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Vertigo Characters should stay where they are. Characters part of the same Main DC Morrisonid Cosmology roster are questionable.
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Anti-monitor for high 2-A!
- Thread starter PRIDEXEGO
- Start date
- Status
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Every writer who's tried to form their own cosmological structure contradicts other writers, and yet DC's stance is that absolutely everything is canon to the wider DC Multiverse. Trying to downgrade all of DC based on that single storyline is a big yikes from me.
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i was 100% aware that all of dc cosmology and other past canons were included as overal canon by convergence but whatevs, it seems to me people are really the type to downgrade a verse based off stupid statements
mr mxy is stupid at the same time tho cause he also said the multiverse was 4D while pointing at the god sphere.
mr mxy is stupid at the same time tho cause he also said the multiverse was 4D while pointing at the god sphere.
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and we do know based off the new sandman universe that it is post dark knights metal. In the final issue of dark knights metal we actually see lucien looking for daniel as we dont know what fully happened to daniel until we get the dreaming issue 1. the dreaming issue 1 continues from that showing that daniel actually stripped his role as dream. we also do know in the dreaming comic that lucien says "morpheus has fallen as the dream king" which hints to morpheus dying back in the original sandman run.
also in morrisans multiversity map we can actually see destiny placed in the overvoid as we know from the past sandman books that destinys book contains creation in dc comics.
the new 52 also shows the presence who resides as a dog in heaven
from my understanding at least the creators of the new 52/rebirth took all canons in dc and just decided to merge all of them into one big mess.
because one of the 50 earths is the wild storm universe, but we also know from convergence that the wild storm multiverse still exist. so again its just one big mess but it seems the writers are trying to fit everything into one big thing and the problems that comes into that is writing flaws and inconsistences
also in morrisans multiversity map we can actually see destiny placed in the overvoid as we know from the past sandman books that destinys book contains creation in dc comics.
the new 52 also shows the presence who resides as a dog in heaven
from my understanding at least the creators of the new 52/rebirth took all canons in dc and just decided to merge all of them into one big mess.
because one of the 50 earths is the wild storm universe, but we also know from convergence that the wild storm multiverse still exist. so again its just one big mess but it seems the writers are trying to fit everything into one big thing and the problems that comes into that is writing flaws and inconsistences
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Like, tons upon tons of strawmans. Downgrading all of DC? Like, as if everything in DC is Tier 1 and above? When did that happen? Everyone is acting as if this is the case. No. Most of DC's High-1Bs and 1-As are Vertigo which should remain untouched.
It's not my fault that 1-B and High-1B scans are murkily unreliable secondary authority scans that are not consistent with the general Morrisonid cosmology of DC. You do not realize you suffer the same problem no matter what interpretation you use.
It's not my fault that 1-B and High-1B scans are murkily unreliable secondary authority scans that are not consistent with the general Morrisonid cosmology of DC. You do not realize you suffer the same problem no matter what interpretation you use.
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"Secondary authority scans" aren't a real thing Nether. You are just continiously appealing to an inexistent authorial authority while also ignoring everything that doesn't fit your worldview.
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I don't know if you already know that but the sixth dimension is a realm beyond imagination and of impossible where the multiverse was designed and set in motion. This dimension is closed to all except for the most powerful few beings like Perpetua and the brother three.
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It's very weird that a sixth dimensional realm is beyond the source wall within this storyline.. I guess that we probably should do the same thing as we did with the omega titans and add more explanations for the tier of the brother three (Monitor, Anti-Monitor and World Forger).
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@Elizio
A Sixth Dimensional Realm that is greater than a High-1B Source Wall.
A Sixth Dimensional Realm that is greater than a High-1B Source Wall.
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@Elizio
Perhaps DC has a different definition of dimension from what we're used to. And we can continue pretending the Source Wall is High-1B and multiple different Multiverses exists outside of it?
Perhaps DC has a different definition of dimension from what we're used to. And we can continue pretending the Source Wall is High-1B and multiple different Multiverses exists outside of it?
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People need to stop focusing on the "Sixth World" statement so much. It's getting seriously out of hand to the point of ridiculousness.
The comic wasn't making any blanket limitations on the geometric nature of reality and putting a cap on the multiverse. That is absurd, and to use a 2019 comic by Scott Snyder as gospel and ignore eveything else ever released in literal decades of storytelling is similarly hogwash.
No, what was happening is that the story was expanding on Grant Morrison's Philosophical / Metatextual notion that the 5th Dimension is Imagination. As in, the Imagination of the inhabitants of the Multiverse and / or the Imagination of the readers. It is described as blood that flows between the universes, the energy that keeps the multiverse alive, and this is obviously because the DC Multiverse is fictional and thus exists in our Imagination.
The 5th Dimension being Imagination and the Bleed between the fourth-dimensional universes does not set a hard cap or a clear geometrical pattern on the layers surrounding it either. Outside of the Bleed and the Speed Force is the Sphere of the Gods, which is literally all over the place.
For instance, New Genesis and Apokolips exist outside multiversal Space and Time, and yet are described as "The Fourth World". Meanwhile the domains of Dreams and Nightmares certainly isn't bound by the fourth dimension, and in fact we know that Dream's realm is far larger than the entire multiverse proper.
