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(GRACE) 2 Yonko Commanders fighting Fire with Fire!

Well Ace has that obvious benefit of not being harmed by any of King's flame attacks for very obvious reasons, but besides that does he have much going for him? Only thing I can say in defense of Ace is: He has Armament that allows him to fight nearly on par with pre-ts 1-DF Blackbeard ( who was still obviously a little strong despite not being a Warlord yet ) and Jinbe despite Jinbe having a direct counter to his powers, and his observation and good analytical skills should allow him to notice King's gimmick quickly, seeing as he was able to quickly realize and counter Blackbeard's Kurouzu attack and avoid his DF powers. On the other hand, King seems to be faster and more durable, so I'm not too sure who wins here. If Ace finds out King's weakness quickly and spams attacks on his weak spots then he might win this, but that seems a bit unlikely honestly.
 
So.. King has armament, observation, a speed amp with Zoan form, can danmaku, snipe Ace from nearly a kilometer-
Ace is likely resistance to any fire based attack that isn't haki reinforced, but other than that he can't really hurt king in any way that matters, nor would King need or resort to flame-off mode to combat him (especially if he notices his fire isn't working to begin with)

Voting King
 
Eminiteable said:
Same thing would apply to King due to his natural resistance and on top of that the resistance to heat haki would grant plus devil fruit negation.
Click to expand...
So who do you think wins?

Care for one of your excellent multi-paragraph analyses that you've made for other vs debates (like for Zoro vs Oden)?
 
Eseseso said:
So who do you think wins?
Click to expand...
King's stronger, faster and too durable for Ace to harm normally on top of the resistances to Ace's primary way of attacking in the first place.

King's flames may not work but he still can primarily fight with his sword/haki/zoan powers to win. So King probably wins.
 
Be honest, is this too much of a stomp? Does Ace have any wincons?
 
Eseseso said:
Be honest, is this too much of a stomp? Does Ace have any wincons?
Click to expand...
TheMonkeMan said:
Well Ace has that obvious benefit of not being harmed by any of King's flame attacks for very obvious reasons, but besides that does he have much going for him? Only thing I can say in defense of Ace is: He has Armament that allows him to fight nearly on par with pre-ts 1-DF Blackbeard ( who was still obviously a little strong despite not being a Warlord yet ) and Jinbe despite Jinbe having a direct counter to his powers, and his observation and good analytical skills should allow him to notice King's gimmick quickly, seeing as he was able to quickly realize and counter Blackbeard's Kurouzu attack and avoid his DF powers. On the other hand, King seems to be faster and more durable, so I'm not too sure who wins here. If Ace finds out King's weakness quickly and spams attacks on his weak spots then he might win this, but that seems a bit unlikely honestly.
Click to expand...
 
King wouldn't really have a reason to turn his flame-off, he didn't need to resort to it against Marco and even if he did he'd still be blitz levels above Ace in speed and resistant to Ace's main way of attacking.
 
Voting King due to fire resistance, haki, blitzing if flames come off (and even without flames he has the durability to take a lot of Ace's blows, the dude took multiple Haoshoku attacks from Zoro [which are definitely above Ace's normal attacks] and despite being notably injured had no issue continuing to fight), and his flame-on durability being absolutely broken.

AP wise, Ace is only superior to no-sword King (and even that is iffy), and anything King does with his sword or above overpowers Ace.

Voting King
 
Eminiteable said:
Same thing would apply to King due to his natural resistance and on top of that the resistance to heat haki would grant plus devil fruit negation.
Click to expand...
Okay to be fair: Law outright confirmed that if your haki is stronger than your opponent's, you can null their df abilities. We may have even seen that when Shanks used Conq on Aramaki, too. So hypothetically, if Ace has better Haki than King ( which is kind of likely IMO ) then he can stop his DF powers and then he'll just be really durable and fast but he can't get any DF buffs or speed blitz him with Tempura Udon, plus depending on Ace's level of Observation he can predict things like King's stomach bomb ( not like he can't tank it anyway since y'know, he's got a resistance to every type of fire ) and some other attacks, though whether he's fast enough to actually avoid them is unknown since even Zoro couldn't do that. Though it is worth noting that he was fast enough to intercept a magma punch from Akainu who was notably angered and tired of Luffy escaping his grasp. Shanks managed to do this too, which means Ace shares a speed feat with him.
 
