Superman (Pre-Crisis) thread

[Deagonx]

I need to look into some stuff.

Detective Asura is on the case.

 

[ByAsura]

I wish. Then I might be able to handle -2 hours of sleep per night.

Maybe I could also pull self-hypnosis out of nowhere to do that.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Option 2: We consider Superman restoring infinite future timelines wiped out by the Time Trapper during his confrontation with Jaxon as inconsistent with the other feats he has which caps at tier 4-B to 2-C, therefore we remove the "possibly 2-A" tier and leave Pre-Crisis Superman and those who scale to him to tier 2-C.

I agree with this option.

 

[ByAsura]

On second thought, I'll also go with option 2.

Ignoring the power drop being so ******* massive for anything more than a short time is more consistent with scaling to Supergirl and other Kryptonians (at least from memory).

 

[Deagonx]

Okay. @Emirp sumitpo I know you offered an alternative, but you initially indicated that you were amicable to Option 2. With the other three agrees in this thread, are you comfortable with that solution still?

 

[Deagonx]

@LordTracer @Theglassman12 @Planck69 @Firestorm808 @Antvasima @Qawsedf234 @Eficiente

 

[LordTracer]

I don’t particularly care about Pre-Crisis revisions tbh (Superman’s page desperately needs a total overhaul, not just single stat revisions), but I suppose Option 2 seems fine.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

For Time Trapper thing, gl power rings didn't wipe all timelines through it's own power, it was because trapper setted up things which caused rings to enter time dimension thus happened it. you might say it's because of rings' power but it seems very unlikely to happen through by them directly, what's been implied that it was happened due to some plot devices, it lacks context on how it wiped out timelines, and the reason why all of them restored afterwards.

All we know is that the ring energies was used to wipe out all of Earth's possible futures when it entered the time dimension. The location it was in doesn't change the fact it did it via its energy. And the energy coming from Superman's and Jaxon's clash was what restored all the timelines.

Also Jaxon and Superman's fight was around city level. I'm aware DC=/=AP but it seems highly unlikely them to be in Tier 2, specially superman, if we exclude time trapper.

You... answered your own point.

My point is we don't know about the things which trapper arranged before and how it affects that feat. Superman once admitted he can't change history or rewrite timelines. This is the best superman can do I can do is give it my best...

He's not actively rewriting a timeline here, he's countering/matching energy capable of destroying all timelines, hence stopping the timelines from being destroyed.

I think it's very inconsistent give Tier 2-A for superman, we can't take a statement at face value ignoring the context. I could interprete it another way as I explained above though you can simply ignore this calling it as a headcanon. 2-A is too much.

The context is all there. The rings destroyed the timelines and the clash between Superman and Jaxon restored. The story makes that very blatant and clear cut.

Okay. @Emirp sumitpo I know you offered an alternative, but you initially indicated that you were amicable to Option 2. With the other three agrees in this thread, are you comfortable with that solution still?

I'm still fine if we go with Option 2.

 

[Deagonx]

Okay. We have enough staff agrees, but we will have to wait until the 48-hour grace period passes.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

Btw, you should list all profiles that need changing.

 

[Firestorm808]

I know this comes out of nowhere, but can I offer any suggestions to fix this? These are only suggestions and do not hesitate to share your impressions.

Option 1: We give Pre-Crisis Superman a variable tier based on the fact that many of his feats caps at tier 4 to 2. "Varies from 4-B to 2-C to possibly 2-A"

Option 2: We consider Superman restoring infinite future timelines wiped out by the Time Trapper during his confrontation with Jaxon as inconsistent with the other feats he has which caps at tier 4-B to 2-C, therefore we remove the "possibly 2-A" tier and leave Pre-Crisis Superman and those who scale to him to tier 2-C.

Option 2 seems fine.

 

[Jared1111]

No offense to some of the changes suggested here, but a lot of them seem to be finding fault where there is none

1.) The feat against Maaldor and Jaxon are pretty clear cut and not really that up to interpretation, ESPECIALLY the Jaxon one as the Green Lantern himself DIRECTLY that the power generated by the two reversed the energy strong enough to wipe out an infinite amount of possible futures/earths. Hence, this isn't really a feat where you can argue the context is off, it's very clearly stated on the page.