And let's not get into Hypertime, which depending on your interpretation may just be literal higher-dimensional time and thus 5th dimensional, or more likely a metatextual concept that speaks on the simultaneous validity and existence of all stories, as they are all available for the reader to pick up and read, and believe to be real. Which may facilitate to explain the contradictions here shown.
And the less said about Megaverses and "Multi-Multiverses" the better. It's very clear that in DC Comics there is a tangible difference between a multiverse and THE Multiverse. The former is just a collection of multiple parallel realities and alternate universes while the later is the Totality of existence, also called Creation. In fact, I would argue that in DC there exist infinite multiverses inside THE Multiverse proper.
And then there is Limbo, which exists outside of all stories, as an empty void where nothing ever happens and only what is truly forgotten exists. Again Limbo is not a strict dimensional layer. The DC Multiverse isn't shaped like an onion despite what you may assume. Limbo is yet another metatextual concept, this time speaking of the ideas and notions which are abandoned and forgotten by the readers and also the authors. And fade from memory and into obscurity, never to feature again. Nevertheless, these ideas are still valid and still exist in the DC Multiverse. Again, Metafiction rules all.
And finally, we reach the "Monitor Sphere". Explicitly the most external layer of the Multiverse, being a fundamental world of pure thought where everything is more primal and more real compared to the internal layers. It is called the "Sixth World" by Mr.Mxy in the Snyder comics, and he also goes to say that it exists beyond all imagination. Why?, the Monitor Sphere is the home of the Monitors, and if we once again go back to Grant Morrison's ideas, the Monitors represent the writers and editors. They supervise the multiverse below, the edit it, they assert their will onto it, they change it to better suit their designs, and most importantly they suck the life out of it like cosmic vampires.
It is only natural that the Monitor Sphere is beyond imagination. Because while Imagination is born from the reading of the story itself, from the awe and wonder that can be gained from turning the comic page by page, and maybe believing for a moment that the story is truly real, the perspective of a writer and of an editor is completely different. They see the artificiality, the building process, the slow construction of the fiction step by step, the publishing process, the editorial mandates, the delays, and everything. Making a comicbook has nothing to do with imagination.
And in light of the numerous other stories which throw higher dimensional numbers for the DC Multiverse (11, 13, 28, 196,000, innumerable, countless, endless, infinite, what have you) and which are all equally perfectly valid by the way the Cosmology works to begin with, downgrading the Monitors, and the DC Multiverse as a whole to 6D is ludicrous and unnaceptable.
The comic wasn't making any blanket limitations on the geometric nature of reality and putting a cap on the multiverse. That is absurd, and to use a 2019 comic by Scott Snyder as gospel and ignore eveything else ever released in literal decades of storytelling is similarly hogwash.
No, what was happening is that the story was expanding on Grant Morrison's Philosophical / Metatextual notion that the 5th Dimension is Imagination. As in, the Imagination of the inhabitants of the Multiverse and / or the Imagination of the readers. It is described as blood that flows between the universes, the energy that keeps the multiverse alive, and this is obviously because the DC Multiverse is fictional and thus exists in our Imagination.
The 5th Dimension being Imagination and the Bleed between the fourth-dimensional universes does not set a hard cap or a clear geometrical pattern on the layers surrounding it either. Outside of the Bleed and the Speed Force is the Sphere of the Gods, which is literally all over the place.
For instance, New Genesis and Apokolips exist outside multiversal Space and Time, and yet are described as "The Fourth World". Meanwhile the domains of Dreams and Nightmares certainly isn't bound by the fourth dimension, and in fact we know that Dream's realm is far larger than the entire multiverse proper.
And let's not get into Hypertime, which depending on your interpretation may just be literal higher-dimensional time and thus 5th dimensional, or more likely a metatextual concept that speaks on the simultaneous validity and existence of all stories, as they are all available for the reader to pick up and read, and believe to be real. Which may facilitate to explain the contradictions here shown.
And the less said about Megaverses and "Multi-Multiverses" the better. It's very clear that in DC Comics there is a tangible difference between a multiverse and THE Multiverse. The former is just a collection of multiple parallel realities and alternate universes while the later is the Totality of existence, also called Creation. In fact, I would argue that in DC there exist infinite multiverses inside THE Multiverse proper.
And then there is Limbo, which exists outside of all stories, as an empty void where nothing ever happens and only what is truly forgotten exists. Again Limbo is not a strict dimensional layer. The DC Multiverse isn't shaped like an onion despite what you may assume. Limbo is yet another metatextual concept, this time speaking of the ideas and notions which are abandoned and forgotten by the readers and also the authors. And fade from memory and into obscurity, never to feature again. Nevertheless, these ideas are still valid and still exist in the DC Multiverse. Again, Metafiction rules all.