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TheMonkeMan said:
Okay to be fair: Law outright confirmed that if your haki is stronger than your opponent's, you can null their df abilities. We may have even seen that when Shanks used Conq on Aramaki, too. So hypothetically, if Ace has better Haki than King ( which is kind of likely IMO ) then he can stop his DF powers and then it's just gonna he'll just be really durable and fast but he can't get any DF buffs or speed blitz him with Tempura Udon, plus depending on Ace's level of Observation he can predict things like King's stomach bomb ( not like he can't tank it anyway since y'know, he's got a resistance to every type of fire ) and some other attacks, though whether he's fast enough to actually avoid them in unknown since even Zoro couldn't do that. Though it is worth noting that he was fast enough to intercept a magma punch from Akainu who was notably angered and tired of Luffy escaping his grasp. Shanks managed to do this too, which means Ace shares a speed feat with him.
Click to expand...
Do either @KingTempest or @Eminiteable know how strong Ace's Haki is compared to King's?
 
Eseseso said:
Voting King due to fire resistance, haki, blitzing if flames come off (and even without flames he has the durability to take a lot of Ace's blows, the dude took multiple Haoshoku attacks from Zoro [which are definitely above Ace's normal attacks] and despite being notably injured had no issue continuing to fight), and his flame-on durability being absolutely broken.

AP wise, Ace is only superior to no-sword King (and even that is iffy), and anything King does with his sword or above overpowers Ace.

Voting King
Click to expand...
I don't think he actually ever did take any serious attacks from Zoro with his flame off. That was kind of the whole point, actually. He couldn't really take hits when he had his flame off but with his flame on he could tank his attacks.
 
TheMonkeMan said:
I don't think he actually ever did take any serious attacks from Zoro with his flame off. That was kind of the whole point, actually. He couldn't really take hits when he had his flame off but with his flame on he could tank his attacks.
Click to expand...
He took 2 Haoshoku Infusion attacks from Zoro, but while he did bleed from them, he still kept on swinging.

And Zoro's Haoshoku >> His End of Fight Post-Mink Buso >> His Start of Fight Post-Mink Buso = King w/sword = Zoan Marco > Base Marco = Ace.

So King w/o flame can't just tank Ace's attacks, but even with no flame he retains the durability advantage.
 
TheMonkeMan said:
You just described Endurance.
Click to expand...
Him taking them is also durability considering they didn't one-shot him.

He was injured but wasn't one-shot.

He only got one-shot by Enma+Haoshoku after being already injured by Haoshoku and being exhausted.
 
TheMonkeMan said:
Okay to be fair: Law outright confirmed that if your haki is stronger than your opponent's, you can null their df abilities. We may have even seen that when Shanks used Conq on Aramaki, too. So hypothetically, if Ace has better Haki than King ( which is kind of likely IMO ) then he can stop his DF powers and then it's just gonna he'll just be really durable and fast but he can't get any DF buffs or speed blitz him with Tempura Udon
Click to expand...
Haki's only been shown to null devil fruit abilities applied to themselves and shown to resist abilities that would effect themselves, negating someone's transformation or techniques is un-proven.

King's Haki potency is 5 layers above baseline, Ace's haki is either 2 or 3 layers above baseline.
 
Eminiteable said:
Haki's only been shown to null devil fruit abilities applied to themselves and shown to resist abilities that would effect themselves, negating someone's transformation or techniques is un-proven.

King's Haki potency is 5 layers above baseline, Ace's haki is either 2 or 3 layers above baseline.
Click to expand...
aeac9-16591268343855-1920.jpg


Anyway I guess it doesn't matter if Haki takes people out of transformed states since Ace's Haki isn't good enough ( unless you can somehow null them by using conqueror's and the other opponent can't stop you if they don't also have conqueror's, but that'd be really strange )
 
Eseseso said:
Him taking them is also durability considering they didn't one-shot him.

He was injured but wasn't one-shot.

He only got one-shot by Enma+Haoshoku after being already injured by Haoshoku and being exhausted.
Click to expand...
Yeah and Kaidou taking a slice to his ab didn't one shot him either but it hurt badly and gave him a permanent scar.
 
