• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

DC Comics - Remove the Anti Matter Wave and Durability Downgrade

Status
Not open for further replies.
Elizio33

Elizio33

VS Battles
Thread Moderator
3,028
2,545
As the title suggests, we should remove the Anti Matter Wave feat from the Anti-Monitor profile as it was more of a chain reaction caused by Pariah's experiment than anything else. The Anti-Monitor took advantage of the fact that Pariah's experiment had opened a gap between the universe of positive matter and that of antimatter, which awoke him, then proceeded to convert the antimatter into energy that had been concentrated in the Pariah universe. The antimatter wave itself mainly did what it did because positive matter and antimatter cannot co-exist without destroying everything in contact between the two. It is simply a Hax rather than an actual power level display.

The Anti-Monitor should stay 2-C, possibly 2-A from beating up Pre-Crisis Superman. Killing off Pre-Crisis Supergirl, even though he was badly injured by her because she caught him off guard. Is implied to be superior to Pre-Crisis Darkseid. He is considerably superior to them but not that much and needed to absorb the energy of a sun to fight against several heroes in his realm, the antimatter universe, and was knocked out after Dr. Light absorbed the energy of this sun and redirected it towards him. Even his own Thunderers were able to damage him. The energy he absorb are collected inside his armor which acts as an energy collector, making him more powerful and durable. His durability should Varies depending on the energy he'd absorbed.

To sum up:

Remove the Anti Matter Wave from the Anti-Monitor profile and leave him to 2-C, possibly 2-A from scaling to the Pre-Crisis version of Superman, Supergirl and Darkseid.

Downgrade the Anti-Monitor's durability to Varies depending on the energy he'd absorbed.
 
Last edited:
Elizio33 said:
. Even his own Thunderers were able to damage him.
Click to expand...
You not read?
The Warrior said that they have part of the power of Mobius, this is not a antifeat, they, just have that level of attack potency🗿
imgur.io

Anti-Monitor bestowed some of his power on the Qwardians

Discover the magic of the internet at Imgur, a community powered entertainment destination. Lift your spirits with funny jokes, trending memes, entertaining gifs, inspiring stories, viral videos, and so much more from users like PrinceOfTheMorning.
imgur.io imgur.io
 
Oliver_de_jesus said:
You not read?
The Warrior said that they have part of the power of Mobius, this is not a antifeat, they, just have that level of attack potency🗿
imgur.io

Anti-Monitor bestowed some of his power on the Qwardians

Discover the magic of the internet at Imgur, a community powered entertainment destination. Lift your spirits with funny jokes, trending memes, entertaining gifs, inspiring stories, viral videos, and so much more from users like PrinceOfTheMorning.
imgur.io imgur.io
Click to expand...
The sentence says: You gave us some of your own power."

This means that the Anti-Monitor gave them some of his power and therefore they don't have that level of attack potency.
 
Elizio33 said:
The sentence says: You gave us some of your own power."

This means that the Anti-Monitor gave them some of his power and therefore they don't have that level of attack potency.
Click to expand...
Yes, I know, but it was a team attack, the first one hit him by surprise, the others attacked him all at once, it still doesn't really should be used in this case
 
Oliver_de_jesus said:
Yes, I know, but it was a team attack, the first one hit him by surprise, the others attacked him all at once, it still doesn't really should be used in this case
Click to expand...
The Anti-Monitor fought back and was temporarily overwhelmed by them.
 
Emirp sumitpo said:
We give AP ratings to hax abilities all the time, this isn't any different to that.


Why would this contradict anything?
Click to expand...
The anti-matter wave didn't even come from the Anti-Monitor's own power, it was a side effect of Pariah's experiment and that positive matter and anti-matter can't co-exist without destroying everything in contact. He shouldn't scale to this.