2.) Using statements from Superman himself about "not being able to change time" as proof that that feat isn't valid when not only (again) the Green Lantern himself directly state he changed the very flow of time in specific detail (especially seeing how his and the Corps own power was what caused the change in time in the first place) but Superman, even in Pre-Crisis, would often underestimate his own abilities either from humility or self-doubt. He once thought he would be killed by the planet destroying War World missiles despite surviving way worse in canon (this was the same run that had him break the boundaries of Infinity) so I don't think that should be considered when talking about his abilities (especially when said feat is blatantly obvious)

3.) Using later inconsistent feats of Pre-Crisis Superman to try to downplay this feat is wrong, since not do were have literally dozens of other feats that very much disprove him barely being able to move a planet (stuff he could do since he was a teenager). Still, it also comes from a brief period of time where Superman's powers were downgraded specifically in the universe and by the writers.

I tend to also regard that feat as not being indicative of power in that sense, as timelines can be weird that way. I do not get the impression from reading the comic that the best way to interpret the feat is the raw destruction of universes, but a collapsing of variations in time, which can be achieved through non-AP related means.

I'm sorry to sound rude, but this honestly seems like downplay for the sake of downplay. None of what happened in the comic seems to indicate that the futures were simply prevented from happening by any other force than total annihilation, in fact it directly says they were very specifically "wiped out".

The very definition of wiping something out means " to destroy something completely:"

or in other terms, wipeout also means annihilation or destruction

and nothing else in the story says that it was a chain reaction, only that the direct power of the green lantern directly destroyed all the possible futures but one, and the energy generated by Jaxon and Superman directly countered the ring energy, restoring an infinite amount of timelines.

That plus the fact that alternate timelines being destroyed in pre-crisis DC also means universes are being wiped out, as the timeline that Jaxon is from is directly stated to be a specific Earth (Earth AD) and it is referred to as a timeline in the story. So when Jaxon and Superman are reversing the effects of the destruction of all those timelines, it is very specific in relation to the total annihilation of all Universes that count as future earth timelines as well, which would be an infinite amount.

Saying "timelines are weird that way" isn't really a justification for dismissing a feat, especially since the way timelines work in the story doesn't really contradict how universes/timelines work in the Pre-Crisis DC.

(Also just a note, but i also think Supergirls scaling to Anti-Monitor still counts as a 2-A feat anyway, and i honestly have problems with that AM revision that i feel i should address in another thread.)

 

[Deagonx]

Also just a note, but i also think Supergirls scaling to Anti-Monitor still counts as a 2-A feat anyway, and i honestly have problems with that AM revision that i feel i should address in another thread.)

Well, that has been accepted and applied, so you would have to wait to attempt to revise it again.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

but i also think Supergirls scaling to Anti-Monitor still counts as a 2-A feat anyway

The version of the Anti-Monitor she fought wasn't 2-A yet though

 

[ByAsura]

Still neutral, but that last line doesn't make sense.

Just causing a timeline to cease existing in the first place has also been called 'wiping out' the time line. And 'wipe' from existence isn't an uncommon term for a person whose history has been compromised.

It's probably the most common descriptor, barring erase(d), specifically for erasing histories/people temporally.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

Thing is, Supergirl didn't fought the Anti-Monitor directly. She caught him off guard as he was about to kill Superman and the Anti-Monitor blasted her to death right after she assaulted him, then had to retreat.

So? Still ****** up his armor

 

[Gasper]

So? Still ****** up his armor

2-C feat

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

So? Still ****** up his armor

We already finished this topic.

 

[Jared1111]

Still neutral, but that last line doesn't make sense.

Just causing a timeline to cease existing in the first place has also been called 'wiping out' the time line. And 'wipe' from existence isn't an uncommon term for a person whose history has been compromised.

It's probably the most common descriptor, barring erase(d), specifically for erasing histories/people temporally.