TheMonkeMan said:
Anyway I guess it doesn't matter if Haki takes people out of transformed states since Ace's Haki isn't good enough ( unless you can somehow null them by using conqueror's and the other opponent can't stop you if they don't also have conqueror's, but that'd be really strange )
Click to expand...
Could be possible through Haoshoku, although the only feat of it is from Shanks who has an ongoing CRT that would put him at "Beyond Advanced Haoshoku" meanwhile Yamato's advanced Hao strike failed to do anything to Aramaki's Logia transformation and Ace has even weaker Hao than her.
 
Eminiteable said:
Could be possible through Haoshoku, although the only feat of it is from Shanks who has an ongoing CRT that would put him at "Beyond Advanced Haoshoku" meanwhile Yamato's advanced Hao strike failed to do anything to Aramaki's Logia transformation and Ace has even weaker Hao than her.
Click to expand...
She wasn't actively outputting it to specifically stop his transformation though. Hell, I doubt she even knows that's a thing ( which reminds me, fights where she gets clapped by someone's hax need her to have prior knowledge of haki nulling DFs, like that Hancock vs Yamato thread someone made ).
 
TheMonkeMan said:
She wasn't actively outputting it to specifically stop his transformation though. Hell, I doubt she even knows that's a thing ( which reminds me, fights where she gets clapped by someone's hax need her to have prior knowledge of haki nulling DFs, like that Hancock vs Yamato thread someone made ).
Click to expand...
Whether it's through a lack of knowledge or lack of an attempt no one shown the capability to do it besides Shanks so it's not really relevant to the Ace thread.
 
Eminiteable said:
Whether it's through a lack of knowledge or lack of an attempt no one shown the capability to do it besides Shanks so it's not really relevant to the Ace thread.
Click to expand...
I suppose it isn't relevant to an Ace thread. Still there is that connected feat between him and Shanks where they both were able to intercept a magma punch from a pissed off Akainu, which is probably a good speed feat for Ace, though I don't know if it'd help him against the man who nearly blitzed Zoro who has arguably better observation and overall speed compared to Ace ( I even fully believe Zoro would be capable of taking down an Admiral or at least pushing them to high/extreme diff but that isn't at all the subject at hand nor is it really relevant ).
 
Ace has drastically better kenbun and a resistance to 60% of King's arsenal

So keep that in mind
 
KingTempest said:
Ace has drastically better kenbun
Click to expand...
How?

I don't doubt you I just am unaware of Ace's kenbun.
KingTempest said:
and a resistance to 60% of King's arsenal
Click to expand...
But basically all Ace has is fire (which King has a lot of resistance too), while King has better Buso Haki and a lot of stat amps which give him an easy AP advantage, to say nothing of his broken flame-on durability.
 
Eseseso said:
How?

I don't doubt you I just am unaware of Ace's kenbun.

But basically all Ace has is fire (which King has a lot of resistance too), while King has better Buso Haki and a lot of stat amps which give him an easy AP advantage, to say nothing of his broken flame-on durability.
Click to expand...
Actually did we ever see him withstand flames? We see him manipulate him but that doesn't mean he has a total resistance to them. I need definite proof he can take Ace's flames before I can say he can resist them and win the battle. Also that's not all Ace has. He still has good physical stats and armament.
 
Eseseso said:
How?

I don't doubt you I just am unaware of Ace's kenbun.
Click to expand...
Eseseso said:
But basically all Ace has is fire (which King has a lot of resistance too), while King has better Buso Haki and a lot of stat amps which give him an easy AP advantage, to say nothing of his broken flame-on durability.
Click to expand...
You do realize that Ace is a good physical combatant as well correct?
"A lot of stat amps" they're all fire, which he resists
 
KingTempest said:
You do realize that Ace is a good physical combatant as well correct?
Click to expand...
Yes, but King has much better durability, blitzes without flame (and still has the durability even without flames to take a lot of hits), can do Danmaku with his Zoan form that isn't fire, and has Haki and Zoan amps (plus Pride Stake) to boost his AP.
KingTempest said:
"A lot of stat amps" they're all fire, which he resists
Click to expand...
Really? I didn't know his Zoan form, Buso Haki, and Imperial Deep Pride Stake were fire attacks.

How come you never made a CRT on that?

/s
 
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