The Thunderers have some of the Anti-Monitor's power, clearly implying that they are weaker than him, coupled with the fact that he can wipe them out easily but was still hurt by their collective efforts. He also needed amps to fight against the multiple heroes two times.
 
which doesn't mean much, bro, if I'm a 10 and I had given someone a 3 power, the first one hit him by surprise, then a group of these guys with 3 can give me a fight collectively, the same applies here


Elizio33 said:
The anti-matter wave didn't even come from the Anti-Monitor's own power, it was a side effect of Pariah's experiment and that positive matter and anti-matter can't co-exist without destroying everything in contact. He shouldn't scale to this
Click to expand...
where it is said that it is the same anti matter? it's all based that you assume it's the same wave, and you've already shown that Mobius controls to the point where he can expand and redirect
 
Elizio33 said:
The sentence says: You gave us some of your own power."

This means that the Anti-Monitor gave them some of his power and therefore they don't have that level of attack potency.
Click to expand...
You do realise there are scaling chains?
You can be weaker than someone in same tier.

"Some power" isn't infinitismal and insignificant power. The fact the minion damaged the boss proves that the power bestowed was substantial and on same level as Anti-Monitor if it was able to hurt him.
 
I disagree with the coexistence argument, because destroying a multiverse with any kind of finite amp (e = mc2, in this case) is still 2-A. And his energies that he collected in the first place wouldn't be infinitely superior to said multiverse-destroying antimatter, either.

However, if he truly collects the energies from universes he destroys to destroy more universes, then I agree with the premise.
Elizio33 said:
absorb the energy of a sun to fight against several heroes in his realm, the antimatter universe, and was knocked out after Dr. Light absorbed the energy of this sun and redirected it towards him.
Click to expand...
I guess I'm convinced by this because DC sun logic was (and still is, mind you) stupid.

Pre-Crisis Sun-Eater was billions of times stronger than Superboy for consuming billions of suns.
Elizio33 said:
Even his own Thunderers were able to damage him. The energy he absorb are collected inside his armor which acts as an energy collector, making him more powerful and durable.
Click to expand...
Disagree FRA.
Elizio33 said:
His durability should Varies depending on the energy he'd absorbed.
Click to expand...
Wouldn't this also apply to his AP?
 
It's more that he doesn't have a 2-A amount of energy at once, by this logic.

He has a potentially infinitely lesser amount of energy (the bare minimum in this scenario), and it perpetuates across every universe he destroys because each universe refuels it.

That's, at least, if I'm understanding it correctly.
 
Elizio33 said:
The anti-matter wave didn't even come from the Anti-Monitor's own power, it was a side effect of Pariah's experiment and that positive matter and anti-matter can't co-exist without destroying everything in contact. He shouldn't scale to this.
Click to expand...
I strongly agree with this.

Simply put, the profiles are meant to reflect what the character is capable of in a VS match up. Anti-Monitor, definitively, is not capable of simply unleashing a 2-A anti-matter wave against any opponent he fights. It was a very specific event that arose out of circumstances beyond AM's control.

Moreover, there's additional information in the storyline that directly indicates that he isn't capable of doing that.

When the multiverse had been reduced down to simply five universes, he had his lackeys create a machine with the intention of destroying the remaining seven. Why on earth would he do that if he had the power to do it himself?

"His eyes follow the building of his anti-matter cannon."
"Once completed, he will use the antimatter cannon to obliterate the remaining five universes."

Crucially: The reason the antimatter wave and antimatter cannon can destroy universes is because antimatter destroys positive matter. The 2-A nature of the anti-matter wave is range, not AP. Antimatter automatically destroys positive matter.
 
ByAsura said:
I agree with the rest, but weren't they explicitly shielded from the effects of the normal wave?
Click to expand...
They were moved to a protective limbo.

I suppose you could postulate that the cannon was uniquely designed to penetrate the limbo, but personally I still find it a biiiiit far-fetched to think that his lackeys can build a device to do something he ought to be entirely capable of himself.
 
