Update Pre-Crisis Superman to Tier 2-C: Low Multiverse level

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Supergirl posing a threat to the Anti-Monitor seems very inconsistent. Although Supergirl herself is scaled from a character that might be Low 2-C depending on how we interpret her feats.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I would appreciate if you provide more information, as Pre-Crisis Superman is likely rated too low.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

You can check Supergirl's profile. The villain Blackstarr has control over space and time, and the unified binding forces of the universe (Gravity, Electromagnestism, Weak Force and Strong Force), and can reality warp and destroy the universe.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. That seems like a Low 2-C feat then, although I am still not sure that 2-C is an outlier.

 

[Antvasima]

Would anybody be interested in rescaling the Pre-Crisis Kryptonians and Darkseid to Low 2-C from the Supergirl feat?

 

[JohnCenaNation]

If it is a 2-C feat than it is an outlier.

I'm kinda skeptical on the 2-C feat being an outlier considering the fact that Pre-Crisis Superman once flew so fast that he was literally shown destroying the time barriers, and was stopped by Spectre due to Superman risking the destruction of civilian beyond numbers.

 

[ABoogieYesSir]

Oh yes the speed feats

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

He's also missing a lot of hax

Toonforce, Matter MAnipulation, Non physical interaction, I think he has a Regenerationn feat or two

 

[Antvasima]

Would anybody be interested in rescaling the Pre-Crisis Kryptonians and Darkseid to Low 2-C from the Supergirl feat?

Help with this would be appreciated.

 

[Sandman31]

Can someone post the scan where it was said that Darikstarr can destroy the universe? I dont really remember it, I remember her saying her power comes from the force that binds the universe together and that you need to "turn off" the universe to stop her power. she's the power of the cosmos etc but I dont think it was stated that she can destroy the universe, though I rember that it was stated that she and supergirl can pulverize galaxies. I might be misrembering things though

 

[JohnCenaNation]

Okay. That seems like a Low 2-C feat then, although I am still not sure that 2-C is an outlier.

This is where I got my source from.

https://***************.to/Comic/Superman-1939/Issue-295?id=16127&readType=1

Tell me, does this look like an outlier to you, when it was literally done on-screen with evidences and statements?

 

[Qawsedf234]

An outlier isn't determined by how much it's confirmed through narration but how it stacks up with the person's typical strength. Post-Crisis Superman amd 616 Hulk have various universal stuff but we don't say they're 3-A or higher.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, Pre-Crisis Superman was extremely seldom shown straining himself. Everything he did was done effortlessly, and he and Supergirl apparently did have a few universal feats as well.

It is much easier to believe a 2-C Pre-Crisis Superman than a Hulk or Post-Crisis Superman approaching the same level, when they have regularly been strained by infinitely less.

 

[Qawsedf234]

I get that Pre-Crisis Superman is more likely to receive a 2-C rating than Post-Crisis Superman or Hulk, I was just saying that him doing something doesn't mean that it isn't a outlier.

Plus I doubt he's went through 25+ years of publication with multiple authors without straining himself or having lower showings than 2-C.

 

[Antvasima]

I suppose. I just don't remember any instances of full-power Silver Age Superman straining himself.

 

[JohnCenaNation]

I get that Pre-Crisis Superman is more likely to receive a 2-C rating than Post-Crisis Superman or Hulk, I was just saying that him doing something doesn't mean that it isn't a outlier.
Plus I doubt he's went through 25+ years of publication with multiple authors without straining himself or having lower showings than 2-C.

He did strain himself when fighting against opponent lower than 2-C, but the authors had great explanations behind it. In Muhammad Ali's case, it was due to the red Sun. Now before you mention he got one-shotted by a proto-gun and a iron rod, it easily consider an outlier with explanations since neither attacks can destroy a building and he was caught off-guard. Anyways Pre-Crisis Superman performed many 2-C feats other than just the image scan I mentioned in the op, he fought against opponent like Composite Superman and did pretty well before losing, despite his opponent possessing his, Batman, and many members of the Legion of Super-Heroes's powers. I remember Pre-Crisis Superman fighting evenly with Infinity-Man against bunch of enemies many times, Infinity-Man at one point lost to Pre-Crisis Darkseid from a simple mindhax, meanwhile Pre-Crisis Superman was able to overpower the very same Pre-Crsis Darkseid in a fight alongside Pre-Crisis Supergirl. Pre-Crisis Supergirl at full power got easily overpowered by Pre-Crisis Superman in a fight without Pre-Crisis Superman even trying, and was able to easily hurt her with a simple heat vision.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

That's actually not true. One of the 3-A feats on Superman's profile involves him struggling against a Universal guy, but still hurting and beating him ultimately.

But then again, the guy created a universe from nothing with his dead which is probably a Low 2-C feat.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Superboy Prime is also Low 2-C, so it would make sense.

 

[JohnCenaNation]

That's actually not true. One of the 3-A feats on Superman's profile involves him struggling against a Universal guy, but still hurting and beating him ultimately.
But then again, the guy created a universe from nothing with his dead which is probably a Low 2-C feat.

Pre-Crisis Darkseid beat a 2-C opponent like Infinite Man in a fight. Pre-Crisis Darkseid outright admitted and stated that Infinite Man's power is considered inferior comparing to his full power. Infinity-Man is no slouch either.



