than a normal universe. It might be a figure of speech indeed, but I think it's just a way of describing something immensely large but still finite.

I agree with that.

 

[Firestorm808]

To clarify, do we only have statements of the AM Universe being "zillions" big, never mentioned as "infinite" or the like?

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

To clarify, do we only have statements of the AM Universe being "zillions" big, never mentioned as "infinite" or the like?

Well, statements about the Anti-Matter universe expanding and replacing the destroyed positive matter universes in here and here. Destroying the positive matter universes leaves a void that the Anti-Matter unievrse automatically fills in. That is the Anti-Monitor's entire motivation. And by this point, every other universe other than 5, have been destroyed.

 

[KLOL506]

Okay so I've been reading a bit about it, but uh...

How is the "zillion" thing remotely indicative of it not being infinite? Nobody here said that this was a hard cap, like how "This is the absolute furthest bounds of the universe". If it had something like that, you'd have a point. Is there anything like this at all? If not, I don't see the argument for non-infinite-sized universes holding up at all.

 

[Firestorm808]

Well, statements about the Anti-Matter universe expanding and replacing the destroyed positive matter universes in here and here. Destroying the positive matter universes leaves a void that the Anti-Matter unievrse automatically fills in. That is the Anti-Monitor's entire motivation. And by this point, every other universe other than 5, have been destroyed.

This seems demonstrable that it eventually grew to a degree of infinity.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes, that seems reasonable.

 

[Elizio33]

Okay so, should the Anti-Monitor be: Varies. 2-C normally up to 2-A with Energy Absorption. 2-A with Environmental Destruction with the Antimatter Wave

 

[Firestorm808]

Edit: 3-B 3-C during SCW too, right?

 

[Elizio33]

Using this logic, shouldn't The Monitor be 2-A at full power since he contains the energies of infinite universes? Personally, I don't agree with that, but if there's a consensus, that's fine with me.

 

[Elizio33]

3-B during SCW too, right?

Why 3-B ?

 

[Firestorm808]

Sorry, I mean 3-C, regarding the Galaxy level explosion used on him.

 

[Elizio33]

Sorry, I mean 3-C, regarding the Galaxy level explosion used on him.

Maybe? What about; "Varies from 3-C to 2-C normally, up to 2-A with Energy Absorption. 2-A with Environmental Destruction with the Anti-Matter Wave"

 

[Firestorm808]

Maybe? What about; "Varies from 3-C to 2-C normally, up to 2-A with Energy Absorption. 2-A with Environmental Destruction with the Anti-Matter Wave"

That seems okay.

 

[Elizio33]

Since we had seen the Anti-Monitor struggled against the combined might of regular heroes in the past, should he be Varies from 4-A to 2-C normally, up to 2-A with Energy Absorption. 2-A with Environmental Destruction with the Anti-Matter Wave

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

Using this logic, shouldn't The Monitor be 2-A at full power since he contains the energies of infinite universes? Personally, I don't agree with that, but if there's a consensus, that's fine with me.

No, they need to absorb everything in order to become 2-A. Monitor doesn't scale to 2-A.

 

[Elizio33]

So do you agree to:

1. Update the Anti-Monitor's tier to Varies from 3-C to 2-C normally, up to 2-A with Energy Absorption. 2-A with Environmental Destruction with the Anti-Matter Wave

2. Remove the dawn of time key since his dawn of time feat is Mobius tempering with time at the beginning of the multiverse, where only from there history can be changed. His 2-A feat is based on the Anti-Monitor absorbing the total energy of the Antimatter Universe

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

Remove the dawn of time key since his dawn of time feat is Mobius tempering with time at the beginning of the multiverse, where only from there history can be changed.

That's technically a 2-A feat, however it was only done after he absorbed the heroes' energies, so it would fall under his "up to 2-A with Absorption" section.

It just needs to be reworded. Everything else I agree to. I'll do the updates later today.

 

[Elizio33]

That's technically a 2-A feat, however it was only done after he absorbed the heroes' energies, so it would fall under his "up to 2-A with Absorption" section.

It just needs to be reworded. Everything else I agree to. I'll do the updates later today.

Okay no problem. So the Dawn of Time key should still be removed, but his feat would remain on the "up to 2-A with the Energy Absorption" section and will be reformulated.

Regardless, are you agree with the section "Varies from 3-C to 2-C normally" or "Varies from 4-A to 2-C normally"?

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

Anti-Monitor

No hope. No mercy. The universe you knew is nothing but a memory and I have no intention of leaving anyone alive to honor it. The Anti-Monitor, real name Mobius, is one of the three sons of Perpetua, created when she tore pieces from the Overvoid to shape into her children. He existed before the...

vsbattles.fandom.com

@Antvasima could you unlock this page?

Also 3-C should be 4-B since we previously rated it at that, the 3-C thing is only for the AM's durability and he downscaled to 4-A from it.

 

[Elizio33]

Anti-Monitor

No hope. No mercy. The universe you knew is nothing but a memory and I have no intention of leaving anyone alive to honor it. The Anti-Monitor, real name Mobius, is one of the three sons of Perpetua, created when she tore pieces from the Overvoid to shape into her children. He existed before the...

vsbattles.fandom.com

@Antvasima could you unlock this page?

Also 3-C should be 4-B since we previously rated it at that, the 3-C thing is only for the AM's durability and he downscaled to 4-A from it.

Agree. Plus we saw the Anti-Monitor struggling against the combined might of regular heroes in the past. So, 4-B makes more sense.

 

[Elizio33]

Bump

 

[Firestorm808]

Agree. Plus we saw the Anti-Monitor struggling against the combined might of regular heroes in the past. So, 4-B makes more sense.

Which scene are you referencing?

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

Which scene are you referencing?

Could you hnlock the page?

 

[Firestorm808]

Unlocked.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

I'm done. You can lock the page. I'll close this since I think we're done here.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you to everybody who helped out here.