ByAsura said:
If the universes weren't more durable when their space-times began to combine, then I suppose that's fair.
Click to expand...
Given the setting and mechanism, I don't think durability is really a factor, IMO:

Deagonx said:
Crucially: The reason the antimatter wave and antimatter cannon can destroy universes is because antimatter destroys positive matter. The 2-A nature of the anti-matter wave is range, not AP. Antimatter automatically destroys positive matter.
Click to expand...

If anti-matter touches those universes, they'll be destroyed. There's just no way around it, it's just hax in that sense.
 
To be honest, what bothers me is 2-C, possibly 2-A based on Pre-Crisis Superman for the Anti-Monitor. The story has clearly shown that Mobius is nowhere near the level of infinite universes or even that of low multiversal, not in term of Attack Potency. I would best see the Anti-Monitor's tier between 3-A or Low 2-C, which I personally think would suit Pre-Crisis Superman better too, but this isn't the thread for that, since Mobius and his two brothers have shown that they can affect individual universes in a sufficient way.
 
Last edited:
Even though it's from DC Comics Encyclopedia: All-New Edition, I now believe the Anti-Monitor's most famous feat has been 'debunked' as something he didn't do with his own power. It's no exaggeration to consider these two versions (COIE and New 52) of the character as equal in power. As I said, Low 2-C should be fine for Mobius.
 
Elizio33 said:
Even though it's from DC Comics Encyclopedia: All-New Edition, I now believe the Anti-Monitor's most famous feat has been 'debunked' as something he didn't do with his own power. It's no exaggeration to consider these two versions of the character as equal in power. As I said, Low 2-C should be fine for Mobius.
Click to expand...
I agree.
 
To summarize with what has been agreed currently until any change:

Remove the Anti Matter Wave from the Anti-Monitor's Attack Potency - Agree: 2 - Disagree: 2

Downgrade the Anti-Monitor's resistance to Varies- Agree: 1 - Disagree: 2

I will add my new suggestions on the thread op regarding Low 2-C Anti-Monitor and that the two versions (COIE and New 52) of the Anti-Monitor being equal. I'll see you agree with these new suggestions.
 
LuciferX said:
I agree. btw, what are the 2-C and 2-A feats of Pre-crisis Superman and Darksied?
Click to expand...
Superman (Pre-Crisis)

Low Multiverse level (Comparable to Harbinger's clone who merged Earth-X, Earth-4 and Earth-S into the Netherverse to save them from the Anti-Matter Wave[1] and mortally wounded an extremely weakened Monitor.[2] Comparable to other Pre-Crisis Kryptonians such as Supergirl and Superboy-Prime. Repeatedly manage to harm Maaldor the Darklord, who turned himself into an entire universe upon becoming mad and in a later story he defeat him in his abstract form. Pushed himself toward the center of the big bang and destroyed a structure that was withstanding it.[3] Comparable to the original Captain Marvel, who defeated the Invincible Man), possibly Multiverse level+ (Generated enough power to restore all future timelines wiped out by the Time Trapper in his clash with Jaxon.[4] Manage to lobotomize Maaldor with great effort, who at that point had grown so large that he was threatening all existence[5])

Darkseid (Pre-Crisis)

Low Multiverse level, possibly Multiverse level+ (While significantly weakened, he defeated both Mordru and Time Trapper (Controller) and absorbed their energies, along with energy from all of Sorcerer's World, and was still weaker than normal. Highfather stated he was capable of destroying Takion, who also admitted Darkseid was more powerful than he was. Incapacitated Post-Crisis Superman with a single, casual blast)

For Superman, what's the evidence that Superman was comparable to Harbinger's clone? One of the feat he has isn't from his own attack potency, but from a side-effect of a fight. During the COIE, the combined strength of the Pre-Crisis versions of Superman and fifty other heroes was just strong enough to decimate a solar system, not to mention that the Anti-Monitor, who defeated Earth-1 Superman and threatened Darkseid, was knocked out by a Star level blow from Dr. Light. Low 2-C is better for Pre-Crisis Superman, Darksied and the Anti-Monitor, but that's my opinion.
 