But nothing in the story outright implies that, if anything it outright states that the energy of the rings wiped out the timelines and the energy produced by Jaxon and Superman negated the rings, restoring all timelines and universes.

And how exactly does wiping out all future timelines simultaneously and then restoring them with the energy also simultaneously (because in the story the effects were basically instant) somehow constitute less than 2-A energy? Especially when said alternate timelines are also considered full-on universes in the Pre-Crisis DC cosmology? The ring energy themselves prevented all the timelines except 1 to exist, and the counter energy from Superman reversed all the effects instantly? I just don't understand how stopping infinite universes/timelines from existing from pure energy, to only then be instantly restored once said energy is reversed to be somehow less than 2-A and I'm pretty sure this type of logic doesn't apply to literally any other character or verse.

If its considered an Outlier for now that's fine, but I don't see how you can say the specific feat done in that specific way is somehow less than 2-A given the context and the way Future timelines are presented in the Pre-Crisis DC

 

[Antvasima]

I am neutral regarding whether or not we should scale Pre-Crisis Superman to 2-A, given that his feat with Jaxon was very explicit, but also the only one of that magnitude.

However, Superboy-Prime explicitly displayed an upper limit of Low 2-C in terms of feats, so I do not think that he should scale from Pre-Crisis Superman.

 

[Jared1111]

I personally feel the "possibly 2-A" still fits just fine as it real feat and was done with Superman giving his maximum effort, instead of it being a flat out 2-A for his character. Im pretty sure that's why we agreed on "possibly 2-A" in the first place.

Superboy-Prime is a teenage version of Superman so him not reaching the full power of Superman is understandable even if they can hurt each other in some fights. Besides, he's not exactly the same as Pre-Crisis Superman anyway since he's shown to have immunities and weaknesses that the Earth 1 version of Supes so in my personal opinion it can be kinda hard to directly scale them, but thats just my opinion.

 

[ByAsura]

But nothing in the story outright implies that, if anything it outright states that the energy of the rings wiped out the timelines and the energy produced by Jaxon and Superman negated the rings, restoring all timelines and universes.

I didn't say it did, I just disagree with your insistence that the word wipe out is proof.

And how exactly does wiping out all future timelines simultaneously and then restoring them with the energy also simultaneously (because in the story the effects were basically instant) somehow constitute less than 2-A energy?

See, here's the thing, you're not actually addressing any arguments.

We're saying we don't know if they were simply diverted or destroyed by the Green Lanterns' energies. Thusly, we also don't know if the energy that Superman and Jaxon countering the energy (as they explicitly just countered the energy to do this) restored or simply put the timelines back on track.

This is based on possible futures stemming from Earth. For example, if I time travelled and vaporized the Earth in 1979, Earth's possible futures from that moment onwards would be gone, yes?

There would be other timelines where the Earth wasn't destroyed, or it was done by something else, etc, but that wouldn't be possible futures for this Earth. That'd be a totally divergent probability thread from the past/present or another future altogether. Which they weren't talking about.

 

[LuciferX]

I am neutral regarding whether or not we should scale Pre-Crisis Superman to 2-A, given that his feat with Jaxon was very explicit, but also the only one of that magnitude.t

time trapper arranged smth before it was happened. there is a possibility it could happened through a chain reaction or through some method instead of raw destruction of timelines like deagon said. It's hard to deny it using direct statements. I bet role played by time dimension there. there are so many instances that destruction of creation of multiverse happened via chain reactions in dc.

 

[ByAsura]

It's not really hard to deny, it just relies on something that's unprovable because it isn't even directly stated.

What instances? IIRC, Flashpoint and Infinite Crisis were totally different kinds of chain reaction events.

 

[Jared1111]

I didn't say it did, I just disagree with your insistence that the word wipe out is proof.

Gonna be honest, how often is someone wiping out a timeline (worded or implied like that) usually anything else than total annihilation or erasing a timeline entirely? Because every instance I've seen that somehow refers to wiping out of timelines (which isn't much in Pre-Crisis from what I've researched) but either its used in the way I'm interpreting or the context isn't the exact same as here.

Genuinely curious because this one seems pedantic.