And finally, we reach the "Monitor Sphere". Explicitly the most external layer of the Multiverse, being a fundamental world of pure thought where everything is more primal and more real compared to the internal layers. It is called the "Sixth World" by Mr.Mxy in the Snyder comics, and he also goes to say that it exists beyond all imagination. Why?, the Monitor Sphere is the home of the Monitors, and if we once again go back to Grant Morrison's ideas, the Monitors represent the writers and editors. They supervise the multiverse below, the edit it, they assert their will onto it, they change it to better suit their designs, and most importantly they suck the life out of it like cosmic vampires.
It is only natural that the Monitor Sphere is beyond imagination. Because while Imagination is born from the reading of the story itself, from the awe and wonder that can be gained from turning the comic page by page, and maybe believing for a moment that the story is truly real, the perspective of a writer and of an editor is completely different. They see the artificiality, the building process, the slow construction of the fiction step by step, the publishing process, the editorial mandates, the delays, and everything. Making a comicbook has nothing to do with imagination.
And in light of the numerous other stories which throw higher dimensional numbers for the DC Multiverse (11, 13, 28, 196,000, innumerable, countless, endless, infinite, what have you) and which are all equally perfectly valid by the way the Cosmology works to begin with, downgrading the Monitors, and the DC Multiverse as a whole to 6D is ludicrous and unnaceptable.
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Incredible reply. And I would rather make a blog myself.
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To avoid confusion and even more controversy I'd kindly ask you to cease working on it.
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I think that Matthew makes sense.
However, I have three questions:
Don't the 1-B references seem more reliable than a single throwaway High 1-B mention in a Larfleeze comicbook?
If The Monitor, the Anti-Monitor, Barbatos, Perpetua, and the World Forger now scale from Mandrakk, should we give them the same tier? In separate keys for the first two of course.
Also, how does this affect Mxyzptlk and Bat-Mite?
However, I have three questions:
Don't the 1-B references seem more reliable than a single throwaway High 1-B mention in a Larfleeze comicbook?
If The Monitor, the Anti-Monitor, Barbatos, Perpetua, and the World Forger now scale from Mandrakk, should we give them the same tier? In separate keys for the first two of course.
Also, how does this affect Mxyzptlk and Bat-Mite?
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That's ridiculous.Matthew Schroeder said:
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Mxy should remain High 2-A imo. If the DC Multiverse is going to be 1-B or High 1-B it's honestly kinda up in the air. At most I'd suggest a compromise "At least 1-B, possibly High 1-B" and it would apply to the top tier beings in the setting. With the exception of course being the 1-As who'd be unaffected. Lucifer and Michael were 1-A back when we had a 11D multiverse.
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As for Monitor and Anti-Monitor, probably a compromise should be "At least High 2-A, likely [Whatever rating we decide on]. Since they're clearly meant to be comparable to the highest level Monitors and have feats of affecting the Source Wall and the Dark Multiverse.
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Matthew's word is not, and should not, be the end-all-be-all. He can work on his blog all he wants. That shouldn't stop people questioning it and making their own. Once his is made, it should be discussed whether if it's correct in the first place. And to do that, it would be wise for those that don't agree with his points to make their own.Antvasima said:
Asking otherwise is ridiculous.
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@Lephyr
The problem is that releasing several conflicting blogs at the same time would cause chaos and confusion. It is better to let Matthew handle this first, and then discuss if modifications or alternative blogs are needed.
The problem is that releasing several conflicting blogs at the same time would cause chaos and confusion. It is better to let Matthew handle this first, and then discuss if modifications or alternative blogs are needed.
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Nobody is saying I'm the be-all, end-all, do not misunderstand. All I say is that there's honestly too much confusion and misinformation plus confrontational controversy for progress to be made. The misunderstanding of the structure of the multiverse all the moreso.
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I mean, Hykuu could just leave it prepared anyway. Asking him to not do it it's still ridiculous.
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Innumerable is a synonym for Infinite many times often, Paul Jenkins should have made that clear in his comic, otherwise his statement is worthless and his number would get absorbed by the Larfleeze number. If you want to say that Innumerable doesn't mean infinite, fine, but there are a lot of things in fiction called "Infinite" that aren't really infinite at all either. They're both as hyperbolic as the other.
As for the Snowflake, the Snowflake is just part of Bleed Space, it is just 1 facet of the entire DC Multiverse. It's just the Wildstorm Multiverse. It lets us know that 1-B structures are just a small facet of the total DC Cosmology.
Perpetua, and her three sons would technically belong to an at least 1-B Category under a Total DC Cosmology perspective. One could simply interpret that this 6th Dimension is just wrongly named.
As for the Snowflake, the Snowflake is just part of Bleed Space, it is just 1 facet of the entire DC Multiverse. It's just the Wildstorm Multiverse. It lets us know that 1-B structures are just a small facet of the total DC Cosmology.
Perpetua, and her three sons would technically belong to an at least 1-B Category under a Total DC Cosmology perspective. One could simply interpret that this 6th Dimension is just wrongly named.
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Am I now being stopped from making a blog which would clear this entire mess up because Matt's subjective view on me indicates he's better off doing it? Did I really start working on this blog for nothing? Great, I am now being stopped from being able to help the wikia, perfect.
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Look, I just think that it might be best if you wait until he has had the time to finish working on it, and then you can suggest improvements. I am tired and overworked, and don't want any drama. That is all. Thank you.
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