Last edited:
ByAsura said:
Critiquing pre-crisis Superman's ratings is best reserved for another thread.
Click to expand...
Fair enough, but I just want to point out that if a character is clearly said or described as being stronger than a certain character, but that weaker character has better feats than the stronger character who in turn has less impressive feats, would you upgrade the strongest character up or down the weakest character? What I meant by that was that the Anti-Monitor defeated Pre-Crisis Superman and threatened Darkseid, but the Anti-Monitor is nowhere near Multiverse level, not even Low Multiverse level, according to the comics. Anyway, let's get back on topic.
 
Elizio33 said:
Fair enough, but I just want to point out that if a character is clearly said or described as being stronger than a certain character, but that weaker character has better feats than the stronger character who in turn has less impressive feats, would you upgrade the strongest character up or down the weakest character?
Click to expand...
The former, its what we do in most verses/characters, the latter only happen if the feat in question its trully proven to be an outlier.

Feat wise Marvel Zeus its nowhere near as impressive as Marvel Odin, yet we still scale him on the same level.
 
Last edited:
Firestorm808 said:
If the Anti-Matter Wave is not something he can do on his own, I'm fine with removing it.
Click to expand...
I already answered this, the anti-matter wave is not the same as the one that destroyed Pariah's universe, it is not said in the comic, even if it were, Mobius would still have control over it by being able to redirect it and expand its range
 
Oliver_de_jesus said:
I already answered this, the anti-matter wave is not the same as the one that destroyed Pariah's universe, it is not said in the comic, even if it were, Mobius would still have control over it by being able to redirect it and expand its range
Click to expand...
What is the evidence he can redirect it or expand the range of the anti-matter wave? My understanding was that it was set into motion and was then unstoppable, not that Mobius was willing it in a certain direction or expanding it personally.
 
The majority seems to agree on the removal of the anti-matter wave. Unless Anti-Monitor showed full control or was part of its power. Like Pariah when he created the infinite earth it was also a chain reaction and cannot do it with his power alone.
 
VeryGoofyToddler said:
The majority seems to agree on the removal of the anti-matter wave. Unless Anti-Monitor showed full control or was part of its power. Like Pariah when he created the infinite earth it was also a chain reaction and cannot do it with his power alone.
Click to expand...
Yep, but let's wait for other options and there're also durability downgrade proposal, Low 2-C tier proposal, and the the New 52 key removal which are still to be discussed.
 
Elizio33 said:
To be honest, what bothers me is 2-C, possibly 2-A based on Pre-Crisis Superman for the Anti-Monitor. The story has clearly shown that Mobius is nowhere near the level of infinite universes or even that of low multiversal, not in term of Attack Potency. I would best see the Anti-Monitor's tier between 3-A or Low 2-C, which I personally think would suit Pre-Crisis Superman better too, but this isn't the thread for that, since Mobius and his two brothers have shown that they can affect individual universes in a sufficient way.
Click to expand...

Elizio33 said:
Even though it's from DC Comics Encyclopedia: All-New Edition, I now believe the Anti-Monitor's most famous feat has been 'debunked' as something he didn't do with his own power. It's no exaggeration to consider these two versions (COIE and New 52) of the character as equal in power. As I said, Low 2-C should be fine for Mobius.
Click to expand...
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

IdiosyncraticLawyer
  • Locked
DC Comics: Acausality revisions
2 3
Replies
84
Views
4K
IdiosyncraticLawyer
IdiosyncraticLawyer
MrVenomYTX
Oni Garmadon VS Anti-Monitor
Replies
38
Views
1K
TheOrangeGuy09
TheOrangeGuy09
Elizio33
  • Locked
SCW and New 52 Anti-Monitor
2 3 4
Replies
158
Views
5K
Antvasima
Antvasima
NerdxBlerd
Firestorm Anti Matter manipulation
Replies
1
Views
436
Popbum
PrinceStories
Added ability for The Great Darkness
Replies
30
Views
2K
Antvasima
Antvasima
Back
Top