See, here's the thing, you're not actually addressing any arguments here.

We're saying we don't know if they were simply diverted or destroyed by the Green Lanterns' energies. Thusly, we also don't know if the energy that Superman and Jaxon countering the energy (as they explicitly just countered the energy to do this) restored or simply put the timelines back on track.

I'm not addressing that argument because it doesn't make any sense, the Green Lanterns interpretation of it being something that outright destroyed those universes is pretty much the only way you can interpret that feat. Nothing implies they were moved out of existence, they were outright destroyed. How can it only be diverting or putting timelines back to place when the story outright says that all of them are gone, they weren't sent to the void, they just outright don't exist anymore. Hell, the timeline the Legion came from is directly said to just outright not exist anymore.

But fine, lets say for whatever reason I'm wrong and somehow the GL energy only held back all the infinite timelines from existing... wouldn't that still be a 2-A feat? Holding back all the infinite timelines/universes of Earth AD with your power, and the literal instant that power is countered all the timelines instantly return back to normal isn't a chain reaction feat, it's literally about as 2-A as you can get especially on that scale. This isn't just changing the course of history either, because ALL of the timelines were destroyed except one, they weren't all altered, they were outright gone. So either way, its still a 2-A feat and I don't see how that would constitute just putting the timelines back into place when said timelines weren't even there to be put back into place to begin with.

 

[ByAsura]

Gonna be honest, how often is someone wiping out a timeline (worded or implied like that) usually anything else than total annihilation or erasing a timeline entirely?

Tons of times. Other than erase or destroy (in the context of causing a cataclysm that wipes out future worldlines from happening, like in Doctor Who), I've never seen it not called wipe out.

Nothing implies they were moved out of existence, they were outright destroyed.

I didn't claim they were moved out of existence, I said their probability thread was cut. Time was diverted from ever letting them happen in the first place.

Also, nothing implies they were destroyed. All that the Green Lantern said was 'wiping out all of Earth's possible futures but one.' But that doesn't support a destructive event any more than it supports my argument.

How can it only be diverting or putting timelines back to place when the story outright says that all of them are gone, they weren't sent to the void, they just outright don't exist anymore. Hell, the timeline the Legion came from is directly said to just outright not exist anymore.

You do realise that diverting these futures from ever existing in the first place would also make it so that they were completely gone right? Those possibilities wouldn't exist in the first place along that line of history.

But fine, lets say for whatever reason I'm wrong and somehow the GL energy only held back all the infinite timelines from existing... wouldn't that still be a 2-A feat? Holding back all the infinite timelines/universes of Earth AD with your power, and the literal instant that power is countered all the timelines instantly return back to normal isn't a chain reaction feat, it's literally about as 2-A as you can get especially on that scale.

You're totally misinterpreting my argument.

This isn't just changing the course of history either, because ALL of the timelines were destroyed except one, they weren't all altered, they were outright gone.

Which would happen if the possibility thread was cut in the first place. Like Jesus, man.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

However, Superboy-Prime explicitly displayed an upper limit of Low 2-C in terms of feats, so I do not think that he should scale from Pre-Crisis Superman

I'm pretty sure Superboy Prime was weakened at the time.

 

[Jared1111]

Tons of times. Other than erase, I've never seen it not called wipe out.

Can you name a few because my search is showing up blanks, especially ones in which wiping out is done in a way that isn't Low 2-C in nature. Especially given similar context to whats happening here. I also don't know of any instances where someone wiping out an infinite amount of timelines through any means is not considered 2-A and is somehow infinitely less than that.

You do realise that diverting these futures from ever existing in the first place would also make it so that they were completely gone right? Those possibilities wouldn't exist in the first place along that line.

The possibilities literally all came back INSTANTLY after the effect was done, it wasn't possibilities being built up over a period of time, the Green Lantern rings all instantly wiped out all the futures, and the literal moment Jaxon and Superman hit each other all of them were restored and the timelines instantly fixed. This isn't a case like Owl Man destroying the Original Earth 1 and causing a chain reaction that prevented all change throughout time, this was a very sudden and immediate reaction that was instantly reversed by the conflict between Jaxon and Superman.