Here is the result of Pre-Crisis Superman fighting against Pre-Crisis Darkseid.

 

[Antvasima]

That is John Byrne's Post-Crisis Superman and Darkseid fighting.

 

[JohnCenaNation]

That is John Byrne's Post-Crisis Superman and Darkseid fighting.

What about this one?

 

[Antvasima]

That is legitimate.

 

[Antvasima]

Although Highfather seems to have enhanced Superman and Supergirl for that confrontation during The Great Darkness Saga.

 

[JohnCenaNation]

Although Highfather seems to have enhanced Superman and Supergirl for that confrontation during The Great Darkness Saga.

But it still counts, doesn't it?

 

[Antvasima]

I am not sure.

 

[Antvasima]

In any case, I am personally fine with upgrading Pre-Crisis Superman to Low 2-C or possibly 2-C, but it is not up to me alone to decide.

 

[Read_this_post]

Tbf superman flying through time barriers is really just a speed feat and he wasnt really shown directly shown destroying time and would have been going throught them one at a time. It seems more like something done through constant acceleration to me. Although it could be taken as immeasurable speeds over time.

And wasnt darkseids feat mainly mind hax? Or is that still a raw power feat as well?

Also superboy prime base has a higher speed than pre crisis superman who should be the same in terms of speed

and on top of that superboy prime broke out of the speed force with raw power which is arguably 4D

 

[AKM sama]

The feat in the OP seems to be more like an action done in the present which changed the course of time and prevented the future from happening. Basic time travel thing. I don't get the implication that their power is able to destroy multiple timelines.

 

[Jared1111]

The feat in the OP seems to be more like an action done in the present which changed the course of time and prevented the future from happening. Basic time travel thing. I don't get the implication that their power is able to destroy multiple timelines.

To be fair, they mention that the ring energy was causing the destruction of all alternate timelines, and that it had entered the "time dimension" (I'm gong to assume the 4th Dimension) and caused multiple timelines to be destroyed (as mentioned before) and that it was only through having both Superman and Jaxon fight to generate enough power to COUNTER the Ring energy that those future timelines were restored, which not only means it was effecting the 4th Dimension (where the ring energy was) but it also countered the energy that was destroying ALL possible futures for Earth 1 (which i don't even want to know how you calculate all of that, so lets just say 2-3 timelines at least.) That seems pretty reasonable to put at least Low 2-C to possible 2-C.

Not to mention, the lanterns were going to war with the Time Trapper, who is also a confirmed 2-C being. So it's not too out of left field to imagine that level of power being given off.

Honeslty, i agree with a lot of people in this thread saying Superman should at least be upgraded to Low 2-C, as he does have feats with Blackstarr, Infinite Man, and even Darkseid that could at least put him on that level. Maybe 2-C for this feat and the (very vague and probably not applicable) feat with the Spectre after his Infinite speed trick, but Low 2-C at the very least. I don't know what would happen to the Sword of Superman would rank now though.

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

At least Low 2-C, possibly 2-C?

 

[Jared1111]

So i decided to look into the story to make sure the feat is legit, and yeah, when Jaxon and Superman clash they do in fact reboot the timelines.




And it's shown in the story that Jaxon is about as strong, if not a little bit weaker (or at least more inexperienced) than Superman so it's not like Jaxon was doing the heavy lifting.

 

[Antvasima]

@Matthew

We need to reach a conclusion here. Are you willing to help out?

 

[Read_this_post]

Wasnt time trappers powers considered a massive boost to superboy prime who was the same level as pre cisis superman? I think at least low 2-C, possibly 2-C would be better

 

[Antvasima]

I don't think that we can automatically scale between different eras and continuities with different writers in that manner.

 

[JohnCenaNation]

I would like to know what's so complicating about updating Earth-One Superman to Tier 2-C? We have Earth-Prime Superman who got updated to Tier 2-C despite showing no sign of multiverse level feats other than being amped by Time Trapper, but still struggles against opponents weaker than Earth-One Superman. Has speed upgraded to Immeasurable, even though after that, he still got tagged by characters much slower than Earth-One Superman. Yet Earth-One Superman's feats get treated like an outlier even it was done on-panel with feats involved without any signs of contradictions? This my friend is consider a double standard.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I am personally fine with it, but we need Matthew's and Sandman31's approvals. They have better senses of judgement regarding Marvel and DC than I do.

 

[Jared1111]

Wasnt time trappers powers considered a massive boost to superboy prime who was the same level as pre cisis superman? I think at least low 2-C, possibly 2-C would be better

To be fair, Time Trapper (as far as i know) is a far more casual 2-C level being, who can even get as far as 2-A with prep time. In fact, in the comic above it mentions that he casually was able to redirect the attack from the Lanterns that caused the destruction of ALL possible timelines in the future Earth One continuity (and probably no harm to himself) so Superboy-Prime's upgrade to the Time Trapper would still be substantial.

 

[Read_this_post]

Jared1111 On his profile where it says he warped many timelines, it says he warped all timelines. So shouldnt that just outright be multiversal plus?

 

[Antvasima]

That seems exaggerated, even for Pre-Crisis Superman.

 

[Read_this_post]

I mean time trapper. Since his multi universal feats are actually seemingly outright multiversal to multiversal plus.

Also i noticed that pre crisis supermans big bang feat is only universal whilst imperiexes big bang is universal+. So i do think low 2-C is possible.