Like this isn't just preventing one timeline from being created, its completely nullifying the entire Multiverse of future earths, of which there are literally infinite, and that energy needs to be countered for all timelines to pop back into existence like they never left over a period of at worst moments.

 

[LuciferX]

What instances? IIRC, Flashpoint and Infinite Crisis were totally different kinds of chain reaction events.

Doctor Manhattan erased timelines via erasing the possibilities, Darkseid damaged orrey due to a chain reaction. Owl man tried to destroy multiverse by destroying prime earth, like that.

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

I'm pretty sure Superboy Prime was weakened at the time.

if you mean Superboy vs Monarch, yes,, he lost power, the Monarch claims that Prime was starting to run out of fuel

 

[ByAsura]

Can you name a few because my search is showing up blanks, especially ones in which wiping out is done in a way that isn't Low 2-C in nature.

Sure. I'll be a minute.

The possibilities literally all came back INSTANTLY after the effect was done, it wasn't possibilities being built up over a period of time, the Green Lantern rings all instantly wiped out all the futures, and the literal moment Jaxon and Superman hit each other all of them were restored and the timelines instantly fixed.

That's literally because they were in the future where it happened. This is what happens when you're in the future and alter the past. For example, the timeline change happened instantly from the perspective of Neutron in Young Justice.

It's relative to the people who originate from or are in said futures, which is how time travel can even work in the first place.

Like this isn't just preventing one timeline from being created, its completely nullifying the entire Multiverse of future earths, of which there are literally infinite, and that energy needs to be countered for all timelines to pop back into existence like they never left over a period of at worst moments.

Again, this is based on a single probability thread. He erased all the possible futures where the Earth could happen along those lines, not literally every single Earth- containing Earth.

 

[Jared1111]

Doctor Manhattan erased timelines via erasing the possibilities, Darkseid damaged orrey due to a chain reaction. Owl man tried to destroy multiverse by destroying prime earth, like that.

Those instances aren't the same as the one that happens in this story, like I mentioned with Owl Man.

This is an entire Multiverse of Alternate Timelines/Universes being erased, and then instantly being brought back, no chain reaction, after the energy that wiped them out was countered. Jaxon and his like were all put back in place mere moments after the event happened and its shown that everything was restored basically the moment the energy was reversed.

Sure. I'll be a minute.

Appreciate it

That's literally because they were in the future where it happened. This is what happens when you're in the future and alter the past. For example, the timeline change happened instantly from the perspective of Neutron in Young Justice.

It's relative to the people who originate from said futures, which is how time travel can even work in the first place.

Except the comic never implies that it happens over a period of time depending on the viewer though, its shown from Superman and Jaxons perspective to instantly effect them on impact, the Green Lantern also doesn't infer in dialogue that it took place over a period of time or that it was not also instantaneous for him as well. Hell he pretty rapidly informs Superman of the fact like its basically fixed everything instantly.

 

[ByAsura]

Except the comic never implies that it happens over a period of time depending on the viewer though, its shown from Superman and Jaxons perspective to instantly effect them on impact, the Green Lantern also doesn't infer in dialogue that it took place over a period of time or that it was not also instantaneous for him as well. Hell he pretty rapidly informs Superman of the fact like its basically fixed everything instantly.

Cause again, it'd be instantaneous regardless. They were in that future anyway, and the Legion of Superheroes' future still remained a possibility from Superman's perspective. He then got sent back to the past by the clash.

That's how time travel works, and it's also how the mechanics of DC work because time is treated more like something that isn't a concept (rather it's an ocean of possibilities).

If you affect the past, it affects the future immediately from the perspective of the people who are in the future. It would affect everything instantaneously.

What you're saying doesn't make any sense because nobody is going the long way 'round through history here.

Also, Jaxon didn't vanish instantly in 1975. So you're wrong anyway.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

if you mean Superboy vs Monarch, yes,, he lost power, the Monarch claims that Prime was starting to run out of fuel

I was referring to when he was doing the retcon punch.

 

[ByAsura]

Appreciate it

I could find some stuff from Marvel (like Loki describing Kang's fuckery in the MCU) and some more obscure fiction, but I can't find anything specific from DC at all in similar circumstances (that's to say timelines, rather than people).

So I'll take the L here for now.

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

I was referring to when he was doing the retcon punch.

Ah

 

[Jared1111]

If you affect the past, it affects the future immediately from the perspective of the people who are in the future. It would affect everything instantaneously.

That's not even always true from the perspective of DC though. COIE had the Anti Matter wave hit all of existence in all times in one big move, and there was still instances where the past or present versions of earth would be affected at different times and be absorbed entirely before future version of said earth were also consumed. This was happening even before the Monitor fully intervened as well.

Now you could argue that the AM wave works through "hax" and that's why it effects were different to the Green Lanterns energy.

But i'm gonna just concede on this point anyway in case i'm wrong for the later bigger point either way.

Also, Jaxon didn't vanish instantly in 1975. So you're wrong anyway.

Fair enough, but it happened mere moments later so i don't really think it would make much of a difference anyway.

I could find some stuff from Marvel (like Loki describing Kang's fuckery in the MCU) and some more obscure fiction, but I can't find anything specific from DC at all in similar circumstances.

So I'll take the L here for now.

So TBF, i'm gonna argue that unless proven otherwise, my point still stands that wiping out genuinely is used in the context of destruction or elimination of things in the DC Universe. If a timeline is wiped out from what I've seen, there's nothing to imply that Wiping Out Timelines means anything else than the textbook definition of Wiping Out.

For this, i want to argue that in both instances (Probability Thread vs Multiversal Destruction) that both would appear to have the same instant effects so it would be impossible to say which one if happening without context. So i'm gonna invoke THIS in to what would be the right answer

A.) Wiping Out things in the DC Universe when used in every context I can find, means destruction or obliteration, especially in relation to Universes and Timelines, and there's no real evidence up to this point that says it would mean anything else.

B.) The Probability Thread isn't really referenced or referred to in anyway for the story, and there's nothing concrete that is said that would imply that would be concretely the case

So i'm gonna argue that the simplest interpretation, with just the context of the what the story is directly saying, is that the Green Lanterns wiped out all the future Universes and the direct energy of Jaxon and Superman countered the energy and within a very brief period of time after the effects were countered all Universes were reborn and that's what the story was implying. Whether its an outlier or not, fine, but the story itself with its own wording doesn't directly imply a anything else.

Either way, thats the last i'm gonna comment on this til i get off work, so if you do find concrete proof that DC wiping timelines in the same context could mean something that wouldn't allow the feat to be 2-A, then maybe it isn't 2-A.

 

[ByAsura]

So TBF, i'm gonna argue that unless proven otherwise, my point still stands that wiping out genuinely is used in the context of destruction or elimination of things in the DC Universe. If a timeline is wiped out from what I've seen, there's nothing to imply that Wiping Out Timelines means anything else than the textbook definition of Wiping Out.

Can you provide any actual DC statements of wiping out in terms of timeline destruction, by the way?

I already conceded, so I don't give a **** about the rest.

 

[LuciferX]

Those instances aren't the same as the one that happens in this story, like I mentioned with Owl Man.

Never said they're similar, just it could happen without raw destruction of timelines.

This is an entire Multiverse of Alternate Timelines/Universes being erased, and then instantly being brought back, no chain reaction, after the energy that wiped them out was countered. Jaxon and his like were all put back in place mere moments after the event happened and its shown that everything was restored basically the moment the energy was reversed.

"No chain reaction" claim could be right but we don't know enough context about how rings managed to destroy it. You are taking that two statements at face value. I mean how the hell that fight can generate 2-A level energy? Fight was around city level, RIP to the ppl in town if they actually generated that much power.

 

[ByAsura]

Fight was around city level, RIP to the ppl in town if they actually generated that much power.

There were no people for the most part. It was a dead future that the fight erased in the first place during the clash. So there'd be no city to erase.

And we don't consider stuff like this at all because we don't focus on destructive capacity.